AZ Owner Build Pool Design Needed

[FROGMAN524]

I’ve been getting quotes from builders big and small for a pool/outdoor kitchen/landscaping and these people are nuts. Going to build my own pool and save 60-70% but I need a design/plans for permit in Maricopa County. Anybody have a connection?

 

[DarkJuJu]

There used to be a "build your own pool" website a while I go I recall. Building your own is the way to go IMO, you end up doing most of the work of the super anyhow (my experience at least). The pool builders all sub the trades for the most part, your issue may just be herding the cats and getting your project done within your time frame.

 

[AQUA-HOLICS]

You can draw the pool design yourself, lots of owner builders do their own.

 

[Hypnautic]

There used to be a "build your own pool" website a while I go I recall. Building your own is the way to go IMO, you end up doing most of the work of the super anyhow (my experience at least). The pool builders all sub the trades for the most part, your issue may just be herding the cats and getting your project done within your time frame.

Do you find the subs raise their prices when you are acting a owner/builder?

 

[FROGMAN524]

Looking for something like this 18x48’ with the kitchen on the opposite side of the pool and no swim up bar as I don’t want it sunken and want an outdoor fireplace built in.

 

[Angler]

When it comes to hiring the subs, make sure they have liability insurance,
a $15k bond is not enough if someone were to get hurt.

 

[Instigator]

I’ve been getting quotes from builders big and small for a pool/outdoor kitchen/landscaping and these people are nuts. Going to build my own pool and save 60-70% but I need a design/plans for permit in Maricopa County. Anybody have a connection?

I sent you a PM.
Here is the last one I did for my neighbor/buddy.

 

[Melloyellovector]

My designer can get plan and engineering done. He can do zoom live meeting design with full 3d walk thru if you wanted.
simple plan and engineering will be most cost effective since you know what you want.
saving 60-70% i highly highly doubt az builders are putting that much mark up
post a quote, let’s break it down what costs are likely gonna be

 

[FROGMAN524]

My designer can get plan and engineering done. He can do zoom live meeting design with full 3d walk thru if you wanted.
simple plan and engineering will be most cost effective since you know what you want.
saving 60-70% i highly highly doubt az builders are putting that much mark up
post a quote, let’s break it down what costs are likely gonna be

All quotes for that pool I showed above are near or more than $300,000. I know several people who have done their own builds and commonly doing them for 1/3rd to 1/2 of their quotes from Presidential, California, Rondo, Shasta Pools and the like.

 

[RIVERBORN]

When it comes to hiring the subs, make sure they have liability insurance,
a $15k bond is not enough if someone were to get hurt.

Bonds are not designed or implemented to cover injury. Only a basic requirement to cover financial loss.

 

[RIVERBORN]

Also if your being owner/contractor and injury is at ur fault your responsible regardless… as far as I understand. Not a lawyer….

 

[CigAjerk]

My designer can get plan and engineering done. He can do zoom live meeting design with full 3d walk thru if you wanted.
simple plan and engineering will be most cost effective since you know what you want.
saving 60-70% i highly highly doubt az builders are putting that much mark up
post a quote, let’s break it down what costs are likely gonna be

This is for me from a friend who's been building here since 92. I am a AZ GC KB-2 and priced this out as an owner build. Not worth the headache imo. I'm gonna let him do it.

 

[Melloyellovector]

Looking for something like this 18x48’ with the kitchen on the opposite side of the pool and no swim up bar as I don’t want it sunken and want an outdoor fireplace built in.

All quotes for that pool I showed above are near or more than $300,000. I know several people who have done their own builds and commonly doing them for 1/3rd to 1/2 of their quotes from Presidential, California, Rondo, Shasta Pools and the like.

My point of posting a quote is to price apples to apples. Showing a video and stating its 300k + then removing swim up bar, removing sunken bbq area can remove 50k plus from a bid. pavers can be done for 8-10psf for cheap pavers or like video porcelain pavers can be up to 50psf + on 1000 Sq ft deck that can 40k difference in costs. normal drains in concrete and low end paver deck is 1000 range, hidden and or ss slot drains in porcelain pavers can be 10k plus. As an owner builder you think you just saved 100k and reality is you changed the scope of work.
In a perfect world a builder may be as much as 33% profit. On a high end project ( 300k-1m ) usually end up in the 20-25% range. Add in unforeseen problems/delays and that percent can and does drop every week.

Either way if you need help or have questions reach out, I have helped others on here do owner build pools in other states. W materials, questions, advice etc

AZ is highway robbery on plaster/pebble finishes. But no way around it. Bring in guys from ca or nv and the cost itself will be less but add travel costs and hotels will add up what local would have been.

If you want number for designer that can do plan and engineering let me know and I’ll forward. really good guy, and he’s hungry right now.

This is for me from a friend who's been building here since 92. I am a AZ GC KB-2 and priced this out as an owner build. Not worth the headache imo. I'm gonna let him do it.

That pricing actually looks good. The filter up charge is silly high, but it’s hundreds not thousands. Sooo not worth pointing out when his eztouch w screen logic is below distribution cost he actually pays. Lol

As an owner builder ya you could save some, but also take on all the liability of mistakes or problems. Subs may help but they can and usually blame who ever worked after them. For a non contractor person to do, it’s for sure do able, how ever they rely on subs to know what they want. Simple pools likely ok. But I have seen some nightmare fk ups that have cost owners 10s of thousands to correct.

 

[Angler]

Also if your being owner/contractor and injury is at ur fault your responsible regardless… as far as I understand. Not a lawyer….

That's why subs need liability and WC.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Hired a pool designer who will give me 2 and 3D renderings as well as all needed and required drawings for permit application and all subs. This is the first rendition from my designer. Adding fake decking and pergola south side of pool, opposite of spa, to run length of pool. Running travertine all the way to the house and inside patio to Arcadia door. Adding cabinets and ice maker, beverage cooler and pizza oven on south side of Ramada. Adding planters, fire bowls and fake grass around the pool area and maybe a pergola over the north side of the pool to attach to the patio cover on the house.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Final design minus stack stone on Ramada legs

 

[AQUA-HOLICS]

Is the Spa elevation at + 0” ?

 

[FROGMAN524]

Is the Spa elevation at + 0” ?

Affirmative

 

[Melloyellovector]

nice design, so based off of 300k+ quotes, and your gonna save 60-70%. meaning your gonna build everything in that design for 120k?
I’d bet your patio covers, sunken bar/bbq, fireplace, and rock slide grotto equal that budget. No pool no deck
really not meaning to sound like a dick, just being realistic.
I can dig the enthusiasm. Look forward to watching the progress and actual costs

the spa fine at zero, when you shoot, adjust dam wall elevation to -2 ( just above pool waterline ) instead of -3. Otherwise heated water will equalize back n forth between pool making that entire outer wall a cold zone in spa, and it will cycle heater non stop to maintain temp.

 

[EarpRider]

Is the Spa elevation at + 0” ?

That was my only question also.
Everything looks amazing, but maybe have the spa raised up. A raised up area is nice to sit on the edge and put your feet in even when the water isn't heated. This is mine, I sit on the spa edge alot.

 

[Angler]

Final design minus stack stone on Ramada legs
View attachment 1209680 View attachment 1209681 View attachment 1209682

Nice setup! The spa needs to be raised up, it will always just as warm as the pool.
If you have young children or Grand kids, I would suggest you make the Baja shelf bigger too. JMHO

 

[AQUA-HOLICS]

Spas at + 0” look awesome, get involved with the Shotcrete process to insure it’s at the correct height.

 

[FROGMAN524]

nice design, so based off of 300k+ quotes, and your gonna save 60-70%. meaning your gonna build everything in that design for 120k?
I’d bet your patio covers, sunken bar/bbq, fireplace, and rock slide grotto equal that budget. No pool no deck
really not meaning to sound like a dick, just being realistic.
I can dig the enthusiasm. Look forward to watching the progress and actual costs

the spa fine at zero, when you shoot, adjust dam wall elevation to -2 ( just above pool waterline ) instead of -3. Otherwise heated water will equalize back n forth between pool making that entire outer wall a cold zone in spa, and it will cycle heater non stop to maintain temp.

Fellow RDP guys in AZ, not CA, have PM’d me confirming a minimum 50% savings on multiple pool builds cutting out the big companies and going straight to the subs and paying cash. Not saying who’s right, just saying I’ll be for sure paying less for the same product. Nobody will be as OCD about things as the customer is, myself, and if I fuck it up, it’s on me.

As far as the spa, the other suggestion I got was +18 and to be honest, I’ll probably use the spa a couple of times a year at most.

 

[Melloyellovector]

Fellow RDP guys in AZ, not CA, have PM’d me confirming a minimum 50% savings on multiple pool builds cutting out the big companies and going straight to the subs and paying cash. Not saying who’s right, just saying I’ll be for sure paying less for the same product. Nobody will be as OCD about things as the customer is, myself, and if I fuck it up, it’s on me.

As far as the spa, the other suggestion I got was +18 and to be honest, I’ll probably use the spa a couple of times a year at most.

Same elevation is fine, just the dam wall ( tile wall between pool and spa) is just above pool water line. Very common on pools with automatic covers. Nice clean look, and no calcium build up that you get with raised spas.

you’ll save money for sure, I don’t doubt that.

Again feel free to pm any questions, help sourcing materials, advise etc. I‘ll help anyway I can

 

[FROGMAN524]

Same elevation is fine, just the dam wall ( tile wall between pool and spa) is just above pool water line. Very common on pools with automatic covers. Nice clean look, and no calcium build up that you get with raised spas.

you’ll save money for sure, I don’t doubt that.

Again feel free to pm any questions, help sourcing materials, advise etc. I‘ll help anyway I can

Thank you. It’s going to be an adventure. Looking forward to it though.

 

[steamin rice]

Nice design. I did an owner/builder pool at my house about 5 years ago. I probably saved around 25% on my build, and overall I'm happy with how things turned out. There were a couple of minor items that an experienced pool builder would have caught that I missed, but nothing catastrophic. The $$ saved was worth it to me, but there was a fair amount of my time and stress involved going the route that I did.

Overall, I would do an owner/builder pool again, but there is definitely value in using an experienced pool builder.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Got permit drawings today and waiting on bids from two engineering firms. So far I’ve got some sub contractor bids coming in and we redesigned the rock feature with slide to include a water fall and grotto with rear entrance. We will move the pool equipment elsewhere to be able to use the entire thing for fun.

Rock feature drawing and example of what it should look like.

 

[FROGMAN524]

First bids I’ve gotten:

Shot Crete: $23,000
Rock feature/slide/grotto: $18,500
Layout: $320
Engineering: $1,750 w/o Ramada so far

 

[Melloyellovector]

what all are they engineering? Pool engineering in Anaheim Ca, yes they do details for other states. And yes they engineer anything outdoors
Pool is standard detail, rock detail, posts on bond beam detail, freestanding pool wall detail for sunken area, and columns
should be 500 range, if custom added for patio cover at bar add 1000 range, fireplace depends if a standard or custom can be 100 up to 1500 range

 

[Joker]

I’d never do it again. Good luck

 

[crzy2bealive]

Awesome! Can’t wait to see the progress

 

[scottchbrite]

Nice design. I did an owner/builder pool at my house about 5 years ago. I probably saved around 25% on my build, and overall I'm happy with how things turned out. There were a couple of minor items that an experienced pool builder would have caught that I missed, but nothing catastrophic. The $$ saved was worth it to me, but there was a fair amount of my time and stress involved going the route that I did.

Overall, I would do an owner/builder pool again, but there is definitely value in using an experienced pool builder.

This was exactly my experience & I was able to do my pool in 7 months vs waiting on a list. There’s stuff that a pro like @Melloyellovector would have caught early on that wouldn’t have been an issue. The thing that most people need to realize when they do owner builder is the small headaches that you have to constantly deal with during and AFTER. For instance, I have some grout for the marble coping that needs fixing and minor stucco repair needed. All things I can easily do but aren’t excited to do, and I’ve been procrastinating. Normally the contractor would be fixing these instead of me.
Hence why Im paying someone to do my solar

 

[FROGMAN524]

Ok more bids coming in:

Excavation: $11,500
Engineering: $3,950
Shotcrete: $46,000

 

[Melloyellovector]

46k shotcrete, do you wear a rape victim shirt meeting subs? Lol
looks to be about 120 Lin ft of pool and spa, plus patio footings to floor of pool, plus rbb and columns, and rockwork. I’d say 50 yard range maybe 60 at most. Ask local Shotcrete or gunite guys how much per yard. Likely 300 range, less for high volume builders, putting you around 18k range. For 46k I will physically drive my guys to your house and do it

 

[SKIDMARC]

Shotcrete quotes are way off. One is double the price?

 

[FROGMAN524]

46k shotcrete, do you wear a rape victim shirt meeting subs? Lol
looks to be about 120 Lin ft of pool and spa, plus patio footings to floor of pool, plus rbb and columns, and rockwork. I’d say 50 yard range maybe 60 at most. Ask local Shotcrete or gunite guys how much per yard. Likely 300 range, less for high volume builders, putting you around 18k range. For 46k I will physically drive my guys to your house and do it

 

[FROGMAN524]

For all the haters out there, I have not signed a fucking thing. I’m getting 3 to 5 bids per trade. Once engineering is back, these initial quotes can get cleaned up and won’t just be guesses.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Shotcrete quotes are way off. One is double the price?

The first guy has one review and no recommendations. He may do a great job but has nothing to show for it. His emailed bid was literally “I can do this shotcrete job for $23,000” with no other details to be had.

 

[Melloyellovector]

For all the haters out there, I have not signed a fucking thing. I’m getting 3 to 5 bids per trade. Once engineering is back, these initial quotes can get cleaned up and won’t just be guesses.

I’m not hating for sure, I think most are laughing at the crazy bid for shotcrete, laughing at subs audacity not at you in anyway.
the one you posted above is straight highway robbery, and him adding charges for each item when it’s already part of the overall yard cost is a joke.
139 per inlcudes spa, should be roughly 55 yards total, strip finish you only need on sunken bbq area only. The rbb back wall does not need, against dirt
base for rock work? Typically there is no “12” base ” it’s a footing around perimeter of rock and usually rock shot same time as pool, prob 8 yards ish
still id say your 65 yards max, even at his 330 per yard that’s 21,450. The other 24,550 is for his dodge ram w broken trans he needs to replace, lol

edit, the first one at 23,000 is in the ballpark of reality, don’t look at reviews or his under explained breakdown. Most shotcrete guys are workers not business men. Over half your lucky if they even speak English. A 23,000 bid and no hey it will be extra if …. You can reference email and say nope you show right here this is price. Here’s your check bye.

 

[FROGMAN524]

I’m not hating for sure, I think most are laughing at the crazy bid for shotcrete, laughing at subs audacity not at you in anyway.
the one you posted above is straight highway robbery, and him adding charges for each item when it’s already part of the overall yard cost is a joke.
139 per inlcudes spa, should be roughly 55 yards total, strip finish you only need on sunken bbq area only. The rbb back wall does not need against dirt
base for rock work? Typically there is no (12” base ) it’s a footimg around perimeter of rock and usually rock shot same time, prob 8 yards ish
still id say your 65 yards max, even at his 330 per yard that’s 21,450. The other 24,550 is for his dodge ram w broken trans he needs to replace, lol

So the Mexican dude at $23K may be spot on. Excavation at $11,500 said that’s for an easy dig, couldn’t even give me a number for hard dig I.e. caliche or granite or whatever except that it could jump another $10,000 and if I didn’t sign the CO, they’d just fill it in or leave and let me find someone else to complete their work. Arizona is so busy with work these assholes just throw out crazy statements and let you, the potential client, take it or not.

 

[Melloyellovector]

So the Mexican dude at $23K may be spot on. Excavation at $11,500 said that’s for an easy dig, couldn’t even give me a number for hard dig I.e. caliche or granite or whatever except that it could jump another $10,000 and if I didn’t sign the CO, they’d just fill it in or leave and let me find someone else to complete their work. Arizona is so busy with work these assholes just throw out crazy statements and let you, the potential client, take it or not.

Excavation should be 10k range give or take a thousand or so for area/state and dump location, in some areas dump fees per load can add thousands ( like Oc in CA )
As far as hard dig, if he has good equipment typically caliche isnt that hard, and usually no extra charges. If using a mini bobcat then yes it’s fukt. Granite, it’s usually an hourly rate 300+ per hour of breaking. Could be a couple hours could be a couple days. No way to know. No way to expect him or anyone to know what’s below ground. If you have neighbors with pools ask how their dig went, will give a good idea how yours will be. There is a chance of vw sized boulders, utilities, old septic tanks, buried cars, we’ve seen it all. Shit happens. It’s rare so don’t let that scare you, even if contracted you’d still be liable for unknowns

Also on dig price typically that doesn’t include demo of any concrete or grass, and only minimal grading. Those would be added to dig costs

 

[FROGMAN524]

Excavation should be 10k range give or take a thousand or so for area/state and dump location, in some areas dump fees per load can add thousands ( like Oc in CA )
As far as hard dig, if he has good equipment typically caliche isnt that hard, and usually no extra charges. If using a mini bobcat then yes it’s fukt. Granite, it’s usually an hourly rate 300+ per hour of breaking. Could be a couple hours could be a couple days. No way to know. No way to expect him or anyone to know what’s below ground. If you have neighbors with pools ask how their dig went, will give a good idea how yours will be. There is a chance of vw sized boulders, utilities, old septic tanks, buried cars, we’ve seen it all. Shit happens. It’s rare so don’t let that scare you, even if contracted you’d still be liable for unknowns

Also on dig price typically that doesn’t include demo of any concrete or grass, and only minimal grading. Those would be added to dig costs

This area is virgin ground and the other houses around here are so new they don’t have pools yet. I’ll get a couple more quotes to make sure we’re in the ballpark before moving forward.

 

[Melloyellovector]

This area is virgin ground and the other houses around here are so new they don’t have pools yet. I’ll get a couple more quotes to make sure we’re in the ballpark before moving forward.

So you’ll be the neighbor everyone else asks, lol

Note to remember: with out soils report and inspections, no sub will tell you. cut lots good, fill lots can be a problem. If they dig and you see color variation in walls make sure floor of pool is all in the same soil ( all fill or all native, no mixed conditions. Partial native soil and partial fill is a recipe for certain structure failure.

 

[c_land]

So the Mexican dude at $23K may be spot on. Excavation at $11,500 said that’s for an easy dig, couldn’t even give me a number for hard dig I.e. caliche or granite or whatever except that it could jump another $10,000 and if I didn’t sign the CO, they’d just fill it in or leave and let me find someone else to complete their work. Arizona is so busy with work these assholes just throw out crazy statements and let you, the potential client, take it or not.

Get the soils report from your builder and let the excavation guys review. The builder likely needed one to get your grading permit for the house.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Get the soils report from your builder and let the excavation guys review. The builder likely needed one to get your grading permit for the house.

Good idea, I will ask for that. The excavator said he would do a test hole to verify soil conditions, but I can tell you there is no fill here, it was a wild environment when we started. Also, I do not believe the soil is expansive as we did not require a post tension slab for that reason as I believe it is mostly a thin layer of top soil/overburden and then rock and caliche beneath.

 

[Instigator]

The Hard Dig is surely an unknown and usually charged by the hour. I rent and sell Heavy Equipment in Phx and some of my customers as we discussed are pool excavators. If you can tell me where the jobsite is located I can likely tell you what the excavator will encounter and if it will be considered a hard dig. I have rented a Drum cutter on a 35 Ton excavator to do a pool and they ground for over 1 month to do a pool so it can get very expensive. Rental for the machine and drum cutter were over $ 18,000.00 and that doesn't include the carbide teeth, fuel, or wages. They burned up several thousand dollars in teeth too.
Some rock is harder than others for sure. Granite, Caliche can be very hard but Basalt and Black Malpai rock are brutal.

 

[bonesfab]

An above ground dough boy pool and start enjoying it. More money for booze and food. Problems solved.

 

[FROGMAN524]

Thoughts on pool equipment pricing?

 

[Instigator]

Pentair all the way. Cartridge filter and infloor A&A cleaning system.

 

[Singleton]

@Melloyellovector - you’re going to need a large gift card to your favorite restaurant for all the advice and thoughts you are providing.

It is posts like yours that I enjoy RDP. Members helping members.