If you choose not to Vaccinate....

[LargeOrangeFont]

Lets remove the treat /no treat variable because thats ridiculously severe.

IF that person is on a corporate plan I am paying their bill (or their company is) and their choices effect everyone else on that plan.

If you chose no to wear a helmet and have a wreck - there should be some consequence to that decision in terms of what you pay to get treated, or what society owes you if you get laid up for life because of your choice.

You CANNOT be a smoker or obese, or an alcoholic and get independent insurance for any reasonable amount of money today- you will pay for your choices. The ONLY way these people get plans is under a corporate umbrella which anonymizes their choices.

What people want is unlimited personal choice with no consequence and for someone else to picks up the tab if it all goes pear shaped.

I think the kids on bicycles are at extremely low risk and Im ok with society helping out children that have bicycle wreck. (we do anyway)
If we look at the data we should probably be helmeting them in the tub/ shower.
I think once you get into skateboard parks and stuff like that it changes.

For the purposes of this thread specifically, look what happened today.. the J&J vaccine is being halted. I'm not against a covid vaccine, but I don't buy new cars the first year they come out (Speed UTV being the exception ) I'm not going to take version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus that has a .0001% chance of killing me and I have to be tested to even know I have it.

Insurance IS someone paying for the consequences of your personal choices.... that is the entire premise of insurance, to be made whole when things go bad.

But you still are not "paying" for your choices. You are paying a higher premium sure, but it is still insurance and you are still lumped into the risk pool. You are not paying the full bill for your care in many cases, even when you factor in the premiums. I'm talking about the average person here, even one that is overweight or smokes/drinks. I have paid way more into the system than I have taken out.

I'm for all for personal responsibility, but it does not cost $500 to see a doctor for 10 mins. It does not cost $65,000 to be in the hospital for 2 days to birth a child. and that is the problem. Let the markets decide pricing and let people decide what level of care they want.

 

[Racey]

No one has answered why Trump would bother getting the vaccine and urge everyone else to do the same?

Yes i did

Duped...

https://odysee.com/@SaveMedia:5/capitol-clarity-ryan-cole-on-covid-19-vitamin-d-vaccine-concerns:2 Sheeple are easily duped...

www.riverdavesplace.com

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

No one has answered why Trump would bother getting the vaccine and urge everyone else to do the same?

He's the leader of a country. He wants to be done with this entire situation as a country. The political and social ramifications of this virus were far worse than the virus itself.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Yes i did

Duped...

https://odysee.com/@SaveMedia:5/capitol-clarity-ryan-cole-on-covid-19-vitamin-d-vaccine-concerns:2 Sheeple are easily duped...

www.riverdavesplace.com

You talking about the Don in that or the guy that was on the vid?

 

[Uncle Dave]

He's the leader of a country. He wants to be done with this entire situation as a country. The political and social ramifications of this virus were far worse than the virus itself.

So a guy that never caved to anything in his life caved to political pressure on it?

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

So a guy that never caved to anything in his life caved to political pressure on it?

He caved and compromised on issues all the time as do most people in politics and business. He was a figure head for a country. He was doing what was needed to end this overreaching stupidity.

He already had the virus.. he didn't even NEED the vaccine according to everything we have been told, right? How do we know he even got it? It could have been a b12 shot.

Remember Jao said the vaccine wasn't even around until after he took office

To your original point, If I don't get the vaccine and get sick, give me the HCQ/Zinc/Vitamin D treatment that I will pay for and I will be on my way. That should be like what, $20? I think I can afford that.

 

[ramos45]

No one has answered why Trump would bother getting the vaccine and urge everyone else to do the same?

Because he is free to do so just like many others I know who took the shot and advocate it. Myself and few others I know don't care whether or not you (proverbial sense) where a mask or get the shot. We care when it matters to you whether we take/wear it or not.

 

[Racey]

You talking about the Don in that or the guy that was on the vid?

It should be clear, the guy in the video isn't in his 70s

 

[Uncle Dave]

He caved and compromised on issues all the time as does most people in politics and business. He was a figure head for a country.

He already had the virus.. he didn't even NEED the vaccine according to everything we have been told, right? How do you know he even got it? It could have been a b12 shot.

Remember Jao said the vaccine wasn't even around until after he took office.

Given he wants to call it the "Trumpcine" he's pretty proud of it - you think he'd lie?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Because he is free to do so just like many others I know who took the shot and advocate it. Myself and few others I know don't care whether or not you (proverbial sense) where a mask or get the shot. We care when it matters to you whether we take/wear it or not.

Why wouldnt the just say "take HCQ (or remdisivir or ivermectin) like I did? "

 

[Uncle Dave]

It should be clear, the guy in the video isn't in his 70s

Then I missed your reply on the Don.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Given he wants to call it the "Trumpcine" he's pretty proud of it - you think he'd lie?

No, he just wants credit for it. Given that Jao said it didn't exist before Jan 21, can you blame him?

 

[Uncle Dave]

For the purposes of this thread specifically, look what happened today.. the J&J vaccine is being halted. I'm not against a covid vaccine, but I don't buy new cars the first year they come out (Speed UTV being the exception ) I'm not going to take version 1.0 of a vaccine for a virus that has a .0001% chance of killing me and I have to be tested to even know I have it.

Insurance IS someone paying for the consequences of your personal choices.... that is the entire premise of insurance, to be made whole when things go bad.

But you still are not "paying" for your choices. You are paying a higher premium sure, but it is still insurance and you are still lumped into the risk pool. You are not paying the full bill for your care in many cases, even when you factor in the premiums. I'm talking about the average person here, even one that is overweight or smokes/drinks. I have paid way more into the system than I have taken out.

I'm for all for personal responsibility, but it does not cost $500 to see a doctor for 10 mins. It does not cost $65,000 to be in the hospital for 2 days to birth a child. and that is the problem. Let the markets decide pricing and let people decide what level of care they want.

Something like 20% of the peeps consume 80% of the service -

You should see what a month in the ICU costs.

 

[Uncle Dave]

No, he just wants credit for it. Given that Jao said it didn't exist before Jan 21, can you blame him?

If he wants credit it must be because he believes it works. Otherwise he'd shy away wouldnt he?

On J&J - like I said before they are the fauci of pharma. How do we trust they aren't lying now.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Something like 20% of the peeps consume 80% of the service -

You should see what a month in the ICU costs.

Exactly. Just like 10% of the population commits 99% of the crime.

You ever ask to pay for something at the DR's office out of pocket with no insurance? If you can get them to actually tell you, you'd be shocked to see the difference between that and what the cost is on the "description of care" insurance sends you.

I had a ER visit in Lake Havasu once for my son who dislocated his elbow. If I went through my insurance, the ER visit was a $100 copay. To my surprise they said If I just paid them outside my insurance it was $120 if they billed me directly, or $80 if I paid right then.

I paid the $80 right then outside of my insurance. I imagine if I had gone through my insurance I would have paid the $100 ER copay, and got a description of care for over $3000, since a simple DR checkup for a kid is like $700 via insurance.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

If he wants credit it must be because he believes it works. Otherwise he'd shy away wouldnt he?

On J&J - like I said before they are the fauci of pharma. How do we trust they aren't lying now.

Of course the vaccine "works" we just don't yet know how well or for how long. But it works damn well to shut people up and open the country.

What big pharma isn't lying? They are all for profit that are more focused on continuing treatment rather than cures.

 

[was thatguy]

 

[Racey]

Why wouldnt the just say "take HCQ (or remdisivir or ivermectin) like I did? "

Maybe because he's not a doctor, he's not now or never given medical advice on how to treat anyone who is infected....

You know every case is different, doctors are gonna use treatments they are familiar and comfortable with, case by case, Trump went with the therapies his Presidential Physician recommend, remember? not HCQ, not Ivermectin, he didn't take those to treat it, he wasn't on them when he caught it that we know of.

"I would recommend it and I would recommend it to a lot of people that don't want to get it and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly," Trump told Fox News' Maria Bartiromo.
"But again," he continued, "we have our freedoms and we have to live by that and I agree with that also. But it is a great vaccine. It is a safe vaccine and it is something that works."

Bubba the Love Sponge and two other staffers caught it last week, His doctor friend that is a co-host has had him and the rest of the staff that wanted it on an HCQ prophylactic for almost a year. Bubba tested Positive on Wednesday Afternoon, was sick through the weekend and had a negative test already yesterday, Monday. He's on the air today along with the other co-host that caught it.

He's 300lbs and 55 years old


Why does everything have to be some big onion to peel back?

 

[Uncle Dave]

View attachment 991821

When I was kid my dad caught me smoking one of his Camels.
He decided to teach me a lesson and made me smoke a whole pack.
Thats when I learned the lesson of brand loyalty.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Maybe because he's not a doctor, he's not now or never given medical advice on how to treat anyone who is infected....

You know every case is different, doctors are gonna use treatments they are familiar and comfortable with, case by case, Trump went with the therapies his Presidential Physician recommend, remember? not HCQ, not Ivermectin, he didn't take those to treat it, he wasn't on them when he caught it that we know of.





Bubba the Love Sponge and two other staffers caught it last week, His doctor friend that is a co-host has had him and the rest of the staff that wanted it on an HCQ prophylactic for almost a year. Bubba tested Positive on Wednesday Afternoon, was sick through the weekend and had a negative test already yesterday, Monday. He's on the air today along with the other co-host that caught it.

He's 300lbs and 55 years old


Why does everything have to be some big onion to peel back?

But he has advocated and doubled down later on HCQ for prevention and told everyone he was talking it remember? ...and now the vaccine.

Clearly he is not recommending HCQ now there is a vaccine.

Dint know bubba but Iv heard the show is entertaining. Glad he's good I dont wish illness on anyone.

why the layers ? A complex multilayered problem rarely has a simple answer/solution.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Of course the vaccine "works" we just don't yet know how well or for how long. But it works damn well to shut people up and open the country.

What big pharma isn't lying? They are all for profit that are more focused on continuing treatment rather than cures.

I think we share distrust of Big Pharma - they aren't coming clean on gun violence connection thats for sure.
I do think science gets some things right.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

But he has advocated and doubled down later on HCQ for prevention and told everyone he was talking it remember? ...and now the vaccine.

Clearly he is not recommending HCQ now there is a vaccine.

Dint know bubba but Iv heard the show is entertaining. Glad he's good I dont wish illness on anyone.

There are 2 levels of prevention, prevention of getting the virus, and preventing it from being as bad if you get it. Trump advocated for both. Just as you, he wished illness on no one.

 

[Uncle Dave]

There are 2 levels of prevention, prevention of getting the virus, and preventing it from being as bad if you get it. Trump advocated for both. Just as you, he wished illness on no one.

The choices absolutely suck.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I think we share distrust of Big Pharma - they aren't coming clean on gun violence connection thats for sure.
I do think science gets some things right.

Science gets a lot of things right. Science mixed with a political agenda gets 100% of things wrong. it is in the left's best interest for gun control, and big pharma's best interest for profits to not bring up anything related to prescription drugs and violence.

Rewind a year, we were being told in April 2020 several million people WILL be dead in a year. - Inaccurate total as of today - 562K total deaths claimed to be from Covid. Only 460 people died from it yesterday across the country.
Gavin Newsom said 25 Million Californians WILL be infected by summer 2020. - Total (inaccurately inflated) case number as of today 3.7M cases in CA.
The virus was said to have a 3% mortality rate.. well we know that isn't the case.

All of these "facts" were off by orders of magnitude, and were used to set policy a year ago that was never corrected even when the science shows otherwise.

All climate change "settled science" data has been inaccurate.

 

[Racey]

But he has advocated and doubled down later on HCQ for prevention and told everyone he was talking it remember? ...and now the vaccine.

Clearly he is not recommending HCQ now there is a vaccine.

Dint know bubba but Iv heard the show is entertaining. Glad he's good I dont wish illness on anyone.

why the layers ? A complex multilayered problem rarely has a simple answer/solution.

He said "He had heard some promising things out of France" if i remember correctly, and then his white house doctor had given him a prophylactic Rx when two white house staffers tested positive, it lasted 2 weeks and that was it. BTW He didn't catch it then..... Many doctors have used it with great results, then, and still. And once again he never recommended it to anyone, you are mincing words there. This is what the deranged left does, Trump said he heard good things, then later gets asked if he is taking it, and now all of a sudden "Trump is recommending medicines".....

It's not binary you know, just because he says the vaccine is good doesn't now instantly mean that HCQ, or Ivermectin has to be bad. You know they both have their places right? There are more than one way to treat this just like almost every other virus.....

The choices absolutely suck.

Well guess what, life aint easy. And this isn't the only part of it where "The Choices Suck"

 

[Christopher Lucero]

I hope this is received as informative. The impact of any emergent condition is its impact upon health statistics. In this case, the 'excess mortality' is topical since it is the gravest concern for the pandemic.

select countries:


USA Only:



source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores?country=~USA

 

[Uncle Dave]

I get it isnt binary I also get there weren't many options around.

We can agree to disagree that the tweets about HCQ weren't advocation for it, but he chose to tweet about it and did so many many times.

Im the left...? ouch!

for sure life aint easy...

 

[Uncle Dave]

Science gets a lot of things right. Science mixed with a political agenda gets 100% of things wrong. it is in the left's best interest for gun control, and big pharma's best interest for profits to not bring up anything related to prescription drugs and violence.

Rewind a year, we were being told in April 2020 several million people WILL be dead in a year. - Inaccurate total as of today - 562K total deaths claimed to be from Covid. Only 460 people died from it yesterday across the country.
Gavin Newsom said 25 Million Californians WILL be infected by summer 2020. - Total (inaccurately inflated) case number as of today 3.7M cases in CA.
The virus was said to have a 3% mortality rate.. well we know that isn't the case.

All of these "facts" were off by orders of magnitude, and were used to set policy a year ago that was never corrected even when the science shows otherwise.

All climate change "settled science" data has been inaccurate.

Dont get me started on Newsom - we're 390 days into "just 2 weeks".

Lots of claims were made by lots people that weren't at all true on all sides of this issue.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Dont get me started on Newsom - we're 390 days into "just 2 weeks".

Lots of claims were made by lots people that weren't at all true on all sides of this issue.

Exactly my point. The incomplete science was politicized and the political mouthpieces from all sides ran with flawed info and preached it as truth. They didn't even know if it was true or not.. but it was just SOMETHING to say and put out there.

And now we are back to the vaccine. It is just another SOMETHING to fill the void. no one has any idea if there are long term effects, etc.

 

[Uncle Dave]

yes, and then turn that on its head and imagine being 30 yrs old. Not a problem.

honestly, my mother died during the SARS 2012 thing. Right after an alaska cruise. (the headlines about the Grand Princess that was isolated at the beginning of the pandemic included a guy from our community here in north LA County and his wife...they are local radio station owners. I know them,)

Mom was diagnosed with 'pneumonia' (that is not a disease, it is a condition) and merely given palliatives and then docs sat on thumbs for two months watching her get sicker, then diagnosed lung cancer based on lung xrays. Three months from cruise to grave.

Again, honestly, I think we arrived at a state of diagnosis that allowed us to detect and diagnose diseasemuch better, and thus the medical profession started to do so, and they found an initial test case in the covid19 virus. There's a good TQ in the Economist from last month describing much of my speculation.

Thats terrible man...sorry.
So many doctors are just flat mediocre.

What do you call a guy that graduates in the bottom 1% of his class from a medical school in the caribbean? " Doctor"

 

[Racey]

Exactly my point. The incomplete science was politicized and the political mouthpieces from all sides ran with flawed info and preached it as truth. They didn't even know if it was true or not.. but it was just SOMETHING to say and put out there.

And now we are back to the vaccine. It is just another SOMETHING to fill the void. no one has any idea if there are long term effects, etc.

And on top of that the defacto means of communication banned any dissent, critique, or discussion that wasn't in lock step with their propaganda.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Thats terrible man...sorry.
So many doctors are just flat mediocre.

What do you call a guy that graduates in the bottom 1% of his class from a medical school in the caribbean? " Doctor"

thank for being sympathetic...it is a rare thing with all the trolling that happens in shared media. very kind of you. exceptionally kind and notably noble.
the good news is that technology is accelerating our capability to get ahead of infectious vectors like viruses and bacteria and other teeny creatures. as I said, the pandemic we are currently in is likely the first salvo in humanity's ultimate search to defeat disease, reduce suffering, and prolong life. and to think we owe alot of it to e-coli and a phage from the tuberculosis mycobacterium.

 

[Uncle Dave]

And on top of that the defacto means of communication banned any dissent, critique, or discussion that wasn't in lock step with their propaganda.

This is a big problem. Tech currently enjoy the freedoms of a platform while excersizing the "curation" rights of publishers. They cannot be allowed to have it both ways.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

^^^Isn't this like a citizens untied vs. FEC issue? If not, we get to choose either free market capitalism or regulation of free speech, right?
(My comment here 'may not fit the narrative')

 

[RitcheyRch]

 

[Racey]

This is a big problem. Tech currently enjoy the freedoms of a platform while excersizing the "curation" rights of publishers. They cannot be allowed to have it both ways.

Exactly, i've tried to explain this point for years....

 

[just_floatin]

Just for shits and googles, goggle “WHO's the most powerful Doctor in the world” Remember follow the money I mean science.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Just for shits and googles, goggle “WHO's the most powerful Doctor in the world” Remember follow the money I mean science.

I find it notably hilarious those who are not the 'most powerful doctor'.

It should surprise no one that industrial job creators, titans, those who provide economic vigor broadly, whose products we all use, who show up day after day to find the dollars people are willing to spend: it should be no surprise that these people might 'accidentally' become the world's most powerful doctors from trying to seek economic benefit...because in the end _economy_ is about serving people what they want, and getting them to spend their dollars on it.

FWIW, Gates had his product stolen and utilized broadly for many years (1980's, 1990's).

 

[just_floatin]

I find it notably hilarious those who are not the 'most powerful doctor'.

It should surprise no one that industrial job creators, titans, those who provide economic vigor broadly, whose products we all use, who show up day after day to find the dollars people are willing to spend: it should be no surprise that these people might 'accidentally' become the world's most powerful doctors from trying to seek economic benefit...because in the end _economy_ is about serving people what they want, and getting them to spend their dollars on it.

FWIW, Gates had his product stolen and utilized broadly for many years (1980's, 1990's).

Spoken like the legal department at Goggle and nothing to do with Big Tech arbitrarily labeling the most powerful doctor search result a homosexual power hungry ghoul. Do you also believe Jill Biden is a doctor because Goggle says so.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Spoken like the legal department at Goggle and nothing to do with Big Tech arbitrarily labeling the most powerful doctor search result a homosexual power hungry ghoul. Do you also believe Jill Biden is a doctor because Goggle says so.

hmmm. your words in polemic make you sound injured. It reminds me of a scorch used here: Show me on the doll where the naughty capitalist touched you.

Are you a believer in capitalism?

 

[just_floatin]

hmmm. your words in polemic make you sound injured. Are you a believer in capitalism?

Spun out in the weeds. I will not engage in banter over a comment that started with words “ for shits and goggles”. Carry on.

 

[spectra3279]

I find it notably hilarious those who are not the 'most powerful doctor'.

It should surprise no one that industrial job creators, titans, those who provide economic vigor broadly, whose products we all use, who show up day after day to find the dollars people are willing to spend: it should be no surprise that these people might 'accidentally' become the world's most powerful doctors from trying to seek economic benefit...because in the end _economy_ is about serving people what they want, and getting them to spend their dollars on it.

FWIW, Gates had his product stolen and utilized broadly for many years (1980's, 1990's).

He basically stole it himself

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Spun out in the weeds. I will not engage in banter over a comment that started with words “ for shits and goggles”. Carry on.

I want to make sure I understand. You are mocking...yourself? For fun? If not, it says alot when you cannot / will not answer if you are a fan of capitalism or not, so that in itself is hilarious. I get it...no matter what, you get a chuckle for caricature. Carry on!

 

[Christopher Lucero]

He basically stole it himself

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

would love to hear that explanation. He definitely had foresight where 86-DOS would go. Make a case...I have heard a few before. (I worked on CP/M machines, so there's that.)

 

[Racey]

I remember when Bill Gates would make viruses for your computer then sell you the anti-virus program to remove them, I wonder what he is up to today?

 

[spectra3279]

would love to hear that explanation. He definitely had foresight where 86-DOS would go. Make a case...I have heard a few before. (I worked on CP/M machines, so there's that.)

He got ahold of Steve Jobs Lisa. And then copied it for his own system. Forgot the name of it.

And you know he did not create dos correct?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Uncle Dave]

He got ahold of Steve Jobs Lisa. And then copied it for his own system. Forgot the name of it.

And you know he did not create dos correct?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Actually they both ripped off the Altos from Xerox park.

The "pirates of silicon valley" is not only hugely entertaining its very accurate- but

stopped short of portraying Gates saving apples ass.



The scene where Gates negotiated the license fee for dos to IBM is a story every high end sales guy knows.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

He got ahold of Steve Jobs Lisa. And then copied it for his own system. Forgot the name of it.

And you know he did not create dos correct?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Yes. There were two (three) primary small computer operating systems at the time. One that I worked on - CP/M - was instantiated on an S100 bus platform. The other required a specialized platform that was also known as the 'PC' (a standard set by IBM). IBM created PC-DOS. A small company (I think it was in Pacific Grove or seattle) wrote the source code for what bill gates would purchase from them and modify into "MS-DOS". And there was Apple. Apple II based upon his experience at Xerox PARC.

The PC was based upon an 80xx Intel (initially 8080, then 8086...on). Mac was an MC68000 machine. So, there were three competing hardware platforms that eventually resulted in two...the 68000/AppleDOS and the 80xx/PC-DOS MS-DOS. CP/M s100 died off slowly, there are still S100 aficionados out there.

Lisa was much farther down the line when the Mac was being designed...from this article, it was Jobs who stole Lisa from Xerox Parc.

quoting the article "He (Jobs) persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd seen at Xerox Parc"

and just to be clear, 'his' product (as I referred to above) was primarily software that worked on the PC platform. I feel like that is where Apple had way more overhead in design that Gates never needed to deal with. Any PC owner could merely copy the 3 1/2 floppy of the MS-DOS operating system for use on ANY PC platorm they owned...the theft of IP went on for 20 years...still does, but theives have to work around the 'update' problem.

 

[Uncle Dave]

And you know he did not create dos correct?

Correct the story veers a bit to him buying it from a small computer store, and another from a mechanic running a garage.

but either story was AFTER he closed the deal with IBM.

when he close the deal with IBM he didnt have anything REMOTELY like what had just sold.

 

[spectra3279]

Yes. There were two (three) primary small computer operating systems at the time. One that I worked on - CP/M - was instantiated on an S100 bus platform. The other required a specialized platform that was also known as the 'PC' (a standard set by IBM). IBM created PC-DOS. A small company (I think it was in Pacific Grove or seattle) wrote the source code for what bill gates would purchase from them and modify into "MS-DOS". And there was Apple. Apple II based upon his experience at Xerox PARC.

The PC was based upon an 80xx Intel (initially 8080, then 8086...on). Mac was an MC68000 machine. So, there were three competing hardware platforms that eventually resulted in two...the 68000/AppleDOS and the 80xx/PC-DOS MS-DOS. CP/M s100 died off slowly, there are still S100 aficionados out there.

Lisa was much farther down the line when the Mac was being designed...from this article, it was Jobs who stole Lisa from Xerox Parc.

quoting the article "He (Jobs) persuaded the Apple board to invest in technology copying what he'd seen at Xerox Parc"

and just to be clear, 'his' product (as I referred to above) was primarily software that worked on the PC platform. I feel like that is where Apple had way more overhead in design that Gates never needed to deal with. Any PC owner could merely copy the 3 1/2 floppy of the MS-DOS operating system for use on ANY PC platorm they owned...the theft of IP went on for 20 years...still does, but theives have to work around the 'update' problem.

Jobs didn't technically steal from xerox. The xerox guys didn't want what they had to go to waste. The let jobs basically copy there system to create one of the predecessors to the Mac. But gates did steal from jobs.

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