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Army Lt. traffic stop

monkeyswrench

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You are assuming that everyone can hear. That everyone speaks English. That the driver is not frightened. And on and on....

It should not be the standard for the above reasons.
If the guy is in uniform, God help us...he better not be deaf, should speak english, and hopefully not freeze in fear near a weapon...but I guess that would just be in this situation. In this case in particular, the "victim" was responding to statements made, and made it clear that he understood, yet had no intention to comply.

I know you hate cops, but why be so confrontational and obtuse? Not everyone here is a cop. Not everyone here is die hard "Back the Blue". The thing is, the more people push their opinions and versions of "what is right", the more some of us decide who we more closely align with. This is not in regards to badges or employment, but who's values more represent their own. Using the "what if they were deaf, forozen, etc..." is the same defense as LE..."What if they have a gun, knife, etc..."

So, by your metric, LE shouldn't act a certain way. Luckily LE doesn't share the same narrow opinion. If they did, everyone would be shot immediately upon a traffic stop. Anytime multiple individuals are in a tense situation, that situation is fluid. Every movement and action adds to the equation.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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No. This is why I asked about the other officer and approaching on the passenger side. He would be able to keep the other hand in his vision thus making it a safe move if done properly.

How do you think people ever get out of their vehicles any other time when directed to?
If they don't want to, they don't ever get out. 😂
 

C-Ya

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If the guy is in uniform, God help us...he better not be deaf, should speak english, and hopefully not freeze in fear near a weapon...but I guess that would just be in this situation. In this case in particular, the "victim" was responding to statements made, and made it clear that he understood, yet had no intention to comply.

I know you hate cops, but why be so confrontational and obtuse? Not everyone here is a cop. Not everyone here is die hard "Back the Blue". The thing is, the more people push their opinions and versions of "what is right", the more some of us decide who we more closely align with. This is not in regards to badges or employment, but who's values more represent their own. Using the "what if they were deaf, forozen, etc..." is the same defense as LE..."What if they have a gun, knife, etc..."

So, by your metric, LE shouldn't act a certain way. Luckily LE doesn't share the same narrow opinion. If they did, everyone would be shot immediately upon a traffic stop. Anytime multiple individuals are in a tense situation, that situation is fluid. Every movement and action adds to the equation.
Good points Monkeyswrench...... I have always appreciated your posts.

I do not hate the cops. I have seen them go to far...... then lie about it. My life experience. It should be noted that the police report on this incident did not match the video. No surprise there.
 

ArizonaKevin

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Good points Monkeyswrench...... I have always appreciated your posts.

I do not hate the cops. I have seen them go to far...... then lie about it. My life experience. It should be noted that the police report on this incident did not match the video. No surprise there.
I didn't know the report had been released yet because it is still an active investigation.

This highlights the need for agencies to have bodycams. In 9/10 situations it absolves the officer of wrongdoing and in the other 1/10 situations it allows the agency to take corrective action so this doesn't happen again.

Why I am proud to do what I do for a living. (I am the rep that sold Windsor, VA their bodycams last year)
 

Flying_Lavey

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Well I’m not entirely sure that is accurate
It is. His windows are up and deeply tinted. The officers need to ensure EVEYONE's safety in the situation. In order to do this, they have to make sure there are no other threats inside the vehicle. Had he at LEAST turned on his dome light as he pulled in, then there could be a possible leg to stand on for NOT getting out. Since he didn't, the officers could not see inside the vehicle, he drove for 2 minutes without stopping, then refused direction.... aggressive response is what happens. Take ANY one of those things out and its a different scenario. I do agree though that there needed to be more back and forth communication and some better tactics by the officers (as in one on each side of the vehicle To facilitate better observation of the driver and split focus of any possible other subjects inside the vehicle) for this particular situation.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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Sorry about mentioning the race thing. I basically mentioned it because the video shows white officers dealing with a black man. Even if I did not mention it....... the National audience sees it that way according to the news.
I agree with you that there is a swath of the population that views all cops as racist.. for whatever reason, right or wrong, for things that have been done in the past and events up though today. I think the vast majority of the population realize that there are a few bad cops, but by and large they help society as a whole. Some cops are dicks, I've dealt with some that are. That does not mean all of them are.

The solution is not continuing to divide people on this and every issue with police. The solution is not to make race a factor where it is not (not saying you did that). The mistaken shooting this week is a good example of that. Did the female cop grab her gun instead of her taser because of her racist implicit biases? Probably not, it was just a tragic accident.

I'm saying maybe society and cops can use moments like these collectively to learn from, instead of being divided over. Cops are also people and are also allowed to be afraid. They are allowed to go home safely just like the people they detain.
 

monkeyswrench

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Good points Monkeyswrench...... I have always appreciated your posts.

I do not hate the cops. I have seen them go to far...... then lie about it. My life experience. It should be noted that the police report on this incident did not match the video. No surprise there.
See, teach people honesty and recpect...with threat of a belt when younger, or try prison when they're older.

Belts were much cheaper...
And yes, all three involved here could have used a little more "belt training".
 

PlanB

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Well I do believe that is his right? Maybe one of the cops on here can clarify that.
The driver is being legally detained. The officer can keep him seated in the vehicle or remove him. He can also legally handcuff him and place him in the back of the unit until the stop is completed. Unless case law has changed on any of this since I retired, it's all perfectly legal. Maybe one of the guys still working can expound on this, but you do not have the right to refuse to exit your vehicle on a traffic stop. Glad I am retired...
 

spectra3279

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Obvious who's pro cop, and who's anti-cop here...
I'm just an asshole that's been in cuffs before, and had more than the average amount of "interactions" with badged individuals.
Some went better than others...
As I sit here, waiting to pick up one of my boys from school, I've decided what is happening in the vid:
Two cops are worried about the unknown. They may have no clue as to how to respect a human, nor gain respect...times have changed, life isn't Mayberry. A lot of the country has no respect for others, badged or not.
Lt. Dumbass is just as to blame. If someone thinks this was just by chance, go ahead and believe every story on the news. If he is truly like that, I am inclined to believe he was not taught respect in his home either.
I'm not anti cop. I believe they are needed and respect them. But even in the navy I did not blindly follow orders.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 

Just Ducky

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The guy is in the military and pulls the I was afraid card? Fucking really.Its pretty fucking simple. You get lit up you pull over and comply. Never had a problem in my 62 years of life with being pulled over.I was leaving for work at 5am on my bike and had an undercover car almost run me over stopping me cuz they thought I was my neighbor who they were looking for on a warrant. I showed them my I. D. They said no worries and I was on my way.Someone with his supposed military background being that uncooperative is strange. I think he obviously wanted the drama. The cops reacted appropriately considering they had no idea why he wasn't stopping.
 

Icky

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Jeezus.... If you guys are going to profess how fucked up the Cops are, at least understand the laws surrounding their actions.
You're talking to a bunch of people that declined to drive around 11 women in a pontoon and then stated all the bad things that could happen if they did 🤣🤣🤣
 

73mandella

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Well I’m not entirely sure that is accurate
This information was obtained from the Legal Sourcebook. This occurred in Virginia and I don’t know their laws. However, in California, there is reasonable suspicion to detain and probable cause to arrest. “For an investigative stop or detention to be valid, you must have "reasonable suspicion" that: (1) criminal activity may be afoot and (2) the person you are about to detain is connected with that possible criminal activity.” An example is speeding, weaving, tinted windows, etc. This gives the law enforcement officer the right to stop (detain) a person. A law enforcement officer may detain a person as long as it takes (within reason) to find probable cause to arrest. If that cannot be found, the person must be released. A routine traffic stop "must be temporary and last no longer than is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop." (Royer (1983) 460 U.S. 491, 500; Bell (1996) 43 Cal.App.4th 754, 761.) Typically, this means no longer than the time it takes to perform the duties necessary to warn the driver or issue a citation.

A law enforcement officer must have probable cause to arrest. Probable cause to arrest exists “…when the totality of the circumstances would lead a person of ordinary care and prudence to entertain an honest and strong suspicion that the person to be arrested is guilty of a crime.”

Duty to Stop/Use of Force to Stop Suspect

Whether you are detaining someone (1) to investigate your reasonable suspicion or (2) to issue a "cite and release" citation, the suspect has an obligation to stop. A suspect has "no right to resist" a lawful detention. (Lloyd (1989) 216 Cal.App.3d 1425, 1429.) If the suspect does not stop, he has violated Penal Code section 148 by obstructing or delaying you in the performance of your duties (Andre P. (1991) 226 Cal.App.3d 1164, 1169) and you may use physical force to make him stop (Johnson (1991) 231 Cal.App.3d 1, 12-13; Gregory S. (1980) 112 Cal.App.3d 764, 778).
 

monkeyswrench

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You're talking to a bunch of people that declined to drive around 11 women in a pontoon and then stated all the bad things that could happen if they did 🤣🤣🤣
In my defense, it was self preservation that led my not to "offer my services"...my wife would have strung my ass up at Pirate's! You think those cops were yelling? You have no idea 😂
 

monkeyswrench

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SnoC653

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Not sure what codes are in place where he was stopped, but exiting the vehicle and complying with instructions to do so are only mandatory if he has been legally detained and arrested. In almost every jurisdiction I can know of, officers are required to state what he is being detained for if asked. If the 1st officer did not go up and address the individual he was wrong. Standing at the cruiser (which these officers didn't appear to be worthy of calling their units a patrol car), gun drawn (excessive display of force causing reasonable fear), and shouting orders verbally and over the PA without any statement to justify it (we don't know as that wasn't in the video) are three strikes and the officer(s) should be out. De-escalation training should be mandatory for whichever officer was not immediately fired. If a traffic stop subject is speaking in a calm respectful voice the officer should have responded in kind. Calling in a felony traffic stop was over reacting as well. He didn't say subject did not stop immediately, he said felony traffic stop. The LT is lucky that chubby didn't draw and fire his weapon. The LT was correct in what he was saying and if they could not articulate a violation, he did not even need to talk to them.

Dealer tags are not grounds for a stop. Tinted windows at night is not a good reason to stop someone either (this may be illegal but how did they know if the tint was too dark). The LT was probably correct in his reasonable fear to stop on a dark road or comply with irrational hostile officers who appear to have stopped him for DWB (driving while black). Cops like these give good cops a bad rap. I noticed some officers on the form have not defended the officers and instead pointed out ways this could have gone a different direction. It could have gone a different direction if he complied with the requests, even if he wasn't required to do so. He didn't. It is ok to call a bad stop/response what it is. Just because they wear a badge and so do you, you don't have to try to justify or ignore what they do wrong. Every officer is trained to de-escalate a situation and to only use minimum force needed for the situation. Calm words met with pepper spray (not mace as the dog was choking) was excessive force all day long. The officer grabbing the LT's arm was wrong. He should have stated in a calm voice that you are being detained/arrested because......

I'll stop by saying the officers were way wrong. In our current state of distrust, officers should understand that some members of the public don't trust them. This stop will cost the city unnecessary settlement costs, one or two officers their career, and ad fuel to the mongers of hate and discontent. We all loose.
 

SnoC653

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The guy is in the military and pulls the I was afraid card? Fucking really.Its pretty fucking simple. You get lit up you pull over and comply. Never had a problem in my 62 years of life with being pulled over.I was leaving for work at 5am on my bike and had an undercover car almost run me over stopping me cuz they thought I was my neighbor who they were looking for on a warrant. I showed them my I. D. They said no worries and I was on my way.Someone with his supposed military background being that uncooperative is strange. I think he obviously wanted the drama. The cops reacted appropriately considering they had no idea why he wasn't stopping.
I was in the military and when I was lit up in a remote area, I turned on my flashers (this acknowledges the desire for me to stop), I proceeded a slower constant speed to a well lit public area before stopping (thus complying with the officer's desire for me to stop). I did something the LT didn't, I called 911 on my cell and told the dispatcher why I wasn't stopping on a dark back road for lights (I nor the LT in this case know for sure it is a police car actually trying to affect the stop). My case worked out much better as the officer that stopped me was drunk hunting and was stopping me for a license plate light out (one of two which is not illegal but still legal grounds to stop and notify) and he was professional and did not over react as the video posted shows in this case.
 

t&y

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For a million, I'll let a cop or Pantifa prick pick which of my legs they want to shoot...
Shit heals, and DCB's have hand controls 😂
That is what this is all about. He was looking for a pay day, plain and simple. It is actually kinda scary how many people in here lack so much common sense about what an officer can and can not do. I have failed as the Public Information Officer for the is Forum.

Dave, you can go ahead and cancel my salary... my access to the house in Cabo, and the unobstructed use of your car trailer. 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
 

SnoC653

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Lol........ oh boy. I guess SCOTUS rulings don't count in here. Cool story bro...
May 13, 2019 · In Virginia, there are no stop and identify laws. If a police officer stops you and asks for identification, you don’t have to show them your ID (unless it’s an investigative stop). However, if you are driving a motor vehicle, are a Green Card holder, or are in a locality that has its own stop and identify law, you’ll have to show your ID to a police or peace officer who asks for it.

A Terry stop is a temporary detainment, which is when the officer will determine if you’ve done anything wrong. During a Terry Stop, your rights are slightly diminished. You don’t have to answer any incriminating questions, but a Virginia officer has the right to know who you are, that you own (or have the right to drive) the vehicle, that it’s insured and that you are licensed to drive it.

Google is a wonderful tool. The key word in a Terry stop (based on SCOTUS rulling) is IF you have done something wrong. Courts have consistently ruled that the what justifying the stop needs to be disclosed if asked.

Virginia law also does not require a driver to stop in an unsafe location. So there was no felony committed. Thus the premise of the radio call for support on a felony stop was false. No felony stop, no force required.

If you have other questions we can discuss them in PM
 

t&y

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Oh, well thank you. Might want to check out a couple more while you are at it.

Pennsylvania v. Mimms
Maryland v. Wilson
Brendlin v. California

Also might want to work on the definition of a crime, and detention based on reasonable suspicion only, the local jurisdiction laws (generally penal and vehicle) regarding obstructing, delaying, or resisting and officer in the course of their duties,... That should give you a little start.
 

t&y

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I'll add a cool story too... I was driving along and got pulled over. I had no idea why the cop stopped me. I lowered all my windows, turned the car off as soon as it was completely stopped, put my hands on the steering wheel, obeyed all orders, and answered every question. Come to think of it... I even opened the glove box without being shot.. Son of a BITCH!!!! It's a wonder I'm still alive and breathing today.
 

t&y

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If you have other questions we can discuss them in PM
So sorry, I missed your last sentence. Discuss in PM's... hahahahaha... I've got nothing to hide dude. You wanna talk, leave it out here.
 

SnoC653

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I don't need to discuss it, I stated my point. You are clearly a legend in your own mind and all the professional and college training I've had on the subject must be wrong. Apparently these officers took the same training you did. Thus, they are in the trouble they are in.

Being in the right doesn't always work out the best for the person, and doing things that are wrong doesn't always work out bad for the person doing it. That doesn't make right wrong nor does it make wrong right. The LT was right, he is just lucky in this situation he isn't dead right.
 

t&y

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I don't need to discuss it, I stated my point. You are clearly a legend in your own mind and all the professional and college training I've had on the subject must be wrong. Apparently these officers took the same training you did. Thus, they are in the trouble they are in.

Being in the right doesn't always work out the best for the person, and doing things that are wrong doesn't always work out bad for the person doing it. That doesn't make right wrong nor does it make wrong right. The LT was right, he is just lucky in this situation he isn't dead right.
Legend... hardly. Just your run of the mill average street cop.

So with all that training, when is the last time you logged on and conducted a traffic stop?
 

SnoC653

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Legend... hardly. Just your run of the mill average street cop.

So with all that training, when is the last time you logged on and conducted a traffic stop?
So are you implying you would have handled that particular stop the same way? Based on the information that has been posted (no saying if I was stopping him there would have been this). From stopping the LT, to shouting on the PA, to calling for felony backup, to getting out of the cruiser weapon drawn? Do you make it a habit to draw your weapon when you get out? Do you even un-snap? Or do you use your professional training to avoid having to do any of that unless absolutely necessary?

And finally please tell me that you don't try to cite case law if you are ever on the stand. Talk to you prosecutor and ask him/her how he/she thinks that would play out if you did. Jail house lawyers rarely do well on the stand regardless of which side they are on.
 

lbhsbz

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Yet after the fat screaming cop was at his door, this Lt was in a bit of a conundrum --- in order to exit, it would require him a drop a hand to his waist to unbuckle his seat belt. Doing so would have surely caused fat boy to shoot, fat boy wouldn't listen, only kept repeatedly screaming. My point is --- and I've seen this countless times --- maybe the cops need to curtail or tone back the bitch screaming and actually communicate more rationally. Thereby giving this Lt the opportunity to explain --- " Officer I need to remove my belt, don't shoot me "
Dumb fucking cop keeps macing him, the attempts to drag him out while he's confined by the belt -- it was like a fucking Keystone Cops movie.
Dumb, Dumber and Dumber # 2 is what I witnessed.
seems like they gave him plenty of opportunities to exit the vehicle before it got to that point.
 

t&y

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So are you implying you would have handled that particular stop the same way? Based on the information that has been posted (no saying if I was stopping him there would have been this). From stopping the LT, to shouting on the PA, to calling for felony backup, to getting out of the cruiser weapon drawn? Do you make it a habit to draw your weapon when you get out? Do you even un-snap? Or do you use your professional training to avoid having to do any of that unless absolutely necessary?

And finally please tell me that you don't try to cite case law if you are ever on the stand. Talk to you prosecutor and ask him/her how he/she thinks that would play out if you did. Jail house lawyers rarely do well on the stand regardless of which side they are on.
So are you a cop or not? You reference "no saying if I was stopping him there would have been this" which is confusing to begin with... hahahahahaha

What I'm implying is you are talking about things you appear to have no practical application of. Book smarts are pretty cool until those books unfold and become alive in front of you.

I've already explained much of it in this thread on I believe the second and third page. I have no intention of hashing it out again because you showed up late to the party. You have made some pretty bold statements in here in regards to what can and can not be done by police, and I provided you three very easy to research cases that refute your claims. Not hard to figure out who knows what they are dealing with and who doesn't. Funny you bring up Terry, because each of the three are supported by Terry. Go figure.

Oh... and I've had my fun citing case law while on the stand. One of the funniest times was the judge admonishing Defense Council citing the exact case law I cited during testimony.

Hate to break it to you bud, but you are out of pocket right now.

By the way... what is this Felony Backup you keep referencing? Can you explain if there is Misdemeanor Backup, Infraction Backup, Municipal Code Violation Backup??? 😂
 
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SnoC653

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I was probably making traffic stops when you were no more than a gleam in your daddy's eye. At 61 I'm way past the age to be in a squad car. I chose military over LEO as a career. I do have the degree among others and would love to talk to officers like you on the stand, but my wife said no to practicing law so you're safe there. I'm ok with that as I generally prefer to support LEO not beat them up legally. I just don't like bad policing and bad officers.
If you didn't hear him call felony traffic stop at 15 seconds in, after he had his gun drawn, then you shouldn't be policing (IMO). You are stating what should have been done without all the facts. And that is a dangerous and scary thing to imagine. Stating it was a felony stop was in my opinion an attempt to justify having his weapon drawn. It also would have rolled backup to his location. Backup showed up and apparently like you, didn't take time to find out the facts before he started doing. It is what the backup did, that was what was across the line. The first officer didn't respond correctly given what we know. The video from the initial attempt to stop might give his response some credibility. But, we don't have that. The 1st officer was apparently afraid and responded out of concern for his safety. He was supposed to control the situation not be controlled by his fear. If he wasn't afraid why did he pull his weapon? Or are you saying they are trained to pull first, talk second? What is the criteria for that? And given the current situation in our country, what officer isn't aware that some citizens have an unnecessary fear of officers trying to do their job. With that knowledge in mind, how was the LT's response to the attempt to stop him unreasonable or non-compliant?
 

t&y

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I was probably making traffic stops when you were no more than a gleam in your daddy's eye. At 61 I'm way past the age to be in a squad car. I chose military over LEO as a career. I do have the degree among others and would love to talk to officers like you on the stand, but my wife said no to practicing law so you're safe there. I'm ok with that as I generally prefer to support LEO not beat them up legally. I just don't like bad policing and bad officers.
If you didn't hear him call felony traffic stop at 15 seconds in, after he had his gun drawn, then you shouldn't be policing (IMO).
Oh that's gold. You need to go back and read your posts again. Today, in general, we call them High Risk Traffic Stops because those of us actually working know that a stop for basic infraction can be deadly. Yes I heard what he said, and again, if you took the time to actually read to posts in here that has already been explained. You did nothing but come in here and add confusion.

I'd be very surprised if you ever worked in any type of Law Enforcement capacity, because your explanations in here are that of someone who has no real life experience in the civilian police world... but I'm sure you are super duper all knowing and smart.

You are stating what should have been done without all the facts. And that is a dangerous and scary thing to imagine. Stating it was a felony stop was in my opinion an attempt to justify having his weapon drawn. It also would have rolled backup to his location.
Another example where you may sound real cool to someone out of the business, but your actual lack of field experience as a cop is shinning bright to anybody with more than a couple of months of field time over the last 20 years. Of-Fucking,-Course, he called for back up on a traffic stop of a person who failed to yield for a mile and half, had dark tinted windows, and was not complying to orders. That younger cop did exactly what we train. That training, by the way, saves lives. Maybe you never had to face a violent felon, or have lost a partner on a traffic stop. I wish I could say the same in regards to the latter. So what would you have done super trooper? Just walked up on the car? If that is the case you are the type of reckless cop that we make training videos out of.

Backup showed up and apparently like you, didn't take time to find out the facts before he started doing.
Ohhh the irony. Showing up late in the party and acting like an idiot. Look in the mirror dude.

What you missed is my explanation of their tactics and legal reasons for the traffic stop. Valid vehicle code violation, legal detention, case law supporting ordering occupants out of the vehicle, etc.... Feel free to actually address those if you like.

It is what the backup did, that was what was across the line.
I never said I agreed with all the tactics the second officer used. But good luck trying to prove to me or anybody with a tiny bit of actual knowledge that his actions were not legal, or not within the majority of civilian police departments use of force policies across the board.

Here is an easy one for you. Can an officer use force to effect a legal detention?

The first officer didn't respond correctly given what we know. The video from the initial attempt to stop might give his response some credibility. But, we don't have that.
Video is out there that clears all of that up. The driver admits to seeing the officer even before the officer turned around to attempt a traffic stop. Not my fault you are the uneducated one on this matter.

The 1st officer was apparently afraid and responded out of concern for his safety. He was supposed to control the situation not be controlled by his fear. If he wasn't afraid why did he pull his weapon? Or are you saying they are trained to pull first, talk second? What is the criteria for that?
Oh, you don't know. You've been doing traffic stops since before I was a gleam in my daddy's eye right? Are you actually telling me you don't know how that is regulated, yet you think you are capable of breaking down the legality's of the over all traffic stop, detention, and investigation?

This should be fun for you... My gun was/is out on most of my traffic stops. As of late it's been more rifle work than not, but that is another story. Do you think I should go turn myself in?

And given the current situation in our country, what officer isn't aware that some citizens have an unnecessary fear of officers trying to do their job. With that knowledge in mind, how was the LT's response to the attempt to stop him unreasonable or non-compliant?
That's a great point and question. The issues in trust between Law Enforcement and the community are bad at the moment... Well that is of course if you believe the main stream media who make a very clear point of painting officers negatively any chance they get. You wanna know who else causes a ton of rift between Law Enforcement and the Community? People just like you, who claim to know current policy and practice, then go on forums like this professing things that are easily debunked.

How was the LT's response unreasonable or non compliant? Give me a break. Go send your money to the BLM and stop telling people you support the police. It is obvious you don't. How about he should have acted like a responsible adult and simply followed the orders given from the get go.

Here is an honest suggestion for you here. Look up Officer Tatum on youtube. Watch and listen to his breakdown of this incident, if for nothing more than the conversation that is had between the driver and younger cop towards the end. There is the water, drink it if you want to.
 

WYRD

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Just for the sake of argument, what if all 3 of them are buddies and staged the whole stop to sue the city and split $1M + any gofundme charity monies? At first it seems far-fetched but then..🤔🤷‍♂️
 

Taboma

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seems like they gave him plenty of opportunities to exit the vehicle before it got to that point.
I don't agree. He possibly had a tiny window initially, I believe he knew if he exited immediately, he was going to end up face down on the asphalt, possibly getting worked over by two Virginia hick town cops.

He's an educated 2 Lt. Army Medic, apparently he felt he might actually be able to communicate, he was wrong. He was dealing with idiots.
After he'd squandered the initial opportunity, their insane screaming put him in a Catch 22, damned if he didn't and an excuse to get shot if he did.

The cops must have been blind not to realize if they'd just chilled a bit, stopped the insane screaming for a second, this whole incident would have immediately deescalated and been a nothing to see here incident.

I bet if the cops had shined their light on the rear tinted window of the burb, they'd have seen the paper plate.

Mistakes were made on both sides, but in the end, he got pepper sprayed and one hell of a pay day. That little hick-burg got screwed big time by two ticket writers who will be lucky to get jobs as mall cops going forward.

With this event making national news, and about 95% of the comments I've read stunned by the insane antics of the cops ---- the optics are horrible.

Everybody fucked up, but he won.
 

hallett21

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There was a loaded and chambered weapon in the car.
Right. I was speaking towards him complying with two severely agitated police officers. They had the situation at level 11 out of 10. Who’s to say when he reaches back into the car they are not in fear for their lives and pop one off.

I was saying at that moment in time I’m pretty certain I would not put either of hands out of their sight.

I’d have to re watch but I don’t believe the fire arm is mentioned until after he’s out of the car. I saw it was loaded but I didn’t see any ammo come out when the cop cycles the gun.


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Mcob25rg

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Not a cop OR lawyer, but I know that after 9/11, we gave up ALOT of rights when they passed the Patriot Act, specifically police right to stop and search on any suspicion. Kid who’s a 17 year LEO said they DO NOT have to tell you why they’re stopping you, absolutely have the right to pull you from the vehicle without giving reason, and with tinted windows ( yes, mine are ) you can expect to see the business end of a service weapon on ANY stop. Kid knows I don’t like being pushed around, but his advice is to comply with ALL directions, and figure it out later in a well lit room, standing next to someone making $500/hour to protect me, otherwise you risk everything. I want him to come home, so in the many times I’ve wanted to tell the attending officer to pound salt, I’ve always complied with them. If you really have a valid argument, it will be presented in court. My last speed stop was another cluster, and I was able to win out, but not on the side of the road, just had to go with the 22 year old bossing me around LOL. He won’t see a 10 year pin, and I’ll feel sorry for his parents when it happens, but power makes people stupid in most cases.
 

hallett21

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The LT had a loaded gun?
He had a handgun in the center console from what I remember.

Cop wearing the body cam checks it out. I don’t believe it was chambered. But it was loaded.


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Rajobigguy

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Right. I was speaking towards him complying with two severely agitated police officers. They had the situation at level 11 out of 10. Who’s to say when he reaches back into the car they are not in fear for their lives and pop one off.

I was saying at that moment in time I’m pretty certain I would not put either of hands out of their sight.

I’d have to re watch but I don’t believe the fire arm is mentioned until after he’s out of the car. I saw it was loaded but I didn’t see any ammo come out when the cop cycles the gun.


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A round popped out and landed on the seat, then the cop picked it up. I need to watch it again because I thought they asked him if he had a gun and he replied he wasn't armed (could be wrong on that point) then later after he was out of the car he said that he had a gun in the car.
 
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