1977 Spectra 24 resuscitation

[queenmerry]

So it looks like I have 3" hose going to 2.5" transom flanges with flappers (I imagine there's a name for those) - as sperocz said above, we'll stick with it for now while we have stock power, and change out to 4" when we power up in a couple years.

When the mechanic was checking them out (I'm heading out to do so tomorrow morning) he said they were small, and looked like they we're bronze - was that typical for spectras, to have 2.5" bronze flanges? Also he said the flappers were pretty trashed, are they easily replaced? (I suppose I'll probably know for myself when I see them tomorrow)

Visiting the boat tomorrow at the mechanic means more pictures, and a coming post on the mechanical state of the old girl, so stay tuned.

Thanks everyone for the info and comments and pics, I suddenly feel like I'm not alone in this thing

 

[spectras only]

Spectra Marine used either polished aluminum tips or chromed brass ones. Gas fillers were screw on Nicson chrome plated brass units or polished flip up cap aluminum ones from other vendors. The ports and runners in your Hardin manifold compared to the Harman units have smaller ports and runners,I think. There are some used Harman manifolds pop up for sale and those you could cut the reducer off to fit larger hose and tips. Your Hardin is in great shape so you should have no problem finding buyers for. There's a guy on the board named Jim Brock who has older parts for sale here and there. Greg Shoemaker would be another source as well.

Ps; the 1977 Ford head has low compression and EGR bumps in the exhaust ports. You could grind out the bumps for better flow or find an early 429 head with higher compression and no EGR bumps. I did that to 460's.

 

[queenmerry]

Hello all at RDP! It's been 4 months since my last post, for one key reason - I haven't gotten to do any work on the boat because it's been at the mechanic. This post is a fairly sad story, and I'll start with one of my favorite quotes:

"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."

If you want to skip all the gory details, I am looking for some advice, so please skip to the *advice needed* section at the bottom of this post. All suggestions welcome!

This being my first ever real mechanical project (besides screwing around with my first car, a 1967 Mustang, doing little things like changing the carb and ignition, but never anything actually inside), I have a lot to learn, and made some dummy moves. I am a mechanical engineer, so I know a fair bit about how engines work, but have basically no experience taking them apart. I also have no shop to work in - my shop is a wood and welding shop, but it is not accessible from the street for working on cars, boats, engines, etc. So I have some limitations on what I know, and no good shop to do the work (and learning) myself, so I'm currently at the mercy of a mechanic.

Being in NorCal (Berkeley), finding a mechanic who knows about old v-drives wasn't a no brainer, but I found a guy who had some experience with the CSR, so he seemed like a good fit. I should have started by asking here on RDP, and ask the question now:

Does anyone know a good, trustworthy, friendly, helpful mechanic in the Bay / Sac / Delta area who would be interested in acquiring a lifelong customer?

I think the guy I'm working with is competent, maybe even excellent at what he does, but I also think he didn't look out for me on this project and, when things went sideways, he wasn't willing to work with me to make it right. Besides that, his communication and project management skills were unbelievably poor. (I won't mention any names, but read below and judge for yourself whether he took good care of me)

So I'll start with my cardinal errors:

1. I grossly underestimated my expected investment to get this boat back on the water
2. I thought a year was a reasonable timeline to complete this project
3. I bought an engine on craigslist out of a wrecked boat
4. I trusted the guy who sold it to me

Numbers 1. and 2. I chalk up to inexperience and optimism. I figured $4k could get me a used engine installed, and another $4k could cover the upholstery. I'd build the new seating in my shop, rebuild the bulkhead (between cabin and cockpit) as well, redo the dash, carpet, pleather in the cabin and cockpit, fun fur as well, do as much of the gel coat work as I could with help from a friend who does it for a living, and get all that done for another $2k or so in materials (with my labor being "free"). $12k and 7 months at the mechanic later, I've brought home a boat with a nicely re-rigged drivetrain, a new bilge pump, and a complete $#!@ pile of a motor. It runs - sort of. When cold, it idles nicely. As soon as it warms up, it starts running pretty rough (but holds its idle), and oil starts spattering out of the breather vents on the valve covers (mechanic says lots of 'blowby'). If you pull out the dipstick while it's running, it starts splattering oil out of there as well. Nice, miiiilky white oil. Oops.

Numbers 3. and 4.? I know better, I really do. I thought "how bad could it be?" if things went bad...well, I found out.

It all started last summer. The Queen mechanically looked like this:

Engine before cleaning out cockpit:


Rusty rocker arms:


How about that v-drive and u-joints?


The entire driveline was looking pretty awful:


Once we pulled the motor out:


So yes, bad shape. Engine not at all salvageable, except for the cam-driven water pump, which required a rebuild but was salvageable.



I initially called this mechanic a little over a year ago and told him I was interested in replacing the motor, this was a restore of the family boat, gave him the story. He offered to put together a quote for a new engine, and told me he'd recently done a 502 Ford for a a 70s Howard v-drive in similar condition. Sounded great! Until I mentioned my optimistic budget of $4k, at which point he said "Well, that's not realistic" (which it wasn't) - I asked him to then put a quote together anyway and we'd go from there, but I never heard back, and he didn't return a couple of my calls.

So I decided I'd just find a motor and drop it in, and watched craigslist for months. Looked at a few cheap boats, a couple of backyard wrecks, everything had water in the oil, or rust in the cylinders, and I wasn't having lots of hope, in the meantime just doing some gelcoat sanding and polishing, and starting to build the seating. I'll post about those things another time soon. Eventually, I found one that sounded good - an ad on Craigslist, complete with video of the motor running. Boat had structural damage, but engine was a "strong runner" according to the ad, and the video looked good. It was a 460, so I figured it would just use the same motor mounts and bellhousing. It was off of a jet boat, so I figured we'd have to do something or other to adapt it, but I assumed I'd just use the water pump from the old engine and we'd be in business. Engine looked good as far as I could tell from the ad, and for $1,500, the price was right:



I talked to the guy on the phone - he sounded like a good guy, especially compared to some of the clowns I'd spoken to over the last few months. We agreed to meet the next morning, and I drove out about 1.5 hours to his house. Engine looked as advertised, but was already out of the boat (the hull was wrecked) and he couldn't find the electric fuel pump that he'd taken off when pulling the motor, so we couldn't run it. The oil looked fresh, no rust under the valve covers. I met his wife and kids - he was a fairly well-to-do guy with a big house and a nice family. Said he restored a boat every winter with his son for fun and sold it the following summer - never made any money, just had a fun project with the boy. He had a few other engines and parts laying around in his garage.

He said he'd checked compression on all the cylinders and it was good, and offered to haul it out in his truck to the mechanic (who was also 90 mins away). He said he'd bring it by and the mechanic could have a look and if it didn't work out, he'd just take it home. Sounded great. I called the mechanic - it was now 6 months later than my previous conversation with him, so he didn't really remember me - and told him I had a boat with a blown motor and a used motor to drop into it, would he do the project, he said "Sure, bring it all by tomorrow." So we did.

We all got there around the same time and the mechanic looked at the boat, talked about the Howard he did a few years back, how the guy dropped it off in similar condition and said "make it brand new", and $37k later, the guy had a brand new 70s Howard. I told him we weren't doing that, and we all laughed. He looked at the 'new' engine, and we chatted about it, and he said it looked good (without actually looking into it at all) and told a bunch of stories about boats he'd fixed, and people who'd ripped him off, lien sales and lawsuits, and etc. etc. I was there for hours - but we never dug into the motor. I paid the guy for the engine and off he went, and I talked with the mechanic for another 45 mins, and he said "Yeah, he seemed like a solid guy. Let's get your old engine out first and go from there. This will of course be a T&M job." Indeed. What do you think, rough estimate? "I dunno, probably 20 hours or so. I'll have the old engine out by the end of next week and I'll give you a call."

Three weeks later, I call him. Talk to his receptionist - he's out on a job, will call when he comes back. Called a couple days later, same. Called the next day, and he answered - "Oh, yeah, sorry, been a little busy, I'll get that motor out and give you a call." Two more weeks. Call him again, three more times leaving messages over a couple of days before I catch him again. "Yep, just pulled the engine yesterday, it's all rusted to hell, I don't think we can salvage anything." Yep, what's next? "Well, we'll need a fuel pump and some exhaust logs for this new motor. Also needs a timing cover, the one on your old engine is frozen to the block."

That's where it really began. With this motor mount / timing cover:


Which had this quarter-sized hole corroded in the side:


At this point, since it had taken him almost two months to even get this far (I figured we'd be done by now, just drop in the new engine, right?), I asked him for a time/labor, parts, and date estimate to complete the project. He said "yeah, I'll get that together for you next week." No word. A few calls, no return. His shop emailed me with a link to a timing cover for sale on the internet - posted in 2008. I responded with a detailed request for an estimate to complete work. No response. I call a couple more times (he still has yet to even call me once, although he's had my boat for 2.5 months) and finally catch him - he says "look, man, we can't do the work until we have the parts. Where's the fuel pump and the exhaust logs?" Oh, it's my job to procure these parts, apparently - OK, I'll get them to you by the end of next week and bring them to your shop. Which I do. (In a previous post, I posted pictures of the logs, and some questions about 3" and 4" exhaust - I bought these from the same guy who sold me the engine - he also gave me the electric fuel pump, which was smaller than I expected.)

I bring the parts to him and we discuss the timing cover / motor mount. Turns out the one on my existing engine wasn't repairable - the mechanic couldn't even get it off the block. Even after we decided it was OK to destroy it, with torches, prybars, etc. he STILL couldn't get it off the block. CP Performance sold an aftermarket arrangement for about $650, but I just couldn't stand spending $650 on one stupid part for a $1,500 engine, so I started hunting around and told him I'd have him a part within 2 weeks. He also recommends removing the drivetrain, bead blasting and powdercoating everything, and getting it back in. How much will that cost? "Oh, about $200 for the powdercoating, plus our labor to pull it out and put it back in." OK, sounds like a good idea (and it was, as it was probably the best thing I got out of this whole ordeal, although I didn't realize it would be $1200 in labor - I would have pulled those parts myself had I known!) I tell him I really need an estimate before anything can continue, and he tells me there are too many unknowns to say. At this point he has my 'new' engine in pieces, the old engine out of my boat, and I don't really have a choice but to continue. He never gave me an estimate.

Turns out this timing cover / motor mount is impossible to find. (Again, I should have posted here about it) I found a guy on eBay with one, but it was for the FE series engines, not the 460. I emailed him, and he hooked me up with a couple of guys in Arizona - neither of them had the part. They directed me to Steve McElroy, who I'm sure you all know, and Steve helped me dig up some parts from his archives, with a new piece from the east coast, for $250. I saved some money, good for me! Not so much.

Weeks of back and forth between me, mechanic, Steve McElroy, custom parts being fabricated at the machine shop left and right, punch a hole here, make a drive pin there, the eccentric for the oil pump is off, need to custom make this piece now, etc. etc. etc. Mechanic calls me for the first time since he's had the boat - to let me know he needs money to keep working. We're $3k in, and everything is still in pieces - I need to give him $3k. I tell him I'll pay him once he gets my estimate to complete together, and he says "Probably about 20 more hours to wrap it up, I'll get you an estimate by end of day Monday - what's your credit card number?" I gave it to him, and told him it was on good faith pending his estimate. He still never gave me an estimate.

They finally get the new timing cover / water pump / motor mount assembly completed, and it looks like this:



Now it's time to put the engine together - he says the plug wires were wrong, and the weird automotive electronic ignition distributor isn't marine-grade. The fuel pump I got from the guy who sold me the engine was a joke - mechanic said it was off of a lawnmower or something. Remember that still nobody has looked inside the engine at this point. He did say during the timing cover crisis that there was milky residue on the timing chain, but that it would burn off when we ran the motor. So they dress the engine, and fire it up - it runs!

But it's vibrating like crazy. Mechanic says the flywheel isn't matched to the crank - should be externally balanced, but has internally balanced crank on it, so has to find an appropriate flywheel from a truck in a junkyard. He finds one surprisingly quick, same day. Takes it a week to arrive, then he tries to put it on - but it doesn't fit. It's somehow too large (I never quite got how it was too large) and needs to be radiused off to even be bolted on - also, the holes aren't lining up, so they need to be machined as well. Back to the machine shop.

Now the mechanic is starting to get busy - I brought the boat in October hoping to miss the heavy season, but now it's April and they've got a huge stack of boats coming in to get ready for the season. I stop hearing back from him, trying to reach him, find out the status, no response, a couple of weeks pass, finally get his helper on the phone - he's gone to Hawaii, left the shop with the helper, he's got a million things to do. I remind him they've had my boat now for 6 months, and to please prioritize it over the new work that's come in - he says it's up to the boss.

In early May, I had a trip planned to bring my family down to see my folks and other family in SoCal, do Disneyland, etc. I figured I'd also bring the boat down and drop it off at IMCO so they could pull the old tanks, and fab and install the new ones. I send the mechanic an email saying "I'm heading down to SoCal with my boat on the 9th, finished or not, to get the tanks done. Please confirm that it will be ready to roll by then." No response. After about a week, I get him on the phone and he says "OK, you can take it with no engine and we'll finish it when you get back up." I then talk to IMCO - they don't actually do installation, so bringing the boat doesn't actually make sense, so I call him Monday morning on his cell and leave a message saying "No longer taking the boat, so please proceed and complete the job - get everything rigged, installed, and running, rig up a temp gas tank so we can take it for a spin when I get back." No response. Call him 4 more times in the next 2 days, leaving voicemail on his cell each time, no response. Thursday morning 6am I get a text from him: "Hey, when are you coming to pick this boat up to take down south? It's ready to roll." ::swear I call him immediately and he answers and agrees to finish the project while I'm gone.

While I'm down south, he texts me pictures of the engine all assembled with tranny:




And a couple of days later, fully mounted and rigged with the powdercoated drivetrain:



I'm so excited! This is awesome. After all this, 7-1/2 months, and an unknown final bill, at least it's all done. I get back up there, and agree to pick it up Friday. He texts me Friday morning:

"Ok. This motor is no good. Needs rebuild or min head rebuild. Check your voice mail I left"

Followed quickly by:

"Rough draft of bill $9900"

:yikes

I head out to his shop, and we hook it up and fire it up. As I said before, it runs nicely for a minute or two when cold, but starts idling really rough as it warms up. Oil is milky white. He said he checked compression on the cylinders - two of them have no compression, two of them have like 50 psi, and the other 4 are more normal in the 160 range. It's a pile.

I didn't blame him, but said it was equally both of our faults. He should have checked the engine before he ever started working on it. I should have insisted he did so. He never offered to, and I never insisted. The seller seemed like a good guy, even has called me several times since letting me know about some parts he found on craigslist that I might be interested in, being friendly and cool - but after the compression checked out so badly, and he said the compression was good...either he lied, or the mechanic did, and despite my frustration with the mechanic, I don't think he's lying. I still haven't called the seller (it's been a week since I found out), and am trying to figure out if I have any legal recourse I can pursue before I call him.

So, I've brought the boat back home, $12k poorer, with a nice looking drivetrain, a new bilge pump, and a crap motor. He also lets me know now that the tranny needs seals and whatnot, another $500 - whenever I get the engine sorted out.




**** The Advice Section ****

So now, I have sort of what I thought I had before the boat ever went to the mechanic - a boat in need of tons of work (gelcoat, seating, floor, carpet, dash, bulkhead, tanks, etc.) that has a blown motor. I now know that the drivetrain needed the work, and it was my own inexperience to think I could just drop a new engine in on that corroded drivetrain and call it a day. But I still am back to square one with the engine.

I am committed to this project - I'm not going to give up, but have totally re-evaluated the cost and timeline for the project, and am prepared for a much longer, more expensive project than I initially envisioned. I'm OK with that - in a way, it's relieving, as I feel more comfortable doing it right, and it's still the boat I grew up in, so it means a lot. So now, it's about options, getting good advice on what to do, and that's where folks here at RDP come in (as well as other personal contact I'll be asking).

The mechanic offered me an interesting possibility - he worked on a boat about 3 years ago that belonged to an old racer named George Grizwald (his spelling, not sure if correct), a '77 Schiada. George brought in the boat in poor shape, but a freshly rebuilt 454 that had never been in the water. He put a $14k paint job on it, and was about to start re-doing the interior when he passed away. Somewhere in there, the mechanic backed a forklift into the Schiada on a trailer and wrecked the back of the hull (see photos). Insurance compensated the son amply, and he took his wrecked boat (with the fancy paint and rebuilt 454) home, where it sat ever since. Mechanic says "buy this boat, pull the 454, and sell the hull and trailer, someone will want an old Schiada." He knows nothing about who rebuilt it, but he feels very confident that it was done right, since George would have done it right, and he didn't skimp on the paint. The engine has a little surface rust (mostly on the harmonic balancer) and the carb is fairly corroded (mechanic recommends a new one), but has a Mercruiser ignition, gold Crane roller rockers (but a flat tappet cam), and slightly cupped pistons. Even 190 psi compression on all cylinders, and he stuck a camera inside and said the chambers and pistons look brand new. Rectangular port heads, and he expects it's generally a high-performance engine with a steel crank, although we won't know that unless I buy it and we take it apart. He's run it and it "purrs like a kitten".

Here are some pics of the Schiada:



So first, here are my options as I see them:

1. Rebuild this random craigslist 460 - who knows what kind of crank, pistons, etc. it has. Distributor is not marine, alternator smokes, carb is new-ish Edelbrock, but probably too small. Has all the custom work to make it a v-drive motor, and currently fits in the boat. Mechanic estimates $5-6k for rebuild, plus another $2-3k to take it out and apart, then dress and reinstall.
2. Purchase this Schiada, and install the 454. Mechanic estimates ~$4k to do the installation, including a new carb and the tranny job.
3. Find another used engine somewhere - from someone trusted on here perhaps - that is 460, rigged and ready for v-drive
4. Get a longblock from somewhere (recommendations welcome) and buy all the components from scratch, assemble and install

What do you think is my best bet? (Obviously a brand new Teague-built 600ci with a twin turbo is of course my best bet, but I need to balance practicality and budget with best practice and bang for the buck)


Some questions:

1. Should I stick with this mechanic? I've found him frustrating to work with due to his communication style and lack of project management, but I think he does quality work, based on some of the crazy boats (like the carbon-fiber hull Skater with the twin blown 600+ ci engines in it) that he works on and the general "neatness" of the work he did do on my boat (plumbing, dressing, etc.)
2. Are the prices he's quoting and charging me outrageous or sane? They're much higher than I expected, but again, my expectations are changing based on experience to date...
3. Can you recommend another mechanic in this area who would be take good care of me and do a great job? I'm hoping to stick to someone around here, so he can do warranty work in case of failure, and generally take care of the boat for my lifetime. I like to build a relationship with my mechanic, rather than bounce around.
4. He strongly suggests Chevy over Ford, due primarily to the easy/less-expensive availability of parts, particularly marine parts, for Chevy's. He also says Ford's fail more frequently in higher-performance applications. I know the Chevy / Ford feud rages on as strong as ever, and don't care much about the philosophical differences, but that sounds like practical advice for the long run - thoughts?
5. If I do swap over to Chevy, am I getting into some other world of incompatibility in terms of fitting in my engine cavity, connecting with the tranny, having to build a longer/shorter driveshaft, or...?
6. Are there any options I'm missing?

Thanks for reading, and for any advice you can give. Looking forward to moving on from this experience and getting the right setup in place, even if it'll be in a couple of years instead of end of this summer, and even if it'll cost me 3x what I initially expected. She'll be a beauty when she's done!

Cheers
Tim

 

[Crazyhippy]

First things first, I would expand your search outside just the bay area. The day or 3 donated to the driving gods can find you several better shops in socal, havasu, or phoenix. My goto bay area recommendation is Boat Masters. Really good guys, but not sure how the are with vintage v-drives. Call and talk with Drew. He will tell you straight up, and if he cant do it, may be able to tell you who can.

Chevy has alot more marine support, but will need alot of stuff from the schiada too. Off the top of my head:
Waterpump
Motor mounts
Exhaust manifolds (possibly pipes too)
Transmission
Transmission mount
Drive shaft

I do not trust this mechanic based on what has been done, the motor in the Schiada either needs a new carb (his suggestion) or it "purrs like a kitten." It can not be both...

 

[Crazyhippy]

No personal experience with JBP, but haven't heard any complaints. May be a decent shop to do the R&R as well.

http://www.performanceboats.com/showthread.php?t=216450

 

[queenmerry]

First things first, I would expand your search outside just the bay area. The day or 3 donated to the driving gods can find you several better shops in socal, havasu, or phoenix. My goto bay area recommendation is Boat Masters. Really good guys, but not sure how the are with vintage v-drives. Call and talk with Drew. He will tell you straight up, and if he cant do it, may be able to tell you who can.

Chevy has alot more marine support, but will need alot of stuff from the schiada too. Off the top of my head:
Waterpump
Motor mounts
Exhaust manifolds (possibly pipes too)
Transmission
Transmission mount
Drive shaft

I do not trust this mechanic based on what has been done, the motor in the Schiada either needs a new carb (his suggestion) or it "purrs like a kitten." It can not be both...

Thanks for that, crazyhippie. To his credit, he said it's just the secondaries that aren't working, but it idles nicely and is very responsive - that makes sense to me.

If we did pull this 454, we'd pull the whole shebang, motor mounts to carb, including manifolds, waterpump, etc. We took some measurements and it *looks* like it would fit the same in terms of fore/aft location and width. He said, in terms of joining with the tranny, that it was just a matter of using a different bellhousing? Or are you saying that there are velvet drives for Chevy's and velvet drives for Ford's?

Another benefit of using this engine is that it's already out of a v-drive, so it has the water pump issue already solved. After the nonsense we went through with the other one, I'm reluctant to use a takeout jet boat motor again...

 

[Quicksilver]

I don't think your mechanic knows what he is doing and he is overcharging you for what work he is doing. The prices he is quoting you sound way out of line. If I were in your shoes now I would look to see what is wrong with the 460 engine you have. I have a feeling you might just have a couple of bent pushrods due to stuck valves. Pull the valve covers off and look at the pushrods one by one. You will want to spin them one by one and you will have to rotate the crankshaft to check them all.

 

[SPECTRALEN]

You seem like someone who can research and come to learn what needs to be done.
You can probably rebuild that motor with machine work and new bearings and rings for maybe around $700 give or take.
You need confidence. All your questions can be answered here, from people with all the knowledge and no real reason to lie to you.
STOP throwing money at this guy and anyone else for that matter if it's something you can physically do.
Spectra owners will help you right here. Just think of how special that boat will be knowing you did most of the work on it.

 

[JRM1980]

You seem like someone who can research and come to learn what needs to be done.
You can probably rebuild that motor with machine work and new bearings and rings for maybe around $700 give or take.
You need confidence. All your questions can be answered here, from people with all the knowledge and no real reason to lie to you.
STOP throwing money at this guy and anyone else for that matter if it's something you can physically do.
Spectra owners will help you right here. Just think of how special that boat will be knowing you did most of the work on it.

I second that!! :thumbsup

 

[specrocz]

I second that!! :thumbsup

:thumbup:
I second it too!

 

[queenmerry]

You seem like someone who can research and come to learn what needs to be done.
You can probably rebuild that motor with machine work and new bearings and rings for maybe around $700 give or take.
You need confidence. All your questions can be answered here, from people with all the knowledge and no real reason to lie to you.
STOP throwing money at this guy and anyone else for that matter if it's something you can physically do.
Spectra owners will help you right here. Just think of how special that boat will be knowing you did most of the work on it.

i gotta say, I like that advice a lot, thanks for the vote(s) of confidence! I've always wanted to build my own engine - my preconception was that I could just drop something in to get the boat operational then build something sweet over the course of a couple of years. Now that that idea went sideways, I'll definitely consider taking the time to build / rebuild / etc. myself.

Two challenges for me: shop space and getting the engine in and out of the boat - as you all know, these things sit too high on the trailer for a typical cherry picker. What's a DIY way to get that thing out? I've read articles online about people building their own gantry, using a backhoe, asking a two truck driver to help - I'll poke around and see, I may have some options.

But once I get it out, I need to find a place to take it. Getting it to my shop from the driveway is about a 40' journey across mostly grass, but with a flagstone patio at the beginning and two small sets of steps (each about 2' elevation change), one at the beginning and one at the end. I can't conceive how to get a 900# engine across that terrain...?

So yes, open to ideas, any suggestions on the above or other possibilities, keep em coming! Thanks to everyone.

 

[nrbr]

Where are you located?

 

[SPECTRALEN]

If you found someone in the area like a boat yard or machine shop with an outside
chain fall that you could give them like 20 or 40 bucks to pull and then re-install with you doing all the wrenching. Hopefully you have a pick up truck, just lift it out, move the rig, set it in.
Pull the heads and the rest of the stuff off first so a couple of not so wimpy guys can ease it out of the truck, then try a dolly to get it to the shop.

 

[queenmerry]

Where are you located?

Berkeley

 

[queenmerry]

If you found someone in the area like a boat yard or machine shop with an outside
chain fall that you could give them like 20 or 40 bucks to pull and then re-install with you doing all the wrenching. Hopefully you have a pick up truck, just lift it out, move the rig, set it in.
Pull the heads and the rest of the stuff off first so a couple of not so wimpy guys can ease it out of the truck, then try a dolly to get it to the shop.

Thanks, Len, I'm thinking in that direction as well. Since my last post, I think I've found a shop with a gantry crane that can help me pull the engine and get it in the back of a pickup. I've also found an offer from a friend with a warehouse who said I could use it for a rebuild! Not ideal, as it's 10 miles away, so I couldn't just do some wrenching while my kids sleep in the morning, but a good option.

Regarding stripping and hauling across the grass, it's not a bad idea - a little googling tells me the short block is only about 400-450 pounds, which I could totally rig something to carry with a couple of buddies, so that may be a good option as well.

Still considering dropping in this other motor - the 454 from the Schiada. It's from a v-drive, so has all the water pump stuff addressed. It's fully dressed and complete, and fires right up. I think it's just a matter of redoing motor mounts and something with the bellhousing...yes (the attachment to the transmission isn't something I understand yet)? I took measurements and the finished 454 engine is roughly the same dimensions as the 460 (an inch or two longer, but there is over a foot to the transom, so we have space) so I would expect it to "drop right in".

I also have a lack of trust on the 460, given the way it runs, and the balancing of the crank doesn't match the block - it indicates to me that this engine was never a marine engine, probably a truck engine, that some wacko took apart and did their own rebuild on, slapped on an automotive electronic ignition and alternator, and dropped it in his jet boat. Not sure if this is the powerhouse I want in my boat! Rebuilding sounds fun, and full of unknowns - will it end up costing more and taking longer? Maybe. Is that more risk than dropping in a motor that's been given a thumbs up by a mechanic (albeit an expensive one)?

 

[RiverDave]

That Schiada he is telling you to buy isn't worth shit.. It's the original 21, with paint instead of gel, and a big ass hole in the side of it. The only thing that is worth anything on the boat is the namesake which is primarily based on the 21 that came after that boat.

RD

 

[Quicksilver]

As others have said it is rewarding to do the work yourself. I would recommend finding some books on the 460 Ford and get familiar with that engine. I have built three 460's and I like a manual written by Tom Monroe. There are also other websites where you can gather info as well. There is a guy by the name of Lakesonly on PB that knows 460's in and out. 460ford dot com is another good site for advice.

Some things I have learned so far about the 460 is that you need a good oversized oil pan with a windage tray and trap doors. Armando's Racing makes the best one as far as I know. With a marine engine you need more piston to cylinder wall clearance. Make sure your machine shop knows this engine is for a boat. The right factory heads can make a lot more power; D0VE heads are the most sought after. The D3VE heads are ok with some port work and if the thermactor bumps are ground down . There are some oil mods that should be done to improve drainage back to the pan and I have heard not to run a high volume oil pump.

Most people don't know that it is relatively easy to stroke a 460 to a larger displacement and it is actually easier to get more hp out of the Ford than the Chevy 454.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0906phr_big_block_ford_engine/

To make removing the engine easier you can strip your engine down to a short block while it is in the boat.

 

[Quicksilver]

That Schiada he is telling you to buy isn't worth shit.. It's the original 21, with paint instead of gel, and a big ass hole in the side of it. The only thing that is worth anything on the boat is the namesake which is primarily based on the 21 that came after that boat.

RD

Agreed. The 21RC is a legend in its own time.

One more thing about the engine. Ford produced different blocks and crankshafts over the years. The early design was built between 1968-1978 and used an internally balanced crankshaft. The later blocks from 1979-1997 had deeper skirt and therefore used an externally balanced crankshaft. You can use the later crankshaft in either block and the early crank only in the early block. The externally balanced crank has a weighted flywheel and a weight that goes on the front of the crank behind the dampner as well. The internall balanced crank has a sleeve in place of that weight. One of those things could be a source of your vibration. My advice is to look up the numbers on everything and verify those parts work together.

 

[queenmerry]

Agreed. The 21RC is a legend in its own time.

One more thing about the engine. Ford produced different blocks and crankshafts over the years. The early design was built between 1968-1978 and used an internally balanced crankshaft. The later blocks from 1979-1997 had deeper skirt and therefore used an externally balanced crankshaft. You can use the later crankshaft in either block and the early crank only in the early block. The externally balanced crank has a weighted flywheel and a weight that goes on the front of the crank behind the dampner as well. The internall balanced crank has a sleeve in place of that weight. One of those things could be a source of your vibration. My advice is to look up the numbers on everything and verify those parts work together.

Thanks for the great info, Quicksilver (and River Dave). I do have a book on rebuilding Ford 460s that I bought before I knew how bad the original engine was corroded - I've been cracking it again and looking through. I found it on another performance engine message board, a few people recommended it (don't have the author/title in front of me, I'm at the office).

Nice to hear some votes for the Ford side, and that article on popularhotrodding is excellent, inspiring. It would be great knowing that all the dumb but difficult details (flywheel, bellhousing, motor mounts, etc.) are solved with this engine, since it's currently mounted and rigged.

Regarding the vibration - they did fix it, by obtaining a flywheel (from a junkyard) with the counterweight on it. If I remember, he said "this engine block is the older kind, so should have the internally balanced crank in it, but I see that the flywheel we took off of it is externally balanced so it must have been changed out at some point". I don't know why we couldn't use the existing flywheel from the jet boat, and assume it was the difference between connecting it to the transmission instead of to a jet. Is there a benefit, at the end of the day, to internal vs. external balance, or to the older or newer crank (strength, weight, etc.)?

 

[Quicksilver]

Thanks for the great info, Quicksilver (and River Dave). I do have a book on rebuilding Ford 460s that I bought before I knew how bad the original engine was corroded - I've been cracking it again and looking through. I found it on another performance engine message board, a few people recommended it (don't have the author/title in front of me, I'm at the office).

Nice to hear some votes for the Ford side, and that article on popularhotrodding is excellent, inspiring. It would be great knowing that all the dumb but difficult details (flywheel, bellhousing, motor mounts, etc.) are solved with this engine, since it's currently mounted and rigged.

Regarding the vibration - they did fix it, by obtaining a flywheel (from a junkyard) with the counterweight on it. If I remember, he said "this engine block is the older kind, so should have the internally balanced crank in it, but I see that the flywheel we took off of it is externally balanced so it must have been changed out at some point". I don't know why we couldn't use the existing flywheel from the jet boat, and assume it was the difference between connecting it to the transmission instead of to a jet. Is there a benefit, at the end of the day, to internal vs. external balance, or to the older or newer crank (strength, weight, etc.)?

I don't think there is an advantage to either one. The later style externally balanced crank is smaller to clear the deeper skirted block. Either way, if you are rebuilding the engine the machine shop should balance the rotating assembly anyways.

Some more info regarding casting numbers:
http://www.castingnumbers.info/site/browse/m/Ford

 

[queenmerry]

Yes, the Tom Monroe book is the one I have. Thanks for the tip, Quicksilver

 

[welldigger00]

That Schiada he is telling you to buy isn't worth shit.. It's the original 21, with paint instead of gel, and a big ass hole in the side of it. The only thing that is worth anything on the boat is the namesake which is primarily based on the 21 that came after that boat.

RD

I took a look at this boat like 5 years ago, if it's the one I'm thinking about. He wanted like 12k-15k for it. It was in unbelievable bad shape. The hole in the side was just one of the problems. Serious rot in the stringers, wiring nightmare, etc. if he could get it for a grand, he'd get a good engine(I heard it run). Then have to sawzall the boat and haul it to the dump.

 

[queenmerry]

I took a look at this boat like 5 years ago, if it's the one I'm thinking about. He wanted like 12k-15k for it. It was in unbelievable bad shape. The hole in the side was just one of the problems. Serious rot in the stringers, wiring nightmare, etc. if he could get it for a grand, he'd get a good engine(I heard it run). Then have to sawzall the boat and haul it to the dump.

He's asking $2,700 for it now, and some of it was rewired (new gauges). Didn't pay attention to the stringers, since I only wanted the engine anyhow, and the boat did look pretty wrecked (and can't say I cared much for the hull style, personally). I assumed if I went that route, I'd get a good engine and some new gauges, scrap the hull (or try to sell it, but sounds like it's worth it's weight in garbage), and maybe sell the trailer for $700 or so and walk away with a freshly rebuilt, v-drive rigged 454 for $2k. Still considering it, but leaning toward rebuilding the Ford myself, and further as I hear more support and encouragement from everyone on here.

 

[Dave’s Spectra 32 Project]

Instresting read. Last entry was in 2014. Was this continued on another thread? I just recently bought a Spectra 32. I do my own work most of the time, but I can relate to your frustration. How did this project turn out?

Dave

 

[OC Mike]

Yes, this is a very interesting, cool story.
Is there an ending somewhere?