PPP Loan Rules

[RandyH]

Don't hate the players, hate the game i say. Funny they dont publicly post everytime a business owner sends in 6 or 7 figures in income tax annually, but the minute you take a PPP loan, forgiven or taken as a loan , they post your Business name all over the internet Because the MSM wanted to expose greedy business owners.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

True
But there are companies that blew that cash on personal crap. I ran my local zip code as I know all the construction players in my hood.
The small guys jumped on the loans and I know for a fact they did not slow down ever during the last 10 months.

I had to wait for 4 days for one load of concrete last month, and that was with Robertson’s, one fo the biggest plants in my area.

Time will tell what happens

That is true, but even in the end, blowing the money on personal crap juices the economy... just like the $600/head.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Earnings (Revenue) does not come into account for PPP round 1. PPP round 2 it does.

I think that is a fair way to do it this time around.

 

[LowRiver2]

That is true, but even in the end, blowing the money on personal crap juices the economy... just like the $600/head.

And us paycheck folks in the middle on forced O/T get neither, just work to fund both sides

Splendid

 

[McKay]

I think that is a fair way to do it this time around.

Agreed.

 

[Havasu blue label]

everybody pays taxes but not every co needs ppp money to stay a float for a year

 

[LowRiver2]

Don't hate the players, hate the game i say. Funny they dont publicly post everytime a business owner sends in 6 or 7 figures in income tax annually, but the minute you take a PPP loan, forgiven or taken as a loan , they post your Business name all over the internet Because the MSM wanted to expose greedy business owners.

My wife and I are both “paycheck” first responders
We’ve had a combined $131k taken in taxes this year.
Now, maybe we got in the wrong line (lol), but let’s remember small biz owners RARELY have that kind of income taken out of what they make.

I have a forensic CPA that was paid $37k in my last divorce to know better.
You’re welcome for my contribution to PPP and Stimulus checks my wife and I will never benefit from

 

[LowRiver2]

Look a little deeper who took out ppp money in az Havasu and calif. ok there not ballers they just use the government credit card

You are claiming they don’t have LLC’s to pocket/ divert $ we or anyone else will never be able to track?

Um, doubtful

 

[McKay]

And us paycheck folks in the middle on forced O/T get neither, just work to fund both sides

Splendid

Forced O/T

My wife and I are both “paycheck” first responders
We’ve had a combined $131k taken in taxes this year.
Now, maybe we got in the wrong line (lol), but let’s remember small biz owners RARELY have that kind of income taken out of what they make.

I have a forensic CPA that was paid $37k in my last divorce to know better.
You’re welcome for my contribution to PPP and Stimulus checks my wife and I will never benefit from

RARELY? That's laughable and not even close to to reality, and certainly not in the group of small biz owner friends we run with. We would LOVE to only pay 130K a year in taxes. Hell would love to only pay 260K! My effective tax rate with state tax is typically 34-41% depending on the year. Friends of ours pay similar.

 

[LowRiver2]

Forced O/T


RARELY? That's laughable and not even close to to reality, and certainly not in the group of small biz owner friends we run with. We would LOVE to only pay 130K a year in taxes. Hell would love to only pay 260K! My effective tax rate with state tax is typically 34-41% depending on the year. Friends of ours pay similar.

Out of YOUR actual pay?

Come on
I know better
Our write offs ? 0

Yeah forced O/T
Your point?

 

[McKay]

Out of YOUR actual pay?

Come on
I know better
Our write offs ? 0

Yeah forced O/T
Your point?

Not sure why the forced OT was quoted.

Yes actual Pay, Pretty close to how it works in my Business, 35-40% profits go to taxes. Keep 30-35% of cash in the business to build equity and for growth. Then we take home 30% give or take to live on.

Then of course any business has write off's or you can just call it expenses. Labor, COGS, Rent, etc.

 

[c_land]

Not sure why the forced OT was quoted.

Yes actual Pay, Pretty close to how it works in my Business, 35-40% profits go to taxes. Keep 30-35% of cash in the business to build equity and for growth. Then we take home 30% give or take to live on.

Then of course any business has write off's or you can just call it expenses. Labor, COGS, Rent, etc.

Don't forget certain structures like the C-corp afford the owners the privilege of being taxed twice. Once on the business income and on anything they take home.

 

[LowRiver2]

Not sure why the forced OT was quoted.

Yes actual Pay, Pretty close to how it works in my Business, 35-40% profits go to taxes. Keep 30-35% of cash in the business to build equity and for growth. Then we take home 30% give or take to live on.

Then of course any business has write off's or you can just call it expenses. Labor, COGS, Rent, etc.

We can agree those write offs can be absorbed many ways
Not saying you do but others do from first hand experience .

The forced work puts some paycheck people into higher tax brackets.
We also can agree some of these companies may have applied fearing the worst, then used the loan to expand biz once they realized increased demand / profit in their particular form of biz

My point is it would be nice for those businesses that got loans and prospered pay the loans back vs growing their biz on the taxpayer dime.
It happened , and we both know that many who fall into that category won’t pay it back fully.

 

[McKay]

Don't forget certain structures like the C-corp afford the owners the privilege of being taxed twice. Once on the business income and on anything they take home.

I'm an S, But yes I have always thought that is wrong.

 

[Havasu blue label]

Happy to say I built my co with my own money and hard work and bought my shit with my money 31 years in business never a hand out to claim baller status .

 

[McKay]

We can agree those write offs can be absorbed many ways
Not saying you do but others do from first hand experience .

The forced work puts some paycheck people into higher tax brackets.
We also can agree some of these companies may have applied fearing the worst, then used the loan to expand biz once they realized increased demand / profit in their particular form of biz

My point is it would be nice for those businesses that got loans and prospered pay the loans back vs growing their biz on the taxpayer dime.
It happened , and we both know that many who fall into that category won’t pay it back fully.

Not sure what you mean by write offs being "absorbed". Write off's are an just an expense. Most all business's have assets that depreciates and you get to expense a portion every year. FYI, when a business buys a piece of equipment it is typically just a transfer of assets. It is not an automatic expense to deduct from the earnings. Yes there are some programs like section 179, but generally that asset sits on a balance sheet for years.

You keep bringing up "forced work". What industry are you in that you don't have a choice? You do know how progressive tax brackets work don't you? Only the portion you make above the bracket you are normally in gets taxed at a higher rate. Your base income or what you are accustomed to usually making is still taxed at the same rate.

Problem is what is the definition of "prospered". Take a business that entered into 2020 with a great back log of contracts. Then the government puts BS restrictions on them and the economy. Was not the buisness's fault. Say they scrape their way through the year and only make say half what they were intending to make because of the shutdown. Did they still prosper? Is the government not at fault?

I would think the vast majority of the PPP loans will be fully forgiven as the loan was only given for 8 weeks of payroll and was later extended to being able to use it for 24 weeks.

 

[ChumpChange]

Out of YOUR actual pay?

Come on
I know better
Our write offs ? 0

Yeah forced O/T
Your point?

You're taking one example, your ex's family company, and blasting it across the full spectrum of businesses. Not every business is built the same way where "write-offs" as you like to call them, can be absorbed. I can give you hundreds if not thousands of examples where the line of business does not provide those abilities.

 

[Havasu blue label]

There all write offs

 

[LowRiver2]

You're taking one example, your ex's family company, and blasting it across the full spectrum of businesses. Not every business is built the same way where "write-offs" as you like to call them, can be absorbed. I can give you hundreds if not thousands of examples where the line of business does not provide those abilities.

Construction co’s that don’t do that?
Below 100 employees
Let’s not act like it’s not common

 

[ChumpChange]

Construction co’s that don’t do that?
Below 100 employees
Let’s not act like it’s not common

Oh so now you're qualifying your previous statements by saying they were only representative for construction companies? I didn't see that in your initial post...just lobbing a grenade at every company that received PPP. This is the first step of a backtrack...make qualifications to your previous statements.

 

[McKay]

Construction co’s that don’t do that?
Below 100 employees
Let’s not act like it’s not common

Ok, Well I'm in construction. This is my 18th year running our business. I still don't have a clue what you are talking about with your "absorption", and "write off's" comments.

Either we are doing something wrong or people you know are crooks. Certainly not the way that all people do business or any I associate with.

 

[LowRiver2]

Oh so now you're qualifying your previous statements by saying they were only representative for construction companies? I didn't see that in your initial post...just lobbing a grenade at every company that received PPP. This is the first step of a backtrack...make qualifications to your previous statements.

No notice I noted business is that Get the same amount of business/profit in 2019 or made more money this year you know that’s what was in the post then you try to say you’re holier than thou so then I went specifically to construction companies which I know a lot about not just from one company but from many

 

[LowRiver2]

Ok, Well I'm in construction. This is my 18th year running our business. I still don't have a clue what you are talking about with your "absorption", and "write off's" comments.

Either we are doing something wrong or people you know are crooks. Certainly not the way that all people do business or any I associate with.

OK chief, you’re perfect and everyone around you is perfect noted

 

[LowRiver2]

And both of you are still skirting around the point of the original post if you took out a loan And did the same amount of business or made more money this year why would you not want to pay the whole amount of the loan back?

 

[McKay]

OK chief, you’re perfect and everyone around you is perfect noted

Let's say, not crooks. How's that?

 

[LowRiver2]

Let's say, not crooks. How's that?

How many people actually get investigated regarding what would be construed to make a “crook” status ?
less than 10%
Huge grey area and to deny that?
Well it’s the gorilla in the room.

Again
My point stands , waiting on an explanation to us “paycheck giuys”

 

[McKay]

And both of you are still skirting around the point of the original post if you took out a loan And the same amount of business or made more money this year why would you not want to pay the whole amount of the loan back?

Did not say we would not. You are trying to simplify something it appears you have little knowledge of. Don't think you even know how progressive tax brackets work either based on your comments. Or you are "skirting" that.

 

[McKay]

How many people actually get investigated regarding what would be construed to make a “crook” status ?
less than 10%
Huge grey area and to deny that?
Well it’s the gorilla in the room.

Again
My point stands , waiting on an explanation to us “paycheck giuys”

Not a clue. Not sure where one can find that data.

 

[LowRiver2]

Tax returns and spending accounts from IRS , Cal OSHA lawsuits and
Family court

All places where forensic CPA’s got involved

And for juicy cases, look up the United Paving/Target stores parking lot contract
Hardly made a blip on any radar but full on Mexican Cartel involvement
That case is admittedly extreme, but the punishment was minuscule, hence why the shell games continue

 

[ChumpChange]

No notice I noted business is that Get the same amount of business/profit in 2019 or made more money this year you know that’s what was in the post then you try to say you’re holier than thou so then I went specifically to construction companies which I know a lot about not just from one company but from many

Same amount of business/profit this year. What did they have to do to get there? Did they work harder? Take on different business lines? Do everything the same way? Nothing is the same. Have some made out? Sure. Have some failed? Absolutely. Will some that are doing really well this year due to PPP fail next year? Yup! Will they put money into their company in a down market? Most likely.

It comes down to people doing what is best for their business and themselves. May not be within the timeframe that you're judging people on but they're doing the best they can to support themselves as well as their family needs.

You may know a lot about many construction companies but what is said and what is on paper is generally two different things. That many people throwing their financial statements at you for your review? I don't think you'd be my first choice to review my business. Not because you're not smart, you're just not a professional in that arena. I'll be happy to call you if somebody leaves their smelly gym bag on the corner so you can come blow it up.

I've never met a business owner, construction company owner, who bragged that they were an idiot and didn't take advantage of what is allowed by the IRS. And if they act outside those lines then it will hopefully come to light someday.

 

[LowRiver2]

Same amount of business/profit this year. What did they have to do to get there? Did they work harder? Take on different business lines? Do everything the same way? Nothing is the same. Have some made out? Sure. Have some failed? Absolutely. Will some that are doing really well this year due to PPP fail next year? Yup! Will they put money into their company in a down market? Most likely.

It comes down to people doing what is best for their business and themselves. May not be within the timeframe that you're judging people on but they're doing the best they can to support themselves as well as their family needs.

You may know a lot about many construction companies but what is said and what is on paper is generally two different things. That many people throwing their financial statements at you for your review? I don't think you'd be my first choice to review my business. Not because you're not smart, you're just not a professional in that arena. I'll be happy to call you if somebody leaves their smelly gym bag on the corner so you can come blow it up.

I've never met a business owner, construction company owner, who bragged that they were an idiot and didn't take advantage of what is allowed by the IRS. And if they act outside those lines then it will hopefully come to light someday.

All this side tracking about corruption ....
It happens , did I say I look at books? No
Have I read investigations and been privy to them on parallel organized crime investigations? Yes

All that aside

The businesses I posted did (most likely), as good as 2019 or better.
Did they all do that ? Of course not
Did I mention industries that truly got negatively affected?
No, give them the loan.

Bottom line:
In theory, if a company took the loan in early April, expecting losses, then ended up doing well or same as FY 2019, why shouldn’t they pay the loan back? Why is it free money?
If the answer is because the baristas bagged the $1200 and have no responsibility to pay it back, then that is your answer.

The companies that bought more equipment witj that loan, made more production , profit: Why wouldn’t they ethically pay the original loan back as the profit with 0 interest was made off the loan.?

And to be clear you do know some companies applied for the loan to help laid off employees , never laid off anyone and still kept the money correct?
Zero responsibility all around , the way it is....

Just because everybody does it doesn’t make it right.

There is little recourse for any wrongdoing

As for “blowing up bags”’
I X-ray and hand entry 95% of what I get called too. We “ain’t cavemen”, lol

 

[DRYHEAT]

Well, this certainly has been an enlightening discussion.

 

[LuauLounge]

My one cent, after taxes.....
PPP was to keep businesses afloat, to keep employees employed.
It worked, although forcing restaurants, bar and others to close wasn’t the brightest idea.
No one knows how long or how far this will continue. Some businesses had a banner year, but may crumble next year due to circumstances they cannot control.

Everyone have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

 

[ChumpChange]

As for “blowing up bags”’
I X-ray and hand entry 95% of what I get called too. We “ain’t cavemen”, lol

Well I guess you're not as cool as I thought you were. lol

 

[LowRiver2]

Well I guess you're not as cool as I thought you were. lol

Hands on is way cooler

what’s your business again?

 

[ChumpChange]

Hands on is way cooler

what’s your business again?

My last post was a compliment.

My business? You ever see the movie Die Hard? Yeah that's about me. I'm a glorified bank teller.

 

[LowRiver2]

My last post was a compliment.

My business? You ever see the movie Die Hard? Yeah that's about me. I'm a glorified bank teller.

Cute

 

[ChumpChange]

Cute

I prefer handsome but a compliment is a compliment. Thank you.

 

[Havasu blue label]

okay stock broker what do you trade bonds , stocks ,funds

 

[wishiknew]

okay stock broker what do you trade bonds , stocks ,funds

I would say he trades brains for dollars

 

[Performance Grips]

The PPP loans worked for sure but there is no doubt many people took advantage. The spectrum at which people took advantage goes from full criminal prison time down to shady gray area guy. I was in Havasu all summer and it was very clear that people took advantage from buying new boats, cars ,sxs motorcycle and even houses. I know of a few buisness owners including developers / contractors that took lots of money in PPP. The guys i know put it in a separate account and were holding it in case things went bad. Things didn't go bad for them and they paid it back. Some other buisness owners i know used it because they were legit affected and needed it to survive. I guess it depends on your up bringing and moral compass as to how people decide to play it during a horrible pandemic. But for the people that did the wrong thing... I wouldn't want to have to worry about the Feds and IRS coming for me thats for sure.

 

[DUNEFLYER]

Just heard that with what the Pres signed yesterday that as long as all expenses are legit that they will be deductible.
Please confirm with your own people.

 

[ChumpChange]

Just heard that with what the Pres signed yesterday that as long as all expenses are legit that they will be deductible.
Please confirm with your own people.

Expenses have always been deductible as they are expenses. The issue was whether or not the PPP funds would be seen as Income.

 

[DUNEFLYER]

HMMMM,
I was told the opposite.
It was always income but the expenses paid with this $$ (payroll,rent) were not deductible

Expenses have always been deductible as they are expenses. The issue was whether or not the PPP funds would be seen as Income.

 

[paradise]

Expenses have always been deductible as they are expenses. The issue was whether or not the PPP funds would be seen as Income.

Yeah I thought the issue was that congress said the funds would not be taxed if you qualified for forgiveness so the IRS said "Fine, we'll limit your deductions by the amount you reasonably expect to have forgiven"

That is where people started lobbying and Congress just overruled that and now we get the income without it being taxed and we can have our standard expenses with no reduction.

How I understood it as well.

 

[DLC]

I have several friends that got the ppp loan and didn’t touch it set it in a separate account and sat on it, worked Business as usual and didn’t lay anyone off and at the end of the day the Loan was forgiven don’t need to repay it. They have to pay taxes on the income, it’s essentially free money To them.

 

[DLC]

The problem was the loans were given with no qualification process, no need for a loan was required.

Even afterwards the forgiving part was not verified, how can a loan made specifically to be used for payroll and rent be forgiven when it wasn’t even used Or needed.

 

[paradise]

The need was shaky at best, all it asked for was a reasonable belief it would be needed.

As for the forgiveness, all that is predicated on is how much you paid in payroll and other qualifying expenses. Not that you were down to your last dollar.

 

[SLT Kota]

Yeah I thought the issue was that congress said the funds would not be taxed if you qualified for forgiveness so the IRS said "Fine, we'll limit your deductions by the amount you reasonably expect to have forgiven"

That is where people started lobbying and Congress just overruled that and now we get the income without it being taxed and we can have our standard expenses with no reduction.

How I understood it as well.

This is exactly what happened. They also ruled that any amount taken for the EIDL doesn't have to be deducted from the PPP forgiveness amount.

 

[WATERDOG]

The problem was the loans were given with no qualification process, no need for a loan was required.

Even afterwards the forgiving part was not verified, how can a loan made specifically to be used for payroll and rent be forgiven when it wasn’t even used Or needed.

I know one Co. in Havasu got 99K for a business she had already closed down. I think that is just wrong.