What would you buy?

[RiverDave]

Budget is 90 - 120K.. Need a 4th axis for some prototyping work I do.

The machine will be used for prototyping / short run production jobs.

I have talked to a friend of mine that owns a very large CNC shop (8-10 mills, 3 - 4 lathes etc..) He claims HAAS's break all the time, and FADAL's are even worse. He likes a taiwanese made machine called Akira Seiki, says they never give him problems like his HAAS & Fadals..

Another friend has a smaller shop, and he says ever since he bought his Hurco that's all he uses. Claims it just flat kicks ass, and is reliable as well.

So what would you buy? How much are they? New / Used?

The budget will include software & some tooling, so realize the machine price is less than that, and I can't "stretch" the budget anymore then I already have.

RD

[=River Perfection=]

Dave we have had great luck with Mazak. We have bought two machines from them last 3 years. They were our next choice after Hitachi Seki went under. We have had great luck with all our machines we have... Hitcahi Seki's....Mazak's...and even have a Hass mill we use and have never had any trouble with. All our machines we bought brand new direct. Mori's are the best IMO...but the price has to be beneficial to what you are producing. It really depends on what..and how much of what you are making.

[RiverDave]

I just started looking at mazak's this morning.. I've been looking at a hurcoa little. Any thoughts on those?

RD

[=River Perfection=]

I've heard good things about Hurco's. It's really about what your gonna be making Dave and a lot of time for years guys had been so set in programing with a Fanuc control that was a key selling point. U will hear you nightmare stories about almost any machine tool if you look hard enough. I like the Mazak and the Mori Seki's because of weight and I really like the Mazatrol software with the Mazaks. In any machine esp a mill weight is key. The Haas wants to walk out the door when roughing out any stainless.

Watch how much you pay for the Indexer on the Mill. Get the 4th axis interface installed...but sometimes you can find a better deal on a indexer through ebay ect.

[=River Perfection=]

Yeoung Chin makes a very good mill from Taiwan. A friend has two of these right next to each other. They are very bad ass machines. Not my choice but the get some serious work done FAST.


http://www.machinetools007.com/showroom/yeongchin

[SuperDave013]

Bad ass Dave! :thumbsup

is this your first CNC machine? I remember buying my first one. It seemed more stressful then when I bought my house.

You looking new or used? I bought new both times because I "felt" I didn't want someone's junk. But these days I bet there are some real deals on some clean used machines.

I only have lathes so no real input on what to buy.

[randyjet]

I have 2 hurcos cant be beat they are bullett proof have a great user interface and basic programming a 3 year old could do. The 4th axis interface works so good that on simple jobs its quicker and easier to use ultimax then to use Pro-E or Catia. The memory is standard computer memory so you never have to drip programs and you can network it directly into you shop network. Its all pc based control. They are 2000 to 3000 heavier than a Haas so you need a good floor but I have not one negative and have owned 4 total and currently have 2. I use a technara high resolution high torque 4th and do some real exotic machining of super alloys holding tenths of a thousand on postion and size. I have a chilled spindle and I see 0 movement through the day the thing runs all day with no fixture offset compensation for heat. The Haas I had took about .0025 through the day and that was using their thermal growth routine as well.

[REDSKIN]

Well here is my take on it
fadal no way

haas easy to use, great control,decent machine for alum, mild steels, great price vf 4 5 axis for about 110,000

hurco not sure on that one, never ran or seen one

mori badass machine, i have three machines. one is a new 5 axis, funuc control is a must. the other two are 11 years old and will out perform any haas and have never had any problems.

mazak looked at one about a year ago did not like the control, the high end stuff is the shit, not sure one the light duty stuff.

I would go haas or mori myself, pm if you want Dave i will give you a little more of a rundown. dont forget that you will spend 7- 12 grand tooling it

[REDSKIN]

Also dave you will need a cad program, 10-20 grand, or do like most people do and get a boot leged copy.

[RiverDave]

Bad ass Dave! :thumbsup

is this your first CNC machine? I remember buying my first one. It seemed more stressful then when I bought my house.

You looking new or used? I bought new both times because I "felt" I didn't want someone's junk. But these days I bet there are some real deals on some clean used machines.

I only have lathes so no real input on what to buy.

One would think so, but I haven't found any yet. LOL

Also dave you will need a cad program, 10-20 grand, or do like most people do and get a boot leged copy.

We are looking at buying Esprit, or mastercam. Leaning towards Esprit after talking to the Mori dealer last night.

[RiverDave]

I have 2 hurcos cant be beat they are bullett proof have a great user interface and basic programming a 3 year old could do. The 4th axis interface works so good that on simple jobs its quicker and easier to use ultimax then to use Pro-E or Catia. The memory is standard computer memory so you never have to drip programs and you can network it directly into you shop network. Its all pc based control. They are 2000 to 3000 heavier than a Haas so you need a good floor but I have not one negative and have owned 4 total and currently have 2. I use a technara high resolution high torque 4th and do some real exotic machining of super alloys holding tenths of a thousand on postion and size. I have a chilled spindle and I see 0 movement through the day the thing runs all day with no fixture offset compensation for heat. The Haas I had took about .0025 through the day and that was using their thermal growth routine as well.

Randy, I'm very happy to read this post, it pretty much alludes to what I've been told by other Hurco owners.

As it sits, my brother running the #'s claims we need to machines for through put $$$. I believe if we get one machine 4th or 5th axis, it will speed the productivity up enough on prototype parts, that a 5th would end up being more effective and cheaper then 2 machines one 4th / 1 3rd.

Either way, it will be an interesting learning curve talking to some of the reps.

RD

[randyjet]

The really nice part is the Hurco Package for programming it is faster than any cam package in the world and anyone can program with it you can import iges and machine right to the IGES as well. For the 4th axis stuff it is really easy no inverse time issues it figures all this for you and you can program a 4 axis slot in 30 seconds. I never used a 4th much until I got the Hurco then I used it for everthing even multiple part setup on ones and twos. Its quick and easy and the control takes all the guess work out of it good verification too you can prerun and zoom in and measure tool clearance etc. I found the interface with Pro-Man to be good to I can make it do anything I did those GO-PED cylinders and did all the porting on the 4th it was no problem. Plus It cuts exotics very well I did a Hastalloy Forging that I was running 1.0 dia carbide cutters 9.0 inches long and holding plus or minus .001 on the id bore the walls on this part were .090 x 10.0 with an ID around 8.0 it looked like a hat. I know of no other machine that rigid fo the money to do a job like that. I was really happy when I shipped the 3 parts got $20,000 each for the machining and seemed like a lot but the stress wasn't worth it. I had to drill and tap 6 1/4-28 x 1.0 in the bottom reaching in 10.0 ever hear Hastalloy tap ::::the cracking an poping will scare the hell out of you; never broke a tap though.

[Racey]

The really nice part is the Hurco Package for programming it is faster than any cam package in the world and anyone can program with it you can import iges and machine right to the IGES as well. For the 4th axis stuff it is really easy no inverse time issues it figures all this for you and you can program a 4 axis slot in 30 seconds. I never used a 4th much until I got the Hurco then I used it for everthing even multiple part setup on ones and twos. Its quick and easy and the control takes all the guess work out of it good verification too you can prerun and zoom in and measure tool clearance etc. I found the interface with Pro-Man to be good to I can make it do anything I did those GO-PED cylinders and did all the porting on the 4th it was no problem. Plus It cuts exotics very well I did a Hastalloy Forging that I was running 1.0 dia carbide cutters 9.0 inches long and holding plus or minus .001 on the id bore the walls on this part were .090 x 10.0 with an ID around 8.0 it looked like a hat. I know of no other machine that rigid fo the money to do a job like that. I was really happy when I shipped the 3 parts got $20,000 each for the machining and seemed like a lot but the stress wasn't worth it. I had to drill and tap 6 1/4-28 x 1.0 in the bottom reaching in 10.0 ever hear Hastalloy tap ::::the cracking an poping will scare the hell out of you; never broke a tap though.

Sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it.....

By the way, great thread, i like hearing everyone's take on the equipment.

[REDSKIN]

If its not alum i thread mill everything. Buying taps suck, and if they break the part is junk.

[SuperDave013]

We are looking at buying Esprit, or mastercam. Leaning towards Esprit after talking to the Mori dealer last night.

when I was asking about software packages a wise man (guy with about 20 cnc machines) pushed Mastercam. He said he liked and uses something else but everyone you hire will already know Mastercam. His thinking was you're doing the set up and programming now but once you get a shop full of machines you'll rarely touch them.

[RiverDave]

Hurco and Morisieki came by the shop today..

That conversational programming on the new Hurco's if fuckin bad ass. My wife could literally go out back and make a part in minutes. I'll admit they are alot more pricey then I was originally thinking. I don't have my notes on me, but it's about 80-85K for the small VMX, with a 4th and well equipped. Don't quote me on that, we looked at so many options today, my head is still spinning.


The Moriseiki rep showed up, and it became pretty clear pretty fast.. We can't afford a new Mori. LOL I will say though that if my budget was even a little bigger we'd be stretching it, and buying a new Mori. The Rep didn't show up with fancy lap tops and demo's.. We are talking to him about a 5 year old 30 inch machine with a full 4th, for 85K.

I still have plenty of reps to talk to after the holidays and a lot to learn. We spent 3 hours takling with the Hurco rep, and 4 talking to the Mori rep.. (got nothing done today for normal work)

RD

[=River Perfection=]

Dave good luck with your choice. PM me or give me a call if u want to shoot the shit about some diff machine options...I might be able to help you out a bit.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Also dave you will need a cad program, 10-20 grand, or do like most people do and get a boot leged copy.

If anyone needs a hook up on that....



...well I'm just sayin.;)

[RiverDave]

Any thoughts on DMG?

RD

[randyjet]

Wished I wouldn't hae sold my 4020 due to lack of space I am not into machining so much too bad I let it go for around 35 I think I paid 140 for it when I bought it but couldnt seem to give it away and was tired of paying storage. I love that Ultimax there is nothing in the world as easy and it works and you can do so much with it. I have been programming 4 and 5 axis since 81 and I have never seen something that works so good and so easy for multiax work. I can tell you I did alot of machining with my Hurcos and never had a break down or spindle issue. I bought the High speed spindles and the chiller and they came out and spent a week setting up and cycling the thing I couldnt believe how smoothe and quiet it was. All this transitions into your cutting and feedrates and you can run 30% to 70% more then what you would on a Haas. I used to run these Kenemetal endmills on mine and would take a 1.o x 1.0 deep in Stainless and be running like 60 ipm and this guy next to me tried on his haas and the vibration was terrible broke the inserts.

[REDSKIN]

Any thoughts on DMG?

RD

nice german machines, funky control, check into who repairs them. I looked @ them @ westec last year they were giving them away.

I will never buy a machine without a funuc control, except maybe a haas.

[RiverDave]

Wished I wouldn't hae sold my 4020 due to lack of space I am not into machining so much too bad I let it go for around 35 I think I paid 140 for it when I bought it but couldnt seem to give it away and was tired of paying storage. I love that Ultimax there is nothing in the world as easy and it works and you can do so much with it. I have been programming 4 and 5 axis since 81 and I have never seen something that works so good and so easy for multiax work. I can tell you I did alot of machining with my Hurcos and never had a break down or spindle issue. I bought the High speed spindles and the chiller and they came out and spent a week setting up and cycling the thing I couldnt believe how smoothe and quiet it was. All this transitions into your cutting and feedrates and you can run 30% to 70% more then what you would on a Haas. I used to run these Kenemetal endmills on mine and would take a 1.o x 1.0 deep in Stainless and be running like 60 ipm and this guy next to me tried on his haas and the vibration was terrible broke the inserts.

Good to know Randy.. :) Thanks.

RD

[RiverDave]

nice german machines, funky control, check into who repairs them. I looked @ them @ westec last year they were giving them away.

I will never buy a machine without a funuc control, except maybe a haas.

I put in a request on their website for information, and haven't heard anything back from them.. LOL

RD

[REDSKIN]

Dave, buy something already. There is a reason haas sells 300-400 machine's a month (use to be 1000). Its a good machine for the buck very hard to beat.

[RiverDave]

Dave, buy something already. There is a reason haas sells 300-400 machine's a month (use to be 1000). Its a good machine for the buck very hard to beat.

I'm workin on it RedSkin.. There are a couple of outside influences that I'm waiting on to see which direction I'm going to end up going. Long story short we are going to have a meeting with the engineering firms main customer in middle to late Jan.

If they decide to extent the contract, then I'd be willing to spend a lot more on a machine, as it takes quite a bit of overhead off of me for shop expenses etc..

If they decide not too, then odds are I'm going to move my shop right next door, to a smaller shop to reduce overhead (I don't need a shop this big for my biz / boats etc..) and would be spending less, and looking more at used machines, or a couple of used Haas's etc..

On that note though the Haas rep is coming by this morning at 10:00 to talk to us about new options, and used options etc..

RD

[SuperDave013]

Dave, speaking of overhead and expenses .....

Have you talked to anyone other then the sales guys about real world costs on getting a machine on your floor running. Sales guys told me don't worry, won't be to bad, bla bla. I tried to figure the cost as close as I could myself too. But never had done it before I grossly under estimated things.

A 50K machine turned into 90K spent pretty quick for me. Most of that extra stuff was out of pocket as I didn't want to roll it into the finance plan.
Will you need a transformer? I did for one of mine and was shocked at how much they cost. I got it as my old shops cost and I still fell over.
I ran my own conduit, set the disconnect and did the wiring myself. It's a pretty short run but still cost more then I expected.
Blaser screw machine oil is around 130 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket. I needed 45 gallons.
Tooling is never ending and I'm glad it was just lathes with small live tools. I love buying tooling but to get started everything was adding up. I expect to see a "Holy fuck this is getting out of control" thread about tooling from you. lol



one quick blip a wise man (with a big cnc shop) told me and I'll pass along.

Don't ever expect someone else to finance your dreams. Don't ever buy a machine on promised work. Only buy what you can pay for your own bad self.

Now that was just what I did not want to hear as like you I was trying everything I could to get the better machine. (wanted the sub spindle)
At the same time a guy Froggy introduced me to was telling me he would give me so much work I would have to buy another machine right away. Said it was simple stuff that ties up their equipment. Wow, I liked the sound of that. I know he sends overflow stuff to the shop next door and he said there was plenty for me. When I got the machine on the floor and his tune had changed. He comes over all the time and buys stuff but never has sent me any work. The first guy was right. He had been there before! If for any reason a contract gets canceled (and they do all the time) you're still holding the bag on a fat machine payment. If I got just one bite from every carrot that people dangled in front of me I won't have to work at all. (I'm so jadded now I'll tell 'em I don't eat carrots before the danglin starts)

Ok, ramble is over. Buy something already!! :D

[RiverDave]

Dave, speaking of overhead and expenses .....

Have you talked to anyone other then the sales guys about real world costs on getting a machine on your floor running. Sales guys told me don't worry, won't be to bad, bla bla. I tried to figure the cost as close as I could myself too. But never had done it before I grossly under estimated things.

A 50K machine turned into 90K spent pretty quick for me. Most of that extra stuff was out of pocket as I didn't want to roll it into the finance plan.
Will you need a transformer? I did for one of mine and was shocked at how much they cost. I got it as my old shops cost and I still fell over.
I ran my own conduit, set the disconnect and did the wiring myself. It's a pretty short run but still cost more then I expected.
Blaser screw machine oil is around 130 bucks for a 5 gallon bucket. I needed 45 gallons.
Tooling is never ending and I'm glad it was just lathes with small live tools. I love buying tooling but to get started everything was adding up. I expect to see a "Holy fuck this is getting out of control" thread about tooling from you. lol



one quick blip a wise man (with a big cnc shop) told me and I'll pass along.

Don't ever expect someone else to finance your dreams. Don't ever buy a machine on promised work. Only buy what you can pay for your own bad self.

Now that was just what I did not want to hear as like you I was trying everything I could to get the better machine. (wanted the sub spindle)
At the same time a guy Froggy introduced me to was telling me he would give me so much work I would have to buy another machine right away. Said it was simple stuff that ties up their equipment. Wow, I liked the sound of that. I know he sends overflow stuff to the shop next door and he said there was plenty for me. When I got the machine on the floor and his tune had changed. He comes over all the time and buys stuff but never has sent me any work. The first guy was right. He had been there before! If for any reason a contract gets canceled (and they do all the time) you're still holding the bag on a fat machine payment. If I got just one bite from every carrot that people dangled in front of me I won't have to work at all. (I'm so jadded now I'll tell 'em I don't eat carrots before the danglin starts)

Ok, ramble is over. Buy something already!! :D

Dave I've been figuring some astronomical $$$ into tooling, and fixturing. Buying all Chick work holding fixtures etc.. Having run manual machines, I know the machine is the cheap part.. ;) I only expect CNC to be more $$$ % wise, as they'll run through cutters faster etc..

We figured 12K for a "starter" pkg on tooling. (not work holding)

I gotta be honest, in looking at the all the #'s, this isn't really penciling out in my favor here.. I'm assuming the #'s I have are pretty conservative though.
RD

[SuperDave013]

you'll find the cutters last longer. Unlike the hand machine you'll be running them at the correct feeds.

a few other costs I just though of.

Insurance, yup I had to add both machines
Frieght, mine came from chatsworth. Glad it wasn't PA or something
Riggers to off load and set in my shop. don't skimp there!
sales tax, I knew it was coming but dang
Orange County Assessor stuck their hand out too. <- I hate those guys :grumble:

[SuperDave013]

I gotta be honest, in looking at the all the #'s, this isn't really penciling out in my favor here.. I'm assuming the #'s I have are pretty conservative though.
RD

wait 'till you make it all happen and some bub wants you to run parts for $0.70 each. :p

[wsuwrhr]

I know you asked for my .02, but after reading some of the replies, just call me if you are really interested in what I think.

I am not going to jump into this deal.

Sorry about that.

Does this mean I am going to get banned?

Brian

[wsuwrhr]

nice german machines, funky control, check into who repairs them. I looked @ them @ westec last year they were giving them away.

I will never buy a machine without a funuc control, except maybe a haas.

I am sure this is what you meant,

HAAS's control is essentially a Fanuc.

[REDSKIN]

I am sure this is what you meant,

HAAS's control is essentially a Fanuc.

Haas pretty much copied it and added more great features, I like it better the funuc. Much faster to set up a machine with a haas control.:thumbsup

[wsuwrhr]

Haas pretty much copied it and added more great features, I like it better the funuc. Much faster to set up a machine with a haas control.:thumbsup

In my opinion,

I don't know about that. Unless you are using a 3,6 or OT control, or something like that.

I think it is the same/same.

FANUC and HAAS are the same but just different, each have their own strengths and downfalls.

[Magic28]

So what did you end up buying Dave ?

[paradise]

A website would be my guess ;)
________
Accidental Death And Dismemberment Insurance Dicussion (http://www.insurance-forums.org/accidental-death-dismemberment-insurance/)

[SuperDave013]

So what did you end up buying Dave ?

yeah, what did you get???

[RiverDave]

I ended up getting a hefty shop payment each month. I ended up staying where I'm at instead of moving like I probably should have.. :(

Things have been "tight" since I started this thread, but now we are back on track. All things being equal I think I would like to buy a Hurco. My only concern is if it breaks, or support. I've called their main # the last 2 days, and both times it said it was after hours.. I'm assuming it's going to the office back east, but it also has this # listed for their los angeles facility which concerns me a bit. I'm hoping to place the order for it, in the next couple weeks.

The machine I like is this VMX 24. It's smaller, but 95% of the stuff I do will fit in my hand, and I rarely if ever do a part bigger then 24 inches. The specs on this thing make it sound like a little hot rod, compared to most other machines.

http://www.hurco.com/USA/Products/Machining_Centers/Vertical/VMX_Series/Pages/VMX%2024%20Machining%20Center.aspx

but I am also looking at the VM series if the price of the software / fixturing and the 4th axis drives the VMX out of my budget..

http://www.hurco.com/USA/Products/Machining_Centers/Vertical/VM_Series/Pages/VM10.aspx

RD

[CNC]

I own FADAL's 4020's and 6030's I cut mostly 3d models and molds. I run the $hit out of them...they live a 10000rpm and used to run around the clock (biz is slower). I haven't had a break down in years. Fadal is out of business
so I don't know what I'd buy next time. I know several shops that have both Fadal and Haas, they prefer Haas.....Haas always seem a lot lighter w/their linear guide ways vs Fadals solid box ways.