Trump lifts ban on import of Ivory

[rivermobster]

No...like he said...he posts it twice....he must be trying to earn Bonus Points or something..

Yeah, i don't get that either.

What kinna childish BS is that??? Just trying to get a rise outa someone???

Some peoples kids...

 

[rrrr]

Oh no! It looks like I was wrong about something on the internet! I'm going to hang my head in shame and think about forum suicide.

Will RD change my screen name? It's going to take hours to make up some excuse for this.

I'll blame it on nganga because I didn't read his post correctly. I misread that all important second sentence. You can bring it home but you can't sell it.

Lucky for me Trump changed his mind. But I'm disgraced.

What would a liberal do if he was in my shoes? I know...

LOOK! Over there! It's a shiny object!

The Ivory trade wasn't legalized. What Trump (USFWS) did was turn around an Ivory importation ban that Dan Ashe, Obama's USFWS director installed. You still cannot sell ivory. Not even legally hunted, imported. It's yours for life. Your heirs can inherit it, that's all.

So, guys that have hunted Elephants since the ban can now get their Ivory to their homes. The future hunted Ivory will get here sooner. More people will book hunts, more anti poaching money=less poached Elephants.

 

[Stainless]

Oh no! It looks like I was wrong about something on the internet! I'm going to hang my head in shame and think about forum suicide.

Will RD change my screen name? It's going to take hours to make up some excuse for this.

I'll blame it on nganga because I didn't read his post correctly. I misread that all important second sentence. You can bring it home but you can't sell it.

Lucky for me Trump changed his mind. But I'm disgraced.

What would a liberal do if he was in my shoes? I know...

LOOK! Over there! It's a shiny object!

Sorry you your reading comprehension is lacking.

 

[rrrr]

Sorry you your reading comprehension is lacking.

Yeah, I'm really disappointed in myself. The good news is that I allow myself to make one mistake a month, and it looks like I can breeze the rest of November without risking another.

 

[530RL]

LOL

Dan Bilzerian has a thought.......

https://www.yahoo.com/style/dan-bilzerian-taken-ruthless-shot-090507129.html

 

[Sandlord]

LOL

Dan Bilzerian has a thought.......

https://www.yahoo.com/style/dan-bilzerian-taken-ruthless-shot-090507129.html

sounds good to me.

 

[Stainless]

LOL

Dan Bilzerian has a thought.......

https://www.yahoo.com/style/dan-bilzerian-taken-ruthless-shot-090507129.html

“Dudes with small dicks...”
Lmfao!

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I'll just leave this here....

https://www.outsideonline.com/22626...&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=onsiteshare

 

[LHeym500]

Gentlemen: I was invited to this forum by Mr. Steve. Let me first say I have never hunted elephant. However, I would tomorrow if finance and practically allowed. I am also not yet thirty.

I gre up in a squirrel and deer hunting family. My father died only getting to shoot at one deer. He never killed one. There simply was and is not a lot of deer in S.Ky. I have done some international hunting.

On elephant hunting and trophy hunting in general, I think one needs to realize some universal truths. These apply regardless if the game is deer or elephants.

Africa operates on a modified version of the North American model of conservation. At the beginning of the 20th century market hunting and unregulated hunting had destroyed game populations on North America. Deer, elk, bear, pronghorn, bison, etc were virtually extinct across much of their range. Names such as Theodore Roosevelt created a hunting etich with emphasis on fair chase, protected seasons, game managed for the amount of graze that was available.

This began the area of trophy hunting. Taking only a limited surplus of older large males. Using funds generated from this pursuit to set aside land and fund professional animal management. Think the Pickman Act. The term trophy was used because under the rules of fair chase that old male elk, bear, ra, or buck was an accomplishment to be proud of and he was large. The data taken from this hunting showed the scientific community what an animal could mature into.

Now thanks to trophy hunting. I have killed elk in Kentucky. An animal that was extinct in Ky before Daniel Boone died. I also killed two deer in eastern KY. A herd that was transplanted with dollars raised from trophy hunting from Wisconsin.

Expanding this to Africa. The elephant targeted by trophy hunting brings thousands of doLars to infdgenious populations and thousands of piunds of meat. Think of feed the hungry programs in the US.

The obvious rebutle is raise the African standard of living. Two problems with this. If you want wild places with large wild animals you cannot have modern society. Think of it this way the destruction of the plains bison was awful. But you could not have modern agriculture of grid farms, feed the US population, and cities like St. Louis if 1 million 2000 pound bison were roaming at large.

In Western KY you van kill unlimited number of does. The farmers there hate them bc of ag damage. They have the ag production in the short term to support such killing.

Now what if you were a substance farmer in Zimbabwe since Jan, 2017 inflation has rise. 200 percent what money you do have will not by toilet paper. A herd of 14,000 pound deer come through and destroy your corn patch. This is the reality rural Africa faces daily. So, you take to poaching that puts about 300 dollars US in your pocket for every elephant killed. And you kill everything that moves, cows, calves, immature bulls, breeding bulls, and old bulls. Pretty soon there are no elephant. An example would be the Selous. In 2012, World Wildlife Fund estimated there were 65,000 elephant in the Selous. After the ban, there maybe 20,000 elephant.

We have touched on the second problem. Game cannot exist anywhere in unlimited ranges and numbers anymore. We must think about concentration of game in relatively small areas. The land set aside as wild in Africa, like in the US, is paid for by the select trophy hunting of non breeding Bulls. Bull elephant libpbe to be about 60 years old, just like deer his tusk get larger with age. But unlike a five year old deer we all would shot in a heat beat, a equally old elephant is not breeding. His death does not effect the growth of the population.

Most of us shoot 2 and 3 year old bucks. There is nothing wrong with that, but those are breeding animals. Breeding elephants are not hunted by sport, trophy hunters. When you kill that 2 or 3 year old deer you are preventing the growth of your local deer population. Sort hunters taking elephant do not prevent herd growth.

Elephant at the end of the day are no more than big pigs. The elephant killed through trophy hunting are going to die a painful starvation death when he loses his last set of teeth. He cannot chew. The meat will not be used by the local population.

How many of you have shot an old deer as a mercy killing. Maybe you ate it maybe you said he was too old and tough. I have no issue with that. However, every trophy, bull elephant is a mercy killing. The local African will eat everything including the fat off the organs.

Finally, we all know what a bunch of deer hunting or coons in the corn patch will do. Think of those West KY farmers who can kill unlimited does. Now, elephants are also nothing but big tractors. In a popular region in Zimbabwe and Botswana Chore (spelling) the elephant have turned the land into a desert. It use to be forest. Lesser animals such as bushbuck cannot be found. The elephant has destroyed the habbitat. Now, sport hunting bulls cannot reduce these numbers. But, it did pay for underground water wells to be built and run contentiously. This artificiality supported the habbitat in spite of the elephants That is until the bans came. The professional hunting outfitters no longer had the revenue from the bull elephants to keep the pumps going. The wells had to be cut off, and the ecosystem finally collapsed. And yes, poachers have now found Botswana.

At the high number the international body that awarded permits for bull elephant in Zimbabwe awarded only 125 permits from a population estimated between 75k and 125k animals. This was as of 2012.

I am not saying you or I need to hunt elephant. I will not shoot does in SE Ky. But, put me in the bluegrass region or western part of the state and I will. But, we need to realize we are no different. An elephant is nothing more than a large deer. He maybe harder to hunt. He is a lot bigger, but he is meat. Meat that is eaten. He is an animal that will destroy his habitat and local agricultural if left unmanaged.

And just like deer in North America at the turn of the 20th century market hunting will extinguish him and the wild places he represents. Sport hunting can and will save him, just like sport hunting saves deer, elk, bear, and proghorn.

 

[Stainless]

^ Welcome LHeym
First I notice you edited out Steve’s last name, I suspect that was at his urging. That also makes me think he had a hand in writing your post, not that there’s anything wrong with that but it makes me think this is a bit of a revenge post for Steve?

I’m going to make one point as I believe that’s all there is in this subject and that is Elephant population is declining. Albeit poaching is taking a serious toll it’s simple math. You have 10 elephants, 3 are poached, 1 is killed for Sport Trophy Hunting and 1 dies from other.
Now you have 5 elephants.
Elephants are a threatened species!

 

[was thatguy]

Gentlemen: I was invited to this forum by Mr. Steve. Let me first say I have never hunted elephant. However, I would tomorrow if finance and practically allowed. I am also not yet thirty.

I gre up in a squirrel and deer hunting family. My father died only getting to shoot at one deer. He never killed one. There simply was and is not a lot of deer in S.Ky. I have done some international hunting.

On elephant hunting and trophy hunting in general, I think one needs to realize some universal truths. These apply regardless if the game is deer or elephants.

Africa operates on a modified version of the North American model of conservation. At the beginning of the 20th century market hunting and unregulated hunting had destroyed game populations on North America. Deer, elk, bear, pronghorn, bison, etc were virtually extinct across much of their range. Names such as Theodore Roosevelt created a hunting etich with emphasis on fair chase, protected seasons, game managed for the amount of graze that was available.

This began the area of trophy hunting. Taking only a limited surplus of older large males. Using funds generated from this pursuit to set aside land and fund professional animal management. Think the Pickman Act. The term trophy was used because under the rules of fair chase that old male elk, bear, ra, or buck was an accomplishment to be proud of and he was large. The data taken from this hunting showed the scientific community what an animal could mature into.

Now thanks to trophy hunting. I have killed elk in Kentucky. An animal that was extinct in Ky before Daniel Boone died. I also killed two deer in eastern KY. A herd that was transplanted with dollars raised from trophy hunting from Wisconsin.

Expanding this to Africa. The elephant targeted by trophy hunting brings thousands of doLars to infdgenious populations and thousands of piunds of meat. Think of feed the hungry programs in the US.

The obvious rebutle is raise the African standard of living. Two problems with this. If you want wild places with large wild animals you cannot have modern society. Think of it this way the destruction of the plains bison was awful. But you could not have modern agriculture of grid farms, feed the US population, and cities like St. Louis if 1 million 2000 pound bison were roaming at large.

In Western KY you van kill unlimited number of does. The farmers there hate them bc of ag damage. They have the ag production in the short term to support such killing.

Now what if you were a substance farmer in Zimbabwe since Jan, 2017 inflation has rise. 200 percent what money you do have will not by toilet paper. A herd of 14,000 pound deer come through and destroy your corn patch. This is the reality rural Africa faces daily. So, you take to poaching that puts about 300 dollars US in your pocket for every elephant killed. And you kill everything that moves, cows, calves, immature bulls, breeding bulls, and old bulls. Pretty soon there are no elephant. An example would be the Selous. In 2012, World Wildlife Fund estimated there were 65,000 elephant in the Selous. After the ban, there maybe 20,000 elephant.

We have touched on the second problem. Game cannot exist anywhere in unlimited ranges and numbers anymore. We must think about concentration of game in relatively small areas. The land set aside as wild in Africa, like in the US, is paid for by the select trophy hunting of non breeding Bulls. Bull elephant libpbe to be about 60 years old, just like deer his tusk get larger with age. But unlike a five year old deer we all would shot in a heat beat, a equally old elephant is not breeding. His death does not effect the growth of the population.

Most of us shoot 2 and 3 year old bucks. There is nothing wrong with that, but those are breeding animals. Breeding elephants are not hunted by sport, trophy hunters. When you kill that 2 or 3 year old deer you are preventing the growth of your local deer population. Sort hunters taking elephant do not prevent herd growth.

Elephant at the end of the day are no more than big pigs. The elephant killed through trophy hunting are going to die a painful starvation death when he loses his last set of teeth. He cannot chew. The meat will not be used by the local population.

How many of you have shot an old deer as a mercy killing. Maybe you ate it maybe you said he was too old and tough. I have no issue with that. However, every trophy, bull elephant is a mercy killing. The local African will eat everything including the fat off the organs.

Finally, we all know what a bunch of deer hunting or coons in the corn patch will do. Think of those West KY farmers who can kill unlimited does. Now, elephants are also nothing but big tractors. In a popular region in Zimbabwe and Botswana Chore (spelling) the elephant have turned the land into a desert. It use to be forest. Lesser animals such as bushbuck cannot be found. The elephant has destroyed the habbitat. Now, sport hunting bulls cannot reduce these numbers. But, it did pay for underground water wells to be built and run contentiously. This artificiality supported the habbitat in spite of the elephants That is until the bans came. The professional hunting outfitters no longer had the revenue from the bull elephants to keep the pumps going. The wells had to be cut off, and the ecosystem finally collapsed. And yes, poachers have now found Botswana.

At the high number the international body that awarded permits for bull elephant in Zimbabwe awarded only 125 permits from a population estimated between 75k and 125k animals. This was as of 2012.

I am not saying you or I need to hunt elephant. I will not shoot does in SE Ky. But, put me in the bluegrass region or western part of the state and I will. But, we need to realize we are no different. An elephant is nothing more than a large deer. He maybe harder to hunt. He is a lot bigger, but he is meat. Meat that is eaten. He is an animal that will destroy his habitat and local agricultural if left unmanaged.

And just like deer in North America at the turn of the 20th century market hunting will extinguish him and the wild places he represents. Sport hunting can and will save him, just like sport hunting saves deer, elk, bear, and proghorn.

Thank you for your insight.
I had not considered breeding age.

Unfortunately, I suspect your very informative post will be lost on the emotionally driven detractors.

 

[AilsaWheels]

I am not a big fan of new people joining a forum, making a couple of posts and leaving, so I am condemning myself up front. Nganga brought up this thread on another forum of which I am a member. I came over here to read and thought I would post a comment. I am not trying to change opinions, just give a point of view that doesn't get discussed much by the general public nor the media.

Elephants have been decimated throughout Africa with a few exceptions. Zimbabwe, Botswana being the major examples. The ruling made by Zinke/USFW which would overturn a ruling made by Dan Ashe in the Obama administration deals with elephants from Zimbabwe and Zambia.

Let me use Zimbabwe as an example. Zimbabwe was called Rhodesia prior to 1980. Prior to 1980, good wildlife studies were done which concluded that the country had a carrying capacity of 47,500 elephant. This was when the human population was 7 million. Along with sport hunting, Rhodesia culled elephant to keep the population at that level. After 1980 that has not happened. A survey last year has the elephant population of Zimbabwe at a little over 80,000. There are now 14 million people living in the country. Humans are encroaching on elephant habitat with each new birth. Elephant/ human conflict happens daily.

Most of the elephants hunted in Zimbabwe are hunted on communal lands. The elephants live on those lands, or move from National Parks, Game Reserves or National Forestry land. Crops are continually being destroyed. The government allows apx. 500 elephants a year to be shot (I may have old information here) Elephants reproduce at a rate of apx. 8 percent. That means the elephant population in Zimbabwe is growing by around 5,900 elephants every year if there is no poaching or poisoning of elephants that are destroying human livelihood.

Trophy hunters, like them or hate them pay the way for the sustainability of elephants in Zimbabwe. The government has no money. Prior to April 4, 2014, the date that Dan Ashe stopped the import of elephant products from Zimbabwe and Tanzania, it cost a trophy hunter somewhere in the range of $25,000-$60,000 to hunt a trophy elephant in Zimbabwe. After 2014, since American sportsmen couldn't import the elephant ivory, skin, etc. the price has fallen to $12,000-$24,000 to hunt an old bull elephant. There are a lot fewer elephants being shot by sports hunters. There is no longer money in the communal lands to reimburse individuals who have had their crops destroyed, no money for fixing roads, no money for schools, no money for medical clinics, etc. in the communal lands.

A small group of elephants will destroy five acres of corn and mellons in one night. This may be all you have to feed yourself and your extended family for the next year. You are now at the mercy of your neighbors to help you through the next year till the new crop comes in. You may put up with the elephants if the District Council reimburses you for your lost crops with funds that come from hunters. If those funds aren't available, what do you do. It doesn't take much to put a dozen mellons laced with cyanide on elephant trails and take care of the problem. This has happened much more since April 4, 2014.

Sport hunting doesn't affect the elephant population much in Zimbabwe. Realize only around 500 elephants are shot per year. The birthrate of the elephants more than make up for that. Zimbabwe can't maintain the elephant population it already has. Human encroachment, along with poaching and indiscriminate killing is what has decimated the elephant population.

Elephants are a creature that changes it's environment. If grass is available they will eat that. When the grass is gone they will browse on leaves. When they can't reach the leaves, they knock the trees down and eat the leaves and bark. This completely changes the habitat. Areas of Zimbabwe that had diverse animal populations are being and have been destroyed. Animals that depend on forests and bush to survive are being decimated by the overpopulation of elephants. 2000 year old trees and their inhabitants are lost.

In 1978, Kenya stopped hunting. There is now apx. 30% of the wildlife population in Kenya that there was prior to the hunting ban. Wildlife is now only found in National Parks. There is a saying in Africa. "If it pays it stays" That is so true when it comes to wildlife. Wildlife has no value in Kenya except for viewing in the National Parks. Wildlife outside of the National Parks has ceased to exist. Zimbabwe has many wild areas outside of the National Parks. As a graph showed earlier in this thread, the human population of Africa is booming. Human/wildlife encroachment gets worse every day. If wildlife can't pay for itself, ie: sportsmen s trophies brought back the USA, then wildlife will be the big looser.

Again, I am not trying to change the opinions of the 25% that are anti hunting. Just present a side that is based on facts and not emotion, and therefore let the 50% that are undecided have a better understanding of what is really happening in Africa.

I am blessed that I lived in Africa and saw the wildlife 50+ years ago. I pray that my great grandchildren, and yours, will be able to do the same!

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1512590442157549

Very informative.

 

[Frostbit]

OK, it’s my first post and frankly I’m doing so because this thread topic has a personal attachment for me.

I post on another forum and know Nganga by his online persona as well as knowing him personally. My wife and I recently spent a week in a remote area of the Amazon with him. We caught fish and released most. The ones we kept ended up being dinner for the Indian guide’s family that night.

I live in Alaska and I am blessed to do so. I have killed countless Caribou and Moose for my freezer and friends and elder’s freezers as well. I lived in Bush Alaska for over 8 years. That’s defined as an area you have to get onto an airplane to get to. There are no roads leading there. The area was over 50% Yu’Pik Eskimo. I delivered healthcare for a living.

The entire time I lived there I never brought an antler or cape out of the Bush. I would see “trophy hunters” from the lower 48 sitting in our little airport with their Moose and Caribou racks and a single box of meat and I would place judgement. My feelings about these “Pilgrims” was that they didn’t deserve to be there and where was the meat?

Alaska, like every other place I know of, have wanton waste laws. Those animal racks can not come out of the Bush until that meat precedes it. That meat I wondered about got distributed to the local needy by the food bank.

Those hunters required friends as guides. They required friends that were airtaxis to fly them into the Bush for their hunts. Those hunters bought tags and licenses that supported the existence of the game they sought.

What I have described continues today and I moved out of that Bush community 17 years ago.

Now to Africa

I have hunted African Elephant. I have cut the tail off the Elephant I killed in Zimbabwe in April of 2015. It’s a tradition. It shows “ownership” of that downed Elephant.

So what happened with the Elephant? It was turned from a massive dead animal into a wet spot in the sand in five hours. The meat was distributed to five separate villages in time for their Independence Day celebrations.

I was unable to import any part of that Elephant. The ivory is stored in Zim for now. The cost of the hunt did not change based on the import blockage. I could have cancelled that hunt and was given the option to do so. I did not. The money from that hunt helped fund the anti-poaching patrols in an area bordering Mozambique where poaching has plundered the Elephant population. In Zim the Elephant is doing well as a species and is greatly overpopulated in many areas. The Government actually has culling programs where they send in government hunters that kill entire family groups. If they don’t the Elephants will destroy the habitat at the cost of not only their specie but every other.

Why the hell would I want to kill an Elephant? I understand the validity of that question. Hell, remember, I questioned the Pilgrims and their Caribou and Moose antlers.

The bottom line for me as a hunter/conservationist is the experience. My wife and I tracked Elephant for 11 days in very thick cover. We were in danger more than once, paid for the privilege, and in the end fed likely over 1,000 protein starved people.

At the same time we gave those Elephants value to the locals that would otherwise like to
Poach them out after they raid their crops or kill their children.

I took the time to write this in order to attempt to explain to the Whietail/Turkey hunters on this site
Not only why an otherwise subsistence hunter from Alaska would hunt an Elephant but more importantly explain why even if you have no dream of doing so there is benefit to the overall well being of the species.

Lastly for you non-hunters, you may never understand the connection hunters have with the environment and their prey but you need to ask yourself this.

The science shows that sustained controlled legal harvest helps the species hunted. Do you “love” these animals so much you prefer them to disappear as a result of your anti-hunting feel good propaganda?

Sincerely
Jim

 

[Stainless]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_elephant

From this link under the conservation tab...

 

[Frostbit]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_elephant

From this link under the conservation tab...




View attachment 604007

 

[LHeym500]

^ Welcome LHeym
First I notice you edited out Steve’s last name, I suspect that was at his urging. That also makes me think he had a hand in writing your post, not that there’s anything wrong with that but it makes me think this is a bit of a revenge post for Steve?

I’m going to make one point as I believe that’s all there is in this subject and that is Elephant population is declining. Albeit poaching is taking a serious toll it’s simple math. You have 10 elephants, 3 are poached, 1 is killed for Sport Trophy Hunting and 1 dies from other.
Now you have 5 elephants.
Elephants are a threatened species!

Hello Sir:

Steve did not have any hand in my post other than to ask me to join the discussion. He grabbed me now talking points, discussion, or memo. I invite you to Accurate Reloading.com. That is where he found me. And we often disagree at least on emphasis.

In the African hunting section you can find a post by a retired Zimbabwe game ranger with hard numbers of elephants isolat d in national parks. The numbers are drastically dire with too many elephants. I would post it here, but do not have the computer skills.
You will also find a post that Zimbabwe professional hunters are routinely and only taking solitary 6 plus year old males which is supported by Panthera. This is because such lion like elephant Bulls are non breeding and are about to be Heyna food anyway.

On your poaching example if all elephant shot were equal, then I would agree. But sport hunted trophy bulls have no effect on population even the World Wild Life Fund agrees on this. Cities the international body that regulates elphant hunting that the US belongs to agrees with this.
Now, remove the habbitat and protection well healed trophy hunting pays for and you are right. No, no system can remove all poaching. Every year some one poaches my farm out of season. But the removal of trophy hunting allows a free for all of illegal market hunting where everything dies.

One part of my post some my take issue with is before the North American model was in practice , international hunters got together Europe in the early in 1900s and set down rules for ethical sustainable hunting in Africa.

I just got back from hunting Europe. In one day we saw over 20 animals and 4 different spieces. This is 1 and a half hours south and west of Vienna with no game fences. Without folks like me hunting there that mountain would be a stip quarry.

I can also assure all here that no one has eaten more groundhog then me here. That is why I won't shoot them anymore.

I cannot convince you Steve did not write any of this. You have to decide if you think I am truthful.

Thank you for your respectful reply.

 

[was thatguy]

OK, it’s my first post and frankly I’m doing so because this thread topic has a personal attachment for me.

I post on another forum and know Nganga by his online persona as well as knowing him personally. My wife and I recently spent a week in a remote area of the Amazon with him. We caught fish and released most. The ones we kept ended up being dinner for the Indian guide’s family that night.

I live in Alaska and I am blessed to do so. I have killed countless Caribou and Moose for my freezer and friends and elder’s freezers as well. I lived in Bush Alaska for over 8 years. That’s defined as an area you have to get onto an airplane to get to. There are no roads leading there. The area was over 50% Yu’Pik Eskimo. I delivered healthcare for a living.

The entire time I lived there I never brought an antler or cape out of the Bush. I would see “trophy hunters” from the lower 48 sitting in our little airport with their Moose and Caribou racks and a single box of meat and I would place judgement. My feelings about these “Pilgrims” was that they didn’t deserve to be there and where was the meat?

Alaska, like every other place I know of, have wanton waste laws. Those animal racks can not come out of the Bush until that meat precedes it. That meat I wondered about got distributed to the local needy by the food bank.

Those hunters required friends as guides. They required friends that were airtaxis to fly them into the Bush for their hunts. Those hunters bought tags and licenses that supported the existence of the game they sought.

What I have described continues today and I moved out of that Bush community 17 years ago.

Now to Africa

I have hunted African Elephant. I have cut the tail off the Elephant I killed in Zimbabwe in April of 2015. It’s a tradition. It shows “ownership” of that downed Elephant.

So what happened with the Elephant? It was turned from a massive dead animal into a wet spot in the sand in five hours. The meat was distributed to five separate villages in time for their Independence Day celebrations.

I was unable to import any part of that Elephant. The ivory is stored in Zim for now. The cost of the hunt did not change based on the import blockage. I could have cancelled that hunt and was given the option to do so. I did not. The money from that hunt helped fund the anti-poaching patrols in an area bordering Mozambique where poaching has plundered the Elephant population. In Zim the Elephant is doing well as a species and is greatly overpopulated in many areas. The Government actually has culling programs where they send in government hunters that kill entire family groups. If they don’t the Elephants will destroy the habitat at the cost of not only their specie but every other.

Why the hell would I want to kill an Elephant? I understand the validity of that question. Hell, remember, I questioned the Pilgrims and their Caribou and Moose antlers.

The bottom line for me as a hunter/conservationist is the experience. My wife and I tracked Elephant for 11 days in very thick cover. We were in danger more than once, paid for the privilege, and in the end fed likely over 1,000 protein starved people.

At the same time we gave those Elephants value to the locals that would otherwise like to
Poach them out after they raid their crops or kill their children.

I took the time to write this in order to attempt to explain to the Whietail/Turkey hunters on this site
Not only why an otherwise subsistence hunter from Alaska would hunt an Elephant but more importantly explain why even if you have no dream of doing so there is benefit to the overall well being of the species.

Lastly for you non-hunters, you may never understand the connection hunters have with the environment and their prey but you need to ask yourself this.

The science shows that sustained controlled legal harvest helps the species hunted. Do you “love” these animals so much you prefer them to disappear as a result of your anti-hunting feel good propaganda?

Sincerely
Jim

Great post!

I lived in Alaska 30 years.
1970- 2000.
My first hunt was by boat up the Tyone river, WAY back in the day before there was any lodges on lake Louise. I was 12 or so.

Where were you located? I lived in Eagle River, but later in life spent a lot of time in interior,all up and down the Yukon and Kuskokwim rivers.
Also spent a lot of time at coastal LRRS sites with the Raethion boys.

 

[Bobby V]

Hello Sir:

Steve did not have any hand in my post other than to ask me to join the discussion. He grabbed me now talking points, discussion, or memo. I invite you to Accurate Reloading.com. That is where he found me. And we often disagree at least on emphasis.

In the African hunting section you can find a post by a retired Zimbabwe game ranger with hard numbers of elephants isolat d in national parks. The numbers are drastically dire with too many elephants. I would post it here, but do not have the computer skills.
You will also find a post that Zimbabwe professional hunters are routinely and only taking solitary 6 plus year old males which is supported by Panthera. This is because such lion like elephant Bulls are non breeding and are about to be Heyna food anyway.

On your poaching example if all elephant shot were equal, then I would agree. But sport hunted trophy bulls have no effect on population even the World Wild Life Fund agrees on this. Cities the international body that regulates elphant hunting that the US belongs to agrees with this.
Now, remove the habbitat and protection well healed trophy hunting pays for and you are right. No, no system can remove all poaching. Every year some one poaches my farm out of season. But the removal of trophy hunting allows a free for all of illegal market hunting where everything dies.

One part of my post some my take issue with is before the North American model was in practice , international hunters got together Europe in the early in 1900s and set down rules for ethical sustainable hunting in Africa.

I just got back from hunting Europe. In one day we saw over 20 animals and 4 different spieces. This is 1 and a half hours south and west of Vienna with no game fences. Without folks like me hunting there that mountain would be a stip quarry.

I can also assure all here that no one has eaten more groundhog then me here. That is why I won't shoot them anymore.

I cannot convince you Steve did not write any of this. You have to decide if you think I am truthful.

Thank you for your respectful reply.

What forum are you guys on that got you to come over to a boating site.

Post the link from your forum that got you here.

 

[Frostbit]

No doubt the overall Elephant numbers in Africa have declined.

But in areas where the habitat and population is managed they continue to prosper. I recommend you go to the CITES website. You will find they are indeed NOT endangered. Hell, there are over 200,00o in Botswana and they are culling them since halting Elephant hunting.

What forum are you guys on that got you to come over to a boating site.

Post the link from your forum that got you here.

 

[Frostbit]

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/1741038632

 

[Frostbit]

Great post!

I lived in Alaska 30 years.
1970- 2000.
My first hunt was by boat up the Tyone river, WAY back in the day before there was any lodges on lake Louise. I was 12 or so.

Where were you located? I lived in Eagle River, but later in life spent a lot of time in interior,all up and down the Yukon and Kuskokwim rivers.
Also spent a lot of time at coastal LRRS sites with the Raethion boys.

 

[Frostbit]

Dillingham on the Bristol Bay 1992 - 2000, now Anchorage 2000 - Present.

 

[Stainless]

Hello Sir:

Steve did not have any hand in my post other than to ask me to join the discussion. He grabbed me now talking points, discussion, or memo. I invite you to Accurate Reloading.com. That is where he found me. And we often disagree at least on emphasis.

In the African hunting section you can find a post by a retired Zimbabwe game ranger with hard numbers of elephants isolat d in national parks. The numbers are drastically dire with too many elephants. I would post it here, but do not have the computer skills.
You will also find a post that Zimbabwe professional hunters are routinely and only taking solitary 6 plus year old males which is supported by Panthera. This is because such lion like elephant Bulls are non breeding and are about to be Heyna food anyway.

On your poaching example if all elephant shot were equal, then I would agree. But sport hunted trophy bulls have no effect on population even the World Wild Life Fund agrees on this. Cities the international body that regulates elphant hunting that the US belongs to agrees with this.
Now, remove the habbitat and protection well healed trophy hunting pays for and you are right. No, no system can remove all poaching. Every year some one poaches my farm out of season. But the removal of trophy hunting allows a free for all of illegal market hunting where everything dies.

One part of my post some my take issue with is before the North American model was in practice , international hunters got together Europe in the early in 1900s and set down rules for ethical sustainable hunting in Africa.

I just got back from hunting Europe. In one day we saw over 20 animals and 4 different spieces. This is 1 and a half hours south and west of Vienna with no game fences. Without folks like me hunting there that mountain would be a stip quarry.

I can also assure all here that no one has eaten more groundhog then me here. That is why I won't shoot them anymore.

I cannot convince you Steve did not write any of this. You have to decide if you think I am truthful.

Thank you for your respectful reply.

The link I posted says something quite different than what is being debated by Pro Elephant hunters in this thread, and that’s not the only one I’ve seen, Wikipedia is usually near the top of searches and is always easy to understand because it’s unbiased.
As for Steve, he and I have a contentious forum demeanor. When I see him bringing people in my Propaganda detector spikes.
Not that it’s relative to this thread but I’m texting with my daughter in between writing this, who is looking to buy her husband a rifle to hunt deer with. I bought her a Model 700 in .270 last Christmas and an 870 shotgun the Christmas before that, so I’m not the anti hunter Steve would like you to believe, in fact I used to hunt also, but not threatened species. Please don’t take my tone personally, as this probably should have been directed to Steve, but he said he’s done posting with me in this thread, so he goes to another forum to recruit people to post to his argument.

 

[Bobby V]

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/1741038632

Thanks for posting the link. Explains a lot about "Steve". I mean Nganga...

Stainless..530...You were menetion in this link...lol

 

[Frostbit]

The link I posted says something quite different than what is being debated by Pro Elephant hunters in this thread, and that’s not the only one I’ve seen, Wikipedia is usually near the top of searches and is always easy to understand because it’s unbiased.
As for Steve, he and I have a contentious forum demeanor. When I see him bringing people in my Propaganda detector spikes.
Not that it’s relative to this thread but I’m texting with my daughter in between writing this, who is looking to buy her husband a rifle to hunt deer with. I bought her a Model 700 in .270 last Christmas and an 870 shotgun the Christmas before that, so I’m not the anti hunter Steve would like you to believe, in fact I used to hunt also, but not threatened species. Please don’t take my tone personally, as this probably should have been directed to Steve, but he said he’s done posting with me in this thread, so he goes to another forum to recruit people to post to his argument.

 

[Stainless]

Thanks for posting the link. Explains a lot about "Steve". I mean Nganga...

Stainless..530...You were menetion in this link...lol

Oh I figured so, nothing would surprise me with Steve at this point.
Did he get CTG to sign up there also to pad his thanks?

 

[Frostbit]

Don’t know you from Adam and believe me when I tell you I have called Steve a dickhead more than once but this is not about he or you. It’s about the science of conservation.

You can cherry pick whatever internet sites you wish to support your stance and I can do the same. I won’t.

Please tell your daughter or her husband to be very careful of the trigger on that 700. They are very accurate but are prone to fowling that can cause an accidental discharge

Cheers
Jim

 

[Bobby V]

Oh I figured so, nothing would surprise me with Steve at this point.
Did he get CTG to sign up there also to pad his thanks?

Here is one of his posts.


posted 24 November 2017 03:40 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
SA: I have registered on your other forum. I will post my plea tomorrow when my registration is confirmed.

It will not be the best argument, but you ask for help, so I will do my best.


There are two guys whom will attack, both are hunters.

Stainless, he's a lost soul looking for approval

530RL, I don't know what he is. He claims to be a Conservative but his views are skewed. He is called "pretzel" for his many twists.

I am Nganga, my old name here. Tell me your screen name and we might be able to build some velocity. There are many that are willing to listen. But when it is only one....?


Formerly "Nganga"

 

[Stainless]

Don’t know you from Adam and believe me when I tell you I have called Steve a dickhead more than once but this is not about he or you. It’s about the science of conservation.

You can cherry pick whatever internet sites you wish to support your stance and I can do the same. I won’t.

Please tell your daughter or her husband to be very careful of the trigger on that 700. They are very accurate but are prone to fowling that can cause an accidental discharge

Cheers
Jim

Yea, I’m aware of some accidental discharges including at least 1 death, but I thought they redesigned the trigger mechanism a couple years back. No matter I’ll do some research.

Btw, did Steve tell you I’m a kale eating liberal too, j/k.

 

[Stainless]

Here is one of his posts.


posted 24 November 2017 03:40 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
SA: I have registered on your other forum. I will post my plea tomorrow when my registration is confirmed.

It will not be the best argument, but you ask for help, so I will do my best.


There are two guys whom will attack, both are hunters.

Stainless, he's a lost soul looking for approval

530RL, I don't know what he is. He claims to be a Conservative but his views are skewed. He is called "pretzel" for his many twists.

I am Nganga, my old name here. Tell me your screen name and we might be able to build some velocity. There are many that are willing to listen. But when it is only one....?


Formerly "Nganga"

Lol, not surprised in the least.

 

[saucedaddy]

Here is one of his posts.


posted 24 November 2017 03:40 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
SA: I have registered on your other forum. I will post my plea tomorrow when my registration is confirmed.

It will not be the best argument, but you ask for help, so I will do my best.


There are two guys whom will attack, both are hunters.

Stainless, he's a lost soul looking for approval

530RL, I don't know what he is. He claims to be a Conservative but his views are skewed. He is called "pretzel" for his many twists.

I am Nganga, my old name here. Tell me your screen name and we might be able to build some velocity. There are many that are willing to listen. But when it is only one....?


Formerly "Nganga"

Hang in there fellas, this is all part of re-filling the bench properly. The Supreme Being has his ways of Making The Fab 5 Great Again. It looks a lot different then the old recruiting tactics of Reeegie & CTG but it's needed. Sit back and watch The Almighty work. Looks like Reeegie learned a hard lesson from latching on so quickly but damn CTG is now falling in love with the strippers as soon as they hit the threshold.

 

[Stainless]

In case you guys are wondering about 530, he’s out in the sand dunes with his Solar powered twin panel Sandcar dodging the endangered Glamis milkweed plant.

 

[Stainless]

Hang in there fellas, this is all part of re-filling the bench properly. The Supreme Being has his ways of Making The Fab 5 Great Again. It looks a lot different then the old recruiting tactics of Reeegie & CTG but it's needed. Sit back and watch The Almighty work. Looks like Reeegie learned a hard lesson from latching on so quickly but damn CTG is now falling in love with the strippers as soon as they hit the threshold.

Perfect timing Saucer!
GPAU!!

 

[was thatguy]

Hang in there fellas, this is all part of re-filling the bench properly. The Supreme Being has his ways of Making The Fab 5 Great Again. It looks a lot different then the old recruiting tactics of Reeegie & CTG but it's needed. Sit back and watch The Almighty work. Looks like Reeegie learned a hard lesson from latching on so quickly but damn CTG is now falling in love with the strippers as soon as they hit the threshold.

Speaking of filling the bench, what are you going to do about Shameus?
It doesn't do any good to have a serial poster if half of the other team has him on ignore.
Your ringer jumped the shark.

 

[Frostbit]

Yea, I’m aware of some accidental discharges including at least 1 death, but I thought they redesigned the trigger mechanism a couple years back. No matter I’ll do some research.

Btw, did Steve tell you I’m a kale eating liberal too, j/k.

 

[Frostbit]

Yea, I’m aware of some accidental discharges including at least 1 death, but I thought they redesigned the trigger mechanism a couple years back. No matter I’ll do some research.

Btw, did Steve tell you I’m a kale eating liberal too, j/k.

Steve didn’t tell me anything personally about anyone on here. That said, I’ve offered up a bit about my background and why I support legal hunting for myself and others.

Cheers
Jim

 

[saucedaddy]

Speaking of filling the bench, what are you going to do about Shameus?
It doesn't do any good to have a serial poster if half of the other team has him on ignore.
Your ringer jumped the shark.

Remember back when you would keep putting me on ignore? You know better then anyone that ridiculous "Peek a Boo" shit never works out. Come on buddy, you know all to well that the Ego will always break through the emotions. Ain't nobody on "Ignore" down here in the P&G playpen, when fools claim that, its just a cry for help.

 

[saucedaddy]

Steve didn’t tell me anything personally about anyone on here. That said, I’ve offered up a bit about my background and why I support legal hunting for myself and others.

Cheers
Jim

I'm gonna drop a big "Like" on you Frosty! ''Tis the season!

 

[Stainless]

Steve didn’t tell me anything personally about anyone on here. That said, I’ve offered up a bit about my background and why I support legal hunting for myself and others.

Cheers
Jim

I see your forum by the title must be predominantly for handloading?
I used to handload a .264 WM and had a lot of fun with it. It was a Westerner with 26” barrel and Leupold optics, I know this combination is laughable with the improvements in manufacturing as well as optics these days.
Anyway, glad you stopped by Jim.
: thumbsup

 

[Stainless]

Remember back when you would keep putting me on ignore? You know better then anyone that ridiculous "Peek a Boo" shit never works out. Come on buddy, you know all to well that the Ego will always break through the emotions. Ain't nobody on "Ignore" down here in the P&G playpen, when fools claim that, its just a cry for help.

No shit, peek a boo huh?
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised by anything he does.

 

[was thatguy]

Remember back when you would keep putting me on ignore? You know better then anyone that ridiculous "Peek a Boo" shit never works out. Come on buddy, you know all to well that the Ego will always break through the emotions. Ain't nobody on "Ignore" down here in the P&G playpen, when fools claim that, its just a cry for help.

Lol...
Yeah it took me a while to see the humor in your posts, and the comedy in your psychosis!! After playing peek a boo I realized that your entertainment value outweighed any trivial differences.
Sadly, the same can not be said of your token jester.

Every poster has at least a margin of worth in their opinions and posts.
As you recall, I got twisted up with squeeze as well.
But I've come to have a grudging respect for your committed players.
They believe what they post, and aren't just jaw flapping trolls.

So no, it's no "cry for help"...lol.
Moreso it's just growing tired of seeing the same old fanatical BS from him.
I have noticed one thing since I shut him off. The number of refreshed threads notifications has dropped by about half or so.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

look guys, yes I asked for help. The help I got wasn't coming here and starting fights. As you can see, each and every one cam there and tried to explain conservation, in their words. I was tired of the one liners back and forth but didn't want to give up on those who may be reading this thread and just lurking.

Conservation through hunting is a complicated subject. There are no absolutes.

 

[Stainless]

Moreso it's just growing tired of seeing the same old fanatical BS from him.

Can you finally see how others felt about some of you Trumpkins fanatical BS over the last 8 years?
In fact the derogatory comments towards Dems still goes on in here daily and none of them are complaining, only Trumpkins are whining about it when they are on the receiving end.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Hang in there fellas, this is all part of re-filling the bench properly. The Supreme Being has his ways of Making The Fab 5 Great Again. It looks a lot different then the old recruiting tactics of Reeegie & CTG but it's needed. Sit back and watch The Almighty work. Looks like Reeegie learned a hard lesson from latching on so quickly but damn CTG is now falling in love with the strippers as soon as they hit the threshold.

Did I just get called a "Supreme Being" ? Hell. I think I'll change my screen name. GPAU

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

I see your forum by the title must be predominantly for handloading?
I used to handload a .264 WM and had a lot of fun with it. It was a Westerner with 26” barrel and Leupold optics, I know this combination is laughable with the improvements in manufacturing as well as optics these days.
Anyway, glad you stopped by Jim.
: thumbsup

SS, no, the name of the forum is misleading. Its really mostly about African Hunting. Just like RDP is mostly about The river/havasu, but boating in general.

Can you see the difference in the posts from "my guys" that came here? they attempted to inform and give their take on conservation through hunting. There wasn't any cheap shots, at all.

If you read what I posted over there, I stated that "This demographic is the type of people we need to reach out to" over on Accurate Reloading we argue amongst ourselves about who's methods of conservation are better, bottom line is we all want the same thing. My goal is to reach out and inform, not to argue. If we can make "fence sitters" not be anti-hunters, we all win. Even you, a deer hunter. Someday, rest assured, they will come for your deer hunting as well. Its just the big emotional animals are first.

 

[530RL]

In case you guys are wondering about 530, he’s out in the sand dunes with his Solar powered twin panel Sandcar dodging the endangered Glamis milkweed plant.

Technically I am saving the milkweed plant. As I have learned from this thread in order to save it, one must be willing to kill it.

 

[SBMech]

It matters not what anyone says, the local jesters have their minds made up.

Welcome to the new posters, don't let the few dipshits who ask you "how did you get here?" and such bullshit bother you, they think they own this forum.

Please join in and continue to share your unique knowledge with posters who might be unfamiliar with the idea of conservation hunting and the processes that it entails.

The more the merrier!

 

[pack3tZer0]

It matters not what anyone says, the local jesters have their minds made up.

Welcome to the new posters, don't let the few dipshits who ask you "how did you get here?" and such bullshit bother you, they think they own this forum.

Please join in and continue to share your unique knowledge with posters who might be unfamiliar with the idea of conservation hunting and the processes that it entails.

The more the merrier!

Thanks Br0!

 

[Gelcoater]

It matters not what anyone says, the local jesters have their minds made up.

Welcome to the new posters, don't let the few dipshits who ask you "how did you get here?" and such bullshit bother you, they think they own this forum.

Please join in and continue to share your unique knowledge with posters who might be unfamiliar with the idea of conservation hunting and the processes that it entails.

The more the merrier!

You said this much more eloquently than I would have.
Was killing me last night not to post.
Phone phucked up, and shit internet service in Eliminators spray booth...


To you new guys!
Welcome aboard.
As you can see, there are some here who already know more than you experienced hunters. Even though they've never hunted there.

Your efforts weren't for not though. I learned from them, I'm sure others did as well.

Since you've already made the effort to join the site you may as well step into some other sections and poke around.
There's plenty to learn and see.

Check out the "New builds from the mold" section.
Many makers there offering an inside glimps into what goes into creating someone's dream.

You get to see it done from the inside out.