Hard Rock Hotel Collapse

[Nordie]

Kinda thought that was lost in translation for a while...

And rip to any lost souls in this debacle.

It wasn't...I chuckled a little

 

[BlockHead]

Top inspector was recently suspended.
https://www.nola.com/news/courts/article_72a7d72e-df1f-11e9-97c7-83f3619becbf.html

 

[TITTIES AND BEER]

Good question, there will be engineers involved, x-rays will be happening, and there may be a chance where they almost rebuild the building (like after an airplane crash) to see what happened. It's a toss up at this point and time. I would lean a little more towards this building is coming down.

Ya maybe demo back to good meat and go forward , I for 1 wouldn’t want my name on it

 

[Blackmagic94]

How does that even happen??

Honestly it seems easy to me. I’m in nyc now and I honestly don’t understand how they build these structures around me. Nyc is probably the best at doing it and it still seems sketchy. So imagine how NO does it with half the budget and talent.

 

[Bobby V]

I can't believe those cranes remained standing.....especially the one furthest from the camera in Nordie's picture above.
A literal shit ton of concrete flooring slammed into the side of it even though it was attached to the building frame.

Usually the crane will have a large concrete pad poured for the base. And then braced to the floors. Luckily it didn’t come down.

 

[DirtyWhiteDog]

The 2 large steel moment frames in the middle of the building (stairs &elevators)would have been the center shear structures that all the floors would be tied to. Although not complete , it still looks like over loading at the outer edges of the building. As for the inspectors, they are a minor player in overall structural design.

 

[RandyH]

Looks Like the German Tower Cranes are holding up whats left. I bet that operator has a story to tell.

 

[rivrrts429]

Usually the crane will have a large concrete pad poured for the base. And then braced to the floors. Luckily it didn’t come down.

They’re often built in what will become the elevator shafts of the building.

 

[Icky]

Looks Like the German Tower Cranes are holding up whats left. I bet that operator has a story to tell.

Climb down ??? Nope fuck that air lift me outta here

 

[FreeBird236]

So what now, is it going to be as hard to figure a remedy as it appears to me?

RIP to all those lost.

 

[69hondo]

This is sad for all involved. Unfortunately this is going to happen more and more. The way these buildings are designed these days and the schedules makes this inevitable. I deal directly with the design team on these buildings in LA and I can tell you that plans are approved and construction starts now before the building is even finished design. Use to be you might get 1 plan bulletin update and only so many RFIs through out the entire project. Now there are at least half a dozen bulletins and 100 RFIs before the project even breaks ground. The project I am currently on is on plan bulletin #9 and we are only on the third elevated deck.

 

[Luvnlife]

Looks like the crane supports were comprised and one crane seems to be leaning. Another problem to address. My money is on that a floor got overloaded.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nordie]

This is sad for all involved. Unfortunately this is going to happen more and more. The way these buildings are designed these days and the schedules makes this inevitable. I deal directly with the design team on these buildings in LA and I can tell you that plans are approved and construction starts now before the building is even finished design. Use to be you might get 1 plan bulletin update and only so many RFIs through out the entire project. Now there are at least half a dozen bulletins and 100 RFIs before the project even breaks ground. The project I am currently on is on plan bulletin #9 and we are only on the third elevated deck.

This is absolutely true. I did a small tiltup 36,000sqft, We got to delta 9 on just that building alone.

Right now I am on bridges and it's not even close to that, the design has been done, and sure I can RFI anything I want, and I am 50/50 on approval from the engineer.

Towers on the other hand with tight schedules they get pretty crazy, I don't miss working on towers. Bridges are a lot harder, but I have begun to enjoy them.

 

[69hondo]

This is absolutely true. I did a small tiltup 36,000sqft, We got to delta 9 on just that building alone.

Right now I am on bridges and it's not even close to that, the design has been done, and sure I can RFI anything I want, and I am 50/50 on approval from the engineer.

Towers on the other hand with tight schedules they get pretty crazy, I don't miss working on towers. Bridges are a lot harder, but I have begun to enjoy them.

its crazy right!
You are right about bridges they are way more designed. I think because they have to stick to the standards at least here in California. I always liked bridges, wish my company would get back to doing them.

 

[Nordie]

its crazy right!
You are right about bridges they are way more designed. I think because they have to stick to the standards at least here in California. I always liked bridges, wish my company would get back to doing them.

I'm located in Nevada and the designs pretty model Cal Trans standards, as we are very seismically active as well, plus bridges are designed with a 50 year life span now. I'm no engineer or anything, and I only have to only worry about 1 trade, but sitting in meetings and also speaking with engineers has taught me a ton. Towers (high rises) things have to keep moving forward and happen at a very high rate of speed. I'm fortunate to have an open line of communication to engineers in hopes of getting answers within a couple days albeit they can take up to 30 days. They run models and calcs that I can not even fathom, I thought I was good at math lol....

 

[69hondo]

I'm located in Nevada and the designs pretty model Cal Trans standards, as we are very seismically active as well, plus bridges are designed with a 50 year life span now. I'm no engineer or anything, and I only have to only worry about 1 trade, but sitting in meetings and also speaking with engineers has taught me a ton. Towers (high rises) things have to keep moving forward and happen at a very high rate of speed. I'm fortunate to have an open line of communication to engineers in hopes of getting answers within a couple days albeit they can take up to 30 days. They run models and calcs that I can not even fathom, I thought I was good at math lol....

Yeah I am with you there. The calcs they have to figure is crazy thats why I just dont get the push these days to move so much faster. Things are going to get missed. If money talks was ever true it is now in this industry. Owners dont care what it cost just get it done sooner.

 

[Deckin Around]

City inspections or lack of did not bring that building down. Probably some notice of delay forms and a few change orders for "trade damage" repairs coming.
Just backcharge the drywall company $100mil for stocking it wrong.

 

[Icky]

Thats going to be one dangerous demolition

 

[rickym20]

Taking a closer look at the video posted with the drone, The metal decking used was a type that is used for long spans which makes sense for the application to eliminate the amount of beams required. Less beams means less interference for the mechanical equipment as riverroyal pointed out. I would imagine the big spans would make it easier to overload during construction phases of not careful. They might have loaded it like a typical structural steel building where beams are placed closer together giving more support.
There are some other things I see done differently then we would do in Southern California but that most likely is seismic related more than anything.

 

[riverroyal]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-r...-video-purports-to-show-concerns-days-before/

and here it is.....not enough structural steel to hold the weight. This collapse was a blessing in disguise. It would have fallen at some point killing 100s.

 

[HNL2LHC]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-r...-video-purports-to-show-concerns-days-before/

and here it is.....not enough structural steel to hold the weight. This collapse was a blessing in disguise. It would have fallen at some point killing 100s.

Wow, interesting read that does not make it look good for several firms.

 

[SoCalDave]

this was posted on FB recently

 

[Nordie]

Those spans are huge...A lot of people are going to have some splaining to do...

It's kind of interesting in construction, even the workers knew it was fucked, but kept going. I know I have done this many many times, but the engineers know it. I still think the contractor cut corners on this deal however. I wonder if the deck was properly button punched?

 

[Nordie]

Something else that concerns me, is in one of the pictures I see there's a Labor Finders t-shirt. What the heck is a temp labor service even doing on a massive commercial site like that? I have used Labor Finders before on custom homes, they were there just to clean up the mess I made from doing demo. Or we would hire them to help clean, but that was it, I wouldn't even allow them on a ladder.

 

[riverroyal]

Something else that concerns me, is in one of the pictures I see there's a Labor Finders t-shirt. What the heck is a temp labor service even doing on a massive commercial site like that? I have used Labor Finders before on custom homes, they were there just to clean up the mess I made from doing demo. Or we would hire them to help clean, but that was it, I wouldn't even allow them on a ladder.

its the south....also the video looks real dusty they might be there for clean up only

 

[BajaMike]

its the south....also the video looks real dusty they might be there for clean up only

It’s not just the South, it’s Louisiana, which operates under French Canon Law, while all other 49 states base their laws on English Common Law. I was a contractor (in a completely different industry) in New Orleans for five years.

There are no conflict of interest laws in Louisiana law (at least there were not then). I contracted with the City of New Orleans, Orlean Parish and Jefferson Parish. I was advised to hire a specific attorney who was also an assistant city attorney and I had another who was in the state senate, chairman of the committee who regulated my industry.

I objected at first, saying if they are my lawyers, they can’t vote on my issues at the various agencies, due to conflict of interest laws. I was advised “Not in Louisiana”.

All my contracts were approved by the various agencies and if payments were slow coming in, these attorneys got them paid immediately.

Nothing unethical was done and all the contracts were completely fair and it was not huge amounts of money, but I can image how things might work for the big companies.

Doing business in Louisiana is “different”.

 

[sirbob]

It’s not just the South, it’s Louisiana, which operates under French Canon Law, while all other 49 states base their laws on English Common Law. I was a contractor (in a completely different industry) in New Orleans for five years.

There are no conflict of interest laws in Louisiana law (at least there were not then). I contracted with the City of New Orleans, Orlean Parish and Jefferson Parish. I was advised to hire a specific attorney who was also an assistant city attorney and I had another who was in the state senate, chairman of the committee who regulated my industry.

I objected at first, saying if they are my lawyers, they can’t vote on my issues at the various agencies, due to conflict of interest laws. I was advised “Not in Louisiana”.

All my contracts were approved by the various agencies and if payments were slow coming in, these attorneys got them paid immediately.

Nothing unethical was done and all the contracts were completely fair and it was not huge amounts of money, but I can image how things might work for the big companies.

Doing business in Louisiana is “different”.

I lived in LA. for a short time - I could go on and on about the differences in law and how things are done...

Just one example was the company (based in CT.) I worked for had GE credit union for us - I bought a new car and after going through getting approved etc they asked for the address to send the paperwork for me to sign.

When I gave them my LA. address they said sorry we don't do loans in LA. imagine GE credit union would not do business in the state.

I've got a bunch of those types of examples about living there.

 

[Bigbore500r]

Those spans are huge...A lot of people are going to have some splaining to do...

It's kind of interesting in construction, even the workers knew it was fucked, but kept going. I know I have done this many many times, but the engineers know it. I still think the contractor cut corners on this deal however. I wonder if the deck was properly button punched?

It would blow my mind that enough corners could be cut with continous inspection in place, for something like this to happen. If the structure was executed to plan and still failed, the party responsible for engineering will hold blame. Even in that case - the GC will hold blame because they should have identified an unsafe condition and halted work when post-shores started buckling. Lots of variables as to how the contract for that project is structured and who owns the design(s). Crazy shit

 

[Bigbore500r]

I lived in LA. for a short time - I could go on and on about the differences in law and how things are done...

Just one example was the company (based in CT.) worked for had GE credit union for us - I bought a new car and after going through getting approved etc they asked for the address to send the paperwork for me to sign.

When I gave them my LA. address they said sorry we don't do loans in LA. imagine GE credit union would not do business in the state.

I've got a bunch of those types of examples about living there.

I'm fresh off a New Orleans trip. The entire french quarter is a fire trap or structural collapse waiting to happen. Just being in some of those crowded bars and looking around at the structure and practically non-existent fire/life/safety made me cringe. But like a good american....I kept drinking and partying

 

[rrrr]

In the 80s I worked on a project in Austin that required immediate and significant structural reinforcing because of large decking spans. The decking deflected during concrete pours, and the crew was using lasers to establish the finished floor height as it was poured. The crews kept pumping more concrete because it wasn't up to the correct elevation, it deflected more, and they added more concrete, and...

The building was up to the third floor before the error was discovered. There was discussion of tearing it down.

 

[sirbob]

I'm fresh off a New Orleans trip. The entire french quarter is a fire trap or structural collapse waiting to happen. Just being in some of those crowded bars and looking around at the structure and practically non-existent fire/life/safety made me cringe. But like a good american....I kept drinking and partying

Gee that overloaded balcony could crash down at any min... I better get another drink before that happens - the line will be impossible if that thing comes down!!

 

[Bigbore500r]

Gee that overloaded balcony could crash down at any min... I better get another drink before that happens - the line will be impossible if that thing comes down!!

Exactly! We were on a balcony that was so sketchy I couldn't take it and went back inside. I asked somebody who worked there about how it could hold a crowd during Mardis Gras, he said the city goes around and installs support posts under all the french quarter balconies for safety prior to that weekend. Crazy.....

 

[Nordie]

It would blow my mind that enough corners could be cut with continous inspection in place, for something like this to happen. If the structure was executed to plan and still failed, the party responsible for engineering will hold blame. Even in that case - the GC will hold blame because they should have identified an unsafe condition and halted work when post-shores started buckling. Lots of variables as to how the contract for that project is structured and who owns the design(s). Crazy shit

I don't

its the south....also the video looks real dusty they might be there for clean up only

The thing is, is even the workers seemed to know the structure was not right. This whole ordeal sucks all the way around. I think from an engineering standpoint it was not correct. The GC may have let it ride, but the actual boots on the ground saw the problems and let it go. It's not their fault as they trust the engineers. I wonder if there were RFI's, or anything.

 

[HBCraig]

Looks Like the German Tower Cranes are holding up whats left. I bet that operator has a story to tell.

Hell yeh the German cranes are standing.

In all seriousness, tower cranes are a different animal. Different sizes, straight jib, fluffing jib, etc

 

[riverroyal]

GC allowed workers to work. Engineering firm may have design flaws but GC opened the site
If workers knew the GC knew
Lawsuits will be to GC from victims.
GC lawsuit will be to engineering and design.
Businesses on the block will sue for income loss as well

 

[monkeyswrench]

GC allowed workers to work. Engineering firm may have design flaws but GC opened the site
If workers knew the GC knew
Lawsuits will be to GC from victims.
GC lawsuit will be to engineering and design.
Businesses on the block will sue for income loss as well

Lawsuits will fly, and rightfully so. I don't know anything of iron or slab work, that stuff tended to be done already. I find it hard to believe the post-shoring was that loaded, deflecting that badly, and someone still went ahead. I can't imagine putting my crew at that risk. Maybe it happens like that on jobs, and that much sag is acceptable. If it is, then OK. If it were excessive, then work should have been halted.

 

[rickym20]

Just trying to figure out what the engineering firm was thinking on this design by those spans. I don’t have face book so I didn’t see any pictures from there other then what was shared here. Would be interested in seeing how the reinforcing was done on top of the deck. The metal deck alone will not hold the floors up but putting deck/rebar and concrete together can achieve structural integrity once concrete is FULLY cured with right mix design.

I’m not saying what they did here was correct (obviously wasn’t) , just curious on it all. I am an Ironworker that has worked the last 21 years installing metal decking for the same company so this interest me . Always like learning good and bad about things that effect my career.

This specific type of decking allows for big spans(not this big) and doesn’t have the typical male/female connection at the seems. Also will not lap on perpendicular sides cause of the shape . This pic shows the shape.

This is a snapshot from the video posted earlier.

judging by the height of the sleeves it looks like a thick slab for that deck . Just so much questions.......

 

[rrrr]

Good observation about the sleeves.

 

[rmarion]

GC allowed workers to work. Engineering firm may have design flaws but GC opened the site
If workers knew the GC knew
Lawsuits will be to GC from victims.
GC lawsuit will be to engineering and design.
Businesses on the block will sue for income loss as well

unfortunately for "All the Subcontractors" on this project, they will absorb every cent that is paid out in the lawsuit... at fault or not at fault.... even the graders who have been off this site for a minimum of a year..

every sub on the project (unless it's an OCIP, which I hope it WAS!!!) is required to provide insurance with all owners, GC and most Architects held harmless ... that means ... when lawsuits FLY (and they will) the Subs insurance company's absorb all costs incurred in the lawsuit (up to a noted amount stipulated in the contract).

OCIP, is a "Owner Controlled insurance program" where the Owner cover all insurance on the project...

I'd hate to see non-fault quality Subs.. brought down with this shit....
Lawyers will be looking for the "Deep Pockets" Subcontractors...

PS, how could that structure shear off along the crane grid line???

makes ya go hmmmm, was the PT deck engineered or applied properly around the crane opening????
RIP all the brothers and sisters who did not come home that day

 

[Bobby V]

Just trying to figure out what the engineering firm was thinking on this design by those spans. I don’t have face book so I didn’t see any pictures from there other then what was shared here. Would be interested in seeing how the reinforcing was done on top of the deck. The metal deck alone will not hold the floors up but putting deck/rebar and concrete together can achieve structural integrity once concrete is FULLY cured with right mix design.

I’m not saying what they did here was correct (obviously wasn’t) , just curious on it all. I am an Ironworker that has worked the last 21 years installing metal decking for the same company so this interest me . Always like learning good and bad about things that effect my career.

This specific type of decking allows for big spans(not this big) and doesn’t have the typical male/female connection at the seems. Also will not lap on perpendicular sides cause of the shape . This pic shows the shape.
View attachment 808109


This is a snapshot from the video posted earlier.
View attachment 808111

judging by the height of the sleeves it looks like a thick slab for that deck . Just so much questions.......

That picture looks like a BIM 3D snapshot. We usually install our sleeves a few inches longer then the actual finish concrete.

 

[rickym20]

That picture looks like a BIM 3D snapshot. We usually install our sleeves a few inches longer then the actual finish concrete.

The finishers love you guys when you do that . Either way it’s a small observation in the system on this deck. I am sure this will be tied up in the courts for years and the final conclusion will not be released until after everything is settled years down the road.

I’ve got to work in different parts of this country doing the same thing , it’s a trip to see different construction methods in different parts . Design and quality levels vary from one extreme to the other. Right now that most the Country is booming , Skilled Engineers , General Contractors, and workforce are stretched thin opening the door for unskilled firms/workforce do work .

 

[Racer56]

Well we won't ever have to worry about a building collapsing in California. Our engineer's and building codes have a safety factor of 200% or more. Shit s stupid pergola here required grade beam's and steel column's. I can't tell you how many plans I see that are so overkill design wise, they will withstand a nuclear Holocaust. If you ever wonder why we have the biggest homeless population in the country, try building something in California!

 

[rickym20]

Well we won't ever have to worry about a building collapsing in California. Our engineer's and building codes have a safety factor of 200% or more. Shit s stupid pergola here required grade beam's and steel column's. I can't tell you how many plans I see that are so overkill design wise, they will withstand a nuclear Holocaust. If you ever wonder why we have the biggest homeless population in the country, try building something in California!

so true haha, here are a couple of pictures of some iron at a hospital in Loma linda. They built it on pedestal’s in preparation for the fault line it’s sitting on......

 

[Dalton]

heard through the grapevine, something like this isn't for sure a career ender, sure the company name will no longer exist but the people will go on to other jobs in the industry, without much problem

 

[Bobby V]

so true haha, here are a couple of pictures of some iron at a hospital in Loma linda. They built it on pedestal’s in preparation for the fault line it’s sitting on......

View attachment 808167
View attachment 808166

Didn't the addition of those pedestals cost them $$$$$$$$ for the redesign of the building. Heard that from the fire sprinklers contractor the other day.

 

[riverroyal]

we only set sleeves high in water prone areas, like janitor closets or shaft edges. Its pretty simple, the decking span was too much. Or the deck material was incorrect for the span. Or the floor weight was calculated incorrect. Not enough structural steel, which is a cost saving and a overall factor for weight on the lower podium which looks like a parking structure.
This thing started to flex before any building materials were on the floor. The calculations were WAY off.
They got very lucky. It was going to fail at some point. Only 3 dead is miracle.

 

[Ziggy]

Its coming down. There will be too much risk leaving it up. As in engineering and inspection unaswered questions

Liability.

 

[Icky]

so true haha, here are a couple of pictures of some iron at a hospital in Loma linda. They built it on pedestal’s in preparation for the fault line it’s sitting on......

View attachment 808167
View attachment 808166

When I saw this earlier I didn't notice the person standing under that little beam

 

[rickym20]

Didn't the addition of those pedestals cost them $$$$$$$$ for the redesign of the building. Heard that from the fire sprinklers contractor the other day.

I am sure you are right, I honestly don’t know the amount it cost them. the isolators itself looked impressive.

 

[Old Texan]

Per the CBS article, Heaslip Engineering was the design team. From their website, this project is far larger and more than anything pictured in their portfolio. Their commercial experience is more 2-3 storied small buildings.

Not drawing any conclusions or making inferences, but they may not have been the firm for such a complex multi-type of structure. Team looked pretty young to have been on this type of job before. I'm sure the investigation will bring all the facts forward.

In my time in industrial sales, companies designing buildings this complex typically have several individual teams all larger that the whole of Heaslip Eng. Just making a point......

The principal engineer on the project, Heaslip Engineering, issued a statement Wednesday that described the firm as "devastated" by the collapse. James Heaslip, the firm's founder, didn't speculate in the statement over what caused the collapse.
"As a member of the design team, we are keenly interested in finding out why this incident occurred," the statement from founder James Heaslip read.

https://www.heaslipeng.com/commercial