WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

Bye bye Uber/Lyft

Uncle Dave

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Rideshare was a great gig in 2014, the drivers kept 80% of the fare. fast forward to today, Uber/Lyft keeps 50% of the fare and provides shitty liability insurance only.

Who says employees can't have flexible schedules? oh yeah, Uber/Lyft.

Follow the money. The drivers don't make shit and pay all vehicle expenses like commercial insurance (you can't do rideshare with a standard insurance policy)

California extending the deadline is B.S. but money talks in this state, the broke ass drivers don't stand a chance.
Whats your option on the business model?

Its not like Yellow cab drivers are killing it. The only one making money w that model is the cab company.
 
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TimeBandit

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The "business model" was always to increase ridership. The driver was never a priority at Uber/Lyft. Once they had millions of riders they raised prices and lowered pay to drivers..... because they could.

The whole "gig economy" is just a reflection of how many people are in need of jobs. The Uber/Lyft model just places all the expense on some poor driver who provides the ride. Not the first business built on exploiting workers, it won't be the last.
 

Uncle Dave

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The "business model" was always to increase ridership. The driver was never a priority at Uber/Lyft. Once they had millions of riders they raised prices and lowered pay to drivers..... because they could.

The whole "gig economy" is just a reflection of how many people are in need of jobs. The Uber/Lyft model just places all the expense on some poor driver who provides the ride. Not the first business built on exploiting workers, it won't be the last.
You made a few statements but didn't answer the question.

What would your choice in models be? the taxi model or the uber model?
 
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pronstar

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Lyft and Uber really launched too soon for their actual business model to take root:
They want autonomous cars, they don’t want drivers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Uncle Dave

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Lyft and Uber really launched too soon for their actual business model to take root:
They want autonomous cars, they don’t want drivers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
........actually they would rather pay you an even lower fee to book your autonomous car so they dont have to buy it at all. Once you start acquiring hardware the model needs to change.
 

TimeBandit

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You made a few statements but didn't answer the question.

What would your choice in models be? the taxi model or the uber model?
I thought the original Uber model worked well, Uber taking only 20% of the tab for "booking" the ride... with a per mile charge of $1.50 or more.

The customer got a clean car cheaper and faster than a cab, the driver made decent money to cover the substantial expenses.

What slowly happened was the per mile charge went way, way down, the price to the customer went way up, and somehow Uber/Lyft can't make a profit, and the driver ends up working for less than minimum wage after you factor in all expenses.

Taxi regulations came in to being to limit the number of cabs on the street, the limit for most large cities was too small, the suburbs got the shaft. Taxi drivers hung out at 5 star hotels looking for rides to the airport, and then taking rides from the airport where they make the most money.
 

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I thought the original Uber model worked well, Uber taking only 20% of the tab for "booking" the ride... with a per mile charge of $1.50 or more.

The customer got a clean car cheaper and faster than a cab, the driver made decent money to cover the substantial expenses.

What slowly happened was the per mile charge went way, way down, the price to the customer went way up, and somehow Uber/Lyft can't make a profit, and the driver ends up working for less than minimum wage after you factor in all expenses.

Taxi regulations came in to being to limit the number of cabs on the street, the limit for most large cities was too small, the suburbs got the shaft. Taxi drivers hung out at 5 star hotels looking for rides to the airport, and then taking rides from the airport where they make the most money.
Why wouldn’t an Uber/Lyft driver go get a different gig at some point then? I have never met an unhappy driver and I get that they dont’ want a bad review. So why not go do something else? They have all seemed happy controlling their availability and money.
 
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Uncle Dave

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I thought the original Uber model worked well, Uber taking only 20% of the tab for "booking" the ride... with a per mile charge of $1.50 or more.

The customer got a clean car cheaper and faster than a cab, the driver made decent money to cover the substantial expenses.

What slowly happened was the per mile charge went way, way down, the price to the customer went way up, and somehow Uber/Lyft can't make a profit, and the driver ends up working for less than minimum wage after you factor in all expenses.

Taxi regulations came in to being to limit the number of cabs on the street, the limit for most large cities was too small, the suburbs got the shaft. Taxi drivers hung out at 5 star hotels looking for rides to the airport, and then taking rides from the airport where they make the most money.
I understand what happened W uber.

Taxi regulations also came into being for bunch of reasons, controlling the cabs is one, another to make money for the city which priced medallions all kinds of completely unfair ways ensuring there were few to no competitors and that a few big companies control the market.

Both systems exploit the workers. The yellow cab driver has to pay to rent a car that he is building no equity in.
The über working stiff can deduct the mileage or actual costs.

Which is your choice to continue ?

You dont seem to want to answer my question but keep simply making statements vs which model you support.

Seem like you'd prefer the Uber guys completely out of work vs working at all and that you are pro big taxi company.

I remember the taxi wars in Amsterdam when the driver got absolutely fucked out their lives in savings and investments and the cab quality went down the golden shit tubes allowing Morons that cant find their way to a major hotel from the airport to now be cab drivers- Ive also watched the London system struggle with many of the same issues w ridesharing.

UD
 

TimeBandit

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Why wouldn’t an Uber/Lyft driver go get a different gig at some point then? I have never met an unhappy driver and I get that they dont’ want a bad review. So why not go do something else? They have all seemed happy controlling their availability and money.
I have heard many reasons people do Uber, sadly for many it's the best they can do.

When I take an Uber I tip well, in CASH to show my appreciation for taking my drunk ass home... it's the least I can do.
 

DWC

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I have heard many reasons people do Uber, sadly for many it's the best they can do.

When I take an Uber I tip well, in CASH to show my appreciation for taking my drunk ass home... it's the least I can do.
Sadly??! No company can stick around without making money. They started with a business model that attracted drivers to keep the growth. They changed it to figure out how to stay in business. California’s answer is to tax an unprofitable business to help the “people”. Genius. The out of work drivers will be better off.
6B38DDAE-BB0F-4484-8FBC-A3FCAEBE0E88.jpeg
 

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I have heard many reasons people do Uber, sadly for many it's the best they can do.

When I take an Uber I tip well, in CASH to show my appreciation for taking my drunk ass home... it's the least I can do.
I do the same, I appreciate what they do. Becoming an employee changes a lot of why they became a driver. Not to be a dick but it is a minimum wage type of job...but you get to make your own hours. Not many of those out there, I have met teachers, stay at home mom‘s, retired guys...just to start and they all decide when and what they do.

As an employee, you get a shift, no OT and no flexibility. Be careful what you ask for Is all I am trying to say.
 

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I do the same, I appreciate what they do. Becoming an employee changes a lot of why they became a driver. Not to be a dick but it is a minimum wage type of job...but you get to make your own hours. Not many of those out there, I have met teachers, stay at home mom‘s, retired guys...just to start and they all decide when and what they do.

As an employee, you get a shift, no OT and no flexibility. Be careful what you ask for Is all I am trying to say.

I just thought of this driver I met in the Bay area...so yes I am quoting myself.

He lived in Stockton, drove for Uber in the bay Thursday thru Monday and drove home Monday at some point. He lived in his car while in SFO but showered at a gym he paid a membership to and made more money than I do. All I could think was this is was what America was made of...people figuring out a way to make as much money they can and busting their ass. I gave him a $100 cash...I hope he is still killing it.
 

TimeBandit

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I do the same, I appreciate what they do. Becoming an employee changes a lot of why they became a driver. Not to be a dick but it is a minimum wage type of job...but you get to make your own hours. Not many of those out there, I have met teachers, stay at home mom‘s, retired guys...just to start and they all decide when and what they do.

As an employee, you get a shift, no OT and no flexibility. Be careful what you ask for Is all I am trying to say.
I'm an employee, or as a very successful friend calls her employees "a worker bee"

I get a good hourly wage, 401k with employer match, health care insurance, sick pay, vacation pay and overtime.

compared to when I was self employed 8 hours feels like part time work, and at my age health insurance is a grand a month.
 

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If drivers didn’t like the job there wouldn’t be any drivers Or the drivers would get paid really well Thus creating a demand to drive.

what I don’t care for is Ca saying what is or isn’t an Independent Contractor, they make new rules to better WHO?

Take the driver out of it. there are a lot of people in the state that fall into IC scope of work


UBER & Lyft will revamp the business model and come out with FUBER and Y-LYFT and start over The little guy still gets the shaft and it’s DRY!
 

paradise

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Rideshare was a great gig in 2014, the drivers kept 80% of the fare. fast forward to today, Uber/Lyft keeps 50% of the fare and provides shitty liability insurance only.

Who says employees can't have flexible schedules? oh yeah, Uber/Lyft.

Follow the money. The drivers don't make shit and pay all vehicle expenses like commercial insurance (you can't do rideshare with a standard insurance policy)

California extending the deadline is B.S. but money talks in this state, the broke ass drivers don't stand a chance.
Then don’t drive for them. Problem solved. It’s called capitalism.
 

woodagain

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Rideshare was a great gig in 2014, the drivers kept 80% of the fare. fast forward to today, Uber/Lyft keeps 50% of the fare and provides shitty liability insurance only.

Who says employees can't have flexible schedules? oh yeah, Uber/Lyft.

Follow the money. The drivers don't make shit and pay all vehicle expenses like commercial insurance (you can't do rideshare with a standard insurance policy)

California extending the deadline is B.S. but money talks in this state, the broke ass drivers don't stand a chance.
You missing the point. The drivers can refuse to work for Uber or Lyft. No one is forcing them to do this. Some people just don’t like being responsible for themselves.
Simple test-ask an employee to pick their health care coverage or You pick it for them
9 out of 10 will ask you to do it.
Same with taxes, disability insurance etc.
most people are waiting for someone else
To be responsible.
 

530RL

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The best solution is to deregulate taxis, not regulate Uber/Lyft.

And then let the consumer/marketplace decide which is the best option.
 

H20 Toie

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All i know is that uber has saved me tons of money over the years, i used to hire a car for the night when going out and that was expensive but always figured that was cheaper than a DUI, but now a bunch of them are no longer around.
Unfortunately this state is more interested in taxes this whole thing has always been about generating more revenue for the state
 

TimeBandit

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You missing the point. The drivers can refuse to work for Uber or Lyft. No one is forcing them to do this. Some people just don’t like being responsible for themselves.
Simple test-ask an employee to pick their health care coverage or You pick it for them
9 out of 10 will ask you to do it.
Same with taxes, disability insurance etc.
most people are waiting for someone else
To be responsible.
The problem was Uber/Lyft advertised for drivers saying "make great money" then reduced the per mile rate paid to drivers AFTER the drivers were locked into 4/5/6 year car loans... there are 3 sides to every story, until you have walked in their shoes a few thousand miles it's hard to grasp. Uber/Lyft have always failed the 1099 test, the recent rulings are just trying to enforce the existing labor laws.

So yes, they can quit... but how do they pay for the new car they do not need?
 

Ziggy

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The problem was Uber/Lyft advertised for drivers saying "make great money" then reduced the per mile rate paid to drivers AFTER the drivers were locked into 4/5/6 year car loans... there are 3 sides to every story, until you have walked in their shoes a few thousand miles it's hard to grasp. Uber/Lyft have always failed the 1099 test, the recent rulings are just trying to enforce the existing labor laws.

So yes, they can quit... but how do they pay for the new car they do not need?
My niece just gave back the car. They aren't new cars and there wasn't any upfront costs.
 

TimeBandit

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My niece just gave back the car. They aren't new cars and there wasn't any upfront costs.
What if they bought it from a Honda/Toyota/Nissan dealer and financed through that dealer?

Just give it back? they will destroy your credit and charge you 5-10,000 in depreciation for the high mileage car you are turning in.

More than meets the eye here, being a contractor vs. employee is just part of it. Being treated fairly by Uber/Lyft is the bigger game.
 

Uncle Dave

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Why would anyone buy a car for an at will job with no locked rate, contract, or guarantee?
Because a company says you'd make great money? Whats the definition of that anyway?

Rather than fight over how you are treated get a different job.



UD
 

Ziggy

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What if they bought it from a Honda/Toyota/Nissan dealer and financed through that dealer?

Just give it back? they will destroy your credit and charge you 5-10,000 in depreciation for the high mileage car you are turning in.

More than meets the eye here, being a contractor vs. employee is just part of it. Being treated fairly by Uber/Lyft is the bigger game.
People make choices that aren't always logical or financially sound. Uber/Lyft didn't make them do it.
 

Cobalt232

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The problem was Uber/Lyft advertised for drivers saying "make great money" then reduced the per mile rate paid to drivers AFTER the drivers were locked into 4/5/6 year car loans... there are 3 sides to every story, until you have walked in their shoes a few thousand miles it's hard to grasp. Uber/Lyft have always failed the 1099 test, the recent rulings are just trying to enforce the existing labor laws.

So yes, they can quit... but how do they pay for the new car they do not need?
How have they failed the 1099 test?

Drivers work when and where they want. They use their own equipment. Transportation is not UBER's actual business (they are a software platform). The drivers are unsupervised. The drivers don't need training. Drivers are paid by the job (ride). Drivers have significant investments in their equipment (car + phone). Drivers pay their own expenses. Drivers can make or lose money based on their skills. Drivers can make their services available to the general public or similar companies (Lyft, DoorDash, etc.) Drivers can work for several firms at the same time.

How will it work if they are employees? Will they be told to show up at 8:00 at LAX and they have to drive until 4:30? I understand the drivers need to be paid to make it worthwhile. How much is that? I don't know. If they are employees what will happen with surge pricing? That pricing model is meant as an incentive for drivers to go to areas of high demand.

UBER and LYFT are amazing. I've met some great drivers over the past few years - A sherpa from Nepal in San Francisco, An engineer in Mexico City, A driver in London who claims he knows every street by memory, A driver in Tokyo that had the cleanest older minivan I have ever seen and we had a great conversation even though we couldn't understand each other. I always ask the drivers the same questions about how they like driving for UBER. My wife gets annoyed, but it's interesting to hear their stories.

Except in large cities, I like having a rental car, but UBER has slowly changed my views on that. Sorry, I don't feel bad for the cab companies. With only a few exceptions (London, Japan) cabs are gross.
 
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TimeBandit

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How have they failed the 1099 test?
The "ABC" test, or who is an independent contractor:

Someone can only be considered an independent contractor if they meet three criteria:

1. they have control over how the work is done. Fail. Uber says where, when and what route you will drive as directed thru the app.

2. they’re doing work that’s not in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Fail. Uber's ONLY business is transportation, saying they are "just" a software company is like saying Atari is not in the video game business.

3. they’re running the same type of business on their own. Fail. It's not legal to be a "gypsy cab"

I'm not pro smelly cab, somehow this keeps getting dragged into the discussion.
 
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jet496

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All I know, putting the business aspect to the side, is Uber has saved a shitload of lives by taking drunks home, saved people a ton of money that would have went to attorney & court fees, not to mention jail time. I know my kids used the hell out of it in college &, I'm ashamed to say this, but back in the day I drove drunk a thousand times and if I had a cheap alternative, and taxis were not cheap, I would have taken the Ubers for a few bucks.

That being said I always wondered how they get away from the regulations that taxis have but I never even thought about the employee aspect. Unfortunately something will change & most likely this business model will disappear.
 

Uncle Dave

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The "ABC" test, or who is an independent contractor:

Someone can only be considered an independent contractor if they meet three criteria:

1. they have control over how the work is done. Fail. Uber says where, when and what route you will drive as directed thru the app.

2. they’re doing work that’s not in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Fail. Uber's ONLY business is transportation, saying they are "just" a software company is like saying Atari is not in the video game business.

3. they’re running the same type of business on their own. Fail. It's not legal to be a "gypsy cab"

I'm not pro smelly cab, somehow this keeps getting dragged into the discussion.
You only have two choices - you dont have a third.
Its clear you dont like the rideshares - so your choice is the other model.
Supporting closing down Uber/lyft means having the other model only.

1. Not quite - the driver picks a shift, then decides on which rides he takes that are presented in that shift. Uber drivers switch routes all the time and its not unusual to see them with two phone maps systems running the uber app and Waze/ google

2. Im not following this, you are talking about the hiring company vs the contractor, but the coffee is still kicking in.

3. but gyspsie cabs exist, people can legally do it with a chauffeurs license. A guy that invested in an Uber black level car may just decide to do it - you cant say they wouldnt work a few shifts a week as a driver - especially if they have no other job.

A Position that every driver went out and bought a prius because uber told them they would get rich ignores that a very large % already had a car and just used what they already had to make money.

You seem to support regulating Uber out of business over allowing people to choose this work or not. Im generally uncomfortably with other people deciding weather I, or anyone am better off taking vs not taking any job.

I think it would be great if there were some compromises made in the name of the workers, but the model doesn't make money as it is, so somethings got to give.

You haven't really proposed anything that would make it ok for you but just pointed out what you dont like about the rideshare model.




UD
 
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DWC

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Rather than fight over how you are treated get a different job.



UD
Come on UD, it’s easier to have someone else pay for you poor choices. Funny thing is that it’s their customers that will end up paying for everything. Uber isn’t making money so they’re not cutting into their profits to pay the benefits. Basic supply/demand. Prices will go up and fewer people will use the service. Fewer people will be employed. It’ll just fast track self-driving and put everyone out sooner.
 

Uncle Dave

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Come on UD, it’s easier to have someone else pay for you poor choices. Funny thing is that it’s their customers that will end up paying for everything. Uber isn’t making money so they’re not cutting into their profits to pay the benefits. Basic supply/demand. Prices will go up and fewer people will use the service. Fewer people will be employed. It’ll just fast track self-driving and put everyone out sooner.
Ib be happy with paying a bit more for Uber Lyft - If I felt good about where it goes.

The state treated all my companies with utter contempt until covid thinking there was limitless money to extort from business owners - newsflash - there isnt.

They re-catogorized after the fact 1099 workers to a ridiculous extent creating retro bills in some industries. Yeah we know it was fine last year and before that = but now its not ha ha!! sue us!!! (an actual conversation) yeah well you just killed the golden goose shitheads.

I'm all for fair share world, but in a world where government take more than it gives we should start by getting the people and creators enough before the states take you into poverty.
 
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woodagain

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The "ABC" test, or who is an independent contractor:

Someone can only be considered an independent contractor if they meet three criteria:

1. they have control over how the work is done. Fail. Uber says where, when and what route you will drive as directed thru the app.

2. they’re doing work that’s not in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Fail. Uber's ONLY business is transportation, saying they are "just" a software company is like saying Atari is not in the video game business.

3. they’re running the same type of business on their own. Fail. It's not legal to be a "gypsy cab"

I'm not pro smelly cab, somehow this keeps getting dragged into the discussion.
That’s not the 1099 test the the Commiefornia AB 5 test.
 
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Singleton

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The "ABC" test, or who is an independent contractor:

Someone can only be considered an independent contractor if they meet three criteria:

1. they have control over how the work is done. Fail. Uber says where, when and what route you will drive as directed thru the app.

2. they’re doing work that’s not in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Fail. Uber's ONLY business is transportation, saying they are "just" a software company is like saying Atari is not in the video game business.

3. they’re running the same type of business on their own. Fail. It's not legal to be a "gypsy cab"

I'm not pro smelly cab, somehow this keeps getting dragged into the discussion.
AB5 is not only impacting Uber/Lyft.
free lance writers for newspapers and magazines got impacted.
musicians got impacted
truck companies got an exception due to union influence

in the end, AB5 was a bad bill. Those that voted yes (larger % of Uber / Lyft drivers in NorCal) wanted the benefits. In the end the company will not operate with those additional costs and stop operations.
 

Cobalt232

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The "ABC" test, or who is an independent contractor:

Someone can only be considered an independent contractor if they meet three criteria:

1. they have control over how the work is done. Fail. Uber says where, when and what route you will drive as directed thru the app.

2. they’re doing work that’s not in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. Fail. Uber's ONLY business is transportation, saying they are "just" a software company is like saying Atari is not in the video game business.

3. they’re running the same type of business on their own. Fail. It's not legal to be a "gypsy cab"

I'm not pro smelly cab, somehow this keeps getting dragged into the discussion.
1. UBER isn't telling the drivers they have to take a specific route. They change it up all the time. UBER is simply showing a map.

2. UBER is NOT in the transportation business. It is a software platform that matches riders with drivers, or drivers with food deliveries. Sorry, I don't get the Atari analogy.

3. UBER drivers drive for LYFT, Doordash, etc. at the same time. Often they have many repeat customers that use them outside of the platforms. If that makes them a gypsy driver then so be it.
 

mash on it

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Seems like Uber and Lyft are owner operators. 1099 'em

Dan'l
 

RVR SWPR

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Correct
A California appeals court judge blocked an order requiring Uber and Lyft to classify drivers as employees, averting an expected shutdown of the ride-sharing services in California at midnight tonight. The court granted Uber and Lyft a temporary stay while their appeals process play out.
 
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