Building a fire resistant room (UPDATE)

[EmpirE231]

So I am in the process of building a safe "closet" in my garage. Trying to make it as fire resistant / burglar resistant / insulted as possible.... but on a semi budget.

I am planning on still using wood framing / 2x4 construction walls. Has anyone used the fire resistant paint? does it actually work? Considering painting all the framing with this.

Planning on using the fire resistant insulation, such as this...

Owens Corning 15 in. x 47 in. Thermafiber Fire and Sound Guard Unfaced Mineral Wool Insulation Batt SG-25-P3--15--47--221 - The Home Depot

Thermafiber Fire and Sound Guard mineral wool insulation is designed to provide exceptional acoustic control and fire protection in interior walls as well as floor and ceilings in residential and light

www.homedepot.com

Is this good insulation, or is there something better in that price range?

The plan is to wrap the framing in some thick 1" plywood, and then use the fire resistant drywall over it, unless someone has some better suggestions that doesn't require some crazy construction skills.

temperature.... if I want this closet to have better temperature than the rest of my garage, should it be ventilated, or closed off? I'd like it to stay much cooler in there for food storage.

 

[Javajoe]

Depends on what level of security and fire rating you want. If you use plywood use PyroGuard treated ply. Lumber yards have it. I know Ganahl has it. Use a 1 hour rated metal clad door and non removal pin hinges. You can also use expanded metal behind the drywall. If it’s well insulated it will help with heat but just depends on exterior wall heat. May still get hot. Everything needs to be Fire caulked and outlet boxes / switch boxes need fire putty pads. Google fire wall assemblies and pick one that works for you whether it’s a 1 or 2 hour rated assembly.

 

[Nordie]

Build it out of block, fill every cell...

 

[lbhsbz]

My first thought it bury a 500 gallon water tank...with a pump, line the room with 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall, use a temp/fire detector or sorts and set up a sprinkler system....PVC pipes with lots of little holes drilled in them to saturate the walls. Kinda like the inside out version of what the Getty museum has.

 

[EmpirE231]

Build it out of block, fill every cell...

that was my original idea, but wouldn't work too well with my DIY skills and still wanting to run some electrical in there. Plus, it has a small loft above the area, that is already wood framed.

 

[DLC]

Do you plan on hiding inside for just in case? If so you’ll need some type of vent system to the outside for fresh air.

a 1 hour hall way is an envelope of 5/8 inch drywall so a 2hr is 2 layers of 5/8 drywall|.

you could use 6inch metal studs For more insulation space and space 12”OC hard to squeeze thru 12” OC spacing

expanded metal is hard to cut thru and takes longer Along with fire proof plywood

electrical EMT piping Instead of Rome’s or MC cable

in case your house does catch fire your electric panel will go down fairly quickly So no electric

 

[EmpirE231]

Do you plan on hiding inside for just in case? If so you’ll need some type of vent system to the outside for fresh air.

a 1 hour hall way is an envelope of 5/8 inch drywall so a 2hr is 2 layers of 5/8 drywall|.

you could use 6inch metal studs For more insulation space and space 12”OC hard to squeeze thru 12” OC spacing

expanded metal is hard to cut thru and takes longer Along with fire proof plywood

electrical EMT piping Instead of Rome’s or MC cable

in case your house does catch fire your electric panel will go down fairly quickly So no electric

Don't really plan on hiding in it, but in the case of a fire or burglary, I'd like it to be the last room standing sort of deal. I didn't know there was fire rated plywood avail... is that something you can get at HD or Lowe's? my initial plan is to create a sandwich of fire rated drywall, onto thick plywood, connected to the fire insulated 2x4 frame, followed by another layer of plywood and fire rated drywall. I did plan on adding some sort of wiring / mesh (maybe stucco style wire) for one extra layer of protection.

metal framing sounds interesting as well, but I am assuming would require some welding?

 

[racektm]

Don't really plan on hiding in it, but in the case of a fire or burglary, I'd like it to be the last room standing sort of deal. I didn't know there was fire rated plywood avail... is that something you can get at HD or Lowe's? my initial plan is to create a sandwich of fire rated drywall, onto thick plywood, connected to the fire insulated 2x4 frame, followed by another layer of plywood and fire rated drywall. I did plan on adding some sort of wiring / mesh (maybe stucco style wire) for one extra layer of protection.

metal framing sounds interesting as well, but I am assuming would require some welding?

Light gauge metal framing, it all screws together. Fire treated plywood can be found at any commercial lumber yard. with all of these layers, make sure your door jamb is the right width, I'd use a fire rated hollow metal frame with the correct throat size to swallow the entire assembly.

 

[wishiknew]

Do you plan on hiding inside for just in case? If so you’ll need some type of vent system to the outside for fresh air.

a 1 hour hall way is an envelope of 5/8 inch drywall so a 2hr is 2 layers of 5/8 drywall|.

you could use 6inch metal studs For more insulation space and space 12”OC hard to squeeze thru 12” OC spacing

expanded metal is hard to cut thru and takes longer Along with fire proof plywood

electrical EMT piping Instead of Rome’s or MC cable

in case your house does catch fire your electric panel will go down fairly quickly So no electric

MC cable does have a 2 hr fire rating

 

[Nordie]

Home Depot does sell the fire rated plywood. I had to cut some for my brother. If I remember correctly a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 was around $45. I have no idea what the rating of it is, could always double 5/8s drywall over it lol. There's a lot of companies out there that sell safe doors that are fire rated. The Evanston house that I worked on had a hidden safe door, it weighed around 1200lbs. The safe room had 3 safes and it's own ventilation system, but it was solid grouted block which is why I said what I said. We also installed bullet proof glass in certain rooms. Guess that's what happens when you're wealthy in Chicago.

 

[Badchoices03]

Use Rockwool (formally Roxul) insulation for sure, it similar to the insulation you posted above, but its made of Basalt rock (lava rock), because its made from this, its naturally waterproof and fireproof to 2150 degrees, and even then it will melt before it catches fire.

here are a couple of cool videos comparing the types of insulation

 

[DLC]

How big of a room do you think you want? 5x8, 10x12 or 15?

by the time you buy all the stuff you could probably just slap up some masonry blocks. Go 11 blocks Tall add Ele drops grout then tie in some rebar 12” OC each way for a 6 inch thick ceiling Structure. A mason would be able to whip that out in less than 2 days and it’s done!

And it’s a brick shit house
you would need less than 400 blocks (8x8x16) for a 10x12 Room blocks are $1.55 ea Depot plus rebar And concrete grout

 

[EmpirE231]

How big of a room do you think you want? 5x8, 10x12 or 15?

by the time you buy all the stuff you could probably just slap up some masonry blocks. Go 11 blocks Tall add Ele drops grout then tie in some rebar 12” OC each way for a 6 inch thick ceiling Structure. A mason would be able to whip that out in less than 2 days and it’s done!

And it’s a brick shit house
you would need less than 400 blocks (8x8x16) for a 10x12 Room blocks are $1.55 ea Depot plus rebar And concrete grout

room will be roughly around 10x14

 

[EmpirE231]

I should add, two of the walls are exterior walls (built into a corner).... will that insulation posted above also serve a good R value? or should something else be used there?

 

[EmpirE231]

has anyone used a fire resistant pain they recommend? something for painting the existing framing?

 

[DLC]

Wood stud vrs metal

you can use a self tapper screws to attach the metal studs together Metal studs come in different gauges I would think a 20 ga would be the lightest garage to go with 18 or 16 ga would give more vert support

The Final Round: Wood vs. Metal Studs for Interior Walls

Choose your side! Before you start with your project, it's crucial that you understand the differences between wood vs. metal studs.

www.industrialdrywallcalifornia.com

 

[CLdrinker]

Not worried about bullets?

 

[EmpirE231]

Not worried about bullets?

nope. Not really a panic room, just a very secure / fire resistant closet.

 

[DirtyWhiteDog]

Tap into a cold water line and add a fire sprinkler inside or above it. You can use pex or cpvc.

 

[Bowtiepower00]

If you’re looking to build a room to keep stuff safe during a fire, good luck. Go back to hula’s house fire thread for example. If your house burns, it’s going to take a lot to keep your valuables safe.

 

[$hot]

All of the fire ratings you see on building materials are based on ordinary combustibles. Most of today’s products are built with highly flammable materials that burn hotter, so a 30 or 60 min rating is only good for less than half that in the real world.

translation... your couch, bed, clothing is all going to burn hot as fuck

 

[Justfishing]

A double layer of drywall. Dense pack the stud cavities with cellulose insulation. Caulk with a fire rated caulk. Air leakd equal fire leaks

 

[yz450mm]

20 gauge 6 in steel stud walls, two layers of 5/8 Type X drywall on each side of the wall with joints staggered so that no two line up, fill all air space inside the wall with properly installed wool insulation, fire caulk all seams at bottom/top/sides. Keep combustibles as far away from the exterior as possible, and use a steel 2 hour fire rated door.

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[Mandelon]

We sometime use Hardi or Durock instead of drywall. It's cementitious and should do better than a gypsum and paper product. You could do a layer of each though. Steel Studs, cut em with tin snips, bend the tab over and screw together, really easy. Fire proof insulation. Steel door.

Also option is Haener block. They stack like legos, then you fill up the cells with concrete after and it bonds them all together. No mortaring skills needed.

 

[EmpirE231]

20 gauge 6 in steel stud walls, two layers of 5/8 Type X drywall on each side of the wall with joints staggered so that no two line up, fill all air space inside the wall with properly installed wool insulation, fire caulk all seams at bottom/top/sides. Keep combustibles as far away from the exterior as possible, and use a steel 2 hour fire rated door.

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this sounds pretty legit. What plywood would you use to sandwich in between to add a layer of defense? Something to make it more difficult to break into?

the room will be cornered into the existing garage, so 2 walls are already wood framed w/ stucco exterior. Im guessing I can coat that framing with the fire resistant paint and do the wool insulation / firerated drywall there, and do the other 2 walls like you mentioned with the steel studs.

 

[yz450mm]

this sounds pretty legit. What plywood would you use to sandwich in between to add a layer of defense? Something to make it more difficult to break into?

the room will be cornered into the existing garage, so 2 walls are already wood framed w/ stucco exterior. Im guessing I can coat that framing with the fire resistant paint and do the wool insulation / firerated drywall there, and do the other 2 walls like you mentioned with the steel studs.

You could use flat expanded metal, or perforated sheet metal in between the layers of drywall to give it a bit more security. Each layer of 5/8 Type X drywall, if properly sealed and fire caulked, gives you a 1 hour fire rating.

Instead of using the garage walls as the walls of your enclosure, build an additional stud wall up against the interior of the exterior walls, with two layers of drywall on the inside and outside.

Use 3 5/8 20 gauge steel studs for the roof, and space them at 12 inches for more protection from roof collapse. Do two layers on the inside, and two layers on the outside, with wool insulation.

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[EmpirE231]

You could use flat expanded metal, or perforated sheet metal in between the layers of drywall to give it a bit more security. Each layer of 5/8 Type X drywall, if properly sealed and fire caulked, gives you a 1 hour fire rating.

Instead of using the garage walls as the walls of your enclosure, build an additional stud wall up against the interior of the exterior walls, with two layers of drywall on the inside and outside.

Use 3 5/8 20 gauge steel studs for the roof, and space them at 12 inches for more protection from roof collapse. Do two layers on the inside, and two layers on the outside, with wool insulation.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

really thinking about going this metal stud route... but how does this hold up in the terms of strength (someone trying to break into the room)? Especially if not using any plywood on it?

seems like the wood framing with plywood sheeting and drywall would be the strongest, and metal studs with drywall only would be the most fire resistant.

 

[Bobby V]

really thinking about going this metal stud route... but how does this hold up in the terms of strength (someone trying to break into the room)? Especially if not using any plywood on it?

seems like the wood framing with plywood sheeting and drywall would be the strongest, and metal studs with drywall only would be the most fire resistant.

@BHC Vic is a instructor and has a lot of experience with framing rooms with steel studs. That’s all they really use these days on most commercial buildings. I have seen steel stud rooms built with heavy duty steel mesh Attached and then drywall.

 

[BHC Vic]

I didn’t read the whole thread, I just briefly skimmed the op and Bobby’s post. Why not build a shaft? Steel j track, steel ch studs, core board (shaft liner) and drywall. I’ll read the whole thread in a bit I’m just finishing up a sketch up for the boss man.

 

[BHC Vic]

Just read it. Two layers on each side would be just fine. I thought you were going tight to the safe and wouldn’t be able to hang the inside. Was thinking like under the stairs. M buddy just did something like that.

 

[BHC Vic]

Fire rated high impact board is what we use at a lot of schools. You can’t punch through that.

 

[TX Foilhead]

I’m doing a one room at a time remodel and from what I’ve found the fire resistant materials seem to be geared more to slowing a fire down not protecting people inside while the house burns down. I’m going to add some rock wool insulation to the walls in my laundry room and where I can around the kitchen. The Idea is to contain a fire in those places where one is likely.

Out west I can see it being more useful around the perimeter of a house to keep the house from burning while a brush fire burned through the property.

 

[EmpirE231]

Fire rated high impact board is what we use at a lot of schools. You can’t punch through that.

never knew there was impact rated drywall... I'll have to check this out. Thanks

 

[EmpirE231]

another question re: this room. The corner of the garage it will be built into has 2 of those metal vents close to the floor. Should I be sealing off these vents? Or will the help in keeping the room cooler? I will have some emergency food / water stored in there, so the cooler it stays, the better. Is a sealed off well insulated room cooler than a ventilated room?

 

[Howardflat]

You can also do multiple layers of drywall. From what ive seen this is what they do in gun safes for the fire rating in minutes. At least thats whats inside my gun safe. Also mybe run chicken wire or something in between the drywall laminations and secure it to the studs so someone might have to work a little harder ro get in. For food storage ideally you want it cool. like 60-70*. Also no humidity.

 

[EmpirE231]

Another question. What do you guys think would be harder to break through / cut through? Chicken type wire / stucco wire / or welded wire?

 

[rrrr]

No one has pointed out the treatment of the existing exterior walls and ceiling. You should apply a layer of ⅝" Type X drywall to the existing walls and ceiling using 1⅝" drywall screws to attach it to the wood studs and joists before proceeding with the new framing. You'll need to tape the joints and bed the screws to obtain the proper fire rating.

You will also need to purchase a hollow metal door frame and metal Type B 1½ hour fire rated door for the room. Order the door and a 4⅞" throat frame mortised for a lockset and deadbolt.

The ceiling of your room can then be framed with 2½" metal studs and track to allow the installation of the electrical, then cover with ⅝" drywall. The wall framing, using 3⅝" metal studs, should be butted against the exterior walls. Sheetrock one side of the other two walls, install the door frame (see YouTube) add electrical, insulate, then finish the drywall. Fire caulk (available at HD) the perimeter of electrical boxes. Hang the door.


Burglars aren't going to be carrying a sawzall. If you screw expanded metal plaster lath to the framing (use wafer head self tapping framing screws) on the exterior side before installing the drywall, the plywood is just an added expense IMO. Besides, it will require a custom made door frame with a 7⅞" throat instead of the standard 4⅞" throat. You'll need to stop the lath covering about 6” from the door frame because drywall won't fit inside the frame with the added thickness of the lath. Just add additional metal studs to support the termination of the lath.


This will result in a one hour rated enclosure. You don't need to use two layers of drywall anywhere except an additional layer of ⅝" applied to any existing drywall before erecting the framing. Fire rated paint can be applied to the existing studs and joists before covering them. Unless you live in the middle of Nowhere miles from any town (like Headless Hula was), the fire department is going to show up long before a one hour enclosure is breached.

Don't overthink this and spend money you don't need to.

 

[Mandelon]

another question re: this room. The corner of the garage it will be built into has 2 of those metal vents close to the floor. Should I be sealing off these vents? Or will the help in keeping the room cooler? I will have some emergency food / water stored in there, so the cooler it stays, the better. Is a sealed off well insulated room cooler than a ventilated room?

Those vents are typically there to provide combustion air for the dryer, furnace or water heater. As they operate the fire inside uses up the oxygen in the room. Those vents allow makeup air into the garage.

 

[hallett21]

No one has pointed out the treatment of the existing exterior walls and ceiling. You should apply a layer of ⅝" Type X drywall to the existing walls and ceiling using 1⅝" drywall screws to attach it to the wood studs and joists before proceeding with the new framing. You'll need to tape the joints and bed the screws to obtain the proper fire rating.

You will also need to purchase a hollow metal door frame and metal Type B 1½ hour fire rated door for the room. Order the door and a 4⅞" throat frame mortised for a lockset and deadbolt.

The ceiling of your room can then be framed with 2½" metal studs and track to allow the installation of the electrical, then cover with ⅝" drywall. The wall framing, using 3⅝" metal studs, should be butted against the exterior walls. Sheetrock one side of the other two walls, install the door frame (see YouTube) add electrical, insulate, then finish the drywall. Fire caulk (available at HD) the perimeter of electrical boxes. Hang the door.


Burglars aren't going to be carrying a sawzall. If you screw expanded metal plaster lath to the framing (use wafer head self tapping framing screws) on the exterior side before installing the drywall, the plywood is just an added expense IMO. Besides, it will require a custom made door frame with a 7⅞" throat instead of the standard 4⅞" throat. You'll need to stop the lath covering about 6” from the door frame because drywall won't fit inside the frame with the added thickness of the lath. Just add additional metal studs to support the termination of the lath.


This will result in a one hour rated enclosure. You don't need to use two layers of drywall anywhere except an additional layer of ⅝" applied to any existing drywall before erecting the framing. Fire rated paint can be applied to the existing studs and joists before covering them. Unless you live in the middle of Nowhere miles from any town (like Headless Hula was), the fire department is going to show up long before a one hour enclosure is breached.

Don't overthink this and spend money you don't need to.

Timely makes an adjustable frame up to 7 7/8ths. Might even go bigger. But I agree with what your'e saying

 

[rrrr]

Timely makes an adjustable frame up to 7 7/8ths. Might even go bigger. But I agree with what your'e saying

Are they fire rated? It's been several decades since I owned a drywall company. I was in my 20s.

 

[hallett21]

Are they fire rated? It's been several decades since I owned a drywall company. I was in my 20s.

90 min rated with no glazing. 45 min with glazing.

Haha no worries just figured id post they are available if the OP wants to go buck wild

Frame actually goes from 3 3/4 to 9 1/8 after looking it up. All of this is based upon ordering in Los Angeles. Not sure about other areas.

 

[hallett21]

OP do you have fire sprinklers in the house?

 

[EmpirE231]

OP do you have fire sprinklers in the house?

no fire sprinklers

 

[BHC Vic]

Are they fire rated? It's been several decades since I owned a drywall company. I was in my 20s.

We could go back to the shaft walls and get regular doors.

 

[EmpirE231]

Update: seeking more advice....

So the purpose of the room is to fire resistant / break in proof, but to also try to keep the temp inside as cool as possible (will be storing emergency canned and dry foods) Living in the inland area, the temps can get pretty warm in the summer, but usually cools off at night.

Should I be blocking off these lower vents? or should I keep them functional? I can also add a vent in the ceiling which would just vent to the loft area of the garage? what is the best method for me keeping this room cooler than the rest of the garage, short of having to add an air conditioner?

Keep in mind, this will be boxed in, 2 more walls need to go up from the 4x4 post to each wall, and it will be a small square room (about 10x10) and the entire thing will be insulated with the rockwool material. rood will also be sprayed w/ the fire resistant white paint.

Ideas??

 

[hallett21]

How hot does the garage outside of the room gett?

 

[EmpirE231]

How hot does the garage outside of the room gett?

on hot days it will get in the mid 90's, up to 100 on a real hot day. During the summer, it's pretty common for the outside temp to get into the mid 90's regularly, and some hot weeks get to low / mid 100's... but at night it gets back down into the mid 60's, sometimes 70's. The rest of the garage isn't insulated, but will be eventually.

 

[BHC Vic]

Foam

 

[DLC]

1/2 Painted ( some what weather proof) plywood and then insulation.

without any means to cool the room it will only be 10-15 degrees ( guessing at best ) cooler than the garage, what temp are you looking for?

if you open the room In the evening and early morning to allow cool air inside, then close it up it will keep it cooler than the garage.

youll need some good insulation in between those rafters R30 is 10 inch thick insulation

 

[EmpirE231]

1/2 Painted ( some what weather proof) plywood and then insulation.

without any means to cool the room it will only be 10-15 degrees ( guessing at best ) cooler than the garage, what temp are you looking for?

if you open the room In the evening and early morning to allow cool air inside, then close it up it will keep it cooler than the garage.

youll need some good insulation in between those rafters R30 is 10 inch thick insulation

I think ideal food storage temp is mid 70’s... I know that is hard to achieve, but keeping it in the80’s on the hottest days would prob be fine

just wondering if having both those lower vents in place helps, or if I should block them off? Keep one? Idk what works better.

I could possibly get creative and keep one vent open and wire up a programmed fan to it that sucks in the cooler air at night?