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Whirl a way

AZLineman

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Anyone in a high horsepower cruiser or any vdrive with a transmission using one? I’m just curious. I kno reverse under any throttle is basically useless but rev is kinda anyway however its saved me when i hav had to stop quickly for channel idiots. Going to try and change some things up over the winter and last summer I had to pull my kill cord at about a hun and I’m here to tell you that the clutches in the T400 did not release and i almost lost my passenger. In reality we were both lucky. Just thinking about options.
 

lenmann

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Anyone in a high horsepower cruiser or any vdrive with a transmission using one? I’m just curious. I kno reverse under any throttle is basically useless but rev is kinda anyway however its saved me when i hav had to stop quickly for channel idiots. Going to try and change some things up over the winter and last summer I had to pull my kill cord at about a hun and I’m here to tell you that the clutches in the T400 did not release and i almost lost my passenger. In reality we were both lucky. Just thinking about options.
Holy shit, everything I have heard indicates that the T400 free wheels when power is cut, hence no need for a whirl-away.

Anything special or unique about your trans?

Can you share the circumstance where you had to pull the kill cord? Not trying to pry, just trying to learn.
 

AZLineman

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Trans is a standard built AC full manual, rev vb th400. Doing a fly by foxes the wed before july 4th 2021 and just installed my new prop from Dallas (11-7/8x16.5) and at wot the secondary linkage bound overcenter on one of the carbs which held both carbs wide open. Soon as i realized it i tried to get my foot under the pedal but it was completely bound up at the carbs/linkage. As loud as my boat is I was able to get her to understand what to do and where to put her hands in a split second and I pulled the cord. The boat was building speed extremely fast and luckily the river was pretty empty and smooth. It had not hit the rev limiter yet but was close. Once we regrouped and I could get her to actually breathe through her shower of tears I went back to investigate and it took quite a bit to unbind the throttle blades/linkage. After playing around with the linkage at home post incident (not the same day, I put the boat on the trailer and drank excessively) there was just one position were a little bit of slack at that secondary linkage allowed the throttle plate to over center and bind in the slide groove on the throttle arm. The slightest bit of play has been engineered out thru cycling and adjustment so it cannot happen again. I had been using the standard Moroso one to one secondary linkage rod which like the factory rod has a little slop with a cotter key since then have gone to the machine and slashed threaded and adjustable style. It was an eye opener and a bit scary however it was extremely traumatic for the girl that was with me. I felt very bad for her. It changed her. Luckily we had a split sec to prepare before i killed it and had vests on. I will also admit that In being an adrenaline junkie my entire life and doing all the crazy things I have done I was always a bit negligent in wearing my vest yet after that you’ll never see me doing anything above a mild cruise without my vest on. Two days later I was sitting at the bar at Fox’s talking to some people and two of the guys there watched it happen and they said even from there it looked gnarly. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
 

lenmann

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Trans is a standard built AC full manual, rev vb th400. Doing a fly by foxes the wed before july 4th 2021 and just installed my new prop from Dallas (11-7/8x16.5) and at wot the secondary linkage bound overcenter on one of the carbs which held both carbs wide open. Soon as i realized it i tried to get my foot under the pedal but it was completely bound up at the carbs/linkage. As loud as my boat is I was able to get her to understand what to do and where to put her hands in a split second and I pulled the cord. The boat was building speed extremely fast and luckily the river was pretty empty and smooth. It had not hit the rev limiter yet but was close. Once we regrouped and I could get her to actually breathe through her shower of tears I went back to investigate and it took quite a bit to unbind the throttle blades/linkage. After playing around with the linkage at home post incident (not the same day, I put the boat on the trailer and drank excessively) there was just one position were a little bit of slack at that secondary linkage allowed the throttle plate to over center and bind in the slide groove on the throttle arm. The slightest bit of play has been engineered out thru cycling and adjustment so it cannot happen again. I had been using the standard Moroso one to one secondary linkage rod which like the factory rod has a little slop with a cotter key since then have gone to the machine and slashed threaded and adjustable style. It was an eye opener and a bit scary however it was extremely traumatic for the girl that was with me. I felt very bad for her. It changed her. Luckily we had a split sec to prepare before i killed it and had vests on. I will also admit that In being an adrenaline junkie my entire life and doing all the crazy things I have done I was always a bit negligent in wearing my vest yet after that you’ll never see me doing anything above a mild cruise without my vest on. Two days later I was sitting at the bar at Fox’s talking to some people and two of the guys there watched it happen and they said even from there it looked gnarly. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Holy shit again, so happy both of you were uninjured and thank you for sharing the details. First thing tomorrow I will be checking and rechecking the linkage on my sled.

Anyone out there in RDP-land care to speculate why the trans didn't free-wheel?
 

sintax

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Holy shit again, so happy both of you were uninjured and thank you for sharing the details. First thing tomorrow I will be checking and rechecking the linkage on my sled.

Anyone out there in RDP-land care to speculate why the trans didn't free-wheel?

I'm certainly not the smartest man...

i'd guess hes not running a TC in that trans, so you'd have to either overcome the friction plates or the engines compression to get it to spin right? Does an automatic transmission release all pressure on the clutch pack if the input pump is not turning? That is the part I dont know.
 

DRYHEAT

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I'm certainly not the smartest man...

i'd guess hes not running a TC in that trans, so you'd have to either overcome the friction plates or the engines compression to get it to spin right? Does an automatic transmission release all pressure on the clutch pack if the input pump is not turning? That is the part I dont know.
Good question, wouldn’t think he’d have a TC but may be some change in the valve body is needed.
 

AZLineman

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No converter and i was always under the impression that with no pump pressure the clutches would release and the trans would freewheel instantly however, you have to keep in mind there is still some internal fluid friction and there’s whole lotta difference between the transmission in a vehicle with the weight rolling down the road with the engine killed in drive or third in this case versus the little bit of resistance of a small two blade propeller going instantly against the water. Completely different dynamic if that makes any sense. It’s not like the prop shaft turns easily by hand while your lying under your boat in the driveway and transmission is in gear. There is a possibility it did turn a lil with the resistance of the water but not enuf to make the abrupt stop any safer.
 
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sintax

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No converter and i was always under the impression that with no pump pressure the clutches would release and the trans would freewheel instantly however, you have to keep in mind there is still some internal fluid friction and there’s whole lotta difference between the transmission in a vehicle with the weight rolling down the road with the engine killed in drive or third in this case versus the little bit of resistance of a small two blade propeller going instantly against the water. Completely different dynamic if that makes any sense. It’s not like the prop shaft turns easily by hand while your lying under your boat in the driveway and transmission is in gear. There is a possibility it did turn a lil with the resistance of the water but not enuf to make the abrupt stop and safer.

Yea, I could see it happening either way honestly.

Maybe someone who’s had their hand inside a few trannys might come along and offer some more informed theory….
 

lenmann

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I would bet @Racey would have some insight here, he has a couple of generations worth of knowledge this field.
 

coolchange

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Just because you pulled the kill doesn’t mean the rotating mass / pump is not still turning.
 

farmo83

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A long time family friend had an big hp cruiser with an ac 3 speed. At least in that boat if you shut down too quickly the prop never freewheeled and the boat was wild as could be. If you got out it slowly all was well. He looked at doing a whirlaway but couldn't make it work on a c500. This was in 81 i think so I'm sure advancements have been made.

Glad yall are safe.
 

farmo83

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Also in addition to racey I would reccomend input from jj bever.
 

BamBam

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Holy shit again, so happy both of you were uninjured and thank you for sharing the details. First thing tomorrow I will be checking and rechecking the linkage on my sled.

Anyone out there in RDP-land care to speculate why the trans didn't free-wheel?
I believe it depends on how it's put together. It is my understanding that the "bands" in the transmission are used to hold the gear when you let off the throttle (think compression braking in a car) The same thing could potentially happen in a boat. I'm not a trans guy so I'm just throwing out a couple ideas.

I have been told you cannot run a whirl-away with reverse as any movement in reverse will simply ratchet the whirl-away.
 

MOUZER

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Night and day difference when you chop throttle, running over 80 is crazy without one.
call me crazy or just stupid
DSCN2487.JPG
mine had a algon prop release but it froze up so i replaced it with 6 nickles in my coupler
 

Eliminator21vdrive

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I have a 400 in my cruiser and id does not freewheel when you let off quick it slows down "REAL" fast. I am by no means a transmission expert but you have two driven members in drive (planetary) and that also provides engine braking. The transmission has no idea if the throttle is up or down so no way to make it freewheel that way and line pressure coming from manual valve body is what tells it what to do.
Again no expert but possibly some other magic in valve body?
 

74 spectra20 v-drive

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This got me thinking.... I had a 65' Elcamino in high school with a turbo 400 in it, and when I let off the gas it would freewheel, so much so that I used to pretend it was a four speed and make it sound like I was shifting. Never found out why it did that, but when engaged it was always solid never slipped. It was behind a Pontiac and I had it rebuilt and that cool feature was no longer there.
 

AZLineman

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I know it was an emergency situation, but if neutral was selected after kill switch was pulled would the power down be a little milder?
If I had a third hand possibly I’m sure it may make some sort of difference but there was no way to do that given the circumstances/timing and trying to keep it away from shore and any other traffic
 

lenmann

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I will chock this up old age, but I asked a similar question regarding cruisers and whirl-aways several years ago and then forgot about it.

Anyway, @AzGeo, who is long longer with us but had a lifetime of v-drive knowledge had an interesting perspective that lines up nicely with @AZLineman's experience.

 

AZLineman

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Great read and thank you for finding that. I’ve heard the 12 inch Rudder thing before and that makes it make more sense. It’s still brings up the question of, or at least a void still exists between the school bus and the Ferrari. There are cruisers that are fast AF and as I learned first hand, a potential problem exists. Def dont wana give up reverse either. Worthless as far as reverse maneuverability but it sure helps slow the moving mass when you’re coming up to the dock or in a crowded environment. It’s probably also very important to know how your boat is going to react in this situation should it happen un expectantly since each will have its own quirks. The wide-open to 20% thing in a controlled environment definitely makes sense in educating the owner operator in a worst case scenario so if in fact a catastrophic failure does happen you kno how its going to react.
 
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