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21' Howard

HotRodGreg

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Hi everyone, I'm new to the site. Been snoopin around on here for a while just checking everything out.
Couple months back I picked up a 79, 21' howard V drive. Boat spent its life at lake arrowhead and was owned by family member of mine. I've had a few jet boats but this is my first v drive.Anyways got a couple of good trips in this summer before I let a friend borrow it and the neovane clogged up and smoked the motor. So...a little sooner than i expected it looks like I'm jumping in feet first into an over haul. I just wanted to introduce myself because I will have some questions for everyone as I go through the process.

Also the boat is not going to be a race boat, just a fun reliable cruiser but I do have a heavy foot so I want to do the precausionary stuff to make it safe and reliable.

I'm building a healthy 468 pump gas tunnel ram motor (for now), plan to put a 400 in it, change the interior and its configuration, also I would like to put the plates on a pedal and do something with the steering because it is a bitch to turn sometimes.

Starting off I pulled the motor and the velvet drive, I'm gonna use my old motor and a mock up trans to get all of my new mounts configured. As far at the trans mount goes, my velvet drive had ears cast right into the bellhousing and of course my th400 does not. WHat are most of you guys running, a mid plate and mount on the tailshaft? If so would a universal cut to size mid plate work or is some a specific one i should use.
Then onto the torque converter. I know I'm not going to be running one but I have heard of guys using converters that the internals are welded solid or is there a better route?
Should I just eliminate 1st gear from the trans?
What should I run for a shifter? being an offroad guy I had this vision of an art carr shifter mounted next to me, any better idea's?
Like i said it's not going to be a race boat but I want it to handle well, should i move the motor from its original placement while i'm doing all of this? what are the pros and cons to that? how much is too much?
Lastly for the trans cooler? how big should i go? bigger the better? with a fan? or ???


Sorry for the lengthy post, any info would really help.

Thanks,
Greg
 

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ka0tyk

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man id love to have me a cruiser like that... awesome lookin boat.

my dads cruiser had his plates on a electric ram with a switch on the dash. t400 locked out. first was very useful in no wake zones and docks. i couldnt imagine being stuck in 2nd gear all the time you'd be zoomin around.

how old are your steering cables? perhaps a set of new ones and a helm will ease things up?

small tranny fluid cooler was used with a direct drive (no tc), fed off a water pickup from the cav plate.

t400 shifter

http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant..._Code=457890&Category_Code=shiftersbillett400
 
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65Mandella

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Greg,
Great looking Howard!!! Would love to have a big FAST cruiser!!!
What are you going to do with the Velvet Drive??? If you sell it, please hit me up. I'm in the market.
Keep us aprised of your progress of the Howard... Any interior/floor shots, etc?
 

CampbellCarl

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Trans thoughts, have the shifter pattern reversed so that if you leave Park in it (some do, some don't) it would be a manual shift setup and the pattern would go P-R-N-1-2-3. You really want to eliminate the possibility of pulling the shifter toward 3rd and pass thru neutral into reverse.

Nice project, keep the updates coming!

CC
 

FrznJim

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Here's a couple pics of a 21 Howard that I did a couple of years ago. It had a turbo motor in it and ran in the mid 80s. We put a Turbo 400 in it. You can see the spline adapter for the trans (Art Carr), that is used in lieu of a torque converter. Also, the boat had the old electric cav plate actuator, I think you are wanting to go mechanical, which is a lot of work....it had the push pull steering.
howard5.jpg

howard8.jpg
 

ka0tyk

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my dads old boat... t400 config with tranny coolers. (currently for sale by daygo)

IMG_5461%20Tarva%20Plumb.JPG


IMG_5883%20Engine%20Complete.JPG
 

vdcruiser

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Nice cruiser, I also have a 21' Howard v-drive. Its a 1983 that I bought new and outfitted it myself. I've changed it quite a bit through the years,several different motors,bottom work,changed shaft angle,strut,upholstery,etc,etc. I also run a turbo 400. Many good ways to set it up. You don't need much of a trans cooler, since you don't use a torque converter. I now have a up/down peddle on the cav plate. If you have any specific questions fire away. I'll try to put a few pictures up if I can figure out how.:D
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HotRodGreg

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Thanks for all the info and the pictures guys. I have the interior and the motor out now so I'll get some pics of the inside. I'm going to call it a rack and pinion of lack of a better term, so my rack and pinion in a Nicson and it only has one cable. Should i upgrade to a double cable push pull type for more control?
More pictures soon. Thanks again
 

CampbellCarl

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Probably gonna be tough to find the old Morse push/pull cable set up. Teleflex bought Morse and then killed the Morse product line.

Consider doing the old cable style with rudder quadrant and pulley system. Pretty bullet proof and lots of parts/supplies available to you.

CC
 

DRIVE BYE

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Im gonna chime in here, ive owned a very nice '86 howard v-drive. i always wished i woulda set it up with a override peddle set up from bergeron. these hulls seem to like a constant input from the driver, Glenn what do you think???
 

alohajeff

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I don't have a Howard (Spectra Owner) but I've got a single cable push/pull mounted on the left side and I am not happy with it either. It turns LEFT ok but I have to fight it to turn right. Let go of the wheel and WATCH OUT. I will be watching this thread with interest to see what you end up doing. Steering updates are on my winter list of things to upgrade.

Mike @ REX has gone over V-drive steering setups quite a few times over the years on various forums. I was reading a few of his recommendations over at PBC. Here's one that jump started a few ideas in my brain while I was dozing at work today...

http://www.performanceboats.com/v-drives/78930-morse-dual-cable-steering-control.html#post1309189

And another... http://www.performanceboats.com/v-drives/35413-v-drive-cruiser-steering.html

Great looking Howard by the way!

Aloha
 
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vstdispatch

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Probably gonna be tough to find the old Morse push/pull cable set up. Teleflex bought Morse and then killed the Morse product line.

Consider doing the old cable style with rudder quadrant and pulley system. Pretty bullet proof and lots of parts/supplies available to you.

CC


i agree with carl i just got done doing the same set up to my boat.. it works great
 

stresscrack

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nice howard.

hey mandella, i have a velvet drive i pulled out of my howard years ago that work perfect i have been trying to give it to a good home. sell it on the cheap or trade it for whatever if you need it.
 

HotRodGreg

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Yeah I've been researching different steering and pedal set ups. Gotta figure out what is in the budget for this go around. I know how these projects can drain the bank account real quick. May have to wait until next years off season for some of the stuff but we'll see.
I had seen in another forum about Howards a guy was building a blast plate for the rudder shaft. Is this something I should do also?
 

AuggieBenDoggie

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I use first gear a lot when I'm inside the no wake zone. It's really nice when docking the boat. Was your Howard always blue/white? Growing up at the Lake I remember one the was yellow with wood trim that got redone the same gel as yours.
 

vdcruiser

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Some of the pictures posted here ,including mine, show you what you need for mounts when using the turbo 400. I cut mine out of 3/8" thk aluminum plate, with a band saw. The cav plate should be easy to connect to a pedal assy if the control rod comes through the transom just outside the stringer. I also use a "welded up" torque converter to drive the trans pump. For a shifter you can use a lever sorta like you already have, got mine from Rex Marine. For steering I use a single cable Ride Guide,(no longer available), that was with the boat when I got it. It has served me well. I would like to upgrade to the cable/pulley system but the pulley locations and cable routing, under the deck, looks like it would be a problem in a cruiser with an interior and floor boards. So far as the engine location, I have mine close to the transom and it performs just fine and gives you more interior room.
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HotRodGreg

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ha ha yes, you know the boat. Was yellow and wood grain untill the mid 90's when it got the new blue and white paint job.
Vd cruiser, I want to do my interior just like yours. do you have an engine cover? Who did yours?
 

vdcruiser

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I don't have a engine cover, I started building one but never finished. I built the seat frames and had them covered here in Va. The boat originally had forward facing buckets with side facing lounges made together and a small cover around the engine with rear jump seats on each side of the engine. They begin to deteriate about 10 or 12 years ago so I redid them. The floor boards are mostly original, I replaced the two 8' long boards that cover the gas tanks in the bilge.
 

HotRodGreg

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Well Its been a while but I didn't forget about you guys or my boat. Just get caught up with life sometimes and I don't get the time to come on here and show you guys the progress i've made. So my project changed slightly. I kept it on a budget and have plans for more modifications after this summer. I built a 468 gen V block 10.1 with 049 heads and a hydraulic roller cam. C&j engineering made my old 750 look and perform better than new. I have a single plan Team G manifold on it and MSD ignition.I never got around to putting the th400 in it so I'm still running the velvet drive. Put the motor back in in last weekend and ran it this week at elsinore.
Boat ran great but I deffinetly need a more aggressive prop. The prop I have now is a 13LH14. I talk to Ron at Hill and he said a 12LH18 would probably be better. I want to have more top end and I want it to cruise in the 50 MPH range at a reasonable rpm. I checked my V drive and my driveline spins 2 to 1 with my prop shaft. Should i change that gearing also or wait until I do the transmission?
I'm still gonna be running the old interior configurations for atleast this summer but whatever it Runs again!!!!!! Thats what matters.
I'm looking for some parts if any of you guys out there have props or Lightning headers

Well Let me know what you think
 

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HotRodGreg

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some more pics
 

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vdcruiser

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You have the same interior set up that mine came with. Drive shaft turning two times and prop shaft turning one time is underdriven quite a bit. In my opinion you should have 12 to 15 percent overdrive with your motor and maybe a 11 3/4 X 16 prop. Larger dia. props make these boat handle a little crazy at speed. I have used as small as 11 1/4 X 16 with success. I guess Ron is trying to get what you want with your current gearing. I only cruise at about 25/30 mph and I have 48 percent gears in my V-drive. Too much going on at 50 mph for a long cruise.:D Glad you got it going, let us know how it works out.
 

HotRodGreg

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Sorry for my ignorance with the gear ratio stuff on the v drive. So since I am at a 2 to 1 right now i am 50% under driven correct? and you are saying to go to an over driven set up that seems like a huge change to me wouldn't it be.
 

vdcruiser

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Yes you are 50% underdriven if your drive shaft turns 2 times and your prop shaft turns once. Most all of these boats have some overdrive. How many rpm's did the engine turn? Do you have any idea how fast it went? Do you know how much hp your engine has? I think my first Howard had 4 % over and the engine was about 500 hp. If you are running 65/75 mph the prop size is not too critical, but if you're faster than that the boat may chine walk or move around some at wot with a large dia prop. The large props produce too much lift.
 
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HotRodGreg

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At 6k the boat was barley doing 60mph. I estimate the up at 500. What do u recommend me doing first? V drive gears or prop ? Is probably not a good idea to do too many changes at the same time correct? I tried to call Casale and pick their brain about gearing recommendations but I got not answer over the a couple of times.
 

djunkie

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Give Jim Wilkes a call at Wilkes Marine. I'm betting he'll know exactly what gear and prop you need given your hp.


Sent from my iPhone paid for with Union money. :D
 

vdcruiser

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If you truly have 50% underdrive it will be hard to get a prop that will work right for you at speeds in the 70's to 80's. It will have to be so big that it won't handle or perform correctly. If you a planning to keep the HP around 500 I would try about 9 to 12 % over.
 

CampbellCarl

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I promise that I'm not bein' a smart ass here..........please go back and mark the shafts and do it again. There's no way on Gods Green Earth that you have counted the shaft rotations correctly.

Don't just spin once, spin the driveshaft 10 times and have somebody else count the prop shaft rotations.

Please.

CC
 

HotRodGreg

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Well. Carl as much as I feel like a dumb ass I have to admit that you are absolutely correct. I counted right but I said it opposite. I have a 2 to 1 v drive ratio. So I am 50 percent over driven no under driven. That's probably too much concidering my hp and only having the velvet drive trans?
 

vdcruiser

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Something still fishy here, with 50% overdrive and 6000 rpms you should be going well over 60 mph. I might have missed it, but what v-drive do you have, C-500, split case or what. Are you running a 3 blade or 2 blade prop and what material is it made of ?
 

CampbellCarl

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Well. Carl as much as I feel like a dumb ass I have to admit that you are absolutely correct. I counted right but I said it opposite. I have a 2 to 1 v drive ratio. So I am 50 percent over driven no under driven. That's probably too much concidering my hp and only having the velvet drive trans?



What's this history of this boat? Did it have some monster motor in it in the past? It would take 1100-1200 hp to spin 50% overdriven gears in a 21 cruiser.

You're still not counting right, I promise.

CC
 

HotRodGreg

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Ok, so it's official I am a complete dumb ass. Instad of using the split collar as a marking I actually marked the drive shaft and the prop shaft. It is just shy of 1 to 1. Meaning it is under driven by approx 10 to 15 percent. It is a Casale c500 v drive. Can the gears be flip flopped to make it the same amount over driven? Or do I need to buy different gears? The story on this boat was its. Ever had anything but a bone stock 454 until I got it. It spent its whole life at lake arrowhead and if it ever went over 40 mph furring the first 33 years of its life I would be suprised. Also the current prop is brass. Once again thanks for the help guys I really feel like an idiot about my counting rotations. I'm better than that ha ha
 

vdcruiser

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Ok, lets start over. C-500 gears were made at 1.115 over or under so maybe thats what you have,and thats not to bad. If you plan to step up the power and speed I would get a steel or stainless steel prop. You could try a 12 X 15 or 16 and go from there. If you can't turn it enough rpm you can have it cut down some. If it turns too many rpm you can have the gears swapped to overdrive.
 

Crazyhippy

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If that is the biggest mistake you make with this boat, you are better off than any one here. ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 

HotRodGreg

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well I'm gonna start off with a new prop and if my rpms are still to high and I think the motor can pull it I will flop the gears in the drive. I guess if she's a pig out of the hole it will give me motivation to put the trans in it. What do you guys think is the most RPM I should run my motor at for any length of time? Its a full roller, oiling system is pretty much stock except for a hi volume oil pump?
 

vdcruiser

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Don't know if I can be of much help on the cruise rpm or not. A lot of guys don't mind crusing at 4000 rpm or so, I baby mine even though its a blower motor, and cruise at 1800/2000 most of the time,(25/28 mph). Max rpm on mine is 6300, with 48% gears. High speed cruising doesn't fit to well where I boat, always have to back off for boat wakes, etc. If you do want to cruise at 4000 or more you probably should have an oil cooler.
 

CampbellCarl

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:thumbsup :thumbsup

Now we're getting somewhere! If its a C-500, it could also have 4% gears. My Howard 24' has a 4% underdriven v-drive.......I'd guess that you have the same.

Now you have a base line to start playing with props and discussing the issue with Wilkes or anybody else.

The max RPM question is a tough one. I don't like running much over 5K except for hole shot and an occasional speed burst but I don't hold that # for more than 20-30 seconds.....just me.

CC
 

alohajeff

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Where are you located? I have a prop or two you might want to try.

Jeff
 

CampbellCarl

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Jeff i'm in Whittier



Well, no shit......so am I!

Approx Slauson and Santa Fe Springs Rd..........where you?

Oh, and the question about flipping the gears, I think you can. Best bet is to call Casale Engineering or go by and talk to them.....on Telegraph Rd a lttle west of Carmenita.

CC
 

HotRodGreg

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Ya small world, I own Desolate Motorsports that is actually behind Lascaris on Lambert and I live about a half a mile from there. Stop by sometime
 

CampbellCarl

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Ya small world, I own Desolate Motorsports that is actually behind Lascaris on Lambert and I live about a half a mile from there. Stop by sometime



Didn't know that there was anything behind Lascari's........I'll stop in!
 

mockridge

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i was reading these post and was curious also about flipping the gears...i have 22's in the c500 and i pulled my turbos off and i cant get any rpm..im on a tight budget for my wedding so i know i can afford new gears..went and talked to andy at casale and he said they run a grand just for the gears...wondering what would happen or if i can find gears to trade for mine...
 

steveo143

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I have one with 10% gears I'll trade you.

Steve Peterson 714 579-7857
 

HotRodGreg

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so.... this may sound kind of dumb, but.... I've taken my boat out a couple times now and everything is running great. This last weekend I took it out to Long Beach and was running around a bit and I noticed a rediculious amount of steam coming from the exhaust. Of course at first was was thinking head gasket because I had noticed it more out of one side that the other but then it was coming out of both exhausts pretty equally. Then I started wondering if maybe it was just water temp since I was in the ocean ? Any other thoughts?
 

CampbellCarl

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I've noticed lots of steam from boats running in the ocean.......cooler water, higher humidity........just do the normal tests, check for water in oil, maybe a compression test. Run it on the hose at home. I'll try to get by your shop later this week.

CC
 

vdcruiser

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How's that thing running now. Have you made any changes to the gears or prop? What rpm is it turning now?
 
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