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More2LifeThanMPG

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I have an 86 Howard 21' River Cruiser, it has a Mercruiser 350 backed up by an alpha 1 drive. It currently has a high five 5 blade torque prop (19 pitch) that has some serious hole pull. But I'm thinking about switching up props, or a least having a good usable spare. Anyone have any recommendations or anyone care to school me a prop pitch? I'm not looking for seriously performance, but I'm thinking I'm leaning more towards mid to high range power than low end.

From what little research I have done, it seems to be all over the board as to what to start with. And I'd like to not have to buy and trade 15 times before finding the right one.

I'm currently running 39 mph at 4700 rpm, which I am aware means a lot of prop slip. The current prop is very worn and would also like a recommendation on where I can go in north OC to get it worked on.
 

NicPaus

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http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bpo/5631245606.html Offer $150 this will get you more top end than the high 5. A 21 Bravo 1 4 blade is another I would try with your setup. Friends Ultra had similar setup with a 21 high 5, the 19 is a little low and being worn probably a little less pitch.


In general for your setup 5 blade high five for skiing or watersports. 4 blade bravo 1 best all around. 3 blade Mirage plus top end.
 

Trash

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I have an 86 Howard 21' River Cruiser, it has a Mercruiser 350 backed up by an alpha 1 drive. It currently has a high five 5 blade torque prop (19 pitch) that has some serious hole pull. But I'm thinking about switching up props, or a least having a good usable spare. Anyone have any recommendations or anyone care to school me a prop pitch? I'm not looking for seriously performance, but I'm thinking I'm leaning more towards mid to high range power than low end.

From what little research I have done, it seems to be all over the board as to what to start with. And I'd like to not have to buy and trade 15 times before finding the right one.

I'm currently running 39 mph at 4700 rpm, which I am aware means a lot of prop slip. The current prop is very worn and would also like a recommendation on where I can go in north OC to get it worked on.

What is your drive ratio in the Alpha? Your slip is through the roof which may be indicative of a bigger problem.

I would try a 19" Laser II three blade before you try any Mirage series props. The Laser II is better setup blade wise for small blocks (smaller total blade area).

21" High Five might be another choice.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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What is your drive ratio in the Alpha? Your slip is through the roof which may be indicative of a bigger problem.

I would try a 19" Laser II three blade before you try any Mirage series props. The Laser II is better setup blade wise for small blocks (smaller total blade area).

21" High Five might be another choice.

I'm truly not sure, everything I've read says I should have 1.5 gears. Is there an easy way to check this?
 

Trash

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Its usually stamped on the outside of the drive.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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Its usually stamped on the outside of the drive.

I have looked all over the drive and in detail at the "normal" spots it should be, and am unable to locate it. Please help.
IMG_2339.jpg
IMG_1040.jpg
IMG_2340.jpg
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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So picked up the high five after getting balanced and detailed. Still looking for another prop, thinking a four blade 20p. From my understanding they are a pretty rare find, so I'd like to try a 21p.

IMG_2346.jpg
IMG_2347.jpg
 

AzGeo

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your X dimension is so low that you don't need anything but a 3 blade on it .

Since you don't have a 'blower motor' or a high X dimension, save time and money, go with a 3 blade stainless prop .

It will run very nice with a 21 pitch 3 blade, but won't pull skiers very well . For overall ski, board, tube use, go with a 20 pitch 3 blade stainless . Try a Signature by Hill if going new .

Otherwise, try a Mirage 19/21 or or custom 20 pitch 3 blade .

All this 4, 5 blade BS isn't doing you any good, you don't have the power or the need for the extra expense they require .
 

Runs2rch

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I have a 21 and a 23 Mirage for sale if you are interested.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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your X dimension is so low that you don't need anything but a 3 blade on it .

Since you don't have a 'blower motor' or a high X dimension, save time and money, go with a 3 blade stainless prop .

It will run very nice with a 21 pitch 3 blade, but won't pull skiers very well . For overall ski, board, tube use, go with a 20 pitch 3 blade stainless . Try a Signature by Hill if going new .

Otherwise, try a Mirage 19/21 or or custom 20 pitch 3 blade .

All this 4, 5 blade BS isn't doing you any good, you don't have the power or the need for the extra expense they require .

Thanks, and I would like to try a 21p 3 blade too. Just to see how they are feel. My major concern with a mirage 21 would be how high the rpms will increase, from my basic understanding 4650-4800 rpm is right where I want to be with this combo set up. That said I know every single boat is different and each one will handle differently.
 

2FORCEFULL

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your X dimension is so low that you don't need anything but a 3 blade on it .

Since you don't have a 'blower motor' or a high X dimension, save time and money, go with a 3 blade stainless prop .

It will run very nice with a 21 pitch 3 blade, but won't pull skiers very well . For overall ski, board, tube use, go with a 20 pitch 3 blade stainless . Try a Signature by Hill if going new .

Otherwise, try a Mirage 19/21 or or custom 20 pitch 3 blade .

All this 4, 5 blade BS isn't doing you any good, you don't have the power or the need for the extra expense they require .

great post, I wanna add that hill makes a small diameter 4 blade that would get the best of both worlds
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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great post, I wanna add that hill makes a small diameter 4 blade that would get the best of both worlds

See now that adds a whole other dimension. Most everyone I have spoken with as well as most of what I've read as far and general info prop selectors. Say to go with 15" or 15 1/4 diameter. But from my understand will change the recommended pitch also.

Please excuse my ignorance if this is off. This is all new for me, and I'm very much a show me the numbers person. So I'd love to be able to try several.
 

NicPaus

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See now that adds a whole other dimension. Most everyone I have spoken with as well as most of what I've read as far and general info prop selectors. Say to go with 15" or 15 1/4 diameter. But from my understand will change the recommended pitch also.

Please excuse my ignorance if this is off. This is all new for me, and I'm very much a show me the numbers person. So I'd love to be able to try several.

Steve and George know there shit when it comes to props. I have bought 8 props so far for my new to me boat just trying them out, my old boat I had 3 that were dialed in for different purpose (14 years same boat). I still have 2 props from a boat I owned for a few months one is a 21 high 5 but needs work. Trial and error is the best method. Every prop handles a little different. Try as many as you can borrow and look for deals on the rest.
 

NicPaus

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21 Rev4 would be a great choice.

I think a 19 with that setup. They bite hard I have a 23 and my old 22' boat with a 454 could not pull it but it works well with a 26' with a 496HO. The Rev rides totally different than the Bravo and Mirage props.
 

AzGeo

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great post, I wanna add that hill makes a small diameter 4 blade that would get the best of both worlds

It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .
 

hallett21

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It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .

I've always thought of the "high five" as a hole shot/ski prop not really a go fast prop.

Obviously with props one will not do everything perfectly but do you think the 3 blade would be comparable with hole shot? Certainly should help in the mid range/top end.

OP AZ Geo knows his stuff.
 

Flying_Lavey

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It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .
Exactly what I was thinking as well.

OP, if you ever make it up to Nacimiento I have a 21 pitch Laser I you'd be welcome to try.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .

Now this makes total sense, more than anything else I've read so far! Thank you sir
 

AzGeo

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I've always thought of the "high five" as a hole shot/ski prop not really a go fast prop.

Obviously with props one will not do everything perfectly but do you think the 3 blade would be comparable with hole shot? Certainly should help in the mid range/top end.

OP AZ Geo knows his stuff.

Thanks, but it's all about 'maximizing your overall performance', because otherwise, just go down on pitch for low end pull, or up on pitch until the motor can't pull any RPMs .

I wish everyone were able to test props FOR FREE, and without 'opinions' and unrequired input . The blade diameter that gets the boat going, also must be 'drug' thru the water while cruising and at WOT .

Consider this; a 260 HP Merc I/O could use a Mirage (3 blade) 14 1/2" X 19 pitch in a 24' V-bottom . That same power could be used in a 18' V-bottom and only require that Mirage to 'drag' 13 3/4" diameter with the 19 pitch, because the 'gross weight' has changed, not the power or the 'X' .

So I consider 'out of the box props' a good STARTING POINT, and rarely the best performance available, at reasonable cost .

There is a LOT to LEARN about props, I'm 45 plus years into it, and I know very little . (but keep learning every day)

I've known guys with 'jack plates' to use a High Five, as their 'poor man's Herring 5 blade' .

A boat with a 'low water pick up' or 'hull water pick up' can maintain 'cooling water flow/pressure' and then the driver could 'jack the motor up' and use the CAST High Five as a 'surface piercing' prop set up . Did I mention they are CAST ?

The 5 small blades (even with nice rake) don't seem to 'lift the transom' when they are run REAL HIGH as in surface piercing .

The use of High Fives has been limited to 'low end pulling' because Merc doesn't make them with more than 23 pitch . (last time I checked that was all)

If they did start making 29/31/33 pitch High Fives, you can be sure that you would soon see some 'big blown cat with a Bravo' spitting those 'little blades' all over the water . HA HA
 

Trash

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It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .


The likely best prop for speed would be a 3 blade, but rather than trim down a Mirage or Mirage Plus I'd simply get a Laser II in 19 or 21" pitch. The Lasers have less blade area than the Mirage 3 blades, so engine loading (torque) of the small blocks typically work better with the Laser II line.

Extra blades can work wonders, but they won't be the fastest. The key is you need the right 4 or 5 blade prop. High 5's are great for pulling and out of the hole work. They are also smooth. They also have higher steady state slip at cruise and generally the entire rpm band. I would not use a Rev 4 simply due to the large blade area AND larger diameter.

I would investigate the 4 blade smaller diameter (14-14.5") Hill prop 2FF suggested OR look for a Mach Sterndriver 4 blade prop in the 18-20" pitch range. Problem is they are rare as hens teeth. I had a Mach Sterndriver on a SBC Bravo combo for years and it was a superb prop. I had slip rates well below 6% in a broad range of cruising. It wasn't the fastest but was great out of the hole, held well in turns (impossible to blow out) and was smooth. I regret selling that prop after my re-power.

For the fastest and best overall 3 blade prop you would likely be happy with a 19" Laser II. The 21" Laser would be better for cruising/distance but doggy out of the hole.

For the best pulling prop your 19" High 5 or perhaps a 21" High 5, or 18-20" x 14" diameter 4 blade prop (not a Bravo series 4 blade or Rev 4).

Keep in mind you can have the prop labbed or worked on to tweak certain regimes as well.
 

2FORCEFULL

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It's a low X dimension, limited power, V bottom boat .

He could cut down a Mirage 19 or 21 to >14">13 3/4" diameter, and it would never 'blow out in turns','pull skis and wake boards fine', and would RPM higher and run faster on the straights than even a small 4 blade . Since it is so deep, it would have very little 'slip' too .

It must be an SS 3 blade with plenty of RAKE, so the trim will react well .

There is no 'extra power' to pull 'extra blades', so I would never go there .

High X mounting, blower motors, tunnel or odd shaped hull bottoms, could all 'look' at 4 or 5 blades, but to me this is a straight forward deal .

When all you own are 'big engine boats', you get talked into 4 and 5 blades, but for 'normal boats' and 'unblown motors', the performance usually ends up best with a 3 blade .

I ran 3 blades for years and years when they came out with the mach... I had to go down in pitch to turn it..272 baja..

the thing what i'm thinking is that if he turns the 19 five to rev limit, he could go up a pitch or two...most boat I've onwed lately with small bloc power will turn the 14''x 21p no problem...

that and if does turn out to have too much bite , ron will take the bite out
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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So I'm all over CL and have a couple good options. I would like to not have to drop a ton of money on testing props, but at the same time I'd like to try as many options as I can. So if any of these are "too similar" please advise so I don't waste time and money. Thank you all in advance.

Mercury Mirage Stainless Prop $100
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bpo/5674772736.html

2-Mercury Props $300
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bpo/5652057456.html

Stainless 21 pitch prop $125
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bpo/5661330005.html

quicksilver prop omc $100
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/bpo/5679086193.html

Mercury Bravo 1 Propellers $200
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/bpo/5669915714.html
 

AzGeo

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Lazer is really for a 2 stroke outboard, and will 'slip a lot' on an I/O getting up on plane and up to WOT .

Michigan Wheel with rake and cup , Solis with rake and cup (not their pontoon props)

Most any performance stainless 3 blade with some rake and cup will work .

You may end up with a 20 pitch 3 blade if you can find one .
 

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You call on the one for $125 to check diameter? The 23 Mirage plus is to much pitch for your setup have one in my shed from my 454 boat I sold. The OMC one will not work. I would trust George and Steve on the smaller blade diameter. Only owned a few small blocks and sold them fast so not much prop testing.
 

AzGeo

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Laser II works fine with small blocks.

My buddy has a 21' with a 377/Bravo I and the Lazer II 23 pitch slips and slides way too much . He's now running a Mirage 23 that has been cut down 1/2" in diameter, and it's the best he has tried so far .
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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So would a 14 5/8 dia with a 23 pitch be too much? Would it run too high rpm?
 

AzGeo

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What is the gross weight of your boat ? What is the original diameter of the prop you want to use ? I don't think you will be able to pull more than a 21 pitch with a small block with less than 300 HP .
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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What is the gross weight of your boat ? What is the original diameter of the prop you want to use ? I don't think you will be able to pull more than a 21 pitch with a small block with less than 300 HP .

I believe the gross weight is somewhere around 3200lbs, haven't actually scaled it.
And I don't the diameter I want to use? Everywhere I look I can't seem to locate the positives or negatives of different diameters, I know it has to make a difference.

I would really like to be pointed in the direction of a good read on all the differences?
 

AzGeo

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I would 'try' a few 3 blade 21 pitch props . If you buy one and accidentally hit a rock or the lake bottom, have it repaired and 'cut off 1/4" overall', this means 1/8" all the way around .

Then test it . You should be able to find a number of 'nice used 21's', and adjust/cut/ add cup/remove cup, until you get one that works the best overall .

Then just do those same changes to another 21 for a spare . Or start with a 19 pitch ......
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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I would 'try' a few 3 blade 21 pitch props . If you buy one and accidentally hit a rock or the lake bottom, have it repaired and 'cut off 1/4" overall', this means 1/8" all the way around .

Then test it . You should be able to find a number of 'nice used 21's', and adjust/cut/ add cup/remove cup, until you get one that works the best overall .

Then just do those same changes to another 21 for a spare . Or start with a 19 pitch ......

I'm going to pick a mirage 21 and quicksilver 19 tomorrow. I'm trying to locate at least another 21. I have all but give up on finding a used 20p. I'm dropping the boat off to Jim Wilkes tomorrow, so I'm going to see if he was able to locate anything also.
 

NicPaus

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I would really like to be pointed in the direction of a good read on all the differences?[/QUOTE]



In general for your setup 5 blade high five for skiing or watersports. 4 blade bravo 1 best all around. 3 blade Mirage plus top end.



With input from Prop Master Steve and George who has been in the biz far longer than you have been alive. A 21 3 blade in a 14 1/4" 3 blade similar to a Mirage Plus but not 15 1/4". If you are on a budget the 23 I have is damaged and you can have it just needs repair and might as well cut it down while at it. Also have a 21 High 5 needs repair I can grab it next weekend in parker. Trial and error works best.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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I would really like to be pointed in the direction of a good read on all the differences?



In general for your setup 5 blade high five for skiing or watersports. 4 blade bravo 1 best all around. 3 blade Mirage plus top end.



With input from Prop Master Steve and George who has been in the biz far longer than you have been alive. A 21 3 blade in a 14 1/4" 3 blade similar to a Mirage Plus but not 15 1/4". If you are on a budget the 23 I have is damaged and you can have it just needs repair and might as well cut it down while at it. Also have a 21 High 5 needs repair I can grab it next weekend in parker. Trial and error works best.[/QUOTE]

I really appreciate the offer, let me see what I can dig up over the next couple days and I'll yet you know.

I did find this, I'm going to get a hard quote tomorrow on what it would be to have fix.

Quicksilver mirage prop $150
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/bpo/5687284441.html

I also spoke to have guy with a 23p 14 5/8, that's not damaged. Said I'd take $60, but like azgeo said I am worried that's not a small enough diameter drop for the motor to spin fast enough though.

Also have my eye on one of these, but again that's a diameter and pitch increase.

Stainless steel Bravo 1 propellars $200
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/bpo/5610936070.html
 

NicPaus

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That one is in rough shape just like mine. around $150 to get fixed. The 22 is a little much but could be cut down. 20 is rare either 19 21 or 23 for 3 blade. 4 blade 22 and 24 are common. 19 or 21 in high five occasionally a 23 will pop up but way to much for your setup.



Most people just settle for what it comes with and do not realize what a huge difference it can make. Been a learning experience for me. now just wish i could afford that 525EFI XR upgrade swap. Keep at these 12 hour + days every day and it might be sooner than later.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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That one is in rough shape just like mine. around $150 to get fixed. The 22 is a little much but could be cut down. 20 is rare either 19 21 or 23 for 3 blade. 4 blade 22 and 24 are common. 19 or 21 in high five occasionally a 23 will pop up but way to much for your setup.



Most people just settle for what it comes with and do not realize what a huge difference it can make. Been a learning experience for me. now just wish i could afford that 525EFI XR upgrade swap. Keep at these 12 hour + days every day and it might be sooner than later.

Yeah that's pretty much want I'm figuring out. I'm very much a show me the numbers person too. So I'll be trying pretty much anything that is bolt on ready and see what it does.

At least you get ot, salary here but still working 12+ hour days. Got suckered into that one not realizing. Haha
 

NicPaus

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No OT here or a guaranteed pay check . Just trying to make customers happy working hard . Hopefully it pays off.
 

Trash

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My buddy has a 21' with a 377/Bravo I and the Lazer II 23 pitch slips and slides way too much . He's now running a Mirage 23 that has been cut down 1/2" in diameter, and it's the best he has tried so far .

I run the same 21" Laser II and don't have that problem.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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As far as some minor damage to a blade goes, how much of a difference would it make?

Would it make a huge difference for testing? I really don't want to have to put a bunch of money in to a bunch of props that I'm probably going to sell. I can take a couple pictures of the prop I am in specific question about.
 

More2LifeThanMPG

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Pictures of the damage in question... My major concern is will this effect the performance enough to not give it a fair shack while testing.
IMG_2381.jpg
IMG_2382.jpg
IMG_2383.jpg
IMG_2384.jpg
 

77charger

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I have a mirage 19p and a 21p they are both cupped by hill and the 21 is just a tad too much but it is cupped pretty good and worked well with light load and solo.The 19 is not cupped as much but pulls out of the hole hard and strong midrange will pull to 57 at 4800rpm full fuel and 2 adults 2 kids and normal stuff in boat for a day.

Boat is a eliminator 207 350 mag/alpha drive.When i bought it it had the mirage 21p that was done by bronson hill and seemed to work very good all around had alot of bow lift trimmed out would get me 60 at 4800 rpm i also tried
22 bravo it was way too much and picked up the transom,
21p rev 4-lil slow out of the hole strong midrange and 58mph top end,used more fuel compared to the 3 blade 21p mirage(The 19p rev 4 may have been a very good choice but never tried one this was just based off the 21p rev 4)

My original 21p hit bottom when i let someone else borrow boat had it repaired by york was never the same.Had hill repair it after i nicked it to what it is now almost there but if i have some cup removed a little it will be real good.
I had a spare 19p and i had hill cup that one recently and like i said real strong out of hole and strong mid range and is going to be my main prop for heavy loads or powell trips.I will get the 21 cup reduced and use that as my main prop for everything else.
 

mash on it

Beyond Hell Crew
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Thank you and you say adjustable? Is it suppose to be fixed? Mine moves Side side about a 1/4".

Its either an allen bolt or 1/2" head reached from the top, covered by a plug (usually)

Adjustable for having the boat 'track' straight. Does your boat have power steering? If so, get a 'blank' that fits there.

Dan'l
 
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