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cruiser transmissions

wrighton

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First of all I wanted to thank precison craft marine for the information on transmissions and set ups. I felt they went well and above talking to a first time caller asking for information. I see threads start all the time on transmissions for boats. Some asking thoughts, reverse use, ect. And I will offer my own thoughts on what I have been learning along the way.

I grew up with the expeirence with an in and out box small flatbottom v drive. And never even though of transmissions being installed or needed, Heck at one point for a couple of years it was stuck in gear. Turned the key and went never missing a beat

There is the Turbo 400: I see most ski race and nicely rigged cruisers set up with these. I have been told they handle the power. some options on setting up the valve bodies with park and reverse options??? Low gear crusing around docks, high speed for top end. lower gears for pulling up cruisers.

Velvet Drive: Forward Nuetral Reverse set up: When built right I have been told they are at their limits at about 500 HP.

Paragon Transmission: Similar to the Velvet:

Borg Warner:

My delima: My current boat is a sanger mini day cruiser, it came very nicely rigged with a 10 degree casale and a paragon transmission. It had a mild 427 blower motor. I bought it mainly for I have a family, wanted an old school boat, and missed the flatty. Waiting for the kids to get a little older and drag them around on a ski rope.

I have since needed an engine the last two years and in the process of having a blower motor built, it will be well above the HP rating of the transmission. Now mind you I never punch it out of the hole as I do not feel the need to race it, although I have rolled in to it occasionally.

I feel that if I refresh the paragon with Heavy duty stuff it will live just find. But I would like to ask if anyone out there has other expeirences. Precision Craft says I will not be too far off on going the 4oo route, I am just not looking forward to changing drive line, rigging, uphostry, blah, blah. But if its the safe thing to do than what choice do I have?

So thank you for those who have read this ramble and please add to what you know about cruiser transmissions
 

djunkie

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Bump this thread tomorrow and I'll give you my opinion on then from my experience. I have a turbo 400 in my Schiada and love it.
 

rivermobster

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Bump this thread tomorrow and I'll give you my opinion on then from my experience. I have a turbo 400 in my Schiada and love it.

Bump.

(dj's prolly not awake yet, but jus in case) :cool:
 

waterhorse

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I have a '78 Nordic 20ft cruiser w/ a mild 454 and a T-400. Absolutley a great package. My T-400 has a manual override valve body, so what ever gear is selected that's what it's in, works great. As you have said 1st and Rev. are for slow maneuvering at the dock, 2nd and 3rd for pulling skiers and normal driving. I feel it adds value to the boat and is much easier to operate. Even though (my experience) most folks have never driven or even heard of a trans in a boat. Whenever someone drives the boat I have to remind them to shift. Hope this helps.
FYI, my trans is from Art Carr w/ a marine spline drive, so no torque converter is used.

Greg
 

wrighton

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Got up about half an hour ago. :skull


In that case good afernoon to you sir, :D

Researching some more: Companies like BAM and Hubert sure post some big numbers from similar type velvet drives and such. Is it because of the Graphite Clutches and how many of them they use??
 

djunkie

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Ok heres my opinion on cruiser transmissions. Now keep in mind I've only driven ones with a turbo 400 and a Velvet drive. The flatties don't count.
Velvet drives are the shit IMO. They handle a bunch of power. Very simple to use, and reverse is 1/1 just like the forward gear so they back up a lot better. Although they still only go one direction in reverse. :rolleyes:

But if I had anything more than a stock like motor than I'd go with the turbo 400. Especially if its a forced induction motor. Having all the 3 forward gears make the idling around docks a whole lot more manageable. You can shift it between 1st and 2nd and it makes the boat very controllable in tight spaces. Reverse sucks though. But it will go backwards. Just takes some practice. Using 2nd to get on plane and shifting to 3rd when the boat starts to roll over really helps if your running a huge gear in the v-drive. Helps the boat jump right up on plane. I vote for the 400. Mostly cause it sounds so cool hearing a boat shift gears. :skull
 
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Blown Hallett

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I have a T400 in my 19' Hallett ski race thing with a blown 480" BBC. I really like it It will last forever and I too like the sound and feel of it shifting !!!! My choice.

Mike:cool::cool::cool:
 

1homeblown

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Not mine but I saw a bitchin polished shorty powerglide by Art Carr on ebay. I have the same thing going into my flatty. If you wanna look, its item #110647635317. :thumbsup

It's nice and pretty tho!! :boobeyes:
 

wrighton

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DJ Junkie, when you say Velvet Drive will handle Big Power, what is the know big power. I have herd 500 and your pushing it. Any other guesstimates or facts for hight ratings?
 

djunkie

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DJ Junkie, when you say Velvet Drive will handle Big Power, what is the know big power. I have herd 500 and your pushing it. Any other guesstimates or facts for hight ratings?

Well, maybe not huge power. Big power to me is 500hp. :D Anything more the 400 is probably a better idea. Drivability wise for a cruiser the velvet drive is pretty nice.
 

obnoxious001

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First of all I wanted to thank precison craft marine for the information on transmissions and set ups. I felt they went well and above talking to a first time caller asking for information. I see threads start all the time on transmissions for boats. Some asking thoughts, reverse use, ect. And I will offer my own thoughts on what I have been learning along the way.

I grew up with the expeirence with an in and out box small flatbottom v drive. And never even though of transmissions being installed or needed, Heck at one point for a couple of years it was stuck in gear. Turned the key and went never missing a beat

There is the Turbo 400: I see most ski race and nicely rigged cruisers set up with these. I have been told they handle the power. some options on setting up the valve bodies with park and reverse options??? Low gear crusing around docks, high speed for top end. lower gears for pulling up cruisers.

Velvet Drive: Forward Nuetral Reverse set up: When built right I have been told they are at their limits at about 500 HP.

Paragon Transmission: Similar to the Velvet:

Borg Warner:

My delima: My current boat is a sanger mini day cruiser, it came very nicely rigged with a 10 degree casale and a paragon transmission. It had a mild 427 blower motor. I bought it mainly for I have a family, wanted an old school boat, and missed the flatty. Waiting for the kids to get a little older and drag them around on a ski rope.

I have since needed an engine the last two years and in the process of having a blower motor built, it will be well above the HP rating of the transmission. Now mind you I never punch it out of the hole as I do not feel the need to race it, although I have rolled in to it occasionally.

I feel that if I refresh the paragon with Heavy duty stuff it will live just find. But I would like to ask if anyone out there has other expeirences. Precision Craft says I will not be too far off on going the 4oo route, I am just not looking forward to changing drive line, rigging, uphostry, blah, blah. But if its the safe thing to do than what choice do I have?

So thank you for those who have read this ramble and please add to what you know about cruiser transmissions

Brian

Any "performance" boat with a "performance" engine that I have ever been around uses a turbo 400 trans.

I don't know that just coming out of the hole is the only thing that will damage a trans rated at 500 HP, since the maximum horsepower is not achieved until it gets up into higher rpm.

I can't honestly tell you if your Paragon will survive if you run an 800 HP plus engine through it, even if you babied it up on plane. I do know it's another box of money to get a proper turbo 400 trans, spline drive, and drive plate.
 

wrighton

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Brian

Any "performance" boat with a "performance" engine that I have ever been around uses a turbo 400 trans.

I don't know that just coming out of the hole is the only thing that will damage a trans rated at 500 HP, since the maximum horsepower is not achieved until it gets up into higher rpm.

I can't honestly tell you if your Paragon will survive if you run an 800 HP plus engine through it, even if you babied it up on plane. I do know it's another box of money to get a proper turbo 400 trans, spline drive, and drive plate.

Good thing I am only building a lake boat:D My box of money is getting a little lighter anyone know where to find one?

I have a tranny that came out of a 69 camaro I have to look at the pan again to see if it is a 350 or 400. It has stamps on the spline shaft plate 8626 or 8628 then OD15 under that. Any transmission guys know what that is?
 

Schiada Time

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I have an Art Carr prepped Turbo 400 in my 22 Schiada and it works great. It is set up with one of his spline drives with the torque converter removed. It is cool to shift gears and have the MANUAL control of the engines powerband and RPM range. It backs up for shit but that's a v-drive anyway. Use 1st around the marina and click it in 2nd for taking off and hit 3rd for cruising. You can even pull small kids who don't want to go fast in 2nd gear. A Turbo 400 is highly recommended.
 

steveo143

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Where are you located? I have an extra T 400 available. I have 3 boats that all have T 400's in them, only way to go. It must have a manual valve body and a 'reversed' shift pattern. Do not have PCM install a trans in your boat, pm me for details, don't want to discuss on a public forum. You will spend more money rebuilding and beefing up a Paragon than you will on a T400. You don't need an expensive Art Carr T400 either. What model boat is this for?
 

Schiada Time

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Reverse Shift Pattern is key for safety so when you pull the gears you are pulling AWAY from reverse. Turbo 400 is the only way to go.
 

dave29

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I had a 21 Schiada RC with a 1000hp teague motor in it. Ran a 400. When I played around with other boats i'd hammer it in second gear and hit third gear as quickly as I could. Talk about jumping out of the water!
No problems at all during my ownership.
 

77'Mandella

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I know nobody here know's me from adam, but I've had the same velvet in my cruiser for 35+ years with motors ranging between 500-600hp and never missed a beat. Just changed the fluid, never torn down. I've ran the velvet hard(no racing) between 6000-7000rpm for a few min at a time a few weekends a year. The velvet is cheap and reliable. The T400 is the way to go for the big HP and good race reliability from what everyone tells me.

picture.php
 
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wrighton

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Thanks for the reply guys. Just got back from work, started at 5:30 this morning:swear

Stevo thanks will get PM going tommorow. I am North of Seattle, but Motor is being built south and debating on finish rigging up here or down there. Thanks, Brian
 

CampbellCarl

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Not trying to move Steve outta a sale on his T400...........

Also consider the 72 series Velvet-drive. Do a little research and if ya want to, PM me for an available 72 Series Velvet.

CC
 

steveo143

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No worries Carl, not even tryin' to sell one. The Paragon is no longer made and are more expensive than a T-400 to work on. The velvet drives are ok but the 2nd to 3rd shift in a T-400 is awesome.
 

wrighton

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I am leaning on wanting to go 400 route. And I aware of 71 and 72 models. However, not aware of major differences?

I treat my cruiser like my flatbottom and push off and paddle instead of relying on reverse. And not sure if I ever thought twice about the shifting aspect. It seemed to get out of the hole just fine and was friendly idiling and using forward and nuetral getting out of dock area. My motors have always seemed to idle on the low side as well.
 

wrighton

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Not trying to move Steve outta a sale on his T400...........

Also consider the 72 series Velvet-drive. Do a little research and if ya want to, PM me for an available 72 Series Velvet.

CC

thank you Carl, However I did a little research and it appears the 72 series is the stouter of the series being rated at about 550HP.

Back to my original post, I will be well above the HP ratings.
 

jetboatperformance

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Just like to share a few we've done of these over the past few years all with Gm transmissions , three were built by Hughes transmissions in AZ (T350 and a T400 ) and one (700r4) by a company called RPM supplied by the customer for the Howard , The Turbos were installed in my Schiada flat and a Schiada river cruiser and a Campbell 21 that we converter from an IO to a V-drive the GM< Turbos had reverse manual shift valve bodys and ran billet Sprint car type converter eliminaters and the 700r4 had extensive mods to make it work , on my Flat we used a TCI shifter which Josh "reprogramed" by making a new detent assembly to handle the gear change controls , on all we left Park in (prop changes) but created a positive "lockouts" to avoid park engagement without several mechanical steps. Althogh we were told the trans might actually "scrub off" some HP we saw no appreciable loss in any of these installs Al the install clearly took some engineering but all were positive The 700r4 lost 4th gear after a few hours but RPM fixed it and made some oiling mods to prevent it in the future . In my boat low gear basically useless but effective for the 5 zone (wild cam) 2nd was a mad hole shot and reverse was amazing compared to useing a paddle Also had Great success with the little BW Velvet drives as well however Tom

DSC00459.jpg

P1010025-1.jpg

MVC-043S.jpg

Howard Cruiser 502 EFI 700r4
MVC-398S.jpg

cid_48019332-8382-408F-887C-BF625FC.jpg

We re-rigged this V-drive Cambell,it was a SBF ford IO before its Sex Change
Matt_0007.jpg

MVC-038S.jpg

Howard cruiser 400T
MVC-601S.jpg
 
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Racey

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If you don't need 2 speeds to get the boat on plane, most likely if you have gears that are around or lower than ~30% and 600+hp then i would recommend the velvet drive, the reverse is way better, they actually stop the shaft from spinning in neutral (turbo 400's still spin the shaft forward in neutral and you can't put them in park once the motor is running)

The velvet drives from Huber and Bam are strong, they run them in big offshore boats (cats and v's) with 1,200+hp.

The only reason turbo400s were used is if the boat has huge gears and can't holeshot on one speed, They are a great transmission, don't get me wrong, we run a lot of them, but only because we have no other option in those applications, reverse gear in a turbo 400 SUCKS compared to a velvet drive, there is absolutely no comparison when in harbor/maneuvering.
 

wrighton

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Nice pictures Tom, Are all of the crossbraces custom fabbed for those applications? I got to hit the drawing board.

And thanks for the info Racey, 1,200 HP. Thats what I thought I read from BAM and Hubert set up's and thats what got me thinking and ask.

I have been made a very good deal on a polished 400 set up, with the exception of checking seals, my driveline, support stringer mount, and shifting set up.

Summer is getting close, :smackhead. I think I just got further behind on where I thought I was:bash:

Thanks again for the imput guys.
 

wrighton

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OK everyone. I have sinced picked up a polished T-400 for install. My next question is what gears would you think about installing in the V Drive. I am in process of having it freshened up. So if I am going to change gears this is the time to do it.


Thanks, Brian
 

vdcruiser

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Don't know what your engine combination is, but in my 21' Howard with a blown ,(10:71) 548 pump gas engine, (12 lbs of boost), and turbo 400, I run 48% gears with a 11 3/4X16 two blade or a 11 3/4X16 three blade. RPM is about 6300 with the two blade and 6000 with the three blade.
 

obnoxious001

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OK everyone. I have sinced picked up a polished T-400 for install. My next question is what gears would you think about installing in the V Drive. I am in process of having it freshened up. So if I am going to change gears this is the time to do it.


Thanks, Brian

How much boost do you want to run? How fast will that hull safely run?

I originally had 37's in my Schiada with an 8-71 on that 505 cu in engine,, but with no transmission,, around 8 lbs of boost I think (Although I ran AV gas instead of pump gas). I put 43's in the boat when I switched to turbos, more boost and a T 400,, then upped to 45's and still wanted to try 48's, but I was racing the boat.

Probably should talk to the engine builder.
 

AzGeo

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I like John Killgore's T-400 gearsets (1.32) in the v-drives I set up with T-400's. IMHO running "45's" in the v-drive with "such a factory stock low second gear in the trans" seems unfounded when that puts too much torque to the prop. (overpower the prop's surface area) Having rigged and built hundreds of play and race winning boats (since 1978) with 'auto transmissions' I would opt out for THE LEAST MOVING PARTS in any installation. IMHO "less means more", so designing along with building a boat without all the 'moving parts' of an automatic transmission' would always be my first choice for endurance as well as 'more trouble free' boating. In short, go for "big low end torque or suffer the maintainence of a T-400" when building your play boat.
 

wrighton

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thanks for the suggestions everyone, I am defineltly learnring there is a few wrong ways to do things and a lot of things to do right, although not one of those is a right perfect solution.

I will be heavily relying on the engine builders perspective on making the engine live healthy. I am keeping my paragon set up as a back up if the T 400 goes south.
 

wrighton

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I thought I would bump this thread up, as I am hoping to get to a mock up stage next month after a little 40 day turnaround at a refinery.

But I would like to ask for additonal photographs of shifters, tranny brackets, do you suggest fabbing your own, I would like to re use the drive line cover.
Any off the shelf items?

I will start a new thread when I get to mocking up with pictures, But thought this would be good to close out this thread for info for us V drive guys:thumbsup
 

wrighton

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I wanted to say thank you Ted Kolby for the deal on the transmission and Many Thanks for continuing support to Barry (Obnoxious) for Q&A on my steep learning curve for trying to do a build the right way.

Here is what I have to start with.
 

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obnoxious001

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Don't forget to get the endplay correct on that spline drive shaft! It can't be in a bind, nor can it be loose enough to come out of the transmission oil pump, either will end up causing big problems!
 

AzGeo

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Did you offer what gear ratio is in the V-drive ? Will you be changing that gearing to improve the use of the power and the T400 ?
 

wrighton

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Did you offer what gear ratio is in the V-drive ? Will you be changing that gearing to improve the use of the power and the T400 ?

Went from 12's to 32's on a 10 deg casale box
 

wrighton

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Don't forget to get the endplay correct on that spline drive shaft! It can't be in a bind, nor can it be loose enough to come out of the transmission oil pump, either will end up causing big problems!

The Art Carr Drive adapter has 2 washers on it for previous use clearances. Is there a certain end amount to check or does it vary on applications?
 

flyingcolors

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turbo 400 is best. to save rerigging try using a 737 torqueflite based trans
good luck
 

The Doctor

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Everybody will use what works best for their application. Our TT-BBC Schiada RC has 40% gears and a TH-400 with the park pall removed by my preference. As has been stated, reverse in a V-drive boat is just shy of worthless. Oh, it moves the boat in reverse (or stops the boat's drift) but expecting to back up effectively will be quite disappointing.
 

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wrighton if you need a side mount shifter for gunwale mounting I make them specifically for T400 with detents for reverse pattern valve body. Just fyi.

I think your choice of T400 is a good one. Best choice for big power with tall gear as Racey and others stated. First gear is nice for idling around docks and keeping the RPM up reasonably at the same time. I prefer having the parking pawl in, makes for easy prop nut removal and tightening. But not everyone likes it. With our T400 detent shifter you have to make a conscious effort to attempt to put in park from reverse.
 
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Wheeler

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wrighton if you need a side mount shifter for gunwale mounting I make them specifically for T400 with detents for reverse pattern valve body. Just fyi.

This is nice to know, I might be needing one. :thumbsup


By the way, Great thread!
 

steveo143

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I made a little plastic plug that I put in the 'park' detent to keep from going there by accident on the Rex type shifters. Mike, you could add something like this to your line easily!
 

wrighton

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I made a little plastic plug that I put in the 'park' detent to keep from going there by accident on the Rex type shifters. Mike, you could add something like this to your line easily!

I think I will be utilizing the plastic plug idea. It is a family cruiser, as I am not always the only driver.

Also good to know Rex, I have looked at them a few times. I was thinking away to machine my Sanger Hydro Guy Knob to go over the handle.

Will post picture when I get a chance.
 

djunkie

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I kinda like having Park. Makes it easy for getting the nut lose on the prop shaft. ;) I got just a standard shifter and I've never felt the need for the other one with the cutouts.


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djunkie

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Also, another nice thing about leaving park in it is when you fire the boat up on the trailer it keeps the prop from turning. In neutral my prop will still slowly turn.


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Halvecto

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If you don't need 2 speeds to get the boat on plane, most likely if you have gears that are around or lower than ~30% and 600+hp then i would recommend the velvet drive, the reverse is way better, they actually stop the shaft from spinning in neutral (turbo 400's still spin the shaft forward in neutral and you can't put them in park once the motor is running)

The velvet drives from Huber and Bam are strong, they run them in big offshore boats (cats and v's) with 1,200+hp.

The only reason turbo400s were used is if the boat has huge gears and can't holeshot on one speed, They are a great transmission, don't get me wrong, we run a lot of them, but only because we have no other option in those applications, reverse gear in a turbo 400 SUCKS compared to a velvet drive, there is absolutely no comparison when in harbor/maneuvering.

I know you have worked on Peckham's Blue Schiada race boat with a blown BBC. I have driven that boat. I know there is over 500hp there. Isn't he running a velvet trans or something similar?
 

rivergames

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This thread has tons of great info. Now does anyone know of a good shop that can freshen my T-400 up in the LA/OC area??? I'm thinking less expensive then art carr but someone that knows what they are doing....
 

djunkie

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This thread has tons of great info. Now does anyone know of a good shop that can freshen my T-400 up in the LA/OC area??? I'm thinking less expensive then art carr but someone that knows what they are doing....

Call Wilkes and see who did mine. Pretty reasonable for a complete trans and it's stout.


Sent from my iPhone paid for with Union money. :D
 
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