Why aren't turbos more popular in the performance boating world?

Seems like you hardly see any turbo motors out there. They seem to only be in schiada's, or big diesel marine motors. Or old school banks setups. Why have they not become more popular?

Ibeplumbing said:

Seems like you hardly see any turbo motors out there. They seem to only be in schiada's, or big diesel marine motors. Or old school banks setups. Why have they not become more popular?

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If I had to guess mostly because they cost more then blowers..

I always thought low boost turbo setups for stock merc motors (like banks used to make) would be a HUGE market in the marine industry though. CP started developing some stuff for the HP500 years back, but I'm not sure anything ever came of it.

RD

I always thought it was an exhaust heat issue.

S400 frame turbos are only about 600 bucks or so..

I think the exhaust and related issues would be a pain in the ass.

RiverDave said:

If I had to guess mostly because they cost more then blowers..

I always thought low boost turbo setups for stock merc motors (like banks used to make) would be a HUGE market in the marine industry though. CP started developing some stuff for the HP500 years back, but I'm not sure anything ever came of it.

RD

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Gale Banks has posted on FB that he will begin selling marine turbos again, even posting photos of some newer castings.

obnoxious001 said:

Gale Banks has posted on FB that he will begin selling marine turbos again, even posting photos of some newer castings.

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Barry,
How are you with doing turbo setups?

Because it's easier to put a blower on. Anyone can buy one and put it on with limited resources. Also, turbos are ugly as hell, but it's a small price to pay for the stupid power they can make. and btw, I don't have that much more in it than an good 8-71 combo.

B

236eagledave said:

I always thought it was an exhaust heat issue.

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You can water cool anything.. Or even heat shield them with water jacketed shields (which most have)

obnoxious001 said:

Gale Banks has posted on FB that he will begin selling marine turbos again, even posting photos of some newer castings.

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I'm glad someone is doing it.. If I had more $$$$ I would've done it years ago.

scottchbrite said:

Because it's easier to put a blower on. Anyone can buy one and put it on with limited resources. Also, turbos are ugly as hell, but it's a small price to pay for the stupid power they can make. and btw, I don't have that much more in it than an good 8-71 combo.

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Scottchbrite, that looks like a thing of beauty to me! NICE!! Did you check out that twin turbo coyote build on here? My buddy Greg build a BAD ASS rig.

RD

scottchbrite said:

Because it's easier to put a blower on. Anyone can buy one and put it on with limited resources. Also, turbos are ugly as hell, but it's a small price to pay for the stupid power they can make. and btw, I don't have that much more in it than an good 8-71 combo.

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Turbos are ugly to people who believe function follows form. Those of us that think otherwise think they look tits [emoji1]

As far exhaust heat issues, that is kinda yes and no. Only one guy has really developed and offers marine turbos that are worth a damn over the last 20 or so years, that would be Carson Brummett, who bought everything that Gentry started developing after he had his accident and passed. He has his own castings done and the turbos are 100% water-jacketed, so there are no heat issues with them. They also have integrated waste gates in the turbo housing, meaning exhaust plumbing is very easy. When you see new turbo builds from almost any shop, they have sourced all the parts from Carson (Exhaust manifolds, turbo housings, intercooler, etc)

If you just go down and throw some automotive turbos yes you will have a heat issue, you'd have to run an open hatch, or try to weld up those cheesy heat shield deals over the turbo.

Now beyond that exhaust leaving the turbo is actually cooler than exhaust from an NA motor for two reasons, 1) ideal gas law states that when you transition a gas from high pressure (before the turbo) to low pressure (exhaust pipe) it will cool. 2) the turbo itself is removing additional heat energy from the exhaust gas and turning it into mechanical rotation.

Really one of the main reasons you don't see them all the time is the very low hole shot from a turbo charged motor is not great compared to a blower unless you have a 2 speed transmission. If you are going to have big enough gears and prop to utilitize the high end power of a turbo motor, it is going to be very heavily loaded coming out of the hole. Transmissions are easy to put in V-drives, or very large performance boats (staggered Vs, cats) but not so much for 90% of consumer stuff with bravo style drives. With the advent of EFI boost control, this got wayyyyyyyyy better than old carbed turbos, and in most cases is totally doable now, although a whipple/blower will still beat a turbo from dead stop till ~2,500rpm every time all other things being equal. Combine that with the fact that a good turbo setup is about 2x the money of a good blower setup (just the cost of the turbo system vs the blower system, not the entire motor) and you can get an idea of why you don't see more. $$$$ Blower motors are cheap to build by comparison

Anyone that thinks turbos are ugly is crazy, Carson's turbo motors are like jewelry.

Racey said:

Now beyond that exhaust leaving the turbo is actually cooler than exhaust from an NA motor for two reasons, 1) ideal gas law states that when you transition a gas from high pressure (before the turbo) to low pressure (exhaust pipe) it will cool. 2) the turbo itself is removing additional heat energy from the exhaust gas and turning it into mechanical rotation.

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You're right with these two statements. The problem is that, in a boat, doing a water cooled turbine housing reduces the efficiency of the turbo since some of that heat (aka energy) is absorbed by a "cool" housing. Now there are some things you can do to decrease housing temp and increase efficiency like ceramic coatings which holds the heat in and doesn't allow it to radiate out.

I think the industry has just gotten used to superchargers over the decades. But I wouldn't say turbos aren't popular, look how many Mercury 1100/1350s are out there now with twin turbos...

Ibeplumbing said:

Barry,
How are you with doing turbo setups?

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I've built numerous turbo engines, and my turbo experience dates back to when I worked for Banks in the late 70's. I have not scratch built a one off type setup if that's what you are asking.

I think it's because the compressor style blowers have become incredibly efficient without generating heat the way a roots blower does and you have instant throttle response. It's hard to beat the snappyness of a blower motor.

ToMorrow44 said:

You're right with these two statements. The problem is that, in a boat, doing a water cooled turbine housing reduces the efficiency of the turbo since some of that heat (aka energy) is absorbed by a "cool" housing. Now there are some things you can do to decrease housing temp and increase efficiency like ceramic coatings which holds the heat in and doesn't allow it to radiate out.

I think the industry has just gotten used to superchargers over the decades. But I wouldn't say turbos aren't popular, look how many Mercury 1100/1350s are out there now with twin turbos...

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That thermal loss is negligible in real power, I have been at Carson's dyno and watched motors from the Ausie configuration (dry turbos, header pipes, huge intercooler), vs the gentry stuff (cooled turbos, aluminum manifolds, gentry intercooler) same Cu in. They made within 20hp of each other, and that was at 1,400hp, about 1.5%, that isn't even enough to quantify benefits of the turbo system or somewhere else in the motor.... I was pretty surprised. Carson said he wasn't, the exhaust is moving through there so fast that the inside of the turbo vs the outside temps, it's not a a huge difference to the actual exhaust gasses temp as they blow through the system. That was one of the ausie turbo motors in a ski race boat that they were claiming 1,700hp btw That is where Carson's truth serum comes out.

Yeah and Merc finally realized that turbos have a lot of benefits, it only took them 15 years to figure it out

Merc's real advantage is the 4 valve motor platform itself, not the turbo system so much. :thumbsup

I would love to have a turbo motor. Seems to me they would have the same issues they do in other applications and that is spool and drivability. Back in 2008 ish my truck was some what of a test to get BIG cfm and very low response. This was done with 3 chargers and 3 50mm gates, it was really the first street triple turbo application that I am aware of. It was also intercooled between stages. The truck was a 5.9 and was making psi at 1500 RPM's with 2500 CFM.

I could be wrong but I don't see a huge issue with heat, coating and a turbo blanket plus exhaust wrap should do it I think.

In some ways it might be easier with RPM that just isn't there in a diesel like it is with gas.

I always thought they looked bad ass and respected the guys who went the turbo route for several reasons.

No turbo Boat sticks in my mind more than the very highly respected chassis builder Rod and Dave Pepmuellers Hemi-Powered Twin Turbo
Capaladi and Hendy C&H Blown Gas Hydro the "Wild Kind".
That motor made so much power at WOT that it would rip a ear right off a new prop Seen it myself a couple times when they first put the beast together.
They made several changes to make it all work and it seemed no matter what those guys did the thing would remain a beast for Dave to drive.

They can be set up to make ludicrous H.P.

The Boat sits in a garage in Parker right now as I write this.

My SiL was big into drag racing 10-20 years ago, racing small block Mustangs in Street Outlaw classes. He progressed from blowers to turbos quite successfully. The turbos took over when EFI ignition systems got things right to almost the eliminate the turbo lag Racey mentions. He also built some great custom piping systems making installation, functionality, and cosmetics mute points.

Not knowing the market very well, I'd think it's just an overdue matter of time more marine motor builders understand the values turbos offer and they start becoming more popular. I also think that blower advances to better products have held turbo popularity back. One big reason my SiL went away from blowers was the poor reliability and issues he had with keeping belt driven blowers functioning. I'd love to have the money he spent replacing thrown belts on the old Prochargers.

Another great advantage to turbos is the quietening effect on exhausts. This should mean something when choosing power adders.

scottchbrite said:

Also, turbos are ugly as hell

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Not Ugly:

Turbos make it difficult to have a closed engine hatch in most all mid size performance boat applications. Mainly because the majority of boats built these days are an I/O. You have x dimensions to maintain which effect engine height and hatch design. Blowers only need clearance in the center of the hatch. You'd need clearance above each manifold for the turbos plus the intake tubes.... Not exactly "user friendly" unless you have a v-drive where the engine can sit lower in the hull.

Racey said:

Anyone that thinks turbos are ugly is crazy, Carson's turbo motors are like jewelry.

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Brummett jewelry [emoji106]



Pic courtesy of jmeads

rivrrts429 said:

Brummett jewelry [emoji106]

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Thats badass. Very clean.

Isn't it true that boost control with a supercharger is a bit easier, since compressor speed is directly tied to engine rpm?

My buddy just built this turbo set up for his 25 Daytona.

rivrrts429 said:

Brummett jewelry [emoji106]

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Pic courtesy of jmeads

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I would take my engine hatch off for this! :thumbup:

pronstar said:

Isn't it true that boost control with a supercharger is a bit easier, since compressor speed is directly tied to engine rpm?

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I would say boost is LIMITED with a supercharger by engine speeds. With a turbo you could hold the wastegate shut and let it eat.. With various springs and in the wastegate and a reliable method of boost control, it is very easy to dial in the boost you want to run.

In some modified cars you'll hear about "boost creep" which essentially means the wastegate cannot release enough exhaust gasses to limit the boost, so boost will "creep" up on high speed pulls. You would either need to adjust the fuel map for that, or fix it so it does not creep. In a boat setup I can't really see that happening.

The nice thing with turbo boost and waste gates is that you can dial your boost while moving or have a push to pass button. So for normal day to day stuff run around at lower boost levels and if you need to get by someone real quick just push the button and add the extra 100 hp for the few seconds it takes. The rest of the day you can drive the crap out of it without always maxing it out. We run this setup in our turbo snowmobiles. works awsome.

pronstar said:

Isn't it true that boost control with a supercharger is a bit easier, since compressor speed is directly tied to engine rpm?

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They work in similar ways from a tuning standpoint when behind the keyboard (boost setpoint based on gear and throttle position). A supercharger will have a larger workable area in the boost setpoint table in most cases which gives you more options.

While a supercharger's compressor is tied directly to engine RPM, and you control boost by bleeding/bypassing boost from the outlet side back to the inlet.

A turbocharger's speed is tied directly to engine load instead of RPM, and you control boost not by bleeding boost off, but by bleeding exhaust off and hence slowing the turbo down.

Once you have gotten beyond idle and into transitional/cruise range they both work well to control boost.

There is no free lunch, a blower allows you to run longer overlap on your cam and more fully clear the cylinder of hot combusted gases, for each new power cycle, at the expense of eating up mechanical horsepower from the crank turning the blower

A turbo doesn't eat up mechanical horsepower, but since the exhaust manifold pressure is higher than the intake manifold any large degree of overlap would actually push more exhaust back into the cylinder and push the fresh charge back up the intake. So your combustion event will always have a little bit more of hot combusted charge left in it from the previous cycle, which is why you will normally run a turbo motor a hair richer for cylinder cooling. So this means a lower combustion pressure, which is easier on the engine internals in some ways. A turbo motor doesn't have to work as hard for the power output in that respect, more of the power sent down the rods is put to actual real use, less parasitic loss.

This is where sizing the turbine/compressor are key, you want to try and maintain the lowest possible ratio of exhaust back pressure to intake manifold pressure without sacrificing responsiveness. 1:1 is ideal and you can get close in certain areas, but may sacrifice in others. In most cases 1.5:1 is pretty good. Too much and the pressure starts backing all the way up to the valve & that is where your power stops going up even though you are adding more boost. Me and DaveH have run motors in cars on the dyno that make the same exact HP at 8psi as they do at 12psi because of this. Running out of turbo flow. I'd bet that Alexi's compound deal gets pretty close to 1:1, it probably even exceeds that in certain load/rpm areas, the drawback is the complexity/weight/expense of the engine, once again "No Free Lunch" :thumbup:

Hammer said:

Turbos make it difficult to have a closed engine hatch in most all mid size performance boat applications. Mainly because the majority of boats built these days are an I/O. You have x dimensions to maintain which effect engine height and hatch design. Blowers only need clearance in the center of the hatch. You'd need clearance above each manifold for the turbos plus the intake tubes.... Not exactly "user friendly" unless you have a v-drive where the engine can sit lower in the hull.

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I claim to have no real knowledge on this matter.

With that said, turbo's can be side mounted vs. have screws top center. Most single engine boats have room port/starboard under the hatch. The additional plumbing could be tricky, but I'm not sure if that's going going to add much in the height (including now it's injected vs. carb on top). It's a big departure from the height of an old-school-cool 8-71 / carb / scoop that's 2' high. If they can be shoehorned under the hood of new cars - can't be that bad on a boat with TONS more room. I did leave out the cooling portion...




exaggerated, but shows the versatility.


old: how high above the head new: just above even keel.

LargeOrangeFont said:

I would say boost is LIMITED with a supercharger by engine speeds. With a turbo you could hold the wastegate shut and let it eat.. With various springs and in the wastegate and a reliable method of boost control, it is very easy to dial in the boost you want to run.

In some modified cars you'll hear about "boost creep" which essentially means the wastegate cannot release enough exhaust gasses to limit the boost, so boost will "creep" up on high speed pulls. You would either need to adjust the fuel map for that, or fix it so it does not creep. In a boat setup I can't really see that happening.

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Welcome to the board.

Racey said:

Anyone that thinks turbos are ugly is crazy, Carson's turbo motors are like jewelry.

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Not my words. You would be surprised the number of people that tell me that blowers motors look better

RiverDave said:

Scottchbrite, that looks like a thing of beauty to me! NICE!! Did you check out that twin turbo coyote build on here? My buddy Greg build a BAD ASS rig.

RD

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I have. I know of those guys from yellowbullet

Not ugly, fits under a hatch, with a bravo drive, quieter, idles like a BMW, and hauls ass!

River Dirt 2 said:

Not ugly, fits under a hatch, with a bravo drive, quieter, idles like a BMW, and hauls ass!

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Is that Myer's old Conquest?

River Dirt 2 said:

Not ugly, fits under a hatch, with a bravo drive, quieter, idles like a BMW, and hauls ass!

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I want that setup! [emoji41]

Sure looks like it.

I've been lucky and had boats with both blower and turbo motors. Maybe its been mentioned already but the 4 things I like better on the turbo motor, no HP loss for running a blower, better on the valve train, easy adjustment on EFI for boost settings, pump AV race gas, and at Havasu or any place for that matter now is the noise. If this is Andys motor above he actually was so low on noise he was able to get a noise decibel sticker at the main launch ramp. It sucked muffling my blower motors after the third noise ticket.

Racey said:

Is that Myer's old Conquest?

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If its Andys that is the cleanest Conquest I've ever seen. Took him long enough, maybe he picked up the turtle pace from that Brummett guy.

River Dirt 2 said:

Not ugly, fits under a hatch, with a bravo drive, quieter, idles like a BMW, and hauls ass!

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I remember seeing that boat on powerboatlistings. I wanted it so bad. Super clean and simple looking. I'm sure it hauls the mail, too.

Racey said:

Is that Myer's old Conquest?

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Yes, I hear there are two more like it in the works

The choice is clear most guys would rather be Blown

nowski said:

The choice is clear most guys would rather be Blown

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Except that with turbos you get blown by twins :boobeyes::boobeyes:

River Dirt 2 said:

Except that with turbos you get blown by twins :boobeyes::boobeyes:

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Why stop with twins...

pronstar said:

Why stop with twins...

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I remember seeing that thing at SEMA about 10 years ago.

Come to think of it that was right around when i decided to stop going...

x2

River Dirt 2 said:

Not ugly, fits under a hatch, with a bravo drive, quieter, idles like a BMW, and hauls ass!

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Very sweet Dude. Im turgid.

Why aren't turbos more popular?

The short answer is- More money, more complexity, and it's more important AND harder to get it right.

Anybody can bolt a blower on get it half right and still run a while before it fails.


UD

Anyone remember the 3 twin turbo Daytonas that used to sit on the point in the Channel? I got to go for a ride on Nick's and he had the back seat out with an engine hatch all to way to the front seats, I got the ice chest![emoji1][emoji106] Man that was a fun ride and I believe his was a 3 speed, they had extra drives hanging in their garages.

RVRKID said:

Anyone remember the 3 twin turbo Daytonas that used to sit on the point in the Channel? I got to go for a ride on Nick's and he had the back seat out with an engine hatch all to way to the front seats, I got the ice chest![emoji1][emoji106] Man that was a fun ride and I believe his was a 3 speed, they had extra drives hanging in their garages.

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El Turbo ?

AFUEL7067 said:

El Turbo ?

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Was that it, I was just trying to remember the names. Just remembered Black Velvet,what a story with that one and what he ended up boating in.

scottchbrite said:

Because it's easier to put a blower on. Anyone can buy one and put it on with limited resources. Also, turbos are ugly as hell, but it's a small price to pay for the stupid power they can make. and btw, I don't have that much more in it than an good 8-71 combo.

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Those turbos do sounds and run good in that boat Scott! Your welcome for the video a couple season ago! Time a new one.

Anyone have a link to the new banks marine turbos ?