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Collings Foundation B-17 Down

rrrr

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Really a sad day for the great folks at the Collings Foundation. I've flown on Nine-O-Nine, as well as their B-24 Witchcraft and B-25 Tondelayo.

My flight on Nine-O-Nine was from Waco to Fort Worth Meacham, about a 45 minute ride. I was the only non-crew on the plane, so I was able to stand or sit at every station in the aircraft while in the air. It was a really cool experience, and I'm saddened that the aircraft is no more.

May those lost rest easy, and may the injured recover quickly.
 
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RiverDave

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This is heart breaking.. :(


Is this the same plane that was in Havasu awhile back?
 

spectras only

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That's terrible. I saw the B-17 [ shiny one with lady painted on ] from Arizona this summer here in Penticton, taking passengers. It might be the end of rides for people in these old birds.
 

RiverDave

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That's terrible. I saw the B-17 [ shiny one with lady painted on ] from Arizona this summer here in Penticton, taking passengers. It might be the end of rides for people in these old birds.
I hope that’s not true
 

Blackmagic94

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That's terrible. I saw the B-17 [ shiny one with lady painted on ] from Arizona this summer here in Penticton, taking passengers. It might be the end of rides for people in these old birds.

How did you come to that logic. The FAA has rules for Part 91. You either meet them or you don’t. Nothing to do with the year of production.
 

Dkahnjob

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I am not sure which one was in Havasu, there are (were) 2 B-17's that went on tour and sold rides.
The other on is owned by EAA (the Experimental Aircraft Association) and it's name is "Aluminum Overcast".
I flew on that plane a few years ago from Van Nuys to Fox Field. It was really cool, I got to go to each station
including the glass nose where the bombadier would sit.
 

Sleek-Jet

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Don't forget Sentimental Journey, owned by the CAF. It is based out of the Phoenix area.
 

Mandelon

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The FAA issued a ground stop for the airport, preventing planes from departing for Bradley.

"We can confirm that there was an accident involving a Collings Foundation World War II aircraft this morning at Bradley Airport," said airport spokeswoman Alisa Sisic. "We have an active fire and rescue operation underway. The airport is closed. We will issue further updates as information becomes available."

The Collings Foundation is a non-profit based in Massachusetts that flies vintage military aircraft.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with those who were on that flight and we will be forever grateful to the heroic efforts of the first responders at Bradley," said the Collings Foundation in a statement. "The Collings Foundation flight team is fully cooperating with officials to determine the cause of the crash of the B-17 Flying Fortress and will comment further when details become known."

The B-17 is a bomber known as the "Flying Fortress." The model's first flight was in 1935.

The National Transportation Safety Board is planning to send a team to the crash site to begin its investigation.

 

Tank

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That really sucks.

Boggles my mind that over 12,000 were built and only 10 (now 9) are still flying. Crazy.

Could you imagine being a gunner on one of these or the bombardier or pilot during WWII?? Balls of steel. "the greatest generation" indeed.
 

monkeyswrench

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Heard this on the radio...truly sad news. There is both the human impact with both death and injury, and the historical aspect as well. I've seen it in person, but never flown. Loosing the plane is like losing a veteran of the war. Another piece of history lost to time...
:(
 

rivrrts429

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How did you come to that logic. The FAA has rules for Part 91. You either meet them or you don’t. Nothing to do with the year of production.
Being able to acquire the appropriate insurance after these incidents likely gets more difficult from a cost perspective hence no more “paying” citizens.
 

Blackmagic94

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Being able to acquire the appropriate insurance after these incidents likely gets more difficult from a cost perspective hence no more “paying” citizens.

There is always someone who will offer insurance. The question is can you afford it.

my family uses Lords Of London for their float plane in Alaska because AOPA won’t insure float or bush planes in the region due to risk.
 

RiverDave

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There is always someone who will offer insurance. The question is can you afford it.

my family uses Lords Of London for their float plane in Alaska because AOPA won’t insure float or bush planes in the region due to risk.
Pretty sure they will insure anything for the right price. Someone told me a story about them insuring an NFL players hair.. lol
 
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BajaMike

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Just heard on news at least 5 persons dead.
 

spectras only

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Pretty sure they will inside anything for the right price. Someone told me a story about them insuring an NFL players hair.. lol
Remember Mariah Carey insuring her legs for a million dollar? That was way back, when the dollar was worth something. She probably upgraded her policy since.:D
 

rrrr

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I want to add something about how important the Collings Foundation is to keeping the memories of the past alive.

This happened during another visit of their bombers to Dallas Love Field. I was there to fly on their B-25, and while waiting, I was standing in front of Nine-O-Nine. A tall elderly man walked up, looked closely at the B-17, and said to me "The last time I was in a B-17, I left it in a parachute".

His name was Austin D. Rinne. He was assigned to the 546th Sqdn, 384th Bomb Group, Grafton Underwood, England, and the pilot of B-17G #42-31058 'Liberty Run'.

He and his squadron were attacking V-2 sites near the French coast on February 28, 1944 when his plane was hit by flak. The crew bailed out, and the man I was speaking to spent the rest of the war as a POW at Stalag Luft I. Other Americans at the camp included USAAF POW commander Hubert Zemke, Bob Hoover, and Frances Gabreski.

The camp was liberated by the Russians on May 1, 1945.

I was practically speechless while listening to this old warrior tell his tale. It's one of my favorite memories.

His obituary further describes the man:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/obi...ne-world-war-ii-pilot-survived-german-prison/

His ashes are interred at Arlington National Cemetery.

After he died, I contacted his son and emailed him photographs of his father I took that day, standing tall and erect in front of Nine-O-Nine.
 
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mjc

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I went for a flight in this plane a few years ago. It was one of the coolest things I have done.
 

monkeyswrench

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Some of the hot rod/ car guys I have coffee with flew in it a few years ago. I asked them what it was like. The response I liked most was from my friend Billy: "Kinda like an old hot rod, loud, hot and uncomfortable, but you feel like the coolest cat around"
It had spent a few days up here at Love Field, which is our local airport. The flight path for takeoff is over Embry Riddle, which is an aviation/flight school. Approach is over my home, or just a bit north. Hearing any of those planes usually gets me and my boys outside. Just hearing one bomber makes you wonder what 10 or 20 sounded like in formation, heading out during the war.
 

JB in so cal

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Collings usually flies the B24 and maybe a B25 and a Mustang along with the B17. So sad.
 

Blackmagic94

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Originally Posted By dlshady:
Just got off the phone with a friend who occasionally flys some of the Collings Foundation aircraft and he said the unofficial word right now among the other pilots is that Nine O Nine got filled with Jet A on accident. He also said that he had a hard time understanding how that could happen because they're always so paranoid about letting unknown people around the aircraft unless possibly the fuel truck got filled with the wrong stuff. Still seems like they would have smelled the difference, but it's easy to armchair quarterback in a situation like this.

If that turns out to be what happened, I'd hate to be the guy who had to live with that one on my conscience for the rest of my life.
 

Blackmagic94

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A1EA8A70-2D02-4550-B156-323FD29C658C.jpeg
A4F28ED3-F254-46BA-A526-6633680BF070.jpeg
If the fuel guy really did fill it with jetA then i hope he washes his mouth with a .45 tonight




God speed to those on the Nine O Nine
 

JB in so cal

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Originally Posted By dlshady:
Just got off the phone with a friend who occasionally flys some of the Collings Foundation aircraft and he said the unofficial word right now among the other pilots is that Nine O Nine got filled with Jet A on accident. He also said that he had a hard time understanding how that could happen because they're always so paranoid about letting unknown people around the aircraft unless possibly the fuel truck got filled with the wrong stuff. Still seems like they would have smelled the difference, but it's easy to armchair quarterback in a situation like this.

If that turns out to be what happened, I'd hate to be the guy who had to live with that one on my conscience for the rest of my life.
I would think that would be apparent at start up and run up/taxi. I hope that's not the case.q
 

Blackmagic94

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I would think that would be apparent at start up and run up/taxi. I hope that's not the case.q
I thought about that but



They could have had plenty of 100LL in the lines to run just long enough. Also depending on how low the tanks were it could be mixed contamination and not just straight jet A
 

Dkahnjob

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Originally Posted By dlshady:
Just got off the phone with a friend who occasionally flys some of the Collings Foundation aircraft and he said the unofficial word right now among the other pilots is that Nine O Nine got filled with Jet A on accident. He also said that he had a hard time understanding how that could happen because they're always so paranoid about letting unknown people around the aircraft unless possibly the fuel truck got filled with the wrong stuff. Still seems like they would have smelled the difference, but it's easy to armchair quarterback in a situation like this.

If that turns out to be what happened, I'd hate to be the guy who had to live with that one on my conscience for the rest of my life.
That was my first thought.
Wow. So sad.
 

rrrr

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I can't imagine the fuel system having enough volume to start, taxi, take off, and fly for several minutes on just the avgas in the lines. Seems impossible, those Wright R-1820s burn a lot of fuel on takeoff. Plus, if that had happened, all four engines would have quit almost simultaneously, which was not something witnesses saw.

They radioed there were problems or a fire on #4, the right outboard engine. If the prop failed to feather and was windmilling, that's a huge amount of assymetric drag. That situation brought down more than a few B-17s between 1942 and 1945.

As I mentioned above, I flew in Nine-0-Nine when there was no one on board but me and the pilots, so I was able to wander around at will.

I have some photos taken from the open radio room hatch while we were turning base to Fort Worth Meacham. I was standing on some fuselage longerons and framing, with my body halfway out in the wind. They're cool shots. I'll see if I can find them.
 
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72Hondo

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If the fuel guy really did fill it with jetA then i hope he washes his mouth with a .45 tonight

God speed to those on the Nine O Nine
That has to be the dumbest thing I have read to date. You obviously have not worked in the industry and have zero knowledge of it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Hallett Dave

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I always wanted to fly on a big war bird.
When I was about 6 years old I would hang out with my dad at Good Fellow AFB.
He was a B-25 crew chief. I would ride with him in a follow me truck when the planes would land.
Many times a crew member would exit the plane and ask my dad if I could get onboard and to some pattern work.
That to me at a young was very exciting. :)
 

Shlbyntro

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That's a shame. I occasionally see "Yellow Rose" a B-24 Liberator out of San Antonio flying over my neck of the woods and a good friend of mines family is big into the warbird community.

A true loss of life and history.
 

GRADS

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This thing has flown over our house on the way to Folsom Lake the last couple summers. Sad. It was always low and loud.
 

Blackmagic94

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Sleek-Jet

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Saying someone should eat a bullet is pretty stupid, sorry.

Especially based on internet rumors. And if it was misfueling you have no idea why it happened. Could be contaminated fuel from the farm or the truck or any number of things.

So let's cool it on the social justice front and let's find out exactly what happened.
 

Moneypit

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rrrr, The "like" button is limited, so I will add here another dozen or so likes ..
Your very carefully crafted comments here are greatly appreciated. To relate to your first hand experiences on these "old Warbirds" must be hard at a time like this.. Please know that your comments seem to be Honoring those that lost their lives, as well as Honoring the plane in all it's glory. Both are a real tragedy.. Those planes, and other similar war birds, played such a huge role in the Victory America and her allies were able to accomplish in the Great War, WWII... From the assembly lines "manned" by the likes of "Rosie the Riveter" and the men that were to old to join up, (My Father worked at the Vultee Aircraft Plant in Pennsylvania, installing electronic equipment) to the women that flew them into service areas, and of course the Pilots and crews that risked their very lives daily in missions, many that were considered suicide missions ... The flyer you spoke to added perspective, and you added his story to the "overall history" of that hero of an airplane.. The old war movies try to convey how it was, but fall short of real history, and the thousands of men whose last flight was one way...
Again, thank you for your input in a terrible tragedy. I'd like to say you have made it easier to accept, but we both know I'd be lying...
RIP, those that lost their lives, and know that each and every rivet in the plane had a story to tell...
Ray..
 

Cobalt232

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I can't imagine the fuel system having enough volume to start, taxi, take off, and fly for several minutes on just the avgas in the lines. Seems impossible, those Wright R-1820s burn a lot of fuel on takeoff. Plus, if that had happened, all four engines would have quit almost simultaneously, which was not something witnesses saw.

They radioed there were problems or a fire on #4, the right outboard engine. If the prop failed to feather and was windmilling, that's a huge amount of assymetric drag. That situation brought down more than a few B-17s between 1942 and 1945.

As I mentioned above, I flew in Nine-0-Nine when there was no one on board but me and the pilots, so I was able to wander around at will.

I have some photos taken from the open radio room hatch while we were turning base to Fort Worth Meacham. I was standing on some fuselage longerons and framing, with my body halfway out in the wind. They're cool shots. I'll see if I can find them.
Apparently, it did touchdown on 06 after the left downwind to 06, but ended up far right into the deicing area near customs. Does the B-17 have enough rudder if an outboard failed to feather? Hope this accident doesn't hinder similar flights. I am assuming these are part 135 operations?
 

rrrr

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They're Part 91. Someone told me they saw a photo of the rudder, and maximum left trim had been rolled in.

From all I've read about the war and B-17s (which probably totals over 300 books) an unfeathered windmilling prop on an outboard engine causes a huge amount of drag, it certainly could have exceeded the available rudder authority.
 

Blackmagic94

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I
They're Part 91. Someone told me they saw a photo of the rudder, and maximum left trim had been rolled in.

From all I've read about the war and B-17s (which probably totals over 300 books) an unfeathered windmilling prop on an outboard engine causes a huge amount of drag, it certainly could have exceeded the available rudder authority.
i heard it was coming in on only 1 engine with 3 out.
 

rrrr

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rrrr, The "like" button is limited, so I will add here another dozen or so likes ..
Your very carefully crafted comments here are greatly appreciated. To relate to your first hand experiences on these "old Warbirds" must be hard at a time like this.. Please know that your comments seem to be Honoring those that lost their lives, as well as Honoring the plane in all it's glory. Both are a real tragedy.. Those planes, and other similar war birds, played such a huge role in the Victory America and her allies were able to accomplish in the Great War, WWII... From the assembly lines "manned" by the likes of "Rosie the Riveter" and the men that were to old to join up, (My Father worked at the Vultee Aircraft Plant in Pennsylvania, installing electronic equipment) to the women that flew them into service areas, and of course the Pilots and crews that risked their very lives daily in missions, many that were considered suicide missions ... The flyer you spoke to added perspective, and you added his story to the "overall history" of that hero of an airplane.. The old war movies try to convey how it was, but fall short of real history, and the thousands of men whose last flight was one way...
Again, thank you for your input in a terrible tragedy. I'd like to say you have made it easier to accept, but we both know I'd be lying...
RIP, those that lost their lives, and know that each and every rivet in the plane had a story to tell...
Ray..
Thank you, Ray. Meeting Mr. Rinne and hearing his story was indeed an honor. There are few of his compatriots left to tell us what it was like to run through murderous flak or storm the beach of a small Pacific island under fire. There are just three survivors of the USS Arizona still living.

I actively sought out those men before they were gone, and as a result, I have in my memories a direct connection to the young men that won World War II. I'm fortunate.
 

rrrr

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I have discovered the flight wasn't Part 91, but flying under a special federal exemption that allows vintage historical aircraft to carry passengers and accept donations.

It's called the Living History Flight Experience.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2012/05/22/2012-12383/living-history-flight-experience-lhfe-exemptions-for-passenger-carrying-operations-conducted-for

And I want to add the maintenance programs for all of the Collings Foundation's aircraft is a professionally created and supervised operation. They take the responsibility of carrying passengers very seriously. During winter months each aircraft undergoes rigorous inspection.
 

RiverDave

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I would think that would be apparent at start up and run up/taxi. I hope that's not the case.q
What if it had half tanks and they topped it off? How does that play out? I’d think the fuel on the bottom would burn off first before it started mixing enough to kill it.

That said I don’t think that’s what happened, but am pointing out there are scenarios where a plane could get to take off and then have fuel problems..


When I was a kid we were down in Mexico on a fishing trip with a bunch of planes. One twin engine plane got some bad fuel and it shit one of the engines off on take off, it crashed but nobody was seriously hurt.
 

Dkahnjob

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In about 1994 at the Watsonville fly in (Northern CA) the refinery messed up and got some diesel or jet fuel in one of the transfer pipes and it contaminated a lot of fuel.
Many airplanes that fuelled up at that flyin had engine failures and there were some successful landing and some were not. Several people died as a result.
Chevron bought everyone a new engine that was involved in that incident, whether they had a failure or not. https://www.apnews.com/0518ff27ef85b1443cbdf25ba1f24581
 
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