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stephenkatsea

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I well recall the DS incident. Quite different when running in a poker run with numerous vessels and their wakes nearby and in front of you.
 

4Waters

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As far as proof that a particular boats wake caused damage is very difficult. A couple of years ago someone posted an article about a homeowner that had surveillance video of a wake boat wake causing damage to his dock and they were able to get the license numbers from the video and the boat owner was held responsible.
 

Singleton

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I well recall the DS incident. Quite different when running in a poker run with numerous vessels and their wakes nearby and in front of you.
The grey DCB was 100% at fault IMO, he tried to cross the wake of the other DCB way too close.
The other accident (RIP), was equipment related and not driver related.
 

77charger

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“You are responsible for your wake” is a 100% correct statement. Has it ever been enforced locally in Havasu or anywhere in AZ? Perhaps Boat Cop could provide some info.
The thing was trying to prove it deal.IMO it should be obvious from video too but theres ways out i guess.
 

Cibolasam

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View attachment 989038

My responsibility starts before I put the Key in! ... And I can honestly say I'm probably safer operating a boat than over 95% of the boaters out there!

And there hasn't been ANY condition (even Class 5 rapids) that I haven't been able to handle! :rolleyes:
But you still blamed a Wakeboat??????? If you’re on Powell and you don’t navigate the tour boats wake correctly, do we ban tour boats???


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Blackmagic94

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The grey DCB was 100% at fault IMO, he tried to cross the wake of the other DCB way too close.
The other accident (RIP), was equipment related and not driver related.

What lake did that happen at
 

HGP3

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The grey DCB was 100% at fault IMO, he tried to cross the wake of the other DCB way too close.
The other accident (RIP), was equipment related and not driver related.
Really? I never did hear any conclusions to the second accident you mentioned. As sad as it is I feel like all boaters can learn from accidents and be better prepared.
 

MK1MOD0

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Here lies the issue. People read “ You are responsible for your wake” and believe they then have no responsibility for captaining their vessel safely. Completely untrue.
Two scenarios

1). Large boat throws large wake next to dock and causes damage. Obviously, captain of said boat is responsible.

2). Large boat is cruising lake throwing a large wake. ( that’s what they do). Ricky racer hits said wake at 100mph in his flat bottom And crashes. Not a court in the country will say it’s the cruisers fault. They will (and rightly so) say the flat bottom driver was traveling at an unsafe speed for the conditions. Nowhere does it say, it’s ok to travel at an unsafe speed for conditions, and blame others for accidents. Never hold up.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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Also, are you responsible for someone crossing your wake incorrectly or carelessly?


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Of course not. That is why this “wake responsibility” deal carries very little weight.

If you crash your boat from hitting some wake or combination of wakes, you were going too fast for given conditions.

Boating can be dangerous, shit happens. Yes it is tragic but STFU with the hand wringing. Getting the government involved will lead to nothing but diminished freedoms for everyone.
 
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LargeOrangeFont

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Here lies the issue. People read “ You are responsible for your wake” and believe they then have no responsibility for captaining their vessel safely. Completely untrue.
Two scenarios

1). Large boat throws large wake next to dock and causes damage. Obviously, captain of said boat is responsible.

2). Large boat is cruising lake throwing a large wake. ( that’s what they do). Ricky racer hits said wake at 100mph in his flat bottom And crashes. Not a court in the country will say it’s the cruisers fault. They will (and rightly so) say the flat bottom driver was traveling at an unsafe speed for the conditions. Nowhere does it say, it’s ok to travel at an unsafe speed for conditions, and blame others for accidents. Never hold up.
well said.
 

Dalton

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Here lies the issue. People read “ You are responsible for your wake” and believe they then have no responsibility for captaining their vessel safely. Completely untrue.
Two scenarios

1). Large boat throws large wake next to dock and causes damage. Obviously, captain of said boat is responsible.

2). Large boat is cruising lake throwing a large wake. ( that’s what they do). Ricky racer hits said wake at 100mph in his flat bottom And crashes. Not a court in the country will say it’s the cruisers fault. They will (and rightly so) say the flat bottom driver was traveling at an unsafe speed for the conditions. Nowhere does it say, it’s ok to travel at an unsafe speed for conditions, and blame others for accidents. Never hold up.
And is there a standard for how strong docks should be built? Maybe, but I’ve seen some just hanging on by a thread. Is there a limit for how big a boats wake should be? I think it’s something that could be regulated potentially but not worth it at all, too many things are already regulated that shouldn’t be.


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LargeOrangeFont

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I'm still buying none of this rumor that a wake took out an SL44.

RIP to the woman who didn't make it, best wishes to the husband fighting for his life. Can't imagine what he is going through right now.
Agreed 1000% the wake boat being the scary black semi-full automatic gun of the boating world was a great analogy.
 

Taboma

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Of course not. That is why this “wake responsibility deal carries very little weight.

If you crash your boat from hitting some wake or combination of wakes, you were going too fast for given conditions.

Boating can be dangerous, shit happens. Yes it is tragic but STFU with the hand wringing. Getting the government involved will lead to nothing but diminished freedoms for everyone.
Always thought of this while plowing into the Mission Bay San Diego harbor entrance after a day fishing, throwing a wake any wake surfer would lose his shit over, and there's ole Buddy just off to the side of me, fishing over by the jetty rocks in his 12' aluminum fishing boat, while I'm a bit busy dodging Hobie Cats and Jetskis. :oops:
I swear, some days coming in was like driving a bus down main street Disneyland on Memorial Day. :eek: I kept watch as best I could, as far as I know, nobody capsized, but ole Buddy did get tossed around a bit and I was always conflicted about running over a Hobie Cat, but I knew deep down I shouldn't. 😂
 

ONE-A-DAY

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Also, are you responsible for someone crossing your wake incorrectly or carelessly?


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Tres Martin was an expert witness in the Silver DCB blow over, 100% the operators fault, if you get that close to another wake in a cat and cross it close to parallel, the additional lift caused by the aeration from the lead boats props can cause that to happen. Operator clearly had not taken Tres class before thinking he knew how to drive a 160 mph boat.
 

RiverDave

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Wave tractors as you say are the AR-15s of boats. As long as they are legal, damage, pain and death will continue to happen. Noted.
Actually, yes rogue bullets kill people.
What does this have to do with anything relating to this thread?

WTF?

Secondly if you want to have that conversation I'll be happy too in another thread.

RD
 

throttle

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Tres Martin was an expert witness in the Silver DCB blow over, 100% the operators fault, if you get that close to another wake in a cat and cross it close to parallel, the additional lift caused by the aeration from the lead boats props can cause that to happen. Operator clearly had not taken Tres class before thinking he knew how to drive a 160 mph boat.
If I remember correctly, this particular incident was when DCB started offering the class to its customers when buying a boat.


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RiverDave

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Id imagine only if there were gopro videos mounted.

Do we know the outcome of the DCB lawsuit over the m35 that flipped at desert storm many years back?
The owner went crazy and his lawyers dropped him as a client. He started saying there was a conspiracy for certain members of the boating community to kill him etc..

RD
 

wallnutz

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The owner went crazy and his lawyers dropped him as a client. He started saying there was a conspiracy for certain members of the boating community to kill him etc..

RD
I heard something along those lines, thought it sounded crazy.
 

DWC

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I'm still buying none of this rumor that a wake took out an SL44.
Agreed 100%. That’s a big boat that shouldn’t have to worry about 99% of wakes out there. I get what RR is saying though. When we’re out I pay extra attention to PWC’s and boats wake surfing. Turns out when you build a boat to make big ass waves they’re pretty effective. I Don’t hate them for being on the water. Nothing wrong and everything right with families out together enjoying themselves. ( If i had a place on Parker not sure I’d feel the same )
 

JRS1939

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Tres Martin was an expert witness in the Silver DCB blow over, 100% the operators fault, if you get that close to another wake in a cat and cross it close to parallel, the additional lift caused by the aeration from the lead boats props can cause that to happen. Operator clearly had not taken Tres class before thinking he knew how to drive a 160 mph boat.
FWIW I do believe the owner/driver of this OL that crashed this week took the course with Tres and spent decent amount of time with him in this particular OL
 

RVR2SNO

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What does this have to do with anything relating to this thread?

WTF?

Secondly if you want to have that conversation I'll be happy too in another thread.

RD
My response was simply an analogy to Post #71 and a response to Post #73. It has everything to do with this thread. The wakeboard boat, as folks are quick to blame, in this case, is the scary black gun of boats. I don't think either of these should be regulated or made illegal.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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FWIW I do believe the owner/driver of this OL that crashed this week took the course with Tres and spent decent amount of time with him in this particular OL
Oh crap, I think this was the guy that sat next to me in the class, he had just bought a big OL and it looks just like it. I didnt connect the dots at first.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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Oh crap, I think this was the guy that sat next to me in the class, he had just bought a big OL and it looks just like it. I didnt connect the dots at first.
Tres just returned my call, it was him, damn. He said it looks like high speed crash, and that you cant turn that boat at high speeds, he said thats likely what happened. Impossible to say why he turned it, big wave, jet ski, who knows. Tres also tried to get him to buy LifeLines but they didn't think it was really necessary in such a big boat.
 

C08H18

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We went to Pleasant on Sat morning. First day of 95+ heat and lots of boats on the lake. The surf boats up the Fria R. arm were terrible. Sad to hear.
 
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LargeOrangeFont

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Tres also tried to get him to buy LifeLines but they didn't think it was really necessary in such a big boat.
And there it is. They took the class, they knew the risks, they made their choices.

Tragic deal, but personal freedom and personal choice is still what makes this country unlike any other in the world.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.
 
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ONE-A-DAY

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And there it is. They took the class, they knew the risks, they made their choices.

Tragic deal, but personal freedom and personal choice is still what makes this country unlike any other in the world.
I believe the class was required for him to get insurance from the conversations, the other guy with a 160 mph DCB that he had bought had the same issue. I am sure a payout will be a problem since he took the class if its determined did not follow the recommendations of the required class especially if he didnt have the lanyard on either. Again I dont want to speculate, the investigators will determine that but I am sure the insurance company will do their best to not pay out.
 

Duramax

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.
The OL has pretty aggressive steps in the hull, doesn't it? If you turn tight and it starts to spin, when it hooks up you are going for a ride. What a shame. Hop he pulls through.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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The OL has pretty aggressive steps in the hull, doesn't it? If you turn tight and it starts to spin, when it hooks up you are going for a ride. What a shame. Hop he pulls through.
I dont recall since I kind of tuned out to the vhull part, but there was a lengthy discussion on steps in the hull and what they accomplish in terms of speed because of aeration and freeing the boat up from the stiction of the water, but the drawback is the spin / roll part due to all of that aeration coming into the path of the props during turns.
 

Blackmagic94

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.


What about a cig like mine that is twin vee but no step. What do I need to know about this
 

Bowtiepower00

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What about a cig like mine that is twin vee but no step. What do I need to know about this
Your boat is a tank. Lol. It won’t do stuff like a newer OL will. Not to say a Tres Martin course isn’t a good idea for any performance boat owner. I know you have some decent power in that ride.

edit: Most of the evil handling characteristics are in the newer, lighter step hulls. If you had a Gladiator or early twin step TG you would have to be more careful- depending on power.
 

Bowtiepower00

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If you have questions about your boat, then it is probably a good idea to take the class.
I’m not downplaying the need for the class, for anyone. But I would talk to @Tank for advice before anyone, I believe they both have Cig Cafe Racers. By all accounts a pretty forgiving hull at just about any power level.
 

crzy2bealive

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.
Wow great post! I don’t have a cat or a twin engine boat, but always wondered some of things to consider while driving these kinds of boats.


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Pesky Varmint

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View attachment 989038

My responsibility starts before I put the Key in! ... And I can honestly say I'm probably safer operating a boat than over 95% of the boaters out there!

And there hasn't been ANY condition (even Class 5 rapids) that I haven't been able to handle! :rolleyes:
Nothing makes me more nervous than to share the water with someone who's real proud of their driving ability.

1617677087843.png
 

DWC

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.
Thank you
 

702sandman

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From the class I remember the turning issues, same thing as a cat with twins. If you leave the boat set in a turn for too long or make the turn too sharp the inboard engine eventually ends up in the low pressure system created by the hull. If that goes on for too long it eventually loses grip and the outboard engines spins the boat out if its a cat or rolls it over on a v hull. All of the turning at speed is done in increments, one turn from 12 to 9 or 3 on the wheel then back and forth from 9 to 6 or 3 to 6 with 3 second pauses in between to keep the prop from aerating. We did some testing in my boat and left it in a 80 mph or so turn for a bit and you can start to see the inboard tach start to climb, that is the first indicator that things are starting to go wrong, eventually bad stuff will happen.

In cats the boat usually stays up right but ejects the occupants because of violence of the spin, in a vhull it usually does a complete roll.

This what causes a fair amount of boats to wreck at the turn up river just south of the sandbar when going northg. Its a long sweeping turn, the river has a current flowing south so it lowers the speed when the aeration will happen and there are also some pretty significant swirling of the water in that section.
can this happen in a single engine cat say at 40-80 mph ? Just curious how turns affect a single engine cat
 

LargeOrangeFont

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can this happen in a single engine cat say at 40-80 mph ? Just curious how turns affect a single engine cat
Im gonna say yes, as a single engine Daytona spun in front of me in that spot last year, probably in the 70-80 MPH range.

I’m no boating expert, but I saw it coming seconds before with the attitude of the boat. You race off road and I’m sure have some semblance of vehicle/vessel control. A car won’t do a decreasing radius turn while continuing to apply throttle... it will spin out at some point. Neither will a cat hull boat, it will hook on a sponson and spin.
 

DWC

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Im gonna say yes, as a single engine Daytona spun in front of me in that spot last year, probably in the 70-80 MPH range.

I’m no boating expert, but I saw it coming seconds before with the attitude of the boat. You race off road and I’m sure have some semblance of vehicle/vessel control. A car won’t do a decreasing radius turn while continuing to apply throttle... it will spin out at some point. Neither will a cat hull boat, it will hook on a sponson and spin.
That spot didn’t bother me much in the Magic. It can be squirrelly as all hell at speed with peak water flows. Feels a little like driving on ice.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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Im gonna say yes, as a single engine Daytona spun in front of me in that spot last year, probably in the 70-80 MPH range.

I’m no boating expert, but I saw it coming seconds before with the attitude of the boat. You race off road and I’m sure have some semblance of vehicle/vessel control. A car won’t do a decreasing radius turn while continuing to apply throttle... it will spin out at some point. Neither will a cat hull boat, it will hook on a sponson and spin.
To some extent yes, although I am not 100 percent sure since everyone in the class had twins and that was what the subject matter focused on and the on water training. Turning a cat is a series of skids basically, you slide the rear, correct, pause, slide it again, repeat. I would have never done figure 8’s in my boat at 80 before this class. Not saying I’m going to go out and do this but it was pretty awesome to know that you can. It was pretty scary at first, But he teaches you techniques and how to spot trouble before it gets out hand. I keep all my notes and his materials in the boat and I do a quick review before I head out now.
 

ONE-A-DAY

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To some extent yes, although I am not 100 percent sure since everyone in the class had twins and that was what the subject matter focused on and the on water training. Turning a cat is a series of skids basically, you slide the rear, correct, pause, slide it again, repeat. I would have never done figure 8’s in my boat at 80 before this class. Not saying I’m going to go out and do this but it was pretty awesome to know that you can. It was pretty scary at first, But he teaches you techniques and how to spot trouble before it gets out hand. I keep all my notes and his materials in the boat and I do a quick review before I head out now.
We even practiced getting out of an inverted boat, I taught my wife how to do that as well.
 
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