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Army Lt. traffic stop

hallett21

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A round popped out and landed on the seat, then the cop picked it up. I need to watch it again because I thought they asked him if he had a gun and he replied he wasn't armed (could be wrong on that point) then later after he was out of the car he said that he had a gun in the car.
I didn’t catch that. Is chambered legal there?

I’d have to watch again to see when he mentioned the fire arm.


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73mandella

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Good points Monkeyswrench...... I have always appreciated your posts.

I do not hate the cops. I have seen them go to far...... then lie about it. My life experience. It should be noted that the police report on this incident did not match the video. No surprise there.
Did I miss something. Where is the police report posted?
 

73mandella

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I'm not anti cop. I believe they are needed and respect them. But even in the navy I did not blindly follow orders.

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I’ve read your post a few times and wasn’t going to respond because I’m not sure what you mean by blindly following an order. Was it a lawful order? If it was, did you ask for clarification, suggest another way to carry out the order, or did you just refuse to carry out the order? I see it as insubordination and have to ask how the Navy deals with insubordination. Assuming that a superior gave you a lawful order that you refused to carry out while you were in the Navy, what happened when you refused to obey?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. The way I saw the Army Lieutenant's actions (based on California cases law), he refused to obey a lawful order.
 

SKIDMARC

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I get your frustration with what some are saying on her. I also get what some of what others are saying. I think at the end of the day the problem is both sides aren’t willing to try and understand the other. As with allot of things going on in the country. Your LEO which I respect and support. But I’ve been told I can’t support LEO and like to watch MLB so there’s that.

I think most would agree both sides could have handled the situation better. LEO could have still drawn there weapons but communicated better which I think might have helped but hind sight is always 20/20. The LT could have also complied immediately.

I think it all comes down to communication. Their was allot of communication going on but the LEO wasn’t listening and neither was the LT. But I think it all kinda of started with how the LEO’ approached initially. JMO.
 

SnoC653

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There are a couple points. The LT is in the military. What state was the vehicle registered in? What state was his carry permit from? Does Virginia have reciprocity with the state his carry permit is from? Is one in the pipe legal in his state? If the vehicle was legal in the registered state they he committed no offense to stop him in the first place. Yes, I understand if they can't read the temp tag how do they know what state it's from. So they should have been better trained on how to deal with that, as Virginia has a lot of military people in the state. And if the state has reciprocity with his permit state, Virginia's carry laws don't matter either. I always have one in the pipe, as it is legal here. Depending on where the weapon was, meaning not within his immediate grasp, he could say he was unarmed and be correct. If they had asked if there are any weapons in the vehicle and he said no, then he would be wrong.

Not every state conforms to California's version of citizen rights. And they certainly don't allow officers to do some of the things California seems to be ok with based on what is being reported here.
 

Rajobigguy

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I didn’t catch that. Is chambered legal there?

I’d have to watch again to see when he mentioned the fire arm.


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I have no idea what Va. law is or what permits he might have for CCW. All I know for sure is that he had a loaded weapon and it was at his ready.
 

mobldj

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just because you wear a uniform doesnt mean you arent a thug or asshat.i was in the army for 3 years. lots of soldiers were in because they were given a choice by a judge to go to jail or enlist.. levenworth military prison isnt full of only deserters. i think the dudes after money .thats my 2 cents
 

thetub

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feel really bad for whats happening to coppers now...

the arm chair quarterbacks and propaganda machine are tearing you apart...

these stops they make are not negotiations or debates... follow their instructions and thats it

they are the ones getting shot at and pulling up to the unknown situations everyday all day long...

within a split second their lives can be taken

they deal with the felon , unstable, desperate scum of the earth people who we have the luxury of not dealing with.... some have been exposed to these types ...

i for one dont mind alot more policing and extra from coppers as my neighborHOOD has taken a turn for the worse...
 

spectra3279

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I’ve read your post a few times and wasn’t going to respond because I’m not sure what you mean by blindly following an order. Was it a lawful order? If it was, did you ask for clarification, suggest another way to carry out the order, or did you just refuse to carry out the order? I see it as insubordination and have to ask how the Navy deals with insubordination. Assuming that a superior gave you a lawful order that you refused to carry out while you were in the Navy, what happened when you refused to obey?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. The way I saw the Army Lieutenant's actions (based on California cases law), he refused to obey a lawful order.
No they weren't lawful orders. And yes I even questioned lawful ones if I felt they were stupid.

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Flying_Lavey

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There are a couple points. The LT is in the military. What state was the vehicle registered in? What state was his carry permit from? Does Virginia have reciprocity with the state his carry permit is from? Is one in the pipe legal in his state? If the vehicle was legal in the registered state they he committed no offense to stop him in the first place. Yes, I understand if they can't read the temp tag how do they know what state it's from. So they should have been better trained on how to deal with that, as Virginia has a lot of military people in the state. And if the state has reciprocity with his permit state, Virginia's carry laws don't matter either. I always have one in the pipe, as it is legal here. Depending on where the weapon was, meaning not within his immediate grasp, he could say he was unarmed and be correct. If they had asked if there are any weapons in the vehicle and he said no, then he would be wrong.

Not every state conforms to California's version of citizen rights. And they certainly don't allow officers to do some of the things California seems to be ok with based on what is being reported here.
How can you be better trained to deal with a non-visible tag? Are you saying officers need to have night vision or X-ray vision? Even though, I do believe, EVERY state in the union requires license plates/tags and temp tags alike to be PLAINLY visible and likely lit at night. There is more than enough probable cause for the stop right there.
 

Uncle Dave

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I had an Australian buddy make a comment that I though the inmates would find amusing

" Everyone in that video are a bunch of cunts"
 

73mandella

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No they weren't lawful orders. And yes I even questioned lawful ones if I felt they were stupid.

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Maybe the orders weren’t lawful in Virginia, I’ll give you that because I’m not familiar with Virginia State law and case law. I have questioned orders and/or recommended a better way to do something, but when the order was lawful and did not violate policy, I obeyed the order. To not do so was/is insubordination and just because I thought it was stupid is not a defense.

I worked for a certain Lieutenant periodically (we rotated shifts every 4 months). This guy regularly disagreed with the chief. Instead of obeying direct orders he didn’t like, he would tell his staff that they would do things his way, not the chief’s. Whether you are in the military or in law enforcement, that is not acceptable.
 
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SnoC653

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How can you be better trained to deal with a non-visible tag? Are you saying officers need to have night vision or X-ray vision? Even though, I do believe, EVERY state in the union requires license plates/tags and temp tags alike to be PLAINLY visible and likely lit at night. There is more than enough probable cause for the stop right there.
Better trained in this case would mean that if the vehicle was legal, their grounds for the stop would have been to simply confirm the legality of the vehicle not to apprehend a law breaker which is something they should have been aware of as a very legit possibility. Things like yelling commands at the driver vs asking the driver to comply so we can insure everyone's safety (request and explanation) which means show the driver respect instead of the disrespect he was given. Better trained also would not have resulted in one officer already fired and the other still catching heat. Simply put, even their own department says they messed up the stop. Here in Iowa the temp tag can be in the window with no lights. 3 of 3 officers I spoke with during work today all didn't know if the tag could be behind tint or not. All three also said no plate on the bumper doesn't automatically make the car illegal but would be grounds for a stop and check.

This wasn't an unintentional mistake, it was a series of bad choices that were intentionally made. Grabbing the wrong handle and discharging your weapon rather than your taser as reported elsewhere was an unintentional mistake (one that holds very serious consequences and one that is very unfortunate). Intentional bad choices are simply wrong and the officer making them needs to go (and that won't be unfortunate at all).

What is really sad is that some feel you have to either accept everything the police do, or be against everything they do and stand for. When they do it right support and praise them, when they do it wrong, don't be afraid to point it out. Making mistakes is human, how you deal with your mistakes is what sets you above or below others. Orderly society needs the police, but we need them to follow the rules too.
 

t&y

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Good god this is still going on.. hahahahaha..

Based on the law where this occurred, the traffic stop was LEGAL. The detention was LEGAL. Ordering the driver out of the vehicle was LEGAL. Oh, and for the all knowing, those SCOTUS cases I mentioned travel coast to coast, pretty much like every other SCOTUS ruling. Not sure why anyone would think those only apply in Cali.

What we are seeing are a bunch of snowflakes upset because the second cop was yelling. Jeeezuuussssss... that is it. Cut through the bullshit.

All of this could have been avoided had the driver followed orders and exited the vehicle.

By the way, the police chief didn't fire the Second Cop for misconduct. He was let go because after the Cancel Culture took over, he believed that cop was ineffective. That is where people should really be focused. If that happened to me, over LEGAL actions I took on a traffic stop, I'd be a millionaire in the very near future.

Feel free to point out legal reasons why anything I've said above is not correct. As far as crying over a cop yelling... give me a fucking break.
 
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SnoC653

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give me a fucking break.
We are..... we're continuing to let you ramble and act like exactly the kind of cop that makes good cops cringe. So please feel free to carry on. You will regardless.
 

t&y

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We are..... we're continuing to let you ramble and act like exactly the kind of cop that makes good cops cringe. So please feel free to carry on. You will regardless.
Too funny. So super trooper, when you were conducting all those traffic stops where was it. On a base, or on the street?
 
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C-Ya

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A well intentioned family member sent me this video an hour ago........

The person in the video did not listen to police commands........ look what happened to this poor 73 year old woman with dementia.....

Would one of you in Law Enforcement please justify this?



 

spectra3279

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Maybe the orders weren’t lawful in Virginia, I’ll give you that because I’m not familiar with Virginia State law and case law. I have questioned orders and/or recommended a better way to do something, but when the order was lawful and did not violate policy, I obeyed the order. To not do so was/is insubordination and just because I thought it was stupid is not a defense.

I worked for a certain Lieutenant periodically (we rotated shifts every 4 months). This guy regularly disagreed with the chief. Instead of obeying direct orders he didn’t like, he would tell his staff that they would do things his way, not the chief’s. Whether you are in the military or in law enforcement, that is not acceptable.
The navy taught us to question orders, to not blindly follow them. Maybe you were in a different navy.

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spectra3279

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Good god this is still going on.. hahahahaha..

Based on the law where this occurred, the traffic stop was LEGAL. The detention was LEGAL. Ordering the driver out of the vehicle was LEGAL. Oh, and for the all knowing, those SCOTUS cases I mentioned travel coast to coast, pretty much like every other SCOTUS ruling. Not sure why anyone would think those only apply in Cali.

What we are seeing are a bunch of snowflakes upset because the second cop was yelling. Jeeezuuussssss... that is it. Cut through the bullshit.

All of this could have been avoided had the driver followed orders and exited the vehicle.

By the way, the police chief didn't fire the Second Cop for misconduct. He was let go because after the Cancel Culture took over, he believed that cop was ineffective. That is where people should really be focused. If that happened to me, over LEGAL actions I took on a traffic stop, I'd be a millionaire in the very near future.

Feel free to point out legal reasons why anything I've said above is not correct. As far as crying over a cop yelling... give me a fucking break.
Not crying over it. The cops should have been trying to de-escalate the situation not escalating it. That is my whole problem with it and other videos of cops. To me they seem to have the mentality they are soldiers in kabul.

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SnoC653

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A well intentioned family member sent me this video an hour ago........

The person in the video did not listen to police commands........ look what happened to this poor 73 year old woman with dementia.....

Would one of you in Law Enforcement please justify this?



What would you like justified? Her injuries were a result of her fighting the detention. The officer needed to restrain her as she was not responding or co-operating. This is not only to protect them from her, but to protect her from herself. If she had dementia as reported she was a risk to herself walking down a trafficked roadway. What if she suddenly ran out in front of a car trying to escape from the officer. She was obviously reported to the police as a person that had committed a crime. Just because she wasn't prosecuted, does not mean she didn't commit the theft. To a person with dementia, what is the difference between picking flowers on the roadway or picking flowers from the pots for sale at Wal-Mart? So they had a reason to stop her. As to the rest of the allegations of mistreatment, the video doesn't show that. Nor does it show or ask why a person that should be supervised based on the viewed level of dementia, wasn't being supervised and was allowed to go walk where there is traffic. Was she supposed to be in a supervised care facility? Did the officers know she was a dementia patient?

Yes there are other ways the stop could have happened, but we don't know the history of this person nor what happened outside of this very one sided video. Her arm could have been broken when she first was taken to the ground. It could have already been broken before any of this. The narrator wants us to believe his version.
 

t&y

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A well intentioned family member sent me this video an hour ago........

The person in the video did not listen to police commands........ look what happened to this poor 73 year old woman with dementia.....

Would one of you in Law Enforcement please justify this?



I'd be happy to give you an actual working cops perspective of that contact, or you could go with the career military guy, who's wife wouldn't let him be a lawyer, but he has a lot of training and education (his words, not mine).

But before I answer you, I will ask this; Do you believe there is a correlation between this arrest and the arrest of the LT? Or do you bring this up because of your fathers deal with the CHP?
 

t&y

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The navy taught us to question orders, to not blindly follow them. Maybe you were in a different navy.

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Interesting. I have stated it on here before, but in case you missed it, I was never in the military. I will not try to opine on their practices or procedures because I simply do not know them (It's a noble concept for sure). That being said, I will also admit that given it is the military and there is a chain of command, I find it a bit odd that they would teach you to question orders. Oh well, doesn't effect me.
Not crying over it. The cops should have been trying to de-escalate the situation not escalating it. That is my whole problem with it and other videos of cops. To me they seem to have the mentality they are soldiers in kabul.

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Hmmm So where do you come up with that opinion? Is it from multiple personal contacts, or news articles, or youtube video's? I'm just curious because across the nation there are millions of police and public contacts that go down without the slightest issue. Factor in the ones that end in any type of force and it is still very minimal. Do you honestly believe most cops think they are soldiers?

But on to the issue which you seem to have with the stop... As I've said, the cop attempted to stop the driver for a valid violation of that states statutes. It was a legal detention in which the driver initially did not stop and instead drove for another mile and half, only to compound that issue with refusing to step out of the car as ordered. The cops escalated to meet the potential threat, then IN FACT did de-escalate. Did you notice guns drawn and distance in the beginning? Then guns put away and a partial approach? Then Taser deployed, and an attempt to control the arm? Then that was changed to simple O.C. Spray? That is literally de-escalation. All that considered, is your issue with the cop yelling orders to the LT. who decided not to follow any of them?
 
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spectra3279

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Interesting. I have stated it on here before, but in case you missed it, I was never in the military. I will not try to opine on their practices or procedures because I simply do not know them (It's a noble concept for sure). That being said, I will also admit that given it is the military and there is a chain of command, I find it a bit odd that they would teach you to question orders. Oh well, doesn't effect me.


Hmmm So where do you come up with that opinion? Is it from multiple personal contacts, or news articles, or youtube video's? I'm just curious because across the nation there are millions of police and public contacts that go down with the slightest issue. Factor in the ones that end in any type of force and it is still very minimal. Do you honestly believe most cops think they are soldiers?

But on to the issue which you seem to have with the stop... As I've said, the cop attempted to stop the driver for a valid violation of that states statutes. It was a legal detention in which the driver initially did not stop and instead drove for another mile and half, only to compound that issue with refusing to step out of the car as ordered. The cops escalated to meet the potential threat, then IN FACT did de-escalate. Did you notice guns drawn and distance in the beginning? Then guns put away and a partial approach? Then Taser deployed, and an attempt to control the arm? Then that was changed to simple O.C. Spray? That is literally de-escalation. All that considered, is your issue with the cop yelling orders to the LT. who decided not to follow any of them?
Yes I do believe cops have gotten to militarized and think their are soldiers in Kabul or samalia. Not everybody is an enemy. I've explained my issues with cops on here before. There is no excuse for it.

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t&y

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Yes I do believe cops have gotten to militarized and think their are soldiers in Kabul or samalia. Not everybody is an enemy. I've explained my issues with cops on here before. There is no excuse for it.

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Oh ok, well, I do not believe I'm in Kabul or Samalia. I actually have partners that have served in many places around the world, some I would consider legit operators. None of them think we are anywhere near militarized. But you are entitled to your opinion just like I'm entitled to mine.
 

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After reading this train wreck of a thread I think we need to give all law-enforcement the summer off and just see how it goes,

I’m sure there’s enough social workers and psychologists to handle all the problems.

I guess I’m seeing the left’s logic in defunding the police, kind of makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

On a personal note, I think I’m going to start drinking again because I’m losing all hope for society. 🙁
 
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