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Massive Power outages for NorCal

Sleek-Jet

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Totalitarian liberal state. Socialists masquerading as environmentalists won't let power plants be built near the users.
On the Indian Reservations in the SW note the compact, clean burning, super reliable and efficient jet powered power plants close to the users.
It'll never happen in Nor Cali.

Yeah well, they want to shut those down also.
 

RitcheyRch

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My wife said the wind is blowing pretty good in Valencia.
 

Xtrmwakeboarder

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Last map I saw showed planned outages in North Tustin and Orange Hills for OC. Sucks.
 

Xring01

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Yep it truly sucks.
Its a direct result of a Litigious Society.

Utilities are put in a situation... I have a choice to make... (Lights On, or Lights Off) both result in lawsuits, which one costs less. Take that route.. And the power goes out.

West Coast rate payers, better hope the politicians figure out a way to dig themselves out of the hole on the rules/regulations that put the Utility's in this position.

You guys can blame the Utility's all you want, but those who work in the industry know the truth. Until those regulations change, you can expect sustained power outages in high potential fire environments.

I dont think the answer is more regulation myself... I think its alot less regulation, with back stops on Limitations of Liability (LOL) on any event. Because I know this will come up later, I will further explain what I mean with LOL. In any major contract between two major companies, there is a LOL clause. Stating that if the supplier fails to deliver on the product as specified in the contract, the maximum they can be held liable to is $1Million, or $1Billion, or 1x the Contract Price or 2x contract price, etc. There are more legal terms that come in effect, I am not bringing them up, because it further confuses my point. No I am not a lawyer. But I deal with these types of contracts all the time.

Without a cap on LOL the Utility is forced to turn the power off, because they can be held liable any and all damages, even if there suppliers product fails and creates the fire. If there is a cap, then they have a known risk factor to consider, which changes the equation/analysis/profitability of keeping the power on.

Remember a key aspect, The utility is not a manufacturer of the products they buy to keep the power on. They are at the mercy of those suppliers.

Think about it this way, If a Utility installs a new Pole Top transformer and in 6 months it fails. Who is responsible? If it starts a fire? hummm see its very complicated, but no Pole Top transformer manufacturer will sell the utility a Transformer without a LOL Clause in the contract. Because you have a company that my be valued at $50M supplying materials to a PG&E, who now has unlimited LOL when the fire happens.

In this scenario (which has happened in the past at several utility's) who pays the majority of $$$.... The vendor who supplied the equipment or the utility. Yep the vendor pays of 2x the contract price of that failure as long as its still under warranty. Say $50,000, and the Utility has to pay out Billions...

Thats fair correct? Of course its not fair... Thats why the lights are out at the moment.

Being the lowly person I am in the industry, I doubt any politicians would listen to me.
 
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Flying_Lavey

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Totalitarian liberal state. Socialists masquerading as environmentalists won't let power plants be built near the users.
On the Indian Reservations in the SW note the compact, clean burning, super reliable and efficient jet powered power plants close to the users.
It'll never happen in Nor Cali.
Burbank Water and Power has one in the middle of the San Fernando Valley that they NEVER use. I was told it's too costly to start and stop as much that would be needed to adjust with the load.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
 

Xring01

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Burbank Water and Power has one in the middle of the San Fernando Valley that they NEVER use. I was told it's too costly to start and stop as much that would be needed to adjust with the load.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

If your talking about the Plant thats at the HQ's in Burbank, that plant is always running.
Google SCPPA or SCAPPA.... it will tell you all you want to know about the SoCal Munis and the Power Plants they own / operate.

Thats a great plant, I wish SoCal had many more just like it... Its truly needed above and beyond Burbanks needs...

Pretty much all Natural Gas plants are "Gas Turbines" which are basically air plane motors that are re designed to run on Natural Gas.

It is the lowest cost of Power Generation today....
 

Flying_Lavey

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If your talking about the Plant thats at the HQ's in Burbank, that plant is always running.
Google SCPPA or SCAPPA.... it will tell you all you want to know about the SoCal Munis and the Power Plants they own / operate.

Thats a great plant, I wish SoCal had many more just like it... Its truly needed above and beyond Burbanks needs...

Pretty much all Natural Gas plants are "Gas Turbines" which are basically air plane motors that are re designed to run on Natural Gas.

It is the lowest cost of Power Generation today....
That's it. I'm glad they are always running it. It wasn't that way for quiet a while after it was installed. I had a buddy that worked there and we'd ask him about it and he'd keep us updated for when they actually fired it.

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Xring01

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That's it. I'm glad they are always running it. It wasn't that way for quiet a while after it was installed. I had a buddy that worked there and we'd ask him about it and he'd keep us updated for when they actually fired it.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

All new power plants have start up issues...
The problems Burbank had they where using to many foreign manufacturers who didnt interpret the Specs they way they should have...

Which brings back up the topic of Limitations Of Liability, and how that impacts the utilitys...That was a true debacle.

If my memory is correct Alstrom was a key supplier that had to pay up big time on the LOL on that project.

Eventually they got it corrected and fixed... Not on time, not on budget... thats the sacrifice you make with dealing with foreign company's who have no clue about American Standards.


One of the biggest debacles was San Onofre Nuke Plant... Mitsubishi and SCE... I bet the lawyers are still fighting over than... How do you put a true price on shutting down a Nuke plant 25 years early because you screwed up... SCE took it in the shorts big time on that one. Yeah they got their lawyers involved, not sure how much Mitsubishi paid, but I bet is was a boat load, but it would never recoup what SCE lost, because Mitsubishi is still in business.
 

Sleek-Jet

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If your talking about the Plant thats at the HQ's in Burbank, that plant is always running.
Google SCPPA or SCAPPA.... it will tell you all you want to know about the SoCal Munis and the Power Plants they own / operate.

Thats a great plant, I wish SoCal had many more just like it... Its truly needed above and beyond Burbanks needs...

Pretty much all Natural Gas plants are "Gas Turbines" which are basically air plane motors that are re designed to run on Natural Gas.

It is the lowest cost of Power Generation today....

Not all of them. Cat and a few others do a steady business selling reciprocating generation.
 

Xring01

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Not all of them. Cat and a few others do a steady business selling reciprocating generation.

In my world, CAT is not a player at all.... in my world... 50Mega Watts is about the smallest built. GE has some of the most efficient Turbines at that size and has for awhile.

This is Utility Scale generation, not Industrial Generation..

CATs run on diesel as far as I know, and they do not build Nat Gas Turbines... please correct me if I am wrong, if so, thats info I need to know.

THe key reason why that is important is ROI... Return on Investment. Natural gas is cheap compared to deisel... thats not even factoring the emissions. If Utility's burn diesel for generation, then they have to buy emission credits from the Fed Gov, which is basically a fine for using a "Polluting" technology.

Believe it or not, Catalina Island is ran on Diesel Generation... but its a very small load.. like 5-6MW peak. The cost re place all the equipment with Nat Gas, would be a 100 year return on that investment. So SCE just keeps paying the $$$ to run diesel. I proposed a Submarine Power Cable from Long Beach to Catalina laying on the bottom of the ocean many years ago. At that time the ROI was 4-5 years. The Public Utility Commission wouldnt approve it in the rate case. Stupid politicians. That was an easy project with win/win/win for everyone....
Saves SCE rate payers $$$
Higher reliability of electricity to the residents of Catalina
Green Technology replacing Deisel, lower emissions.
 

jonnyd

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Maybe one of the solar experts can chime in on this but what happens with all of the residential solar powered systems that are supposedly feeding power back into the system when the power is turned off? Do the homes have some sort of an automatic switch that senses when the power is out that switches off so power doesn't go into the system?

I have also heard that California is not going to allow off grid systems any longer. If this is correct it really makes you wonder why? Especially if these forced outages continue.
 

Sleek-Jet

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In my world, CAT is not a player at all.... in my world... 50Mega Watts is about the smallest built. GE has some of the most efficient Turbines at that size and has for awhile.

This is Utility Scale generation, not Industrial Generation..

CATs run on diesel as far as I know, and they do not build Nat Gas Turbines... please correct me if I am wrong, if so, thats info I need to know.

THe key reason why that is important is ROI... Return on Investment. Natural gas is cheap compared to deisel... thats not even factoring the emissions. If Utility's burn diesel for generation, then they have to buy emission credits from the Fed Gov, which is basically a fine for using a "Polluting" technology.

Believe it or not, Catalina Island is ran on Diesel Generation... but its a very small load.. like 5-6MW peak. The cost re place all the equipment with Nat Gas, would be a 100 year return on that investment. So SCE just keeps paying the $$$ to run diesel. I proposed a Submarine Power Cable from Long Beach to Catalina laying on the bottom of the ocean many years ago. At that time the ROI was 4-5 years. The Public Utility Commission wouldnt approve it in the rate case. Stupid politicians. That was an easy project with win/win/win for everyone....
Saves SCE rate payers $$$
Higher reliability of electricity to the residents of Catalina
Green Technology replacing Deisel, lower emissions.

Cat owns Solar Turbines.

They also bought MaK, a German ship engine manufacturer, around the turn of the century and produce a whole line of medium speed reciprocating natural gas fired generators. I know this because I am in charge of a 30 MW gen plant that has the big Cat recips.

Wartsilla (sp) and Mitsubishi also make large recip generators.
 

hallett21

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Maybe one of the solar experts can chime in on this but what happens with all of the residential solar powered systems that are supposedly feeding power back into the system when the power is turned off? Do the homes have some sort of an automatic switch that senses when the power is out that switches off so power doesn't go into the system?

I have also heard that California is not going to allow off grid systems any longer. If this is correct it really makes you wonder why? Especially if these forced outages continue.

Grid tied systems shut down when the utility shuts down.

There are a few systems that have a dedicated receptacle that will stay energized. Usually a single use 15amp receptacle. However once the sun goes down that ends as well.


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Sleek-Jet

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IMAG0226.jpg
 

Xring01

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We had one of similar size on our Fast Attack Submarine...
It was a Fairbanks Morse - 16 Cylinder Opposed Piston if my memory is correct....

I used to know some of the Solar Turbine guys in San Diego, again the stuff the built at the time was way to small for our applications.

My expertise comes in at the Substation Level with the Generator Step up Transformers, Breakers, Switchgear, UG Cables, Automation, Protection etc etc etc etc.. My primary customers are the Utility's, Renewable Firms, Power Plants, Big Industrials.
 

Xring01

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Maybe one of the solar experts can chime in on this but what happens with all of the residential solar powered systems that are supposedly feeding power back into the system when the power is turned off? Do the homes have some sort of an automatic switch that senses when the power is out that switches off so power doesn't go into the system?

I have also heard that California is not going to allow off grid systems any longer. If this is correct it really makes you wonder why? Especially if these forced outages continue.

I think BasilHayden is the Palomar Solar guy... He is the expert on majority of your questions.
From my perspective. High density Roof Top solar is a true pain the butt for the utilitys. It creates all kinds of problems for them especially when you get into reverse flow situation. Thats when a system designed to be Step Down, is now running at Step Up, which reduces the life span of the equipment effected, which cost the utility's money, with no way to recoup that costs. Technically the operate at a loss for their Solar Power residential customers. Thats long story that will probably cause shit storm on this thread, probably should have kept my mouth shut about that aspect.

If you install and Automatic Switch with a Solar System, then you should be able to maintain the load at your house, as long as the sun is up. The fear factor comes in, without a Auto Switch, you can generate energy onto the grid, and hurt an electrician who is doing maintenance on the system. Its a huge concern in the industry. Which is why I THINK that Auto Switchs are mandatory. REPEATING MY SELF... Palomar guys know this better than I do.
 

Xring01

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If you are ever out in Chicago, let me know, we are always proud to show the plant off. You can call it a sales call.

I'm manager of electric operations for a municipality west of Chicago.

Really, I think the IEEE T&D Show is in Chicago in May of 2020... I will be there... I assume you will be there????
Maybe there is a bourbon or 5 in our future.
 

Sleek-Jet

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Really, I think the IEEE T&D Show is in Chicago in May of 2020... I will be there... I assume you will be there????
Maybe there is a bourbon or 5 in our future.

I haven't paid attention, but if it is we'll have to meet up at some point.
 

TCHB

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Totalitarian liberal state. Socialists masquerading as environmentalists won't let power plants be built near the users.
On the Indian Reservations in the SW note the compact, clean burning, super reliable and efficient jet powered power plants close to the users.
It'll never happen in Nor Cali.
I have been all over the country in the power industry and have never been to a city that wanted the gas fired combined cycle plant. The higher income people will do everything possible to block the local generation. Local generation goes into the grid and supplies a much larger area than the location of the plant.
 

Sleek-Jet

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Do you ever go to Power Gen. Great show.

No, our travel budget is very limited and almost all out of state travel is denied. There are a few shows I'd like to get to, I just have to wait until (if) they come to Illinois.
 

TCHB

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No, our travel budget is very limited and almost all out of state travel is denied. There are a few shows I'd like to get to, I just have to wait until (if) they come to Illinois.
I always like my direct reports to go to all the shows they could. It really helps them see what is going on outside their fence.
 

DWC

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I always like my direct reports to go to all the shows they could. It really helps them see what is going on outside their fence.
Couldn’t agree more. Have my team spend one day a month rotating with people on our team. The other 3 months with someone outside our area. Teaching others what you do is good. Seeing what others in your position are doing ensures you don’t believe your own BS. Best thing I’ve done..
 

rrrr

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Examination of the true causes of recent fires have been lost in the furor over power outages. The situation has been developing for decades, and now there's no way to fix it except to turn off the power.

The real culprits in the increased property damage and deaths from wildfires are ignored. Forests have been allowed to grow wild for generations. Tree counts per acre were in the low 100s a century ago, now they're over 300. Pine beetle infestations have killed millions of trees, and they stand in forests ready to burn. Undergrowth and deadfalls have increased the forest floor fuel load over 300% in California's national forests.

Environmental groups and liberal politicians have used every method available to prevent logging in the state. Intelligent and sustainable harvesting would provide jobs, benefit the economy, reduce lumber costs to consumers, and most of all reduce the risk of uncontrollable fires.

This will never happen with the liberals in charge. Their policies have wreaked havoc on the state, and killed dozens of people, but PG&E gets the blame.

Another major factor in losses is human encroachment into the mountains and forests. Homes built in forested areas require power, which the utility must provide per their charter. But again, environmentalists force the utilities to accept right of way corridors that are too narrow to safely run power lines, and state regulators deny rate increases to pay for proper maintenance of those ROW corridors. This increases the probability that catastrophic fires will occur.

Like the drugs and feces in the streets, these conditions are courtesy of failed liberal policies. Forest management experts have been pushed aside, and a bunch of idiots elected by other idiots believe they know better than the experts.
 

Racey

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So let me get this straight, CA government dictates a limit on rate increases, CA government dictates wage/insurance/compliance costs, CA govt dictates can't go in and cut trees in preventative measure, CA government dictates that fires started by utilities are the liability of the utility..... So they back the utility into a corner and then everyone blames the utility for saying 'Fuck it' the only reasonable way to navigate this red tape is to shut the power off....

This is exactly what CA voted for.

In other news, it looks like CA is losing another large business soon: https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...ith-developer-convicted-of-tax-fraud-1590994/
 

RiverDave

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So let me get this straight, CA government dictates a limit on rate increases, CA government dictates wage/insurance/compliance costs, CA govt dictates can't go in and cut trees in preventative measure, CA government dictates that fires started by utilities are the liability of the utility..... So they back the utility into a corner and then everyone blames the utility for saying 'Fuck it' the only reasonable way to navigate this red tape is to shut the power off....

This is exactly what CA voted for.

In other news, it looks like CA is losing another large business soon: https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...ith-developer-convicted-of-tax-fraud-1590994/

Wow!!
 

TPC

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Burbank Water and Power has one in the middle of the San Fernando Valley that they NEVER use. I was told it's too costly to start and stop as much that would be needed to adjust with the load.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

Most the In Basin plants like Burbank were being converted over to combine cycle.
That means the efficient Jet fired generators are installed on premise to power air cooled generators and the hot jet engine exhaust gasses are used to make steam that will roll the old turbines at the plant. Fantastic system.
LADWP did it at Valley Generating Station and Harbor Generation station.
It all stopped when Jerry Brown re entered the governor's office.
0823bbc366a434a77caf0ea1b292d96c.jpg
 
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rrrr

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So let me get this straight, CA government dictates a limit on rate increases, CA government dictates wage/insurance/compliance costs, CA govt dictates can't go in and cut trees in preventative measure, CA government dictates that fires started by utilities are the liability of the utility..... So they back the utility into a corner and then everyone blames the utility for saying 'Fuck it' the only reasonable way to navigate this red tape is to shut the power off....

This is exactly what CA voted for.

In other news, it looks like CA is losing another large business soon: https://www.reviewjournal.com/local...ith-developer-convicted-of-tax-fraud-1590994/

What a stupid headline. Haas paid his debt to society over ten years ago, he's bringing jobs that will benefit Las Vegas, and all the schmuck reporter talks about is Haas's legal troubles.

This society we live in gets more fucked up every day.
 

rrrr

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Most the In Basin plants like Burbank were being converted over to combine cycle.
That means the efficient Jet fired generators are installed on premise to power air cooled generators and the hot jet engine exhaust gasses are used to make steam that will roll the old turbines at the plant. Fantastic system.
LADWP did it at Valley Generating Station and Harbor Generation station.
It all stopped when Jerry Brown re entered the governor's office.
0823bbc366a434a77caf0ea1b292d96c.jpg


California and New York are intentionally screwing their citizens by removing natural gas as a power source for new power plant builds. Soon there's going to be a huge winter storm that will illustrate the folly of dependence on solar and wind power.

When people freeze to death because there's no gas for power and heating, maybe they'll wake up.
 

was thatguy

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What a stupid headline. Haas paid his debt to society over ten years ago, he's bringing jobs that will benefit Las Vegas, and all the schmuck reporter talks about is Haas's legal troubles.

This society we live in gets more fucked up every day.

Bastard probably had to commit tax fraud just to operate in CA.

As far as the rest of Raceys post it’s right on the money, as always.
 

Flying_Lavey

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California and New York are intentionally screwing their citizens by removing natural gas as a power source for new power plant builds. Soon there's going to be a huge winter storm that will illustrate the folly of dependence on solar and wind power.

When people freeze to death because there's no gas for power and heating, maybe they'll wake up.
The city of San Luis Obispo is actually passing some crap to get natural gas furnaces removed from the city limits via incentives. Yet their electricity is stupid high and Diablo (damn near next door) is getting shutting down.

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Xring01

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What City Officials and Politicians are clue less about, is the necessity of Base Load Power Plants near the Load.

The further away the Power Plant is from the load, add's alot to the cost of the energy to those long distance customers.

But the biggest item is after a Power Outage, re energizing the grid is 10X more difficult if there is no base generation. The term thats way above my paygrade is referred to as Enertia. That combined with VARS (Reactive Energy) are needed to get Electricity to Flow... without flow, then no electricity...

Base Load Power Plants provide the Enertia and VARS that help bring Long Distance Power Lines back to life after sustained outages...

Without them, means it may take alot longer to get the lights back on.

Again, City Officials and Politicians are absolutely clueless about this. I work in the industry barely have a working knowledge of it. The PE's (Certified Pro Engineers) are the ones that need to at the City Council meetings educating these fools.

I wonder how long its going take to blame the LA fires on SCE or LADWP.... I know its coming... Power Line will probably be 25 miles away from the origin of the fire, but it will still be there fault... The reason why I am saying this, is because SCE and LADWP own the Transmission Lines that are in the area of those fires.

The reason why they will be blamed, is because they can be sued.... But if Mother Nature is the cause, then you cant sue that bitch...

Californias have to have someone to blame and sue. and most important create an Evil Label for.. If not they cant sleep at night...

IF they cant sue the Utility's I bet Pelosi and Shift will blame Trump and try to impeach him for it...
 
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Racey

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What a stupid headline. Haas paid his debt to society over ten years ago, he's bringing jobs that will benefit Las Vegas, and all the schmuck reporter talks about is Haas's legal troubles.

This society we live in gets more fucked up every day.

I agree, and that was my first comment to my friend that sent it to me....

I mean you don't have to ignore the fact that he got himself into a tax scheme a decade ago, but is that really the 'Headline'? The important substance of the article?

Apparently to the soy douche at the paper it is....
 

Yellowboat

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This was talked about and planned for, 40 years ago. The money for maintenance went to managers and stock holders. I was there and pushed back along with almost every other employee. Anytime you delay maintenance in your car, boat, homes, schools, roads, utilities and what ever, it comes back and bites you in the ass. There's not one working man here that can't tell you in detail what the outcome will be.
Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Pay now or pay a butt load more later
 

Yellowboat

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Bastard probably had to commit tax fraud just to operate in CA.

As far as the rest of Raceys post it’s right on the money, as always.
I know as a small contractor is .ca, it's impossible too follow all the rules and make it. Hell, even know all the rules is a huge task. At one point I had 13 plumbing cards. Every municipality had thier own card. You would think the one for Sacramento county would be good the entire county. Nope, needed one for sac city, Rancho Cordova, citrus heights and all unincorporated areas. Placer, Eldorado and Yolo counties were similar. At least yolo county the card was good every where other then davis. Most of you had one from a "approved" municipality, you did not have too test. Just give us $25-100 a year.

What's funny is you could drive 10 miles and pass thru 5 different card areas. All of the those cards were with in 35 miles of my home.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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What a stupid headline. Haas paid his debt to society over ten years ago, he's bringing jobs that will benefit Las Vegas, and all the schmuck reporter talks about is Haas's legal troubles.

This society we live in gets more fucked up every day.

Why didn't they say Haas was "justice affected" and move on?? Oh yea, hes an old white guy.
 

Uncle Dave

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We're looking at a Microturbine for building 1 and a tier 4 cat for building 2..


UD
 

Mr. C

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rrrr

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4Waters

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First and most important. May he RIP. And prayers to his family.

Why. Knowing you are on oxygen would you not be prepared when you knew the chances of power being shut off were about 100%. And then fuck newscum and his comments.


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This might be the same person. This family was ready but the power went off in the middle of the night and no one knew until it was too late. Let the lawsuits begin.

https://fox40.com/2019/10/11/polloc...n-oxygen-tank-lost-power-during-pge-shut-off/
 

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highvoltagehands

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This might be the same person. This family was ready but the power went off in the middle of the night and no one knew until it was too late. Let the lawsuits begin.

https://fox40.com/2019/10/11/polloc...n-oxygen-tank-lost-power-during-pge-shut-off/
The family is full of shit and the fake media is selling it to all buyers.
"The El Dorado County Sheriff’s office said Friday that an autopsy determined that the death of 67-year-old Robert Mardis minutes after the blackout was due to severe coronary disease, not the loss of electricity. The office said the investigation has closed."
 
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