WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

A Christian Nation?

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
This comes up from time to time in here. I say yes, our founders were in fact men of God and were adamant that for America to survive it must also be moral and virtuous.

Who said this?

"Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of duties of men and citizens...let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

@RodnJen
@squeezer

Hmmm?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Or this...

"I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom, if she will. It depends on her virtue."

Or this...

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."
 

SNiC Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
8,710
Reaction score
26,352
upload_2019-11-16_19-16-50.png


upload_2019-11-16_19-17-16.png


upload_2019-11-16_19-18-24.png
 

nowski

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
6,954
Reaction score
9,258
You reap what you sow. Looks like were seeing the results of kicking God to the curb in today's society and nation...
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
This comes up from time to time in here. I say yes, our founders were in fact men of God and were adamant that for America to survive it must also be moral and virtuous.

Who said this?

"Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of duties of men and citizens...let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

@RodnJen
@squeezer

Hmmm?

George Washington, in his farewell address.

Or this...

"I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom, if she will. It depends on her virtue."

Or this...

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."

First quote; Samuel Adams wrote to Richard Henry Lee.

Second quote; John Adams.


Benjamin Franklin wrote;

"I think with you, that nothing is more important for the public weal, than to form and train up youth in wisdom and virtue. Wise and good men are, in my opinion are, in my opinion , the strength of the state; mores than riches or arms.

I think also that general virtue is more probably to be expected and obtained from the education of youth, than from exhortations of adult persons; bad habits and vices of the mind being, like diseases of the body, are more easily prevented (in youth) than cured (in adults). I think, moreover that talents for the education of youth are the gift of God; and that the on whom they are bestowed, whenever a way is opened for them to use, is as strongly called as if he heard a voice from heaven."

As far as them being "deist", the repeated mention of "God" and "Heaven" tells me otherwise. It also seems to me that the wisdom of the founders has been forgotten. Our youth's are being raised in a Godless, Agnostic almost non-spiritual society. Why?

The founders made it clear, to them, the Constitution we hold so dear cannot survive without it and virtue. maybe that is the answer?
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Or this...

"I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom, if she will. It depends on her virtue."

Or this...

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."


What makes you believe that when the founding fathers spoke of religion, or god, they were referring to your Christian god or your Christian religion at the exclusion of other religions and other gods?

The first amendment was fairly clear. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......”
 

RVR SWPR

Almost Off the Grid
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
12,993
Hopefully this Thread gains Traction and continues for some time thru the up coming Holiday.A real opportunity to Appreciate,Remember,and Learn.The resident “drive by Atheist”will not have much if anything to contribute.
Thanks for the Thread
 

Grandpa mac

Now politics is kinda boring ;)
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
5,249
Reaction score
978
Pretty sure several of them were deists?
Washington, Jefferson, John Adams, Madison, Thomas Paine were all deists. Thought some divine origin to the Universe but that God was pretty hands off since. Not really the Christian philosophy. Despite affiliations with churches of the day, they were pretty secular guys. Jefferson famously rewrote the Bible without any reference to miraculous events, just the moral code of Christ. Wonder if any of them would have still believed in the concept of God knowing what Einstein and Darwin and others revealed about the Universe and life.
 

Grandpa mac

Now politics is kinda boring ;)
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
5,249
Reaction score
978
Hopefully this Thread gains Traction and continues for some time thru the up coming Holiday.A real opportunity to Appreciate,Remember,and Learn.The resident “drive by Atheist”will not have much if anything to contribute.
Thanks for the Thread
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
What makes you believe that when the founding fathers spoke of religion, or god, they were referring to your Christian god or your Christian religion at the exclusion of other religions and other gods?

The first amendment was fairly clear. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......”

Yea, They were likely referring to Islam or Buddhism. Congress making laws vs. what my post states are two completely different topics. You've conflated the two.

You consider yourself a strict constructionist, I believe. How can you reconcile your post vs John Adams statement:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people"
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Hopefully this Thread gains Traction and continues for some time thru the up coming Holiday.A real opportunity to Appreciate,Remember,and Learn.The resident “drive by Atheist”will not have much if anything to contribute.
Thanks for the Thread

The left is Godless, they need to wash the culture of religion. They will make wild claims of what the founders "meant." I am re-reading a book which is a compilation of their notes, and federalist papers. You cannot argue with the words they themselves penned.
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Yea, They were likely referring to Islam or Buddhism. Congress making laws vs. what my post states are two completely different topics. You've conflated the two.

You consider yourself a strict constructionist, I believe. How can you reconcile your post vs John Adams statement:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people"


There are moral and religious people of all faiths, not just Christians. Adams statement above is consistent with 1st amendment. He is not extolling Christianity or any one religion over another; but morality and religiousness which can be found in people of all faiths and believing in all types of Gods.

But more to the point. Are you trying to point out that according to Adam’s, the Constitution does not apply to Trump and therefore he can not be impeached? :)
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
There are moral and religious people of all faiths, not just Christians. Adams statement above is consistent with 1st amendment. He is not extolling Christianity or any one religion over another; but morality and religiousness which can be found in people of all faiths and believing in all types of Gods.

But more to the point. Are you trying to point out that according to Adam’s, the Constitution does not apply to Trump and therefore he can not be impeached? :)

Can we please stay on point? Did or did not John Adams state that the US Constitution was meant for moral and religious people? And what exactly did he mean? You being a constructionist must fully understand he was reefing to this as being a Christian Nation.
 

mjc

Retired Neighbor
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
11,769
Reaction score
8,772
We started out as a predominantly christian nation with tolerance for all religions, then the atheist got us to deny any mention of god. The 1st says no establishment of a religion not no mention at all by government.
 

wallnutz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
7,236
Reaction score
15,379
There are moral and religious people of all faiths, not just Christians. Adams statement above is consistent with 1st amendment. He is not extolling Christianity or any one religion over another; but morality and religiousness which can be found in people of all faiths and believing in all types of Gods.

But more to the point. Are you trying to point out that according to Adam’s, the Constitution does not apply to Trump and therefore he can not be impeached? :)
This reminds me “there were very fine people on both sides”
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Can we please stay on point? Did or did not John Adams state that the US Constitution was meant for moral and religious people? And what exactly did he mean? You being a constructionist must fully understand he was reefing to this as being a Christian Nation.

They were all know to be reefing back then but with respect to Adams or Jefferson believing we were to be a “Christian Nation” I disagree and provide the following for factual support and context of Adam’s words

A quote from John Adams:

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”


And if that does not end it......

And from Jefferson in a letter to John Adams:

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....“

Further, Jefferson promoted tolerance above all and has stated that his statute for religious freedom in Virginia was “meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”

So yes, the founding fathers spoke of morality and religion within the scope of all religions and all gods of “every denomination”.
 
Last edited:

RVR SWPR

Almost Off the Grid
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
12,993
Never dissapoints,automatic on Que. :) No matter the issue or subject you empty your trash on a thread.What makes you think anyone cares your opinion of “IN GOD WE TRUST” ??? I will stop now,want to enjoy this thread,been a great read this morning.
2635C892-ADDA-4F79-A341-58A1E7090809.jpeg
 
Last edited:

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Never dissapoints,automatic on Que. :) No matter the issue or subject you empty your trash on a thread.What makes you think anyone cares your opinion of “IN GOD WE TRUST” ??? I will stop now,want to enjoy this thread,been a great read this morning.

In God we Trust was not the US official motto until 1956. Prior to 1956 it was what the founding fathers picked out, E Pluribus Unum (from many, one) which was on the Great Seal of the Untied States and was adopted in 1782.

The founding fathers did not want a theist motto from being established, and worked hard to prevent one.
 

RVR SWPR

Almost Off the Grid
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
12,993
LoL,was not referring to you 530.Not necessary to Quote our resident “ATHEIST”.He barks on Q.

EA74FB64-5BE7-40F7-9153-A474236B1217.jpeg

:)
 

squeezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
5,900
Reaction score
2,796
This comes up from time to time in here. I say yes, our founders were in fact men of God and were adamant that for America to survive it must also be moral and virtuous.

Who said this?

"Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of duties of men and citizens...let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

@RodnJen
@squeezer

Hmmm?

I think 530 just about covered it...

John Adams:


“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

Jefferson:


“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....“



And my fave:

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


I categorical reject the assertion that it takes religion to make a person moral. It has been my experience in life that morality and religion are independent of each other. Not exclusive sets per say, but unrelated in application.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
I think 530 just about covered it...

John Adams:


“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

Jefferson:


“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....“



And my fave:

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.


I categorical reject the assertion that it takes religion to make a person moral. It has been my experience in life that morality and religion are independent of each other. Not exclusive sets per say, but unrelated in application.

Squeezer,

I am NOT a religious person. I haven't been inside a church since my marriage. as to your last sentence, I agree. I am a very moral person, yet not religious in the least.

My point is, I put up quotes showing that the founders were men of God, you and 530 put up quotes showing the opposite. So, we are right back where we started.
 

RVR SWPR

Almost Off the Grid
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
12,993
530
I doubt the Founding Fathers if possible were referencing the fucked Up individual who constantly braggs of his Atheism on a premier boating site thinking he is annoying Christians (as your running mate proclaims at least once every week)When in fact Defining only himself.I doubt your friend could convince,convert anyone about anything no matter the issue or subject.
 

SNiC Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
8,710
Reaction score
26,352
What makes you believe that when the founding fathers spoke of religion, or god, they were referring to your Christian god or your Christian religion at the exclusion of other religions and other gods?

There were numerous other quotes from our founding fathers and I believe their positions on God, Christianity, and their beliefs were very clear...

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

George Washington

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.


Thomas Jeffferson

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hncock

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Ben Franklin

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

John Quincy Adams

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth

William Penn

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect.
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.


god devil.jpg
 
Last edited:

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Squeezer,

I am NOT a religious person. I haven't been inside a church since my marriage. as to your last sentence, I agree. I am a very moral person, yet not religious in the least.

My point is, I put up quotes showing that the founders were men of God, you and 530 put up quotes showing the opposite. So, we are right back where we started.


You put up quotes that the founders believed in religion and morals.

Not where you started which is they believed we are solely a Christian nation.

Some founders were Christians, but that does not support the view that they meant to jam their religion down the throats of Americans. The facts, including the 1st amendment, show quite the opposite.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBS

SNiC Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
8,710
Reaction score
26,352
Some founders were Christians,
There are 204 unique individuals in this group of "Founding Fathers." These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

upload_2019-11-17_18-50-33.png


...but that does not support the view that they meant to jam their religion down the throats of Americans.

Whose view do you speak of?
 
Last edited:

squeezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
5,900
Reaction score
2,796
Squeezer,

I am NOT a religious person. I haven't been inside a church since my marriage. as to your last sentence, I agree. I am a very moral person, yet not religious in the least.

My point is, I put up quotes showing that the founders were men of God, you and 530 put up quotes showing the opposite. So, we are right back where we started.


I don't believe the quotes 530 put up (And I just copied them) show that the founders were "The opposite" of "Men of god" it simply shows that they firmly believed the laws of our country should not be based on any religion. Jeffersons skepticism of a virgin birth is well founded, maybe "Faith" was a gift he did not receive...
 

SNiC Jet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
8,710
Reaction score
26,352
I don't believe the quotes 530 put up (And I just copied them) show that the founders were "The opposite" of "Men of god" it simply shows that they firmly believed the laws of our country should not be based on any religion. Jeffersons skepticism of a virgin birth is well founded, maybe "Faith" was a gift he did not receive...

FWIW: Thomas Jeffferson
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
I don't believe the quotes 530 put up (And I just copied them) show that the founders were "The opposite" of "Men of god" it simply shows that they firmly believed the laws of our country should not be based on any religion. Jeffersons skepticism of a virgin birth is well founded, maybe "Faith" was a gift he did not receive...

530 has historically denied God's importance to the founders of this country. Which I find odd since he holds the constitution in such high regard. I can type out quote after quote after quote, which will only lead to more of his quotes. Myself NOT being a religious person, yet I see the moral imperative of religion in our countries continued success.

For people to almost instinctually defend Islam and decry Christianity in our Nations beginnings, make it nearly impossible to discuss the founders meanings of these letters to one another.

And you seem to think I try to shove religion down your child's throat. Yet society has made it a sin NOT to accept LBGTQ and all 51 genders. If you don't you're some kind of a pariah.
 
Last edited:

squeezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
5,900
Reaction score
2,796
530 has historically denied God's importance to the founders of this country. Which I find odd since he holds the constitution in such high regard. I can type out quote after quote after quote, which will only lead to more of his quotes. Myself NOT being a religious person, yet I see the moral imperative of religion in our countries continued success.

For people to almost instinctually defend Islam and decry Christianity in our Nations beginnings, make it nearly impossible to discuss the founders meanings of these letters to one another.

And you seem to think I try to shove religion down your child's throat. Yet society has made it a sin NOT to accept LBGTQ and all 51 genders. If you don't you're some kind of a pariah.

I dont believe you do anything of the sort... But there are those that would like to try and that is the very premise of the 1A...


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
I don't believe the quotes 530 put up (And I just copied them) show that the founders were "The opposite" of "Men of god" it simply shows that they firmly believed the laws of our country should not be based on any religion. Jeffersons skepticism of a virgin birth is well founded, maybe "Faith" was a gift he did not receive...

Placeholder for future comment to this. :D
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
I dont believe you do anything of the sort... But there are those that would like to try and that is the very premise of the 1A...


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Again, we aren't talking laws. We are talking that the founders were men of God and believed this to be a Christian Nation. I will however agree, that they weren't going to legislate it and "wave it around like a penis" or whatever it is you said. There can be both.

Benjamin Franklin wrote;

Here is my creed: I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion.

Are these the words of a deist or a Christian?
 
Last edited:

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
530 has historically denied God's importance to the founders of this country. Which I find odd since he holds the constitution in such high regard. I can type out quote after quote after quote, which will only lead to more of his quotes. Myself NOT being a religious person, yet I see the moral imperative of religion in our countries continued success.

For people to almost instinctually defend Islam and decry Christianity in our Nations beginnings, make it nearly impossible to discuss the founders meanings of these letters to one another.

And you seem to think I try to shove religion down your child's throat. Yet society has made it a sin NOT to accept LBGTQ and all 51 genders. If you don't you're some kind of a pariah.


Show me where in the Constitution it states we are a “Christian nation”. It does not. I’m pretty sure if the Founding Fathers believed that, they would have put it in there.

In fact it is quite the opposite, as they put in the 1st amendment.

I am not decrying Christianity or any other religions. Nor am I stating the each persons religion is not equally important in the decisions that they make including the Founding Fathers.

I am just making the observation that the founding fathers believed each person should be free to worship whatever religion or god they so chose. And that a national religion, would prevent men of free will from being able to do so.

With respect to morality, no religion makes man moral or immoral. Only his self chosen actions.

Morality is not defined by any specific religion. For if it was, it would mean whatever religion one chooses as moral, the other religion by definition must be immoral. It must be heresy to choose the other religion. The Founding Fathers understood this was a horrible premise and as such made it clear that each man should have the self determination to choose for themselves.

All religions have horrible immoral moments in their history, and the Founding Fathers as wise learned men who studied history understood this. Many had endured governments who held you must support their religion or suffer the consequences. And as a result, they came up with the perfect document that kept any specific religion out of government and reinforced such belief with the 1st amendment. They rightly concluded that “Governments are instituted among men” not by faith, gods or any specific religion.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Samuel Adams wrote; "The religion of America is the religion of all mankind."
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Again, we aren't talking laws. We are talking that the founders were men of God and believed this to be a Christian Nation. I will however agree, that they weren't going to legislate it and "wave it around like a penis" or whatever it is you said. There can be both.


Many of the founders, who were Christians, understood that having a nation of any specific religion precluded other religions.

Why can’t they be men of god and Christians, yet understand that we should not be specifically a Christian nation?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Show me where in the Constitution it states we are a “Christian nation”. It does not. I’m pretty sure if the Founding Fathers believed that, they would have put it in there.

In fact it is quite the opposite, as they put in the 1st amendment.

I am not decrying Christianity or any other religions. Nor am I stating the each persons religion is not equally important in the decisions that they make including the Founding Fathers.

I am just making the observation that the founding fathers believed each person should be free to worship whatever religion or god they so chose. And that a national religion, would prevent men of free will from being able to do so.

With respect to morality, no religion makes man moral or immoral. Only his self chosen actions.

Morality is not defined by any specific religion. For if it was, it would mean whatever religion one chooses as moral, the other religion by definition must be immoral. It must be heresy to choose the other religion. The Founding Fathers understood this was a horrible premise and as such made it clear that each man should have the self determination to choose for themselves.

All religions have horrible immoral moments in their history, and the Founding Fathers as wise learned men who studied history understood this. Many had endured governments who held you must support their religion or suffer the consequences. And as a result, they came up with the perfect document that kept any specific religion out of government and reinforced such belief with the 1st amendment. They rightly concluded that “Governments are instituted among men” not by faith, gods or any specific religion.

Show me in the Constitution where its says women can kill their unborn children.

We are just in disagreement. The way I read it, they see America as a Christian Nation, yet, will not make no laws regarding such.
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Samuel Adams wrote; "The religion of America is the religion of all mankind."


America’s religion was “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Many of the founders, who were Christians, understood that having a nation of any specific religion precluded other religions.

Why can’t they be men of god and Christians, yet understand that we should not be specifically a Christian nation?

Why can't they state that America is a Christian Nation but not legislate such?
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Show me in the Constitution where its says women can kill their unborn children.

We are just in disagreement. The way I read it, they see America as a Christian Nation, yet, will not make no laws regarding such.




Well now we are really in disagreement.

All powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people. That is what Jefferson clearly stated.


Your big federal government beliefs are showing.........
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Why can't they state that America is a Christian Nation but not legislate such?


They could have but they did not in the Constitution. And if it is not in the Constitution, it is simply a personal opinion that all are equally entitled to.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Interestingly, the "no state sponsored religion" clause was originally intended because there were 7 of the original states that did in fact have state sponsored religion.

New Hampshire, New Jersey and South Carolina were Protestant Faith
Connecticut and Massachusetts were Congregational Churches
Deleware and Maryland were Christian Faith.

So for people to juxtapose this against the current belief it was to include all earthy religions isn't completely accurate.
 

530RL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
21,182
Reaction score
20,152
Interestingly, the "no state sponsored religion" clause was originally intended because there were 7 of the original states that did in fact have state sponsored religion.

New Hampshire, New Jersey and South Carolina were Protestant Faith
Connecticut and Massachusetts were Congregational Churches
Deleware and Maryland were Christian Faith.

So for people to juxtapose this against the current belief it was to include all earthy religions isn't completely accurate.


Some people, coming from governments of religious oppression, have the ability to think forward such as Jefferson’s quote of all religions.

Maybe give the founding fathers some credit?
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
They could have but they did not in the Constitution. And if it is not in the Constitution, it is simply a personal opinion that all are equally entitled to.

They did not put many thing in the Constitution. They relied on a "moral electorate" to decide many unwritten things and decide how America shall be governed and by whom.

I find it interesting that so many progressives (not directed at you 530) can find the right to abort a fetus, which isn't in the Constitution, yet can't seem to find the right to keep and bear arms, which clearly is in the Constitution.
 

Skinny Tire AH

This ain't all folks! Skater368
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
23,695
Some people, coming from governments of religious oppression, have the ability to think forward such as Jefferson’s quote of all religions.

Maybe give the founding fathers some credit?

We are pretty close on agreeing on this. It really renders down to what Jefferson meant by "all religions." I doubt they were inclusive of Islam or Buddhism, in complete honesty, do you?
 
Top