Carburetor question

Thanks. Ceramic coating at Embee Performance in Santa Ana.

Flyinbowtie said:

Really coming together nice. What did you wind up doing to preserve the polished stuff?

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👍

This is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to RDP!
Forget the drama threads,what could be better than a father/son carb swap project that turns into a full drivetrain rebuild?
Sweet build👍👍More pics!

Finally got her running today. I have a short video, but cannot upload it.

Here is a video of it...

She started on the first turn of the key with 80 pounds of oil pressure. She ran and sounded good for a few minutes, so we decided to break her in. After 30 minutes, we took off the valve covers and saw that several lifters appeared to have collapsed. We decided to take off the intake manifold and saw considerable wear on the cam and metal shavings in the valley, so we tore her down. Turns out that all but one cam lobe and lifter were destroy. In some cases, nearly 1/8 inch of the lifter and lobe were ground off, but no push rods were bent. We know all but one of the lifters failed to spin, but we do not know why.

I took the block, crankshaft, and heads in to be checked yesterday and we will find out in about one week if we did more damage. I hope we only destroyed the cam and lifters.

Very sad to see this please consider that this type failure is like a virus spreading like sneeze in a crowd , the entire engine is liklely and potentially suffered damaged (lubricated surfaces) and contaminated thruout with debris shed from the failed cam and lifters and will need to come apart , Not sure from your last post what oil, what additives and what assembly lube was used but cam failures like this are relatively uncommon anymore given proper installation and breakin Maybe describe what cam , what lifters what and how it was installed as well as info on the valve springs and their spring rates as well . The Critical moments in a fresh engine are those spent on cam breakin, One never wants to start an fresh engine equipt with a flat tappet cam and run it at all prior to the actual breakin process and even then the engine needs to start and run at a prescribed rpm for a prescribed period of time eg 2k rpm for 20 minutes (theories and procedures vary)

Condolences feel free to call for help Tom

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/ccrp_0702_break_in_new_cam/viewall.html

Ok to answer some questions...

The Engine assembled pretty smoothly with some minor hiccups nothing bad just finding parts like fuel pump eccentric, getting gaskets after removing water pump block off and timing cover to put on eccentric, and getting the right size nuts and bolts due to my OCD with ARP 12 pt. stainless.

Valve train geometry was done by Paul Kane, ordered parts and when engine was mounted in the boat I lubed and installed the lifters with the comp cams pro cam lube. (Cam was slathered with the lube when installed and more added with lifter installation it was dripping with the stuff) For each pushrod I rotated the engine and made sure cam was on base circle prior to installing the pushrods and rockers. As I installed the pushrods I made sure to lube the ends where they made contact with the lifters and rockers. After installing the pushrod I installed the rockers by tightening the nut until I saw the lifter start to depress, I then added a 1/4 turn of nut and locked it down? rinse and repeat 15 more times.

1. Oil : Penzoil 10W-30

2. Oil additive: COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive 159 with ZDDP

3. Cam assembly lube : COMP Cams Pro Cam Lube 153

4. Engine Assembly lube : Royal Purple Max-Tuff Assembly Lube 01335

5. Cam : Lunati 10340704LK
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 233/241
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .564/.582
LSA/ICL: 110/106
RPM Range: 2200-6400

6. Heads : Ford D3VE A2A
full port intake and exhaust
Stainless valves
Milled for 7/16 roller rocker studs
Dual springs
I believe I was told 125 spring psi. closed can't remember open psi waiting on info back from guy who built heads

7. Rockers : Crane Gold Race Extruded Rocker Arms 27750-1
Rocker Arm Mounting Style:Stud
Rocker Arm Ratio:1.73
Rocker Arm Style:Full roller
Stud Size:7/16 in.
Rocker Arm Material:Aluminum
Rocker Arm Body Style:Standard
Rocker Arm Nut Style: Polylock
Slot Width (in):0.600 in.
Maximum Spring Diameter (in):1.630 in

Initially the engine fired right up and sounded great, had to shut it down due to low oil pressure. Fixed oil pressure problem started second time had issues with timing. Fixed timing and did 30 min break in keeping rpm around 2k+ bumping throttle from time to time oil pressure was 80+psi at all times. Temperature never went over 160 deg. I heard some rocker noise towards end of break in.

After break in removed valve covers to adjust lash on rockers some rockers were very loose, and couldn't adjust properly. Removed intake manifold saw we had collapsed lifters and some metal debris in valley. All work stopped and engine was torn down to be sent out and cleaned and checked.

During the engine break down each part was checked for damage with special attention to the pushrods and Rockers. They showed no signs of damage or bending. The heads are at the shop getting checked.

If I missed anything let me know. If I don't know off the top of my head I will check my notes on the engine build.

goin5150
(73Mandella's son)

Initially the engine fired right up and sounded great, had to shut it down due to low oil pressure. Fixed oil pressure problem started second time had issues with timing. Fixed timing

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Personally don't care for Penns at all but that's another subject, honestly if your not paying $7 a quart for oil for these applications + your rolling the dice IMO , but more curious about how long total was the engine run in the first (oil pressure) and second (timing) episode prior to your 30 minute final; breakin procedure also did you do the breakin with the valve springs you listed ? Also what was the oil pressure issue and did you pre oil this beast ?

goin5150 said:

Initially the engine fired right up and sounded great, had to shut it down due to low oil pressure. Fixed oil pressure problem started second time had issues with timing. Fixed timing and did 30 min break in keeping rpm around 2k+ bumping throttle from time to time oil pressure was 80+psi at all times. Temperature never went over 160 deg. I heard some rocker noise towards end of break in.

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Two starts without being able to complete the cam break in may have been the cause of your problem.

It's always been stressed to me that the engine must fire immediately and run the full course of the break in without stopping, otherwise you wipe off the camshaft assembly lube. I personally don't like or use the Comp red cam lube, preferring to use old school Isky Rev Lube, which is a grey molybdenum disulfide type lube. That's not to say the red stuff doesn't work, lots of people use it, but it sure seems to drip off the camshaft easily.

Many people like to overfill the pan with an extra quart of oil, although it's not been something that I personally do either.

I also agree with Tom about oil quality, but the addition of the zddp additive should work. I also tend to use heavier weight oils for performance marine engines, and my bearing clearances are set up to work with the heavier oil. I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but it has worked well for me, and I do not think the oil was the cause of your problem.

Both starts prior to break were approx 1 min or less. The engine was primed before first start, and after first start.

During the first start we brought the engine to 2k for the break in and saw the oil was approx. 20 psi which concerned us. The engine was stopped to prevent any problems. We went through the oil system one more time and re primed the the system until we saw oil coming from the lifters once again.

Second start the engine didn't want to start right... Think it was too retarded. Checked the distributor and set the timing. After that engine was started for break in.

The 10 quart pan was filled with 10 quarts and 2 additive bottles, also both filters were filled prior to start.

As for the springs they were broke in. The clearances checked ok and they were functioning properly.

I have to get the 460 block tanked, cylinders honed, cam bearings installed, and the crank checked, honed, and bearings purchased. The guy I was going to use cannot touch the block for at least one month and that is too long. Does anyone have any recommendations within a 50 mile radius (or so) from Bellflower, CA?

Thanks

73mandella said:

I have to get the 460 block tanked, cylinders honed, cam bearings installed, and the crank checked, honed, and bearings purchased. The guy I was going to use cannot touch the block for at least one month and that is too long. Does anyone have any recommendations within a 50 mile radius (or so) from Bellflower, CA?

Thanks

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Barry (obnoxious001) on the boards. He has done many members engines .

Thanks. I'll send him a PM. He has already given us a lot of help so far.

Hammer said:

Barry (obnoxious001) on the boards. He has done many members engines .

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73mandella said:

I have to get the 460 block tanked, cylinders honed, cam bearings installed, and the crank checked, honed, and bearings purchased. The guy I was going to use cannot touch the block for at least one month and that is too long. Does anyone have any recommendations within a 50 mile radius (or so) from Bellflower, CA?

Thanks

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I will respond to your PM, but wanted to point out in the thread that I personally hand wash each block that I put together, whether it's been tanked or not. I normally only pay to tank a block that has run for a long time and is dirty, or if I want the exterior paint removed. I recognize that you have material in your block, and getting the block "tanked" may get most of that out, but I am just old fashioned about that aspect of engine assembly. I do install cam bearings myself after the block has been washed, so if you don't have the cam bearing installation tool it kind of tosses a monkey wrench into the deal.

Hammer said:

Barry (obnoxious001) on the boards. He has done many members engines .

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Thanks Mike

Now who would have one of those. Hmmmm.

rivermobster said:

Now who would have one of those. Hmmmm.

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Most backyard garage guys don't, but I did suggest he call Mike about machine work and mention my name so I could get my kickback.

Well, it is almost done. We will take it to Elsinore on Monday for her fist day in the water. Here are a couple before and after pictures. It looks great and on Monday we will see how she runs.

Thanks to everyone from River Dave?s who helped!

Not completely satisfied with the results of the engine build so we picked up these today. We are going to get a baseline on the engine on Tuesday and then install the Lightening headers. Not much left to do after that than aluminum heads, a roller cam, or change the impeller.

Lightening header mock-up. Doesn't look bad, if I say so myself.

We decided to make another change and installed some Trick Flow comp heads and it is headed to Westech Performance in morning. I hope the work is reflected in the numbers.

AWESOME THREAD!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Okay...Got it back from the dyno. The guys at Westech were great. They worked on the engine all day, tuned the carbs, set the distributor timing, and found a leak in the intake manifold gasket. The results were not what we were hoping for, but it is what we have. We'll get it in the boat in the next couple weeks and try it out at Elsinore. The last time out all we managed to get was a little over 5100 rpm and 60 mph.

Great thread!!!

Screw the lounge, wish we had more of this stuff.

Great stuff right here! :thumbup:

Not sure about everything said, but you guys are my heroes. I'd have been hanging from the rafters long ago. Yes, just a great thread.

We had one good day at the lake with the rebuild. It ran 73 mph with the 554 hp, 460 Ford, and "B" impeller; unfortunately, we heard a knock on the last run. It turned out to be a spun bearing. Since we had to rebuild, we decided to go for 700 hp. The block was bored out and we installed a 3/8" stroker kit making it 532 cubic inches. We didn't get 700 hp, but came close with 691.7 hp at 6000 rpm and hope it holds together. We also replaced the "B" impeller with an "A" impeller. We'll be at Elsinore on New Year's day for the first run.


View attachment 460 dyno number 2.pdf

Great day at Weekend Paradise in Lake Elsinore on New Year's Day! We were the only jet there, but no one seemed to mind; everyone was great. The weather was cold (high 40's to low 50's), no wind, and the lake was mostly glass. We had several runs and the engine ran great. We went 75 mph on the first couple runs and had to cut it short due to steering issues. Fixed the steering and managed a couple 87 mph runs (on GPS) before the end of the day. I'd say the engine build worked. I have a video and will post it once I figure out how to do it.

[video=youtube;6v7BCQft9Is]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7BCQft9Is&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Raw Video
[video=youtube;fUAZ1A2_Z6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAZ1A2_Z6E"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAZ1A2_Z6E[/video]