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When the levee breaks....Lake Oroville dam in trouble.

Taboma

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...it does sound like they have made a little progress but I'm still a bit confused as to what the dam power plant actually powers ...is it just the dam operations or does it also send electricity elswhere???...what it powers may have been previously posted but if so I can't remember???...

If I recall, the Oroville dam, Hyatt power plant itself, can generate more than 800 Megawatts, far more capacity than just powering the dam facility.
I'm sure it's costing them some big bucks having that plant offline !!!
 

buck35

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If I recall, the Oroville dam, Hyatt power plant itself, can generate more than 800 Megawatts, far more capacity than just powering the dam facility.
I'm sure it's costing them some big bucks having that plant offline !!!

The video says a max of 14000 cfs out of the power house, so id guess closer to 80to 100 megawatts. Still nothing to sneeze at.

probably easy enough to Google for the correct number. :)
 

buck35

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I was just finishing up my paper route when it blew. I still recall the sound when it blew. I was 150+ miles away from it as the crow flies. A couple hours later my parents were driving us to some function and we could see the ash plume very clearly. My dad took us down there a year later and the devastation was amazing. Most of the bridges were washed out by huge trees and mountains of ash and the low lying rivers were choked with huge light grey ash plumes. That was in 1981. When I moved back to the Seattle area and met my wife current wife, we took a trip to MT saint Helens, this was in 1996?. What a difference. It's a 5- 6 hour drive from the Seattle area with no traffic. It quickly became apparent that Weyerhaeuser had spent a ton of money to provide visitor centers. They must have been given the contract to harvest the deadfall.

The interactive displays are amazing, so is the main visitor center. Unfortunately we went in May and it was snowing and the top of the mountain was covered in clouds. There is a IMAX type theater overlooking the top of the mountain, when the video is over the curtains open up to show the side of the mountain that was blown off. Again, it was covered in clouds when we were there last, but I would venture to say it is amazing to get a sense of the scale of the devesta6tion if it is clear. People that are not familiar with the density of the forests in WA state have no idea of the amount of force it takes to knock down thousands of healthy acres of healthy cedars and fir trees. It happened in seconds.
Sorry to continue to derail this awesome thread , the wife and I did go back up in the 90s . We are avid huckleberry hounds and as we were driving up the road to the center we were looking and wondering what the purplish bushes were along the road , so I finally pulled over and Holy shit ive never seen such an abundance of huuuge berries.

On another note it looks like the wife an I will be making a roadtrip to see both Berryessa, and Oroville dams in the next month. Her ex sil lives in sac, and ive been showing her all the photos and news so she's totally game for the trip. Maybe even have a beer or two with someone while there.
 

Taboma

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The video says a max of 14000 cfs out of the power house, so id guess closer to 80to 100 megawatts. Still nothing to sneeze at.

probably easy enough to Google for the correct number. :)

Google is where the number came from --- but perhaps I'm reading it wrong. :headscratch:

States there's Three (3) X 132 MW conventional turbines, then Three (3) 141 MW Pump-generators for a total installed capacity of 819 MW.

Yet another engineering database states it's installed capacity is 644 MW and 725 MW when operating along with the Thermolito power plant.

" Construction of the underground Edward Hyatt Pump-Generating Plant was finished shortly after the completion of Oroville Dam. At the time, it was the largest underground power station in the United States,[18] with three 132 megawatt (MW) conventional turbines and three 141 MW pump-generators for a total installed capacity of 819 MW.[6] The Hyatt Powerplant is capable of pumping water back into Lake Oroville when surplus power is available. The pump-generators at Hyatt can lift up to 5,610 cubic feet per second (159 m3/s) into Lake Oroville (with a net consumption of 519 MW), while the six turbines combined utilize a flow of 16,950 cubic feet per second (480 m3/s) at maximum generation.[55] "
 

Flyinbowtie

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So back when I was the disaster guy for our dept. I got sent to all kinds of interesting training, especially after 9-11.
I learned a little about the power deal, the California ISO (Independent System operator) pretty much is the clearinghouse for power generation in the state. They buy, sell and trade power, focused on delivering it cheap and close, and working out from there, based on demand, which is constantly changing.
The Oroville Hydro plant feeds into this system, and covers the load it can based on demand and generating capacity.
Right now, demand in California is manageable without it.

You can see the ISO here...
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

They can't run the turbines without generating power, it'll mess them up. they need the load on them to run them. Right now they want the additional CFS of water that can be released more than they want the power generation. What they will do when the plant is ready to start feeding the grid is shut down other sources of power and let Oroville take the load it is rated for.
Come summer, when we all crank up our HVAC systems is when the ISO is scrambling for power, and they look for the cheapest again.

Of course I could be wrong on this, but this is what I remember.
 

GRADS

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This should be an easy fix. :yikes Notice the people in the picture.

17155349_10210269819653401_2585278379778701934_n.jpg
 

707dog

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Aint no easy fix and the down stream mess really hasnt started yet
 

Willie B

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They're kicking ass on this thing....


[video=youtube_https;5xa_Q1R7mGs]https://youtu.be/5xa_Q1R7mGs[/video]

...Damn, so to speak ...i'll bet if I were up at my property looking down on the dam at night that it would look brightness wise like a mini Fourth of July fireworks show that The Army corpse of engineers sets off from the top of the dam every year...
 

JB in so cal

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I don't know if it's been asked in the almost 1200 posts, but what would the repair have cost 10 years ago that got shot down vs. what is being spent now?
 

buck35

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Google is where the number came from --- but perhaps I'm reading it wrong. :headscratch:

States there's Three (3) X 132 MW conventional turbines, then Three (3) 141 MW Pump-generators for a total installed capacity of 819 MW.

Yet another engineering database states it's installed capacity is 644 MW and 725 MW when operating along with the Thermolito power plant.

" Construction of the underground Edward Hyatt Pump-Generating Plant was finished shortly after the completion of Oroville Dam. At the time, it was the largest underground power station in the United States,[18] with three 132 megawatt (MW) conventional turbines and three 141 MW pump-generators for a total installed capacity of 819 MW.[6] The Hyatt Powerplant is capable of pumping water back into Lake Oroville when surplus power is available. The pump-generators at Hyatt can lift up to 5,610 cubic feet per second (159 m3/s) into Lake Oroville (with a net consumption of 519 MW), while the six turbines combined utilize a flow of 16,950 cubic feet per second (480 m3/s) at maximum generation.[55] "
This is interesting, our old, dam has 19 turbines and generates less power , albeit with much less head pressure. This was the first on the columbia , and is 80 years old for the most part, although they added a new powerhouse and :) turbines in the 70s.
 

Yellowboat

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I don't know if it's been asked in the almost 1200 posts, but what would the repair have cost 10 years ago that got shot down vs. what is being spent now?

if you adjust for inflation I bet its pretty close to 1/3 of what it will cost now.
 

Old Texan

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This should be an easy fix. :yikes Notice the people in the picture.

View attachment 544024

Being the tallest dam in the nation, the videos and pics don't do it justice and I'd guess many folks do not realize just how huge the spillway is until they see the men standing.

The amount of water that had to flow to get it safe is another thing many failed to realize. Huge numbers. Just huge numbers. Really huge
 

buck35

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Being the tallest dam in the nation, the videos and pics don't do it justice and I'd guess many folks do not realize just how huge the spillway is until they see the men standing.

The amount of water that had to flow to get it safe is another thing to realize. Huge numbers. Just huge numbers. Really huge

I'm going to get a birds eye view it looks like next week. The wife got a care giver for Sunday and we're hitting the road for a trip down. We wont have a lot of time to spend sight seeing but the chance to see and catch a visit during her slow time is now . Should be in Sacramento ny monday. This and Berryessa. :)
 

DaveH

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I don't know if it's been asked in the almost 1200 posts, but what would the repair have cost 10 years ago that got shot down vs. what is being spent now?

more food for thought: imagine if this was run by a private business.....the state would be having a conniption. Look what happened to BP for that oil leak in the Gulf. why is it heads aren't rolling for this?
 

TX Foilhead

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I'm sure they've been through some changes since then and the folks responsible are retired or have moved on. Every time the governor changed they have probably rearranged everyone and maybe a few other times as well.
 

elfin magic

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Being the tallest dam in the nation, the videos and pics don't do it justice and I'd guess many folks do not realize just how huge the spillway is until they see the men standing.

The amount of water that had to flow to get it safe is another thing many failed to realize. Huge numbers. Just huge numbers. Really huge
The picture makes it look like it could be similar in size to something like the 405 freeway? The photo also makes it seem very lightly constructed compared to its size and the amount of water it was designed to handle.
 

Cray Paper

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They're kicking ass on this thing....


[video=youtube_https;5xa_Q1R7mGs]https://youtu.be/5xa_Q1R7mGs[/video]

The narrator in the video is dead wrong on the rebar comments. If the original SOG section of spillway had rebar cast in the concrete, it would not have a clean sheared square end as shown at the 3:00 mark and 4:00 marks with what took place. It should have been bent down and had an elongated stretch / tear appearance to it. The only way what was pictured could happen is if the bar wasn't continuous and stopped at the pour joints. If that was the case, the rebar ends should all align at the cold joint. There would also be slick dowels (smooth rods that are greased on one end) at the pour / cold joint to minimize settlement at the joints. The rock that was used in the concrete is frigging huge, looks like 2" to 6" or larger, again, not normal for most construction types.

Filling the vertical wall section at the end of the broken spillway SOG with shotcrete without reinforcing with epoxy doweling rebar to key it in to the bedrock is a waist of expensive air placed concrete. Looks like they are filling 3'+ with shotcrete. No structural engineer would put their stamp in that without reinforcing steel. Its a bandaid, and not a very good one.

It's interesting that the video showed what the narrator said was SOG drainage pipe to relieve ground water. It looked to me like it was cast in to the SOG and was concrete pipe. I would bet that it was also segmented at the SOG cold joint locations. Also bet that it broke or separated and is the cause of the spillway failure. Makes me wonder where all that water was coming from though, water levels have been at historic lows for years.
 

Old Texan

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The narrator in the video is dead wrong on the rebar comments. If the original SOG section of spillway had rebar cast in the concrete, it would not have a clean sheared square end as shown at the 3:00 mark and 4:00 marks with what took place. It should have been bent down and had an elongated stretch / tear appearance to it. The only way what was pictured could happen is if the bar wasn't continuous and stopped at the pour joints. If that was the case, the rebar ends should all align at the cold joint. There would also be slick dowels (smooth rods that are greased on one end) at the pour / cold joint to minimize settlement at the joints. The rock that was used in the concrete is frigging huge, looks like 2" to 6" or larger, again, not normal for most construction types.

Filling the vertical wall section at the end of the broken spillway SOG with shotcrete without reinforcing with epoxy doweling rebar to key it in to the bedrock is a waist of expensive air placed concrete. Looks like they are filling 3'+ with shotcrete. No structural engineer would put their stamp in that without reinforcing steel. Its a bandaid, and not a very good one.

It's interesting that the video showed what the narrator said was SOG drainage pipe to relieve ground water. It looked to me like it was cast in to the SOG and was concrete pipe. I would bet that it was also segmented at the SOG cold joint locations. Also bet that it broke or separated and is the cause of the spillway failure. Makes me wonder where all that water was coming from though, water levels have been at historic lows for years.
I'm just an amateur armchair QB commenting on design and build. But it's looking like there were shortcuts taken when the spillway was built. Coupled with lack of protective maintenance over the years and we see the results when the structure was stressed to it's maximum capabilities.

To fix this dam right, it very well could require the entire spillway to be removed and rebuilt. They were very fortunate the damaged section was that far away from the dam. If it had happened close to the dam and the erosion backed up towards the dam. it could have set off a disaster.
 

SoCalDave

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This clip is from yesterday and the narrator seems to know what he is talking about.
The amount of debris they are trying to clear is unreal. I wounder how much this is costing us in the end. :eek

[video=youtube;IIJBdmVGMPw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIJBdmVGMPw[/video]
 

lake p.a.l.

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I hope they are prepared for some significant snow run-off the next 5 days. It's supposed to be at least mid 70's and only low 50's at night.
 

GRADS

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I'll be there either Monday or Tuesday, I can't wait to see this in person! Dayumm, thats agbig hole!:eek

I'm not sure how close you will be able to get to it. Honestly I have no idea. Just curious.
 

buck35

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I'm not sure how close you will be able to get to it. Honestly I have no idea. Just curious.

Yeah I'm not sure if can get anywhere near close enough to see anything , but what the hell . I'm going to be in the area and Its history in the making, no chance of not seeing it for an hour or two out of the way.:champagne:
 

Willie B

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...I am so glad that I am not at my place up there ...knowing what the area used to be like and having to look at it the way it is now plus with all the ensuing chaos that must be going on in town...again I'm glad I'm not there... sad deal ...admittedly it has been fascinating watching all the video from its inception up to the current state of affairs...
 

rrrr

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.

According to the news reports, the debris from the spillway failure in the river channel and surrounding area is estimated at half a billion cubic yards.

Suppose they moved all of this debris with a standard 39' aluminum frameless dump trailer. The trailer capacity is 46 cubic yards.

That works out to around 10.9 million loads. :eek
 

Willie B

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Yeah I'm not sure if can get anywhere near close enough to see anything , but what the hell . I'm going to be in the area and Its history in the making, no chance of not seeing it for an hour or two out of the way.:champagne:

...I'm going to PM you and give you what I think might be a pretty good vantage point that is if my memory serves me correctly and if the roads to it are still open...
 

rrrr

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They're kicking ass on this thing....


[video=youtube_https;5xa_Q1R7mGs]https://youtu.be/5xa_Q1R7mGs[/video]

.

IROC Dave, the rebar stubs are a result of jackhammering a clean line and then cutting the rebar back. They aren't dowels, because a dowel splice in that situation should be 40-60 X the rebar diameter.

As for the shotcrete, it's prolly being placed just to temporarily stabilize the soil and prevent further erosion if the rains return. They will be cutting back the slab in that area at least 100 feet to make a proper joint that's squared off. You can bet your ass the engineers are not taking shortcuts or bandaids.

The scale of this is incredible. It's amazing that the water had enough power to remove all of that concrete and scour the subbase fill down to bedrock.
 

Cray Paper

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This guy has done a great job of providing information about what is going on, and better yet, some history as to why things are, or did happen.

[video=youtube;_q0g43iI9kA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q0g43iI9kA[/video] FF through about half of it the video. He nailed it at the end, the people in charge are managing by crisis, not crisis management.
 

Willie B

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This guy has done a great job of providing information about what is going on, and better yet, some history as to why things are, or did happen.

[video=youtube;_q0g43iI9kA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q0g43iI9kA[/video] FF through about half of it the video. He nailed it at the end, the people in charge are managing by crisis, not crisis management.

... Google Juan Browne Grass Valley California...this guys education and accomplishments are quite impressive...you will see why he seems to understand structural engineering... he is also a commercial airline pilot the main guy for American Airlines..He should get a medal for what he's done reporting on the Oroville situation...
 

wsuwrhr

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My 350 yards and 22 full trucks seems like a pebble.

Brian


.

According to the news reports, the debris from the spillway failure in the river channel and surrounding area is estimated at half a billion cubic yards.

Suppose they moved all of this debris with a standard 39' aluminum frameless dump trailer. The trailer capacity is 46 cubic yards.

That works out to around 10.9 million loads. :eek
 

Rvrluvr

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.

According to the news reports, the debris from the spillway failure in the river channel and surrounding area is estimated at half a billion cubic yards.

Suppose they moved all of this debris with a standard 39' aluminum frameless dump trailer. The trailer capacity is 46 cubic yards.

That works out to around 10.9 million loads. :eek

1.5 tons per yard on avg. The kinda truck they will need to move all that will haul 23-25 tons each. I aint gonna do the math bit its a lot. They will end up setting up portable plants and crush material on site. Use some to fix things and sell the rest as finished mayerial to whomever. The crushing will go to the highest bidder & CA will make $$ off the whole deal
 

Tank

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That guy don't GAF.

What will happen to him?

He has already been kicked out once.

I was just about to post the exact same thing and then saw your post. He don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuck
 

spectra3279

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1.5 tons per yard on avg. The kinda truck they will need to move all that will haul 23-25 tons each. I aint gonna do the math bit its a lot. They will end up setting up portable plants and crush material on site. Use some to fix things and sell the rest as finished mayerial to whomever. The crushing will go to the highest bidder & CA will make $$ off the whole deal
No it won't make any money. They will spend more, and put more in their pockets than what it could ever make on the sale of the debris
 

Tank

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Isn't that new overflow route going to erode with all that water pressure blasting down it? Is this just a temporary fix or?????

What a cluster f*ck of epic proportions
 

Little Mr.C

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Been following this thread since the beginning. Went to school in Oroville the other year and lived there for about half a year. Weather channel just showed that they are running the main spillway again at 40,000 cfs trying to lower the lake level again. Weather is showing some rain in the forecast but doesn't look anything like what they got before. Are they dumping more water just as a precaution? Or checking to see how their "fixing" will hold up for the spillway.
 

FreeBird236

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Been following this thread since the beginning. Went to school in Oroville the other year and lived there for about half a year. Weather channel just showed that they are running the main spillway again at 40,000 cfs trying to lower the lake level again. Weather is showing some rain in the forecast but doesn't look anything like what they got before. Are they dumping more water just as a precaution? Or checking to see how their "fixing" will hold up for the spillway.


Both.

Watch the video on post #1183 it's the most current and really good.
 

buck35

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Been following this thread since the beginning. Went to school in Oroville the other year and lived there for about half a year. Weather channel just showed that they are running the main spillway again at 40,000 cfs trying to lower the lake level again. Weather is showing some rain in the forecast but doesn't look anything like what they got before. Are they dumping more water just as a precaution? Or checking to see how their "fixing" will hold up for the spillway.

Back up a page and see post 1185 , gives an excellent explanation of what they are doing, or trying to do .
 

TX Foilhead

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For the time being they more or less have a fixed rate they can spill water down that new canyon. There was some work done to keep things from getting worse and they aren't planning on putting enough water down it to cause a lot more erosion. Once the lake gets near the bottom of the flood gates they will stop before the current begins to erode the lakebed. At that point they will bring the heavy equipment back a dig out the channel again and move water through the power house.

This process will happen a few times, I haven't heard if they plan to have the lake full at the end or if they will continue to leave a good size buffer like they have now.
 

Willie B

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[video=youtube_https;kloT8RhiGDE]https://youtu.be/kloT8RhiGDE[/video]
 

RogerThat99

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This guy does updates every few days. He has great information in his videos. Here is the most recent one from yesterday...and discusses seeping in the main dam.


[video=youtube;881_j_FiWQo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=881_j_FiWQo[/video]
 
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