2014 Parker Enduro 336 Rules

Rules posted.

Thank you

Those look awesome! I cannot wait! Whomever came up with these rules
deserves a cocktail and a cigar. Good job guys!

We will see you all in the ring ...

Don't forget your whip ...

No True Tunnel Outboards allowed?

I read the rules is the above statement correct?

Thanks for your anticipated response.

KAP

KAP said:

No True Tunnel Outboards allowed?

I read the rules is the above statement correct?

Thanks for your anticipated response.

KAP

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That is correct KAP. I'm not sure why they put that in the rules (I know there is a reason).. Personally I don't ever see a 21 Skater or the like running with an STV or something of that nature on a course like this.. But they have it in there (that rule has been around for a long time)

RD

KAP said:

No True Tunnel Outboards allowed?

I read the rules is the above statement correct?

Thanks for your anticipated response.

KAP

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Div G allows true tunnels, but not OB's. The Champ boats would show up and run away with the whole thing.

RiverDave said:

That is correct KAP. I'm not sure why they put that in the rules (I know there is a reason).. Personally I don't ever see a 21 Skater or the like running with an STV or something of that nature on a course like this.. But they have it in there (that rule has been around for a long time)
RD

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Hi Dave:

There are true tunnels that will smoke an STV... which are not 21 Skaters and they are open cockpit production boats. I won't say what brand but I know of at least two manufacturers.

STV_Keith said:

Div G allows true tunnels, but not OB's. The Champ boats would show up and run away with the whole thing.

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Thanks for the commentary Keith as I know your an advocate for the OB guys.

My thought is...Champ boats are enclosed canopy boats thus not allowed. In addition, most Champ hulls are not production boats. Whereas your STV, TRICKS etc...are production boats.

Mr. Ron Hill talked about allowing true tunnel production boats last year I believe with nose cone to be level with bottom and stock engines.

I would like to see an unlimited class which included true tunnel outboards. The rules would limit to 24 foot and under and they must be production boats only no canopy or enclosed cockpit boats. Namely, no race boats open cockpit boats of the production variety.

That's what I thought namely No True Tunnels with Outboards.

After Thought:

"Fastest Lap in the West"

Maybe even a Calcutta style race off...Where you have guys looking to lay down the fastest lap time in an unlimited class. Then it comes down to driving and set-up.

I plan on being there again this year to support the cause.

KAP said:

Hi Dave:

There are true tunnels that will smoke an STV... which are not 21 Skaters and they are open cockpit production boats. I won't say what brand but I know of at least two manufacturers.



Thanks for the commentary Keith as I know your an advocate for the OB guys.

My thought is...Champ boats are enclosed canopy boats thus not allowed. In addition, most Champ hulls are not production boats. Whereas your STV, TRICKS etc...are production boats.

Mr. Ron Hill talked about allowing true tunnel production boats last year I believe with nose cone to be level with bottom and stock engines.

I would like to see an unlimited class which included true tunnel outboards. The rules would limit to 24 foot and under and they must be production boats only no canopy or enclosed cockpit boats. Namely, no race boats open cockpit boats of the production variety.

That's what I thought namely No True Tunnels with Outboards.

After Thought:

"Fastest Lap in the West"

Maybe even a Calcutta style race off...Where you have guys looking to lay down the fastest lap time in an unlimited class. Then it comes down to driving and set-up.

I plan on being there again this year to support the cause.

Click to expand...

I think we all like to run 23 Argo's a buck twenty :skull

KAP said:

Hi Dave:

There are true tunnels that will smoke an STV... which are not 21 Skaters and they are open cockpit production boats. I won't say what brand but I know of at least two manufacturers.

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Well, an Argo is one:



Lanier builds the Fast Cat.

KAP said:

Mr. Ron Hill talked about allowing true tunnel production boats last year I believe with nose cone to be level with bottom and stock engines.

I would like to see an unlimited class which included true tunnel outboards. The rules would limit to 24 foot and under and they must be production boats only no canopy or enclosed cockpit boats. Namely, no race boats open cockpit boats of the production variety.

That's what I thought namely No True Tunnels with Outboards.

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It may have been geared directly at Darcy's 22 Talon with twin 2.5's. I have ready that Darcy asked to run last year in Div 5 or 6 and was told no.

Hello Steve and Keith:

Yeah Argo and Lanier build fast boats. The Argo I think is much faster than the Lanier. But I am guessing as to the Lanier because I don't know what their top speed numbers are. The Lanier would probably handle the chop of traffic better. However the course is really long so you don't have too much rough water to worry about.

Now a baby Doug Wright 24ft.... with twin 200XSROS motors and then you have rough water boat, that can turn and speed 125 easy.

Rules are rules...:skull!

Last numbers I heard were mid 120's with the Lanier and a 300xs. Pretty sure the motor is way high though.

Just for the record,Micheal Dixon ran 151mph in an STV with a tiny little 2.5,and this was a few years back when.
Some of these numbers seem questionable around here.I know Joe Abeleras old Argo is in the 120s and that is very impressive for its size!!
carry on

One of these days I'm going to drag my Ally down there, have Brian build me a tank, and race the son of a bitch...anyone drive the entire race by themself or is that against the rules too?

Wicky said:

One of these days I'm going to drag my Ally down there, have Brian build me a tank, and race the son of a bitch...anyone drive the entire race by themself or is that against the rules too?

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Your Allison would do well

Yes you can drive the entire race, a few have iron maned the 9 hr :champagne:

Earlier this year we read that the green motors were going to get some help. I imagined they were going to let us add bullets to our gearcases, low water pick ups and do away with the motor height rule. Things to make our boats safer and more stable with less blow out issues. You know, common sense things.
We got just the opposite. What we got just 6 weeks before the race are rule changes that allow the elite few with ECM access to tune after they remove all the intake air flow restictions that control noise and make the engine Green in the first place.

New changes allow the Green motors to reprogram the ECM for more fuel. Modify the throttle body and cowling for more air flow and intake noise.
Lightened flywheels too. Basically remove the Green parts of engine.

What happened to must be Stock?

This is helping who? That would be anyone with "unobtainable to the general public" computer software to get in the stock ECM.
Thought we had a "modified" class already?

Congrats on ruining the only class that allowed an average Guy to show up with a reliable stock motor on pump gas and be competitive.
If your trying to grow grass roots racing at this event, you just took a huge step backwards.

SG

AzDesertRacer said:

Earlier this year we read that the green motors were going to get some help. I imagined they were going to let us add bullets to our gearcases, low water pick ups and do away with the motor height rule. Things to make our boats safer and more stable with less blow out issues. You know, common sense things.
We got just the opposite. What we got just 6 weeks before the race are rule changes that allow the elite few with ECM access to tune after they remove all the intake air flow restictions that control noise and make the engine Green in the first place.

New changes allow the Green motors to reprogram the ECM for more fuel. Modify the throttle body and cowling for more air flow and intake noise.
Lightened flywheels too. Basically remove the Green parts of engine.

What happened to must be Stock?

This is helping who? That would be anyone with "unobtainable to the general public" computer software to get in the stock ECM.
Thought we had a "modified" class already?

Congrats on ruining the only class that allowed an average Guy to show up with a reliable stock motor on pump gas and be competitive.
If your trying to grow grass roots racing at this event, you just took a huge step backwards.

SG

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He apparently ignored it. I have received no response. So I called him..."The mail box is full" ...

You will also notice that ALL of your propellers will not work 1/2 inch below the bottom. We have tested, we know. So, not only do you need to go buy all the hot rod stuff, but you need to dump a few additional grand on lower pitched props you will never use after the race. The rules are set in stone.

I told Schatz thanks for the hop up stuff, but we are better off stock ...and 5k better off financially.

Face the facts here, either you stay stock and 1/2 down, or race guys that spend the big bucks. No exceptions.

Keep in mind, the "Green Class" also includes any boat that weighs 1500 lbs and can run a race 2.5 ... This is considered "Green" ? The 1500 lb boat should be class 6 or "F". In other words, a green boat, let's say a 21' Daytona with a 300xs, doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell keeping up with a 1500 lb boat with a 2.5.

A Daytona 21' weighs in at 2000 lbs...do the math, you lost before you entered...this has also been ignored, for years....

Now we can't adjust the rules due to the fact he was 9 months delinquent in posting them. The rules were to be posted January 1st, 2014.

AzDesertRacer said:

Earlier this year we read that the green motors were going to get some help. I imagined they were going to let us add bullets to our gearcases, low water pick ups and do away with the motor height rule. Things to make our boats safer and more stable with less blow out issues. You know, common sense things.
We got just the opposite. What we got just 6 weeks before the race are rule changes that allow the elite few with ECM access to tune after they remove all the intake air flow restictions that control noise and make the engine Green in the first place.

New changes allow the Green motors to reprogram the ECM for more fuel. Modify the throttle body and cowling for more air flow and intake noise.
Lightened flywheels too. Basically remove the Green parts of engine.

What happened to must be Stock?

This is helping who? That would be anyone with "unobtainable to the general public" computer software to get in the stock ECM.
Thought we had a "modified" class already?

Congrats on ruining the only class that allowed an average Guy to show up with a reliable stock motor on pump gas and be competitive.
If your trying to grow grass roots racing at this event, you just took a huge step backwards.

SG

Click to expand...

Excellent post !

The Parker race has several goals one of them being "leave no boat behind" and grow the race.

Our team started in 2009 with a goal of a Green Class for the backyard boater using a stock late model motor. So we went to the rules meetings :thumbup:

We worked on the rules and started the green class with the engine 1" up and 1650#s min #
The 2.5 engine 1" down.

I agree with you on the gear case mods, Yamaha and Evinrude makes excellent motors that could benefit from low water pick ups and hydra dynamic re shaping for better blow out protection while running surfacing propellers

I don't have a problem with a Mercury ecu re program only, in rough water its better off to hit a soft rev limiter (over fuel) than have your power chopped at max speed with a non ratcheting gear case.

Our team believes in safety first and that starts with boat control :champagne:

well that's 2 classes he has messed up!!!! im going to sit on the dock this year and watch 20 boats (max) run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! enjoy the race boys and girls, oh and all the people at pirates cove enjoy seeing a boat turn every 4 minutes

I hope you only see a boat every 4 minutes. That would mean we are doing well. :thumbup:

poundsand said:

well that's 2 classes he has messed up!!!! im going to sit on the dock this year and watch 20 boats (max) run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! enjoy the race boys and girls, oh and all the people at pirates cove enjoy seeing a boat turn every 4 minutes

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You know I'm not really one to get into the arguments of all the rules etc.. But being that there is qualifying times, and those qualifying times set the handicaps for the race and classes.. it more or less turns it into a bracket race to some degree. I'm not sure why it would matter if a boat went a little faster or slower, just so long as it finishes.

I understand the one caveat to that is the handicap times aren't set on an individual boat basis.. But I would have to imagine if you have 10 boats in a class, and 8 of them are running 11:00 and one is 10:30, and the last is running 9 minute laps.. I'm sure there would be some adjustment made their to accommodate parity. Scott's ultimately the guy for those conversations, and personally I'd like to ditch the handicap thing all together, but for now this is in fact what the people wanted?

FYI, last years race (which we are expecting considerably more entries) was never boring to watch.

RD

26 boats started last year... check your official results! Im pretty sure there will not be 10 boats in any class, if there is a class that big I would be shocked!!!!!!!!!! 26 boats on a 12 mile course is boring and that was the start before breakdowns took place, just my opinion which means nothing, its just an observation from the beach, there is no way I could build a boat to finish that race

poundsand said:

26 boats started last year... check your official results! Im pretty sure there will not be 10 boats in any class, if there is a class that big I would be shocked!!!!!!!!!! 26 boats on a 12 mile course is boring and that was the start before breakdowns took place, just my opinion which means nothing, its just an observation from the beach, there is no way I could build a boat to finish that race

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poundsand, actually I'm not sure how many boats will be or won't be in each class.. I can tell you that I know of at least 5 GN style boats that are running, plus the Schiada's etc... Which would put that class around 8. I'm pretty sure anybody with a COR boat will be racing the Enduro. They had some weird rule changes to their racing series that nobody wants to adhere too, so I know a lot of those guys are bringing their boats because we don't have the same rules as the short course deal.

I hope to see you out there either as a spectator or a team.

RD

I am NOT an expert on any of this, just an observer. Can anyone explain why the outboard boats have to run 1/2" BELOW ?? I don't own an outboard but get to ride in a very nice Stoker with a 300XS on it and that boat runs so much better when the motor is above, not below. I'm probably just confused?

lake p.a.l. said:

I am NOT an expert on any of this, just an observer. Can anyone explain why the outboard boats have to run 1/2" BELOW ?? I don't own an outboard but get to ride in a very nice Stoker with a 300XS on it and that boat runs so much better when the motor is above, not below. I'm probably just confused?

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Putting the motor down slows the o/b boats approx 20%

They don't want outboards running down the unlimited GN's

BigSteve said:

Putting the motor down slows the o/b boats approx 20%

They don't want outboards running down the unlimited GN's

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I think it actually has more to do with slowing the boats down so drivers don't kill themselves, and when you start raising X's to high they lose some amount of turning abilities.

You guys keep complaining that we corked the O/B's and if we would uncork em you could run all these guys down.. all the while forgetting that we corked the Nordic as well. If we let Nordic run their boat for what it's worth the boat would be running low 140's down the straights, and 90's through the turns.. Which would then open up the door to the Champ boats coming back, and so on and so on..

More or less the APBA doesn't really want anybody running faster then 115 in this race.. (where that number comes from I don't know, but that's what was told to me when I was trying to do the rules on my own)

RD

BigSteve said:

Putting the motor down slows the o/b boats approx 20%

They don't want outboards running down the unlimited GN's

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Pretty much what I figured. So they don't want War Canoe to win again?? That's complete bullshit

lake p.a.l. said:

Pretty much what I figured. So they don't want War Canoe to win again?? That's complete bullshit

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Why on any level would you think I would care who wins?

RD

RiverDave said:

I think it actually has more to do with slowing the boats down so drivers don't kill themselves, and when you start raising X's to high they lose some amount of cornering

More or less the APBA doesn't really want anybody running faster then 115 in this race.. (where that number comes from I don't know, but that's what was told to me when I was trying to do the rules on my own)

RD

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RD, I agree safety must be first :champagne:

Set up on a outboard is critical to get a boat to work effortlessly !
The real key is finding the sweet spot of set back, motor height and prop to carry the boat level
Rather than fighting the boat listen to what it wants to make it work and no two boats are the same :skull

I like to run neutral to slight negative trim at full speed.
So if you need to use power to drive thru a rough section flat out you keep the nose down

Running below the pad cause weird handling issues from over trimming in a effort to free up the boat
and can pop the nose up and kite in rough water, like what happened in "11 to the 555 boat

RD, I agree on over jacking the engine and the cornering really suffers

A good handling outboard with the big O/B is generally up a over a 1"- 1 3/4"

I run the tight sloughs in the Delta all the time,we have found the best handling is 1" up and less set back
and yes greater handling comes with a 10% loss in speed. Its my daily driver set up.

In general it is safer to go faster in a better handling boat than try to over drive a poor handling boat with the same power :rolleyes

Dave were coming for fun and a good time with friends and try and run very consistant #s all day on our dial in #

Looking forward to a good time

So unlimited big dogs are limited.
GN are opened up, but upset over it.
Green Outboards are upset.
2 liter guys (last year's winner no less) are running the same
rules.

Everyone being upset sounds like equality!

Crazyhippy said:

So unlimited big dogs are limited.
GN are opened up, but upset over it.
Green Outboards are upset.
2 liter guys (last year's winner no less) are running the same
rules.

Everyone being upset sounds like equality!

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Pretty much the same story every year.

RiverDave said:

I think it actually has more to do with slowing the boats down so drivers don't kill themselves, and when you start raising X's to high they lose some amount of turning abilities.

You guys keep complaining that we corked the O/B's and if we would uncork em you could run all these guys down.. all the while forgetting that we corked the Nordic as well. If we let Nordic run their boat for what it's worth the boat would be running low 140's down the straights, and 90's through the turns.. Which would then open up the door to the Champ boats coming back, and so on and so on..

More or less the APBA doesn't really want anybody running faster then 115 in this race.. (where that number comes from I don't know, but that's what was told to me when I was trying to do the rules on my own)

RD

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Perfect, we are at 113MPH :thumbup:

420HOA said:

Perfect, we are at 113MPH :thumbup:

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We would love to meet you on an open straight !!

Unfortunately, we have been neutered by the powers that be... Oh well, we will give the jet boats hell.

Visit us in the Delta ... We won't have our butt plug in.

lake p.a.l. said:

I am NOT an expert on any of this, just an observer. Can anyone explain why the outboard boats have to run 1/2" BELOW ?? I don't own an outboard but get to ride in a very nice Stoker with a 300XS on it and that boat runs so much better when the motor is above, not below. I'm probably just confused?

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Class/Div 2 boats are limited to 1" below the bottom for the centerline of the propshaft. This slows the boats down and theoretically increases safety. The first year or two we ran the enduro in this class, I would have disagreed as it really upsets a boat that's designed to run 1"+ above the bottom at 1" below the bottom. Over the years, Kevin (boat owner) made modifications to the bottom that made it MUCH better for the speeds we are running and propshaft height we are limited to.

That said, IIRC, 5/8" below the bottom was 4mph faster than 1" below...so that 3/8" equates to 4mph with no other changes. By comparison, on my STV, I run the C/L of the propshaft 1-1/4" above the bottom.

Everyone in our class/division is running under the same set of rules. We are racing them. The overall (while a nice afterthought) is not our goal...a class/division win is.

STV_Keith said:

Class/Div 2 boats are limited to 1" below the bottom for the centerline of the propshaft. This slows the boats down and theoretically increases safety. The first year or two we ran the enduro in this class, I would have disagreed as it really upsets a boat that's designed to run 1"+ above the bottom at 1" below the bottom. Over the years, Kevin (boat owner) made modifications to the bottom that made it MUCH better for the speeds we are running and propshaft height we are limited to.

That said, IIRC, 5/8" below the bottom was 4mph faster than 1" below...so that 3/8" equates to 4mph with no other changes. By comparison, on my STV, I run the C/L of the propshaft 1-1/4" above the bottom.

Everyone in our class/division is running under the same set of rules. We are racing them. The overall (while a nice afterthought) is not our goal...a class/division win is.

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Your boat looks better every season, good luck on your goal of a class win :thumbup:
Your team put a good ride together

I would like to run the Canoe a 1 " up in the Unlimited GN class.

It looks like its going to be a slug fest and we really like to brawl with the best and push a blistering pace :champagne:

That's why we come to the Parker race, for real die hard boaters, to roll with one weekend a year.

We would really like to showcase the War Canoe and run non stop 336 miles in under 3hrs 36 min from the back

Last year we also needed a single event membership to APBA, we did that on qualifying day. Can those forms be obtained from Scott/APBA ahead of time? Sure would help the line move faster! maybe charge us a little extra to get it done early

First off i enjoyed the race via live stream and i thank you all for providing that for us that cannot be there. One draw back is that there is not very much explaining of events that are going on. So i have a question. Does speed count on the first lap count? Seeing how the boats start beyond the start/finish line and are not yet at top speed their first lap cannot be timed properly. So in effect a guy could get a good start and really let it all hang out on the first lap to get a nice comfortable lead then slow down and settle into a predeterminded lap time knowing that the rest of the class cannot catch up without being penalized for going to fast. I did not see this happen but it seems that it could.

At this years enduro we found that ramp timers were handing out times, rounded apparently to the minute shown on a digital watch, no seconds! we were given a time at our second pit 2 0 1 meaning 2:01 i guess. didn't think much of it till we tried to launch at the in ramp with our own accounting of when to go. exactly 10 minutes from the time we touched to boat when loading. were told by ramp official if we went we would be penalized, and do not proceed till he said so. lots of confusion and wasted time till we figured out what was going on. in a game where every seconds counts. we count lap times and get pretty excited when just a few seconds a lap are saved. in a system like this where rounding is practiced, your time could work in your favor or against you by 59 seconds on each end. anyone else encounter this? and more importantly was i asleep at the drivers meeting and miss it?

GETBOATS said:

At this years enduro we found that ramp timers were handing out times, rounded apparently to the minute shown on a digital watch, no seconds! we were given a time at our second pit 2 0 1 meaning 2:01 i guess. didn't think much of it till we tried to launch at the in ramp with our own accounting of when to go. exactly 10 minutes from the time we touched to boat when loading. were told by ramp official if we went we would be penalized, and do not proceed till he said so. lots of confusion and wasted time till we figured out what was going on. in a game where every seconds counts. we count lap times and get pretty excited when just a few seconds a lap are saved. in a system like this where rounding is practiced, your time could work in your favor or against you by 59 seconds on each end. anyone else encounter this? and more importantly was i asleep at the drivers meeting and miss it?

Click to expand...

Thank you for bringing this to my attention! I wasn't aware of it and will be bringing it up with the officials in our meeting shortly.

RD

We run our own stopwatch and do what we know is right. I go out on leg 2, so I'm not sure what is said to or by the ramp manager, if anything.

STV_Keith said:

We run our own stopwatch and do what we know is right. I go out on leg 2, so I'm not sure what is said to or by the ramp manager, if anything.

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what I thought, and to my knowledge, our first pit went as planned with our own timer. no so on the second pit with about 6 lap to go. we had holders in the water, a driver that didn't know who to listen to and sure 10 or 15 seconds lost by our count. ramp guy was adamant about us leaving on our clock.......glad to hear yours went smooth

GETBOATS said:

At this years enduro we found that ramp timers were handing out times, rounded apparently to the minute shown on a digital watch, no seconds! we were given a time at our second pit 2 0 1 meaning 2:01 i guess. didn't think much of it till we tried to launch at the in ramp with our own accounting of when to go. exactly 10 minutes from the time we touched to boat when loading. were told by ramp official if we went we would be penalized, and do not proceed till he said so. lots of confusion and wasted time till we figured out what was going on. in a game where every seconds counts. we count lap times and get pretty excited when just a few seconds a lap are saved. in a system like this where rounding is practiced, your time could work in your favor or against you by 59 seconds on each end. anyone else encounter this? and more importantly was i asleep at the drivers meeting and miss it?

Click to expand...

We gained time on the first stop and lost time on the second because of this. Next year I'd like to have a better understanding on how your timed on lap one and the 1st lap after a pit stop. We chose to run longer than the index to play it safe but feel we may of left some time on the table doing so. When more boats show up to race these seconds will matter. We had a great time and will race again next year.

My understanding (and I might be wrong) is that the scorers have a clock in front of them. If the race goes off at 11:00am, and you come around at 11:11:00am, you are counted for an eleven minute lap. Same is done with pit stops. The out ramp guy notes your time when someone touches the boat...that's the finish of that laps' time. When you leave from the in ramp, your leaving time is noted. Later, when they combine the two, they determine that you were in the pits for at least 10 mins, you're good to go. Your time then starts again when you leave the in ramp on course, and that lap is recorded when you go by the judges stand.

STV_Keith said:

My understanding (and I might be wrong) is that the scorers have a clock in front of them. If the race goes off at 11:00am, and you come around at 11:11:00am, you are counted for an eleven minute lap. Same is done with pit stops. The out ramp guy notes your time when someone touches the boat...that's the finish of that laps' time. When you leave from the in ramp, your leaving time is noted. Later, when they combine the two, they determine that you were in the pits for at least 10 mins, you're good to go. Your time then starts again when you leave the in ramp on course, and that lap is recorded when you go by the judges stand.

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That's what we figured but I wonder if timing and scoring was on top of it enough to keep it straight. We protected ourselves just in case they were. Either way it was fun and I'm hoping more people will come out and race next year.