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Southwind - can o worms - hull reinforcement

Roosta

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Hi All,

18' Southwind Mini Day
Long story short - got boat out of storage - fuel leak - decided to fix 'soft floor' since I had the interior out - found rotten stringer and rotten rear bulkhead...

I replaced the keel stringer and bulkheads, but while I have the floor off, I decided to take a look below and fix any issues with the hull...
Found the strakes were cracked in the same spot on both sides...

I'm not 100% sure what caused this to happen, but I believe its a combination of several factors. Either way, I really don't want this to happen again after I get everything put back together... I think there's a need for more structural support.

I beefed up the fiberglass, but I was considering either adding stringers or more 'floor supports'? Any feedback is welcome.
 

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Headless hula

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It depends on how far you're willing to take it.
Bulkheads every 2' with drains at the corners, fully fileted and tabbed? How many wake board wakes are you going to smash through? Any boat can be left good enough, or be taken to the complete extreme. Your call.

How thick of a floor are you going to put in it?
The more bulkheads, or frames, or whatever you want to call the members perpendicular to the stringer, the thinner the thickness of the floor you'll need.

How squishy do you want it?
 

Headless hula

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The more "gridwork" you add , the stiffer it will become.
However, the trade off is weight.
 

Roosta

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The more "gridwork" you add , the stiffer it will become.
However, the trade off is weight.

Thanks for the advice. For the floor I was planning on 1/2" marine plywood with 2 layers of biaxial 1708 on top. 1/2" is what came out.

What do yo think about adding lengthwise stringers instead of the bulkheads? Was thinking I could continue from the motor mounts forward and tie in to the front bulkhead. Any opinion on which is better?
Either way its a lot of work and I'm going to do it right. I plan on keeping the boat. I've had it close to 20 years now. It's part of the family.
 

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Headless hula

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Maybe think about a layer of csm first, then a layer of biax on each side of the plywood.
 

Headless hula

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Something else to consider might be using some 1/2" plywood as the bulkheads with another intermediate "stringer piece between the bulkheads. It probably doesn't have to be a full blown stringer, but like a grid. The bugger is doing all the fitting, grinding, filleting, and tabbing so that it all holds together. All the frames should be laminated before they get put in. It's a shit ton of work.
 

Headless hula

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I know from first hand experience that 3/8" plywood that's been laminated on each side with csm and 1 layer of 1808 biax is INCREDIBLY stong.

Like a fat guy jump on it and it lives strong...
 

Headless hula

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With that lamination, a 2' grid will be a REALLY nice floor.
It'll also tie the hull together really well too if you glass it down to the "grid"
You'll be using sand bags, concrete block, cylinder heads, etc to weigh it down as it kicks...

You can use marglass to hold the frames in place, then resin and spheres to make the fillets, sandING amd grinding in between all those steps. The less lumps and imperfections you have, the better the glass lays down.
A bondo spreader can be cut down to use as a forming tool. And also, cake decorating bags for applying the "fillet" material makes it a TON less messy. The neater you do the job, the less sanding and grinding there is.
 

Roosta

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I know from first hand experience that 3/8" plywood that's been laminated on each side with csm and 1 layer of 1808 biax is INCREDIBLY stong.

Like a fat guy jump on it and it lives strong...

Yeah, I was thinking that a coat of epoxy underneath would be good for waterproofing, but I like the idea of glassing both sides.

The 1/2 plywood grid system, that may be a bit too much for me...

I was hoping to get it back on the water before the season's end.... :smackhead
 

Headless hula

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I just noticed something after looking at the picture.
If it were mine, I'd have a drain hole in the bulkhead on either side of the stringer. Drill it out, and then resin the crap out of the hole to seal the wood.
 

Headless hula

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That bottom doesn't have a wooden core in it does it?
 

Roosta

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That bottom doesn't have a wooden core in it does it?

Yeah I'm planning on putting drains in the rear bulkhead. and the front one too... I saw a post where someone put good size drains in and used removable plugs to seal it off from the bilge. I kinda like that idea...

No wooden core. just fiberglass lay up. it's a bit thinner than I was expecting. It really does need some more support under there. I'm sure if I just glassed in the floor it would stiffen it up a bit, but not enough IMO... I think it will just crack again.
 

Headless hula

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Right. Maybe something else to consider before all those stringers amd bulkheads would be to add a couple layers of biax over a layer of csm on the entire bottom. Grinding the entire surface first, of course. ...

Then, put in whatever framework you decide, then a floor.
After all that, you'll have something that'll take some abuse. And a greater appreciation of laminators!
 

Headless hula

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Yea, you could absolutely resin in some brass bilge drain sleeves, that'd be a nice way of treating the hole!
 

Headless hula

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Check out "zek" grinding wheels.
I think it's a silicone carbide material.
They work very nice and will outlast almost any other abrasive disk out there. They're around 6-8 bucks each for a 4". They also come in 16 grit. If you don't abuse it, 1 wheel will last your whole project. Just don't try and use it as a slicer type wheel. It's for grinding. Not cutting.
Also, get a decent respirator. Don't fool with the cheapo drywall type dust mask. Fiberglass dust in your lungs is no joke. Tyvek suits, 9mil nitrile gloves, etc...
Stir sticks, paint cups, deli cups, whatever. You'll need a shit ton of them. If you have resin left in a cup, that you can't use and it's been kicked, put it outside away from combustibles. It gets HOT!
Hate to see you burn down your boat, or leave a big brown scorch mark by being careless.
 

Roosta

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I'm definitely filling in the strakes so everything will lay flat.

Yea it's not easy going... especially working under the bow... That's why I want to get it done right, don't want to repeat this project any time soon.

Learning a ton about glassing though. Huge help from online boat forums and the West System manual is also a great resource.

Picking up new tanks tomorrow. and will start laying out the floor structure so I can figure out what material's needed.

Appreciate the help.
 

Headless hula

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Post pictures and post often!
Good luck!
 

Jimmy

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Following this one for sure. Good luck.
 

Headless hula

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Oh, one more thing before I crash tonight, fit all your glass before you resin it. It's tempting to do a layer, just to do it. DONT! use a scissors, cut and fit ALL your glass. Then do it all at once. You should be able to cut all of it in a day, then laminate it all in another day.

Check out express composites in Minnesota. Great people to work with, and great material too. They're on the interwebs. They'll have the rollers youll be needing too. Also see if yup can find acetone in 5 gallon cans, it's cheaper in bulk. Get a sealable can for your waste too.
 

Headless hula

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I found that the bondo spreaders work really good on flat stuff

For me they seemed to pull the strands of csm. They also distorted the fibers on biax, I had better luck with the rollers for getting the trapped air out. I thought they worked awesome for creating the shape of the filets. Cheap too. If you trash one, no big deal. A 3 pack is only a couple bucks. Also the rollers were inexpensive too. 8 or bucks each. If you clean em up, they'll last. Used cheapo harbor freight chip brushes by the box full. Used em for cleaning the roller too!
 

Jimmy

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For me they seemed to pull the strands of csm. They also distorted the fibers on biax, I had better luck with the rollers for getting the trapped air out. I thought they worked awesome for creating the shape of the filets. Cheap too. If you trash one, no big deal. A 3 pack is only a couple bucks. Also the rollers were inexpensive too. 8 or bucks each. If you clean em up, they'll last. Used cheapo harbor freight chip brushes by the box full. Used em for cleaning the roller too!
Yeah just a 2L pot with a 300ml mix of resin and chip brush. I used a fin roller for 5 mins and ended up throwing it.
 

Headless hula

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Screenshot_2016-09-08-01-06-14.jpg
Roller in one hand, chip brush in the other...lol.

Really helped in removing air pockets and small bubbles from behind the glass. Trapped air is bad. It's a void that isn't bonded to the layer behind it. The roller also helps remove excess resin, as to much is not a good thing either.
 

Roosta

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Thanks for all the advice. When i put in the stringer I tried the brush, roller and plastic spreader. For whatever reason the plastic spreader seemed to work good for me. Made some progress this weekend. Got a really nice kiln dried 2x8 that is super light, not much weight is going to be added aside from the glass & resin. The real weight killer is the new tanks. They're way thicker gauge than the originals, but should never have a tank problem again...

Did some work prepping the bottom side of the cracks too...
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Roosta

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Here's some work done to the cracks... almost ready to start glassing the bottom side. Not looking forward to dodging dripping resin... Think I'm going to wet out the glass on the bench. A little nerve racking to grind large holes in the bottom of your boat... The driver side has been repaired before I owned it, so I'm feeling good about beefing up the bottom structure.

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I'm liking your added structure, it will definitely make a difference, as long as you add enough layers to obtain the strength by tying your new structure in. HeadlessHula is spot on, as we just went through all of this on my boat, structure and all. I really would advise to add double-biax if you can get it, the strength of 2-3 layers of that stuff is substantial. One layer on each side of 3/8" marine plywood will allow me to stand on it across an 18" spread...

Keep digging, looking good.
 

AzGeo

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I'm sorry you are following the path these 'experts' have given you . Unless you want a 'weak battleship' ..................
 

Backlash

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George I don't know if I am following you..... What do you mean??

On another note, I'm just wondering why there only seems to be one "Stringer" in the hull.... I've seen the center stringer design before on other applications but usually in concert with two or four additional stringers.....

As you know, I appreciate your wisdom and your expertise and I would love to hear your thoughts on this project. I'm sure the owner would too.

Thank you in advance!

Henry
 

Headless hula

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And if there waa only ONE way to do something, there'd only be ONE boat manufacturer. Maybe instead of pissing in people's cheerios, offer up some advice.

Your sarcasm is silly.

Someone posts a question, then you love to wait for people to offer their opinions, then call them all morons. Standard m.o.

All hail king George.

Maybe, you could say something a little more constructive.
How about, well, this is another way to accomplish the task you are attempting, instead of what was offered, because of whatever reason you dream up to belittle someone.

Jeez man.
It's old.
 

Headless hula

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In the mean time, please explain how your method, choice of materials,etc is so superior.

Or DRY UP AND BLOW AWAY.

Either way.
 

Roosta

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I'm sorry you are following the path these 'experts' have given you . Unless you want a 'weak battleship' ..................

I'm just not sure what to do with this Pearl of Wisdom.
 

Roosta

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I'm liking your added structure, it will definitely make a difference, as long as you add enough layers to obtain the strength by tying your new structure in. HeadlessHula is spot on, as we just went through all of this on my boat, structure and all. I really would advise to add double-biax if you can get it, the strength of 2-3 layers of that stuff is substantial. One layer on each side of 3/8" marine plywood will allow me to stand on it across an 18" spread...

Keep digging, looking good.

Thanks, I have 1708 biaxial that should do the trick.
 

Headless hula

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Wondering if that originally had 2 stringers in it, and some
previous owner removed them? Have you seen the inside of other boats?
 

Roosta

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Wondering if that originally had 2 stringers in it, and some
previous owner removed them? Have you seen the inside of other boats?

I think this was the way it was built. There isn't a lot of room under the floor for more lengthwise stringers. There was obviously a design flaw for it to crack in the same spot on both sides, and because it's been repaired there before. I think I'm on the right path........... I'm not going to second guess it at this point because the unhelpful guy decided to chime in with his B.S. comment. It feels solid already with just the wood filleted in place.

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Jimmy

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I think this was the way it was built. There isn't a lot of room under the floor for more lengthwise stringers. There was obviously a design flaw for it to crack in the same spot on both sides, and because it's been repaired there before. I think I'm on the right path........... I'm not going to second guess it at this point because the unhelpful guy decided to chime in with his B.S. comment. It feels solid already with just the wood filleted in place.

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And ya wouldn't know how far the last guy went to fix it neither. Like he might have just slapped some fiberglass on the crack and sent it on its way.
Does it look like where the old stringers are or bulk heads that they could cause hard spots.
Or maybe there's too much of a gap between the bulkheads.

Putting the deck in will stiffen it up a bit.
 

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Roosta

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There weren't any bulk heads under there before, so I think it may have been caused by too much panel flex.
Plus the stringer was half rotten, so that didn't help... the floor wasn't attached to the center stringer either. you could see under the floor where the stringer was rubbing.
Maybe they were counting on the foam under the floor to hold it together?....
 

Jimmy

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There weren't any bulk heads under there before, so I think it may have been caused by too much panel flex.
Plus the stringer was half rotten, so that didn't help... the floor wasn't attached to the center stringer either. you could see under the floor where the stringer was rubbing.
Maybe they were counting on the foam under the floor to hold it together?....
That's the word I was looking for panel flex.
That'll be the trick for this repair is to get the floor sitting flush with the stinger and where it meets the hull. But by the looks your all over it, looks good.

I can't see the point of the foam the way I see it, it's just a big Sponge holding water to rot everything out again.
I'd just have drain holes and let it all drain out but it may not work with the stringer down the guts.
 

coolchange

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Just a couple of thoughts here. I've cut into a few of those and have never seen a 1/2" floor. Also to think of.this as a floor is kind of erroneous. It is one side of a triangle of strength and a major structural component of that hull.
 

Roosta

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Just a couple of thoughts here. I've cut into a few of those and have never seen a 1/2" floor. Also to think of.this as a floor is kind of erroneous. It is one side of a triangle of strength and a major structural component of that hull.

Are they usually 3/8" or 3/4"?

Part of the floor had been replaced before, but under the bow in front of the partition was the original floor, and it's definitely 1/2".
 

Outdrive1

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The way it was built before, the foam and floor were part of the stringer and structural integrity.

This is the way all the 10' schiadas were built and all the bottoms crack.

What I usually do with them is cut the floor out, remove the foam. Add a couple of layers of mat, then add two more stringers length wise (same direction as the original stringer) and then glass the floor back in.
 

Outdrive1

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I'm not 100 percent sure that putting the little bulkheads are going to make those panels rigid. The problem is that your old foam and old floor made that entire area act as one unit. The boat will be stronger with your added mat but it's still a secondary bond and if it flex's it's going to fail. It happens in the little boats I've fixed too. Putting the foam back is really the best way structurally to do it although I hate foam and the fact that any leaks just water log the entire boat.
 

Roosta

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well, i was on the fence with lengthwise vs crosswise...
i can tell the panels are much stiffer. Once the floor is glassed in I think it will be solid.

I had pretty much decided not to put the foam back in for the water log reasons, but for structural integrity maybe I should re-think that.
 

AzGeo

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And if there waa only ONE way to do something, there'd only be ONE boat manufacturer. Maybe instead of pissing in people's cheerios, offer up some advice.

Your sarcasm is silly.

Someone posts a question, then you love to wait for people to offer their opinions, then call them all morons. Standard m.o.

All hail king George.

Maybe, you could say something a little more constructive.
How about, well, this is another way to accomplish the task you are attempting, instead of what was offered, because of whatever reason you dream up to belittle someone.

Jeez man.
It's old.

So no matter what I say NOW, it's already a DONE DEAL ! I can't undo it !

I CALLED NO ONE ANY NAMES . YOU are the ONE who 'flies off the handle' at every little thing .

YOU seem to be the real 'cry baby here' , I put in a short comment and YOU didn't like it . I have not made any comments on your boat/project, I have tried to 'steer clear', and not make any un-needed waves .

Had anyone who has worked on old Southwind's (your most hated west coast experts) been asked BEFORE ALL THE WORK WAS DONE, any one of them would have explained that the strength needs to go 'front to rear', and those strakes/hull broke because of the SEATING WEIGHT . A boat full of passengers bouncing over rough water .

Both Southwind and Gem Craft laid the hulls up THIN, and those with '1/2 stingers' ALWAYS had failures . This hull first needed more material in the bottom, all over the bottom .

The overall strength in a fiberglass hull (like this one) comes in it's ability to withstand 'impacts in small zones', and distribute that force throughout the entire structure, in an EVEN MANNER . Those little (left and right) triangular bulkheads will concentrate impacts, (once attached to the wood floor) and in between them you will have 'stressed areas' and near them you will have 'stress cracks' . (foam under the floor will slow the distruction, just as it did in the original build)

After all this 'custom work' is done you will still need to address the weak area at the front of the 1/2 stringers' to the 'T floor', and the thin areas along side of the '1/2 stringers' and the fuel tanks .

As built, the sides of the hull and the 'combings' are all that holds the front of the '1/2 stingers' up .

As built, the sides (combings) had NO bulkheads to hold them up . As built, the sides of the deck were held up by 'the fuel filler hose', and the TWO 1/4" studs that held the seats to the side of the deck . That's all there was when new .

This has been a LOT of dirty, hard work, and I can't understand why this boat did not get 'full stringers' in the first place . Now, it has a bunch of extra weight, and some of the most critical structural problems have not YET been addressed .

Hence, my original small post .

Lucky Mr Hula is here to save the day .














Curves and radii give fiberglass construction 'inherent strength', flat surfaces of fiberglass lamination offer 'flexibility', but little strength, so 'long stringers', and 'long bulkheads', are added to the structure to help SPREAD OUT the STRESSES .
 

Headless hula

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the bear, something good may come of it.
Apparently it has.


Thank you George.

Look, there isn't a doubt about your serious knowledge of your craft. I'd just wish you'd come across better.
Maybe as more time passes I'll (and others) may find it easier to interpret your comments.

For what it's worth,
Thank you.
-Sean
 

coolchange

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Are they usually 3/8" or 3/4"?

Part of the floor had been replaced before, but under the bow in front of the partition was the original floor, and it's definitely 1/2".

Well based on others it sounds like they did this and used foam. I've never come across it as 1/2 and Definatly would not replace it with same. Definatly 3/4 and make sure its tabbed in solid. Agree the bulk heads are stress points. Took this set up out of a Tahiti once and put stringers in it. Let the bottom sag a little and took the hook out and added a little rocker. Boat picked up a lot of speed but wouldn't turn LOL.
 

AzGeo

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progress goes very slowly when all of us are pulling in different directions .

As I understand boating web sites, if you post anything, it is subject to everyone's comments and opinions .

I've posted in here with photos and text on; house repairs, engines, boats, hulls, modifications, cars, trucks, and even politics .

Once I put it out there, it's all up for everyone to comment or whatever .

I don't claim to know everything, but what I have done, I do know, and it has always turned out to work well, or even better than new . Often I 'over-build', and I will cling to that as ONE of my personal FLAWS . IF you bring your boat to me, I'm in control . I'll answer ALL of your questions, but all the work will be done MY WAY, or leave . If I say "100 MPH" you can take that to the bank .

Posting on the net, asking for help is a good place to start, but this is where you need to find ONE shop, ONE person, ONE expert, and stick with just ONE . Mixing 10 opinions, and 10 methods will result in "1/10th" of a good job .

IMO, there are so many things that SHOULD be done BEFORE doing structural glass work (stringers, bulkheads, floors) on any 'scooped out' hull, that I cringe every time I read one of these project threads .

IMO, the professionals who do this kind of work at 'upper to middle of the road quality', are not charging enough, and yet some would still rather 'save money' and do it themselves .

OK, go ahead do it . Ask around the net, get a bunch of 'responses', dive in and SAVE MONEY .

But, just like getting a 'heart transplant in a strip mall Dr's office', a lot of the 'details' get overlooked .

Those boats 'ran good' because they were LIGHT, more unproductive weight, less performance .

The hull needs to be on a 'level surface/dolly/board fixture' . This must be LEVEL, so as to keep the hull/bottom, SQUARE . Do the inside structural and then FLIP it over and do the cosmetic (gel) and FIX the HOOK, in the riding surfaces . Sitting on it's own trailer, is just not adequate .

I want to HELP PEOPLE to learn how all this stuff has worked for me, you may disagree and that is OK too .

SURE, there are many methods to do most everything, but I don't give 'advise' on subjects that I have not done myself . I don't 'guess', should you agree with me or not .

There was a guy on here a few months ago who had a Tahiti I rebuilt in 1980 . (the same design as the Southwind here) It was a jet and I rebuilt it into an outboard with a 200 HP on a bracket . He bought the boat last year, with a 300 HP on it and it did NOT FALL APART . (over all those years) The paint and seats were done, but the structure held intact, even with the 'overpowering abuse' .

Powerboating CAN be a dangerous hobby, how you approach it, and how you respect it, will directly make a difference in how much fun or trouble you have doing it .

My feelings are not hurt, read my sig line below ..........
 

Outdrive1

Outdrive1 Marine Sales https://www.outdrive1.com/
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Well George like myself learned from trial and error. I'm always for learning something that someone else has had success with. I've probably done a handful of mini Schiadas with the same setup.
 

Roosta

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This is a project that has snow balled, the more I dig into it the more problems I find. This all started from a leaking gas tank, which is a pretty easy project for me. Next thing I know I'm trying to improve the structural reinforcement of the boat.

Sooo.... I have em epoxied in and filleted. Haven't glassed them yet though.
Question now is should I try to bust em loose and put in stringers longways, or could I put wood in between the bulkheads going lengthwise, or just go with foam and call it a day...

Anyone ever try to remove fresh expoxied bulkheads?
 

Jimmy

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This is a project that has snow balled, the more I dig into it the more problems I find. This all started from a leaking gas tank, which is a pretty easy project for me. Next thing I know I'm trying to improve the structural reinforcement of the boat.

Sooo.... I have em epoxied in and filleted. Haven't glassed them yet though.
Question now is should I try to bust em loose and put in stringers longways, or could I put wood in between the bulkheads going lengthwise, or just go with foam and call it a day...

Anyone ever try to remove fresh expoxied bulkheads?
If it were me I'd ditch the foam and do 4 inch stringers where it would sit flush with the floor and hull. But I'm no guru and let's be honest it'll probably last the time you've got it.
 
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