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Massive Power outages for NorCal

Xtrmwakeboarder

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I love how the customers think maintaining the grid is cheap and easy.

There is so much regulatory bullshit we deal with on a routine basis just so you guys can flip a switch and not think twice about it.
But soon as you might be without power for a few days the world ends.

For what it’s worth SCE is spending tons of money to avoid fires right now to keep you all happy.
LOL wait until the rate case.
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s cheap and easy. I think people are saying we have paid, and currently pay, enough already to have competent people maintaining their power lines so we don’t lose property and lives in fires. As a result of the companies not doing this, we get to go without power because the utilities would rather bandaid a situation to limit liability than fix it. Maybe rates do need to increase... Have utilities been running at a loss? I don’t follow this close enough to know.
 

Crazyhippy

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Name another state this is happening in where lives are lost and damage is in the billions on such a frequent basis?

You could burn most of Iowa and do less financial damage than one block in certain areas of CA...



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rrrr

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If only there was a way to transmit power not using overhead lines. :rolleyes:

I sure hope somebody invents it soon. :D

This gets tossed about by politicians and environmentalists like it can be done by next week. Ain't gonna happen. It would cost billions and take decades. We'll all be dead or drowned by then, MMGW is coming!
 

Wizard29

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As a result of the companies not doing this, we get to go without power because the utilities would rather bandaid a situation to limit liability than fix it.

That assumption is a big part of the problem. I can't speak for other utilities, but I do know that SCE has not been found on any fire to have been out of compliance on required maintenance activities that, if performed, would have prevented the fire.

The issue is not about the utilities not maintaining their equipment. It has everything to do with hazards that exist when existing equipment is energized in certain conditions that significantly lend themselves to fire.
 

Xtrmwakeboarder

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That assumption is a big part of the problem. I can't speak for other utilities, but I do know that SCE has not been found on any fire to have been out of compliance on required maintenance activities that, if performed, would have prevented the fire.

The issue is not about the utilities not maintaining their equipment. It has everything to do with hazards that exist when existing equipment is energized in certain conditions that significantly lend themselves to fire.
Is it really an assumption when you have a member, who I believe is a lineman, explaining that PG&E pulled out 5,000 lineman that should have been maintaining the lines and basically told them to bandaid the immediate needs and push others to a later date?

Are Santa Ana winds new? Are these new power lines in areas with trees? I sure as hell remember winds and power lines near trees/forests for the 35 years I’ve been alive...and yet, the utilities kept the power on.

If this is a result of overpopulation in forested areas, are new power lines not built to withstand santa ana winds? Clearly the utilities think there is a risk of fire associated with having lines energized during a windy day. Is there another option as to why this is a risk besides not maintaining the area around the lines?
 
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Wizard29

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Is it really an assumption when you have a member, who I believe is a lineman, explaining that PG&E pulled out 5,000 lineman that should have been maintaining the lines and basically told them to bandaid the immediate needs and push others to a later date?

Are Santa Ana winds new? Are these new power lines in areas with trees? I sure as hell remember winds and power lines near trees/forests for the 35 years I’ve been alive...and yet, the utilities kept the power on.

If this is a result of overpopulation in forested areas, are new power lines not built to withstand santa ana winds? Clearly the utilities think there is a risk of fire associated with having lines energized during a windy day. Is there another option as to why this is a risk besides not maintaining the area around the lines?

That's actually a really good question and the answer is more or less "yes to most".

Whatever decision PGE made with the linemen I'm sure was in line with established standards for maintenance. Doing otherwise would be suicide for the company and personal suicide for whoever the decision makers are as they would end up in prison if things went south.

I'm no global warming sucker, but the weather patterns have changed in recent years. Winds have been a little stronger. Winters have been a little wetter, which means more vegetation to dry out in summer and fall.

Population is definitely a factor. There are more houses and consequently more power circuits now. Seems logical there would also be more equipment failures and resulting fires.

In my opinion, perhaps the greatest factor is the political climate in which we all now reside. Much like a good portion of the public seems to have turned against law enforcement, that same public has turned on the utilities. Times were when there was a fire, the utility wasn't automatically responsible. However, in our new exceptionally litigious society, the focus turns to the deepest pockets and we see how that goes. As I said before, some tweaker can start a fire with his crack pipe in the vicinity of a power pole, flee the area without being seen, and who do you think is taking the heat (pun intended) for the fire? The fire originated near the pole and the circuits are down because the pole supporting them got burned...must've been something with those wires!

In any case, to automatically make the assumption that the equipment isn't being maintained to standards isn't correct. The standards exist and the utilities must show the state on a regular basis those standards are being met or there are big consequences.
 

CLdrinker

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I don’t think anyone is saying it’s cheap and easy. I think people are saying we have paid, and currently pay, enough already to have competent people maintaining their power lines so we don’t lose property and lives in fires. As a result of the companies not doing this, we get to go without power because the utilities would rather bandaid a situation to limit liability than fix it. Maybe rates do need to increase... Have utilities been running at a loss? I don’t follow this close enough to know.

I can only speak for what SCE does to prevent fires. They spent money on fire prevention before last’s years disasters but after seeing what happened to PG&E SCE is on a all out mission to take every step possible to install facilities that I’ll be very unlikely to start a fire. It’s going to cost the rate payers next go around for sure because they are spending massive amounts of money.
 

highvoltagehands

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Here's where the PSPS Outages might happen.
FireIndexToday.png
FireIndexTomorrow.png
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Xtrmwakeboarder

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That's actually a really good question and the answer is more or less "yes to most".

Whatever decision PGE made with the linemen I'm sure was in line with established standards for maintenance. Doing otherwise would be suicide for the company and personal suicide for whoever the decision makers are as they would end up in prison if things went south.

I'm no global warming sucker, but the weather patterns have changed in recent years. Winds have been a little stronger. Winters have been a little wetter, which means more vegetation to dry out in summer and fall.

Population is definitely a factor. There are more houses and consequently more power circuits now. Seems logical there would also be more equipment failures and resulting fires.

In my opinion, perhaps the greatest factor is the political climate in which we all now reside. Much like a good portion of the public seems to have turned against law enforcement, that same public has turned on the utilities. Times were when there was a fire, the utility wasn't automatically responsible. However, in our new exceptionally litigious society, the focus turns to the deepest pockets and we see how that goes. As I said before, some tweaker can start a fire with his crack pipe in the vicinity of a power pole, flee the area without being seen, and who do you think is taking the heat (pun intended) for the fire? The fire originated near the pole and the circuits are down because the pole supporting them got burned...must've been something with those wires!

In any case, to automatically make the assumption that the equipment isn't being maintained to standards isn't correct. The standards exist and the utilities must show the state on a regular basis those standards are being met or there are big consequences.

Well I guess the maintenance standards are garbage and need to be updated, because turning off the power when it gets windy is ridiculous.

People are turning against the utilities because we pay them to do a job 100% time. That job doesn’t end when it’s not sunny and clear. It’s not an easy job, but I’m pretty sure they have been making money this entire time. If they haven’t, charge me more and keep the lines clear and on when we have catastrophic 30mph wind gusts.
 

Xring01

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It is when lives are saved and thousands of homes arent burnt to the dirt...

so your saying you want an electricity bill higher than you mortgage?

please ask me how I know....

this is my industry.

the cost of Undergound EHV cables will blow most people minds.

I was part of the majority of the Las Vegas Undergound projects over the last 12 years. Huge $$$ NVEneergy did not pay for those projects, because there rate base would have gone up, costing all the other customers lots of money for the benefit of the casinos... thats a fact jack..

so who paid???

the casinos... yep they re imbursed NVE for the costs.

If legislation was passed to underground California, i would no longer be on RDP, I would be on yatching the world.com with a huge smile on my face, next to Tiger Woods yatch.

Costs to the consumer, is real, unless your gonna invent $$$ trees to pay for, its never gonna happen.
 

Xring01

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I don’t think anyone is saying it’s cheap and easy. I think people are saying we have paid, and currently pay, enough already to have competent people maintaining their power lines so we don’t lose property and lives in fires. As a result of the companies not doing this, we get to go without power because the utilities would rather bandaid a situation to limit liability than fix it. Maybe rates do need to increase... Have utilities been running at a loss? I don’t follow this close enough to know.

PGE has gone Bankruptcy twice. So yes, they have ran at a loss.
 

was thatguy

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After reading all this it seems there is no real solution?
The only avenues are mitigation and which type of mitigation is feasible?

Shutting down power during winds seems like the easiest immediate mitigation, while making system improvements at a pace that is economically doable.

But like most things in CA, infrastructure, roads, reservoirs, dams, you name it, it seems like it’s still just building atop an obsolete, outdated original structure.
What I mean is, regardless of consumer judgment, it’s unlikely any supplier is going to tear down their entire rural grids and rebuild underground or any other way.

Pulling out or selling of the contract would likely be a better option, especially considering that CA wants to basically turn into a horse and buggy, full blown Amish type existence in the future.
 

DrunkenSailor

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I hate myself for this comment. It will surely draw scorn and it would only work in a perfect world which we are far from. Distribution utilities should be government owned or at the very least the exclusive service bs monopolies should end.

If edison runs a tighter ship which results in lower rates i should have the choice to use them. Same with cable, phone, water, nat gas, etc...

Allowing utility monopolies does not support a free market economy. If we are going to allow that why not just turn it over to the government. People in the midwest probably like the idea people.in california are saying "have you seen the roads?"
 

Xtrmwakeboarder

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You say that now, but when you get that bill it'll be:
No, I won’t. I’m not saying to bury the lines. I’m saying trim some trees... this isn’t rocket science and hasn’t been for a long time.

Edit: This is assuming that these companies aren’t currently making money and therefore don’t have the budget to increase their maintenance spend.
 

RCDave

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It's easy for pge to be negligent. Just file bk every few years. The CA government will support it each time.

Doing the same thing expecting different results. The definition of insanity
 

Wizard29

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No, I won’t. I’m not saying to bury the lines. I’m saying trim some trees... this isn’t rocket science and hasn’t been for a long time.

Assumptions once again. There's a lot more to it than just trimming some trees when hardening the infrastructure. For example, it was mentioned earlier that SCE is rolling out covered conductor (as opposed to bare wires like we have now). That's a great idea and would prevent the vast majority of fires if wires were to come down. But are you aware of all it entails?
 

hallett21

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35-50k and you can get yourself off grid solar, backup generator, big propane tank, Tesla power wall battery and be your own utility.

[emoji6]


If PGE ceases to exist tomorrow someone will have to take over the current grid. The amount of money and man power to make the grid “perfect” would be insane. Shutting off power during high winds is the safest move.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Uncle Dave

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Maybe people who move into high fire hazard areas should pay extra for the service. How do you insure 100% that a transformer or a tree does not get to close. One way you double the budget and you still can mitigate the 100% that a electrical fault does not start a fire. I guess you could go underground with 500kv lines. You’re bills would triple


What if you aren't in a fire hazard area but the lines you rely on are?


Online looks like weeks. I can make a call in the morning if you wanted a realistic wait time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im starting the quotation process for this now.
Ping my private email here on RDP and Ill give you the info.

Thanks

UD
 
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Xtrmwakeboarder

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Assumptions once again. There's a lot more to it than just trimming some trees when hardening the infrastructure. For example, it was mentioned earlier that SCE is rolling out covered conductor (as opposed to bare wires like we have now). That's a great idea and would prevent the vast majority of fires if wires were to come down. But are you aware of all it entails?
No, I'm not, but good. If they don't want to trim trees then this is another option. Wind has been around for a long time, as have homes in forested areas. I pay my bill so SCE can figure out how to solve these "new" issues without turning off the lights.
 

Taboma

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Safe ? Sure, for the "Big Three" power companies involved. Hardly for the customers who will lose power, communications (Fewer land lines and forced to VOIP by the phone companies) and the internet for possibly several days. Nothing worse than facing the threat of fire and having no means of tracking it or communicating with others.
I LOL when I read the SDG&E website giving a link to SDG&E outage and news updates --- No power, no cell service, no voip, how do we access these again ?
Oh, easy, you just hunker down and wait and pray the sheriff shows up before the fire does. Or you can go to one of these listed community centers, hell, they claim to have room for 100 folks --- 100 ??

This is clearly a CYA and politically motivated reaction to having been blamed and sued. The more hundreds of thousands of customer's affected, the bigger the public outcry.
The end goal for the power companies being, government passing laws offering complete exoneration of all liabilities. Then watch the lights come back on, if not for all, certainly for most.

I was born in 48', these SA winds have blown every fall and early winter since my birth --- climate change my ass. My house burned in the 07' Witchcreek fire, I was the only person in my neighborhood NOT TO SUE SDG&E, because I acknowledge there's unmitigated risk on their part regardless of how it's maintained. I also knew what's happening now would be the fallout from these lawsuits. And here we are.

EDIT --- Oh, and do y'all really think the EPA is going to sit on their hands while a million or more customers install gas generators ?
My son who's an EC recently tried to get a backup Genny installed in Santa Barbara, the city won't issue a permit --- claim they have no power outages so don't need any.

I've got solar, in fact I produce enough to have only paid $ 38 last year and none the previous eight. Yet, when the power goes off, my panels shutdown, otherwise I could at least easily keep my frig from defrosting during the day and run portable lights or battery backup at night.

This war is just beginning. I can ignore a lot of the BS that goes on in this state, but between the SA winds and this forced outage crap, that is becoming my motivation to bail.

Sorry, had to vent --- :p I acknowledge I might be way off base, no matter, I just needed to write that anyway, lol :rolleyes: :p:p
 
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NicPaus

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Guys posting there power is off already. Said 5 days they were told. That back up generator DAB has is a good buy.
 

Wizard29

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No, I'm not, but good. If they don't want to trim trees then this is another option. Wind has been around for a long time, as have homes in forested areas. I pay my bill so SCE can figure out how to solve these "new" issues without turning off the lights.

And they will. Your bill will just reflect the options that are chosen. The lower your bill, the less ideal the options are that get selected.

Cheap
100% safe
100% reliable

Pick two.
 

Xring01

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Not really. They have gone BK due to unpaid liabilities, most of those liabilities are fire related.
It is real easy to make a ton of money but run the company at a loss.
PGE has gone Bankruptcy twice. So yes, they have ran at a loss.

So what happened the first time
Go back in time, recalll the great governor Mr. Gray Davis.... and a little company called ENRON..
Remember de regulation... when PG&E, SCE and SDGE where loosing millions / day, sometimes per hour....

So who took it in ass? The rate payers or the Utility's ????

Look back at PG&E's stock history.. you will see it drop down to $6 or less... that was deregulation... billions of dollars lost.... did the rate payer re impburse PG&E, SCE or SDGE?

You know that I know the answer to this...

My advice, dont believe everything you read online... research the facts for yourself... and talk to people who are experts in there field, before you make up your mind on any issues.

The reason why PG&E went bankrupt after the recent fires, was to show good faith in paying up money they thought they might owe... The moment the filed BK, the surrended all the
money in there holding accounts. If my memory is correct it s $16Billion... Yes they lost that $$$, didnt fight the courts or public opinion.... paid up....

Got to work to try and correct all the problems they had, like paying employees to fix problems, with no money in the bank, so they can keep the lights on for there customers.

I am the wrong person to challenge on this stuff.. I have lived it for the last 23 years...

I do not work for the Utilitys, never have, probably never will... I work as an equipment supplier to them, which is why I know about this stuff.

I am literally amazed at how little the general public knows about this industry.

IF you want true reliable power, get all the politicians out of the Electricity Markets. Let the professional Engineers do there job. The rates will go down, and reliability will go up. The more the politicians get involved, the higher the costs, and the lower the reliability...

Please ask me how I know, go back to the prior threads on this subject about 6 months ago... look at what I posted, and compare that to whats happening today.

The choice the utility is in... Get sued for cutting off the power, or get sued for starting a fire... regardless your getting sued....

Thats the position they have been put in... How is that a fair business model?
What happens to there ROI, when the cut power. how much money have they lost in that time frame...

Bigger question... what is the financial penalty for it??? Google Saifi and Maifi minutes.. get a better understanding of that..

I can go on for hours...

Trust me... every person I work with at the Utilitys are great people, and thier only goal in life is to deliver safe reliable power to there customers.

Before you bash them, get to know the true story!
 
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RitcheyRch

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While your house is ransacked from looters


Safe ? Sure, for the "Big Three" power companies involved. Hardly for the customers who will lose power, communications (Fewer land lines and forced to VOIP by the phone companies) and the internet for possibly several days. Nothing worse than facing the threat of fire and having no means of tracking it or communicating with others.
I LOL when I read the SDG&E website giving a link to SDG&E outage and news updates --- No power, no cell service, no voip, how do we access these again ?
Oh, easy, you just hunker down and wait and pray the sheriff shows up before the fire does. Or you can go to one of these listed community centers, hell, they claim to have room for 100 folks --- 100 ??

This is clearly a CYA and politically motivated reaction to having been blamed and sued. The more hundreds of thousands of customer's affected, the bigger the public outcry.
The end goal for the power companies being, government passing laws offering complete exoneration of all liabilities. Then watch the lights come back on, if not for all, certainly for most.

I was born in 48', these SA winds have blown every fall and early winter since my birth --- climate change my ass. My house burned in the 07' Witchcreek fire, I was the only person in my neighborhood NOT TO SUE SDG&E, because I acknowledge there's unmitigated risk on their part regardless of how it's maintained. I also knew what's happening now would be the fallout from these lawsuits. And here we are.

EDIT --- Oh, and do y'all really think the EPA is going to sit on their hands while a million or more customers install gas generators ?
My son who's an EC recently tried to get a backup Genny installed in Santa Barbara, the city won't issue a permit --- claim they have no power outages so don't need any.

I've got solar, in fact I produce enough to have only paid $ 38 last year and none the previous eight. Yet, when the power goes off, my panels shutdown, otherwise I could at least easily keep my frig from defrosting during the day and run portable lights or battery backup at night.

This war is just beginning. I can ignore a lot of the BS that goes on in this state, but between the SA winds and this forced outage crap, that is becoming my motivation to bail.

Sorry, had to vent --- :p I acknowledge I might be way off base, no matter, I just needed to write that anyway, lol :rolleyes: :p:p
 

Sleek-Jet

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I just sit back and smile at these threads. There are only two times the majority of people think about electric utilities, 1) when the bill arrives 2) when the lights don't work.
 

Xring01

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I hate myself for this comment. It will surely draw scorn and it would only work in a perfect world which we are far from. Distribution utilities should be government owned or at the very least the exclusive service bs monopolies should end.

If edison runs a tighter ship which results in lower rates i should have the choice to use them. Same with cable, phone, water, nat gas, etc...

Allowing utility monopolies does not support a free market economy. If we are going to allow that why not just turn it over to the government. People in the midwest probably like the idea people in California are saying "have you seen the roads?"

Think about the cost it takes to install a cell tower... Then that service can be wireless to the customer. Easy math... number of towers, number of potential customers..

Electricity is not wireless. it requires a physical cable to the end customer to work.
If your theory played out... 10 companys are competiting for every customer in CA. the 10 power lines to everyones house... wait, that means every road/ rite of way would have to get dug up 10 times. Then you would have to have 10 times the power plants, 10x the transmission lines, 10 times the substations, 10 times the engineers, 10 times the meters, 10 times the service techs... damn I hope you get your way, cause you guys have me dreaming about my future yatch now.....

See it adds up fast, which is why it will never happen. No company would put themselves at that kind of financial risk with such little return on that investment.

The company that owns the wire to the house today, will most likely be the company that owns the wires to the house tomorrow. Because the costs are just to high to run another line.

Have utilitys been sold off, yes, but that didnt result in multiple utilitys fighting for the same customers....
 

LargeOrangeFont

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I just sit back and smile at these threads. There are only two times the majority of people think about electric utilities, 1) when the bill arrives 2) when the lights don't work.

That is why it is called a utility, not a luxury. The government gave these companies a monopoly to provide an uninterrupted service, and all they did was pay off the government to look the other way while they take profits.
 

Willie B

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... Off the grid Solar works just fine for me at Lake Oroville...
 

Reaper1

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Supposed to take the wife to Napa this weekend and meet up with friends. Looks like plans could change. o_O
 

Sleek-Jet

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That is why it is called a utility, not a luxury. The government gave these companies a monopoly to provide an uninterrupted service, and all they did was pay off the government to look the other way while they take profits.

If it was so easy, the wife and kids would be doing it.
 

King295

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The pool of dead beat voters in California will be so happy about this. Not only will they be saving the forest from its unnecessary fires they will also be reducing the harmful effects to our air quality from said fires.

And last but absolutely not least, they wont have to work! I don't know too many offices/companies equipped to operate during an extended outage.
 

TCHB

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What if you aren't in a fire hazard area but the lines you rely on are?




Im starting the quotation process for this now.
Ping my private email here on RDP and Ill give you the info.

Thanks

UD
If someone’s tree causes your outage let them pay for it. I get real quick people would keep trees trimmed. Nobody is guarantee 100% no service outage. If you want it you will have got buy a generator and make sure it is ready if needed.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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If it was so easy, the wife and kids would be doing it.

They can’t flip on a light switch?

If it was so hard why do we allow people to live in remote areas, and allow the population to grow?

No one said it was easy, they were handed a monopoly to enable them to manage these problems. They have failed repeatedly.

The solution is very simple. Manage and maintain the grid, or manage and maintain the population. Just choose the 3rd world dictatorship you’d like to live in. The reason this situation even exists is 100% due to poor government policies and poor regulatory practices.
 

Taboma

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While your house is ransacked from looters

That's no shit right there and a very good point.
During the 07' fire we had sheriffs prevent us from returning home and saving our cat after we dropped off a car at the mall parking lot.
BUT, after the fire burned ours and 13 other homes in our neighborhood, there was ZERO LEO protection from looters. So we residents set up our own check point, verifying ID's and we established roaming ARMED security patrols.
 

Uncle Dave

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If someone’s tree causes your outage let them pay for it. I get real quick people would keep trees trimmed. Nobody is guarantee 100% no service outage. If you want it you will have got buy a generator and make sure it is ready if needed.

Whose trees caused the fires last year?

Home wise I have 3 gensets - and a grip of fuel - I can last a while.
My business has no such provisions.

UD
 

TCHB

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Whose trees caused the fires last year?

Home wise I have 3 gensets - and a grip of fuel - I can last a while.
My business has no such provisions.

UD
I am glad you have gen sets and fuel. The last thing I want is more stuff to maintain and test. If you need 100% back up power do like a lot of business owners do. They have a generator and fuel ready to power flowing and some of them have two back up generators. They even have service contracts for the maintenance and testing.
 

LargeOrangeFont

We aren't happy until you aren't happy
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I am glad you have gen sets and fuel. The last thing I want is more stuff to maintain and test. If you need 100% back up power do like a lot of business owners do. They have a generator and fuel ready to power flowing and some of them have two back up generators. They even have service contracts for the maintenance and testing.

You have to have all of that for mission critical business application, or even life dependent applications/businesses. Even then something will screw you unless you actually test your power fail over plans.
 

Uncle Dave

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I am glad you have gen sets and fuel. The last thing I want is more stuff to maintain and test. If you need 100% back up power do like a lot of business owners do. They have a generator and fuel ready to power flowing and some of them have two back up generators. They even have service contracts for the maintenance and testing.

The buildings need isolation xfer switches installed before we can plug anything into them.

My house has one, but Im from the old school and prep for problems.

Like I said uptime was basically 99.99% prior to this event.

It only took once to get the company to spend the money.

UD
 

RitcheyRch

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Should be open hunting season on looters.


That's no shit right there and a very good point.
During the 07' fire we had sheriffs prevent us from returning home and saving our cat after we dropped off a car at the mall parking lot.
BUT, after the fire burned ours and 13 other homes in our neighborhood, there was ZERO LEO protection from looters. So we residents set up our own check point, verifying ID's and we established roaming ARMED security patrols.
 

Go-Fly

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This was talked about and planned for, 40 years ago. The money for maintenance went to managers and stock holders. I was there and pushed back along with almost every other employee. Anytime you delay maintenance in your car, boat, homes, schools, roads, utilities and what ever, it comes back and bites you in the ass. There's not one working man here that can't tell you in detail what the outcome will be.
 

TPC

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Totalitarian liberal state. Socialists masquerading as environmentalists won't let power plants be built near the users.
On the Indian Reservations in the SW note the compact, clean burning, super reliable and efficient jet powered power plants close to the users.
It'll never happen in Nor Cali.
 
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