California Grid Today. Real time

[TCHB]

 

[TCHB]

Lots of plants are shut down not needed.. Yes they are getting paid to sit there in case needed. We may need the in July for 10 days.

 

[Flatsix66]

For reference, any idea how much of that comes from Hoover dam?

 

[Bigbore500r]

Somebody needs to turn the windmills on

 

[Nordie]

Yep, Nevada will keep supplying SoCal with power, because not in our backyard!!!!!!

 

[Singleton]

Yep, Nevada will keep supplying SoCal with power, because not in our backyard!!!!!!

You will keep supplying it to avoid all of us moving there

 

[Nordie]

You will keep supplying it to avoid all of us moving there

You guys are spreading like cancer , We have Los Raiders now...

Being honest, the in California we do it like this, I'm from Cali, that bullshit gets exhausting. If it's so fucking great go back. (I'm not saying you, but I hear it so much)

I've worked on quite a few solar fields here and the power can be pushed anywhere, but guess where most of it goes?

 

[Singleton]

You guys are spreading like cancer , We have Los Raiders now...

Being honest, the in California we do it like this, I'm from Cali, that bullshit gets exhausting. If it's so fucking great go back. (I'm not saying you, but I hear it so much)

I've worked on quite a few solar fields here and the power can be pushed anywhere, but guess where most of it goes?

My wife finally said she is open to moving. My conservative voting tax base is most likely heading to southern Utah. Wife loves to hike, and the proximity to outdoor activities is a requirement for our next home.

 

[TCHB]

Arizona and Nevada get most of the power. Smaller cities in California have contracts for Some of their energy needs.

 

[TCHB]

You guys are spreading like cancer , We have Los Raiders now...

Being honest, the in California we do it like this, I'm from Cali, that bullshit gets exhausting. If it's so fucking great go back. (I'm not saying you, but I hear it so much)

I've worked on quite a few solar fields here and the power can be pushed anywhere, but guess where most of it goes?

Always remember all power plants are built today after a utility puts out a RFP for a specific amount and type it needs. The days of building a merchant plant. Wit no long term PPA went out with Enron.

 

[TCHB]

As of now this minute here is the mix of generation.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Fuck your state. Should be 50% nuke min.

 

[JB in so cal]

My wife finally said she is open to moving. My conservative voting tax base is most likely heading to southern Utah. Wife loves to hike, and the proximity to outdoor activities is a requirement for our next home.

Our neighbor at Islander drives every weekend from Utah.

 

[evantwheeler]

Fuck your state. Should be 50% nuke min.

What percent of power in your state is nuclear?

 

[Singleton]

Our neighbor at Islander drives every weekend from Utah.

Which one? Have on seen any utah plates on our row.

 

[JB in so cal]

Which one? Have on seen any utah plates on our row.

#242 I think. Gold pusher MH. Has the black and white DCB. Chris i think. Use to have the big black dog, Tito.

 

[TCHB]

Fuck your state. Should be 50% nuke min.

No comment to ignorant comments.

 

[Nordie]

No comment to ignorant comments.

Honestly I agree with nuclear power, it is the most efficient, people hear uranium and automatically freak out.

I'll be looking forward to the generator plug in threads for the Santa Ana winds, and the rolling blackouts for not enough power in the grid this summer.

California constantly shoots themselves in the foot, not allowing easements for overhead power lines (then sues the power company). Brown pulled how many millions from the deforestation and maintenance for the underbrush, and the dead trees for the bark beetles? We can't cut that dead tree down because an off gray woodpecker likes to poke at it.

Where I'm headed with this, is clean energy is the dirtiest form of energy, but it's not in your backyard, so since you don't see it you think all is well.

I really don't understand this whole mindset, but what's currently happening is not okay.

I think @TCHB Is poking the bear, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

[Nordie]

Arizona and Nevada get most of the power. Smaller cities in California have contracts for Some of their energy needs.

One of the solar fields I was involved with, was designated for the LA County School district. The Land it's on is leased, California contractors built it, and the electricity is owned by a private company. The private company got the tax breaks from the Obama Era, and they build them for free, some of these fields are in the billions. Only to sell the power right back to you.

 

[monkeyswrench]

As of now this minute here is the mix of generation. View attachment 1116578

Of the renewables, I'm thinking that is a lot of solar? I don't know how much a wind turbine puts out, and I also don't know how many they have now in the state. How big is the drop after sundown? I would think commercial need would be less, but then more people at home watching TV (or on RDP).

 

[Shlbyntro]

As of now this minute here is the mix of generation. View attachment 1116578

just remember that "biomass" plants are considered a renewable energy source and they burn wood to generate electricity and are more destructive than fossil fuel plants but they are still "green". they make up a huge portion of the renewable pie slice on a nation wide scale

 

[Singleton]

#242 I think. Gold pusher MH. Has the black and white DCB. Chris i think. Use to have the big black dog, Tito.

Big white dog was Tito. Awesome dog!
I think they just relocated, since they posted the awning for sale a few days ago.

 

[hallett21]

Fuck your state. Should be 50% nuke min.

Grow your own food

 

[SBMech]

People see "renewable" and think solar, but that's not the truth. After hundred of billions in subsidies it's only like 8-10% of the input.

Like Shlbyntro said, most of these are "dirty" plants. Perception is a bitch. Ain't it fun to pay to build power plants and solar/wind farms then have these same fucknuts sell you back the power created by your own tax dollars....

The American consumer is the worlds largest unlimited piggy bank.

 

[TCHB]

Honestly I agree with nuclear power, it is the most efficient, people hear uranium and automatically freak out.

I'll be looking forward to the generator plug in threads for the Santa Ana winds, and the rolling blackouts for not enough power in the grid this summer.

California constantly shoots themselves in the foot, not allowing easements for overhead power lines (then sues the power company). Brown pulled how many millions from the deforestation and maintenance for the underbrush, and the dead trees for the bark beetles? We can't cut that dead tree down because an off gray woodpecker likes to poke at it.

Where I'm headed with this, is clean energy is the dirtiest form of energy, but it's not in your backyard, so since you don't see it you think all is well.

I really don't understand this whole mindset, but what's currently happening is not okay.

I think @TCHB Is poking the bear, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

[rivrrts429]

As of now this minute here is the mix of generation. View attachment 1116578

Yikes, how reliant we are on renewables is concerning during a heat wave. What’s that going to look like at night time? Solar don’t work without that fiery orange ball in the sky.

 

[evantwheeler]

Ain't it fun to pay to build power plants and solar/wind farms then have these same fucknuts sell you back the power created by your own tax dollars....

I just going to play devils advocate here. If tax payers pay for the capital expense of building the facility, who pays for it's operation maintenance and upgrades over time? I am sure the post commissioning expenses on said renewable facilities are a fraction of what it would be for a more traditional plant, but there are still costs, no?

 

[TCHB]

Nuclear build cost is about them times higher than conventional gas fired plants and 50 times more for O&M costs. Todays new power plants cycle up and down quickly and then shut down at night when not needed and restart up in the early morning. I am sure our smart electrical engineers will figure it out for the next 50 years. People do not understand the grid, power stations, peakers, dams and the PPA contracts that make this whole thing work. I spent 38 years in power world and it still made me think how complex the so called grid is. Did you know the power plants manage time by keeping 60 cycles, tying in 100 power plants at the same time.

 

[TCHB]

 

[Xring01]

Of the renewables, I'm thinking that is a lot of solar? I don't know how much a wind turbine puts out, and I also don't know how many they have now in the state. How big is the drop after sundown? I would think commercial need would be less, but then more people at home watching TV (or on RDP).

I am pretty sure that Solar exceeded Wind production across the US about 4-5 years ago.

PV Solar, drops to zero when the sun goes down.
Typically the wind dies down after the sunsets, and Wind Power drops to zero shortly after sunsets.. typically.
When you drive thru Palm Springs and see all the Wind Turbines…
The smaller one that are very old are 250kW, and the average large newer ones are 2.5mW.

There are newer Wind Farms in the US using the 3mW and a few larger wind turbines. A really good friend of mine the Sr. Electrical Engineer for Pattern Energy. I think they have built about 5 - 250-500mW wind facilitys in New Mexico area in the last 3 years. Another good friend of mine works for EDF, and they built some big facility in New Mexico also. That corridor has now run out of transmission capacity to get any addition renewable power, onto the grid. There will be several large transmission projects in NV/CO/UTAH/AZ/ID coming in the next 4-5 years. Without those expansions, its impossible to put more renewables onto the grid on large scale.

Offshore Wind, I recall seeing some prototype models at 10mW at the Wind Power Conference a few years ago.

There are other Solar facilitys that are not PV, that can produce power after dark for a few hours. Those are typically using mirrors to reflect heat to a central point, and using the heat created to heat up molten salt. In theory these are great facility’s because they can product power when the grid needs that power the most. Which is right after sunset, when all the workers get home and turn everything on. Google the Power Duck Curve, it will shed some light on peak energy demand. Which is why in most Time of Use rates, that 4-9pm timeframe is typically the most expensive power.

 

[Xring01]

View attachment 1116609

Where do you get this info from?

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

Honestly I agree with nuclear power, it is the most efficient, people hear uranium and automatically freak out.

I'll be looking forward to the generator plug in threads for the Santa Ana winds, and the rolling blackouts for not enough power in the grid this summer.

California constantly shoots themselves in the foot, not allowing easements for overhead power lines (then sues the power company). Brown pulled how many millions from the deforestation and maintenance for the underbrush, and the dead trees for the bark beetles? We can't cut that dead tree down because an off gray woodpecker likes to poke at it.

Where I'm headed with this, is clean energy is the dirtiest form of energy, but it's not in your backyard, so since you don't see it you think all is well.

I really don't understand this whole mindset, but what's currently happening is not okay.

I think @TCHB Is poking the bear, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

How about liquid metal cooled reactors? Used on ships and submarines, coming to a neighborhood near you. They've only had them since like 1957. I'm sure they've gotten better and resolved some of the accident issues. Spread them around and put them like substations.

 

[TCHB]

The California ISO WEB site. It was up full time in my office looking at the forward forecasts and price. The last thing I wanted was a unit trip on a 500 MW unit on a $1000 a MW day. My P&L would not look good!

 

[TCHB]

Now we are getting ready to go over peak andthe back down for the night. The night off peak is where the plan to recharge ECars.

 

[TCHB]

We sold most of our bio mass plants about 10 years ago. They were money losers!
This is normal day on the grid. When the fires start generation backs down because of shedding load on lines in the fire danger area.

 

[Ultra...Good]

We sold most of our bio mass plants about 10 years ago. They were money losers!
This is normal day on the grid. When the fires start generation backs down because of shedding load on lines in the fire danger area.

Question -- These graphs, charts, info you are posting, are these for the whole state or a certain area?

 

[Sleek-Jet]

I just going to play devils advocate here. If tax payers pay for the capital expense of building the facility, who pays for it's operation maintenance and upgrades over time? I am sure the post commissioning expenses on said renewable facilities are a fraction of what it would be for a more traditional plant, but there are still costs, no?

These costs are built into the PPA and the market offer prices. Capital and Operating budgets are all rolled up and calculated on a MWh basis.

 

[Skinny Tire AH]

Yikes, how reliant we are on renewables is concerning during a heat wave. What’s that going to look like at night time? Solar don’t work without that fiery orange ball in the sky.

Well aren’t you just a ray of sunshine.

 

[TCHB]

The utility SCE makes it money for its shareholders by Capital Expenditure. The CPUC sets the rate around 10%.. All other costs are a pas through to the rate payer including fuel. The independent power producers like AES have a PPA contract to supply MWs according to the PPA. Our PPA was 80 pages long.

 

[TCHB]

The utility SCE makes it money for its shareholders by Capital Expenditure. The CPUC sets the rate around 10%.. All other costs are a pas through to the rate payer including fuel. The independent power producers like AES have a PPA contract to supply MWs according to the PPA. Our PPA was 80 pages long.

The gas plants that sitting down not needed wii come into service during the hot summer months. Their capacity wii be around 15% for the year. Yes we pay them to sit down not needed. This is called a capacity contract.

 

[rivrrts429]

Well aren’t you just a ray of sunshine.

You sly little devil you

 

[rivrrts429]

Yikes, how reliant we are on renewables is concerning during a heat wave. What’s that going to look like at night time? Solar don’t work without that fiery orange ball in the sky.

He hasn’t quoted me yet to respond so maybe he missed my post lol

 

[Blackmagic94]

Nuclear build cost is about them times higher than conventional gas fired plants and 50 times more for O&M costs. Todays new power plants cycle up and down quickly and then shut down at night when not needed and restart up in the early morning. I am sure our smart electrical engineers will figure it out for the next 50 years. People do not understand the grid, power stations, peakers, dams and the PPA contracts that make this whole thing work. I spent 38 years in power world and it still made me think how complex the so called grid is. Did you know the power plants manage time by keeping 60 cycles, tying in 100 power plants at the same time.

So why do you not like nuclear then?



Maybe you should build more mirrors to boil water. Oh wait the cng boilers for cloudy days makes more mW then the mirrors lol.

 

[hallett21]

@TCHB id like to hear your thoughts as well as @Xring01 thoughts.

Hopefully it can be done without personal attacks but I’d like to hear your guy’s takes on where the CA, AZ, NV, etc grid is headed.

I get the impression you two have different opinions. As some one who deals with everything south of the meter I’d appreciate your guy’s input.

 

[hallett21]

I guess I’ll start. Los Angeles DWP pretty much never shuts off while SoCal Edison shuts off routinely. @TCHB @Xring01 can you walk us through why that is?

 

[Xring01]

@TCHB id like to hear your thoughts as well as @Xring01 thoughts.

Hopefully it can be done without personal attacks but I’d like to hear your guy’s takes on where the CA, AZ, NV, etc grid is headed.

I get the impression you two have different opinions. As some one who deals with everything south of the meter I’d appreciate your guy’s input.

I have posted my opinions repeatly…
System has to be designed to handle peak loads with a margin for emergencys and un expected maintenance.

When I say a margin… for arguements sake you expect a peak load of 50mW… then in my opinion the grid should be able to generate and transmit at least 65mW. But the specific margin is subject to debate… but a margin is required in my opinion.

I do not think the Ca or Tx grids have the generation or transmission capacitys to meet those requirements. Hell I posted a note about Texas yesterday I think. They didnt even have a 5% margin in May… whats going to happen in Aug….

In addition, restarting from major black outs is a key thing i have repeatly outlined regarding intertia to for the grid to restart. The fact we keep losing large base load power plants, creates more of a problem and less intertia, to restart.

Bottom line…. Ca is forcing all new homes to be electric. Major citys in Ca are forcing City Buildings to convert all the Nat Gas to Electric. Combine that with the more EVs hitting the grid… creates alot more demand. Meaning the peak load can increase if the users do not optimize there energy consumption. Thats why there are Time of Use rates, peak demand charges, demand response programs, emergency load reduction programs, incentives for deployment of energy storage devices, changes to net energy metering. All things to push costs to the consumer, so that its gets so expensive the consumer has no choice but to reduce the load. Ca politicians want expensive electricity and expensive gasoline… why to push the green agenda. To change the behavior of the consumer, whether they want to or not. But they are forced to because of the costs.

Yes, rooftop solar can solve some problems. Energy storage/batterys can solve some problems. But the theoy of utilizing the residential behind the meter assets and reverse flow that energy to the grid is something I do not think is good idea for lots of reasons. System isnt designed that way, severely ages the distribution assets creating massive expenses to the utility and it creates major safety concerns.

There is huge difference of peak loads in the middle spring time…and middle of Aug.

Lets take a look at the CA peak loads when vast majority of it hits triple digits and the AC load kicks in…
Both PG&E and SCE have peaked at 22,000mW -24,000mW each a few years ago, pending the data you look at…
Now consider
LADWP at 6000mW
SMUD at 5000mW
SDGE at 4000mW
IID at 900mW
Burbank, pasadena, glendale, anahiem, SVP, SF, TID, MID, Roseville, Banning, Azusa…. Lots of smaller Utilitys that are also adding to the overall peaks…

 

[Xring01]

I guess I’ll start. Los Angeles DWP pretty much never shuts off while SoCal Edison shuts off routinely. @TCHB @Xring01 can you walk us through why that is?

Thats due to PSPS… Public Safety Power Shutoffs…
The vast majority of LADWP grid is in major urban areas, where there is not the same threat of wildfires, as it is to SCE who has lots of rural lines that are in the desert than can create a fire… As I mentioned above… SCE grid is designed to support a minimum 22,000mW and LADWP is 6000ish mW from memory.

 

[hallett21]

Thats due to PSPS… Public Safety Power Shutoffs…
The vast majority of LADWP grid is in major urban areas, where there is not the same threat of wildfires, as it is to SCE who has lots of rural lines that are in the desert than can create a fire… As I mentioned above… SCE grid is designed to support a minimum 22,000mW and LADWP is 6000ish mW from memory.

That helps break it down.

On the flip side though there are a lot of residences/businesses that rely on DWP energy. Are you saying that they will be less effected vs So Cal Edison homes and businesses?
Just trying to paint a legitimate picture for CA and I guess specifically SoCal.

I’d love your take on NorCal as well.

 

[Xring01]

That helps break it down.

On the flip side though there are a lot of residences/businesses that rely on DWP energy. Are you saying that they will be less effected vs So Cal Edison homes and businesses?
Just trying to paint a legitimate picture for CA and I guess specifically SoCal.

I’d love your take on NorCal as well.

Why do PSPS events occur… TO PREVENT WILD FIRES.

Why does the utility shut the power down… Because they will be sued, if their power line or equipment failure is THOUGHT to have caused the fire. This is a stupid long story… with more lawsuits that go back probably 10 years ago when SDGE had some major fires near Julian.. Not getting in to that again.

So if you have a alot of resources/assets in the desert, near trees and brush… then you have a higher likelyhood of creating a wildfire.
SCE probably has 20x - 30x the amount of assets in those locations compared to LADWP… hence the reason why they have more PSPS events.

PG&E has it worse than SDGE & SCE, because in Nor Cal you have alot more trees near the power lines. Pine trees are the worst… especially in drought conditions.

So anyone that is a PG&E, SCE or SDGE customer, and you live in a rural area, you chances of having a PSPS event are astronomically higher than some one who lives in a track house in the middle of a large metropolitan area.

Those people who live in the rural areas can expect 2-3 day PSPS events when Santa Ana winds are blowing. And other factors come into that equation. Again, just go you to Utility’s website and search PSPS events they should have all the details on it.

Thats a key reason, why I was telling people in an earlier thread, its a good time to do maintenance on there generators to get ready for fire season, and due to some other articles summing up what I have been saying for awhile now.

 

[TCHB]

Yesterday was a typical day in the power world just like most companies. Capacity factors were low for Generation. This is the way it is about 320 days a year. When get high temperatures in the entire state for more than 4 days in a row the load goes up. The grid can handle it pretty easy as long as we do not have major forced outages of our larger power plants.