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Discussion in 'RD's Lounge' started by Universal Elements, Aug 15, 2019.
Sounds like everyone OK
Damn, glad they are ok!!!
Ho Lee fuk
A Thurman Munson kinda dealio.
Glad Nascar's favorite son and family are ok.
Not really like Munson. Munson was flying a single pilot model of the Cessna Citation, I think with an instructor on board. It says on Jr.’s flight there were two pilots on board in addition to Jr and his family. It was either an NBC jet or chartered jet, and they would require two pilots qualified in the plane to be flying it.
I don’t know.....does anyone know if if Jr is a pilot?
It was N8JR operated by JR Motorsports.
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Damn, do they have shit on the clintons?
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Wi Tu Lo
Could of been worse Hillary could have had a wall installed at the end of the runway
Sum Ting Wong
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So you own the company, the company owns the plane, the pilots maybe flexible in some instances.
Not even close. The aircraft had an experienced two man crew. The captain held an FAA Air Transport Pilot license, with type certification in several midsize to large bizjets. The co-pilot held a commercial multi-engine turbine license with type certificates in a couple of midsize jets and a few turboprops.
The Citation Latitude aircraft overran the end of runway 24, which is 5,000' long. I'm pretty sure that's more runway than the aircraft requires under all weight conditions. It went through the airport fence and stopped on a highway, and the breached fuel tanks were ignited by the engines.
The plane landed past the runway TDZ (touchdown zone) or experienced a brake failure. While per FAA regulations, the thrust reversers are not used in calculating stopping distance, and if the plane landed long and/or fast, the crew intended to rely on the TRs, and they subsequently failed, that could have contributed to the accident.
The outcome couldn't have been better. Post-crash fires kill a lot of slightly injured persons, and it's fortunate the crew and passengers got out safely. Passersby helped them out of the plane, which was a great help.
I had a similar experience back in 1986, but the ending was not a happy one.
I witnessed a Piper Cherokee lose power on takeoff while at a stop light on a street that was located under the departure end of the active runway.. The pilot tried to stretch his glide to a school ball field on the opposite side of a flood control ditch he had to cross. He came up a few feet short, the plane hit the embankment close to its 60 MPH stalling speed.
I jumped in my truck and drove the 1/8 mile or so where the aircraft rested, and jumped out, prepared to rescue the pilot. He had been knocked unconscious, and spilled fuel from the left wing fuel tank had ignited and was spreading.
Cherokees only have one cockpit door, on the right hand (passenger) side, and as I struggled to open the door, which was damaged by the crash, the flames melted the acrylic windows on the left side and spread over the top of the fuselage.
When I got the door open, I guess it fed oxygen to the fire, because the flames greatly increased. Black smoke billowed out of the cockpit, and I could no longer see the pilot.
At that point, an explosion of the burning wing tank was imminent, and I to give up. I backed off, burned and coughing, and watched the flames engulf the aircraft.
I felt a horrible sense of failure and frustration. He was right there within my grasp, and I couldn't free him from the crumpled cockpit. I found out later the autopsy determined he died from smoke inhalation and thermal burns.
He had been alive during my efforts, but unconscious. The plane didn't have shoulder harnesses installed, and his head hit the panel and knocked him out. I felt pretty overwhelmed by that, but eventually realized I couldn't have changed the outcome.
I believe when life puts you in a position like that, you have to give it your best shot. It's not a time to whip out your iPhone and start recording.
FAA guy, not assigned to this crash but close by, said they were very lucky that the chain link wrapped around the plane wasn't blocking the exit door...
I watched a plane spiral in out off highway 6 in the Mojave desert.. We were first on the scene, young man thrown clear, but gone. Pilot hanging out front window on fire, gone. Two pretty young girls strapped in the backseat, on fire, gone...I/we put out the pilot and retrieved his wallet, (ID) partially burned, and grabbed the girls purses out of the fire, (IDs showed pictures of very pretty ladies. )..And waited for LE to show up... He was a total dick. I/we were plenty shook up, and he just wanted to push us around, away from the plane...I almost didn't give him the wallet and purses...I can still see the girls...
I would say the best outcome would be the airplane turning off the runway and taxiing to the ramp.
Poor Thurman actually livd through the crash of his Citation and was consious when the fire broke out. He pleaded with his friends to get him out but the seat had broken free of its mounts and he was pinned in the cockpit. This came to light during the civil trial. While the guy sitting next to him was an instructor, he wasn't an instructor for the Citation, he was the instructor Thurman used for his primary flight training.
I don't think Jr. is a pilot, but even if he is it appears he and his family were in back, evidently with seat belts on. Watching videos of people flying in private jets I'm astounded at the number that aren't wearing any sort of restraint during takeoff or landing.
The plane crash that comes to my mind was Travis Barker's, the drummer from Blink 182. I believe there were six on board the private jet. He and another got out. He had burns over 65% of his body. Something like 27 surgeries later. He hasn't been on a plane since...took a ship to Europe for a concert tour. I remember when it happened, he rented a tour bus and hired nurses right after the accident to come back to California. I know these don't happen often, but these accidents are scary as hell when they do
Fire after a car or airplane crash is tough for the witnesses. It's another level of horror.
The instructor was actually the guy that trained Munson for his multi-engine license. Thurman's flying progression was quick, likely too much so.
Just months after he received his single ticket, he bought a Beechcraft Duke, which is a large high performance twin with 380 HP engines. That's a big jump. Less than two years later, he purchased the $2.1 million Cessna Citation he died in.
He was taking his former multi-engine instructor and another guy for a short ride. They took off, came back in for a touch and go, went around, and at that time the tower gave instructions to land on a different runway. Munson did not lower the flaps, which required a faster airspeed on approach.
The airspeed was dropping as they approached the runway, and the NTSB surmised Munson, unfamiliar with the spool up time the jet engines required, failed to apply throttle in a timely manner. The aircraft stalled and crashed.
Munson's back was broken and his spinal cord was severed in the crash. As you said, they tried to get him out but had to leave because of the fire.
Thurman might have escaped, but for two things. The left hand side of the plane's nose hit a large tree stump that was about five feet tall. It crushed the pilot's footbox area, tore the seat loose, and trapped him in the burning plane. Also, his seat belt was fastened, but not his shoulder harness. Because the belts and harness were attached to the aircraft structure and not the seat, even though the seat tore loose from the floor, he might not have hit the instrument panel with so much force, which broke his back and immobilized him. Without that injury, he might have been able to free himself.
His death was a shock to the nation. Back then, MLB was the most popular sport in the country, the Yankees were the best in baseball, and Munson was the team captain. They had won the World Series in consecutive years before Munson died. Imagine the reaction today if Tom Brady were to lose his life in a similar fashion. It was a huge blow.
a buddy well in the aviation industry heard they had a fire on board and had to make an emergency landing. dunno if thats true though..
My business partner and his dad watched the plane in front of their's crash on takeoff in Mexico and burn. Bad fuel. His dad always avoided fueling the Duke or Baron in Mexico if they could avoid it.
If you lose an engine on takeoff in a Duke, you'd better bring your "A" game and pack a lunch. The loss of 380 HP horsepower on one side is going to make the plane behave like you can't believe.
The engine out procedure in this big twin must be followed exactly, or the yaw will cause the wing on the dead engine side to stall, the plane will roll inverted, and the taxiway and grass upside down in the windshield is the last thing you'll see.
There are two critical speeds in a twin that are on the takeoff roll. One is rotation speed, lifting the nose to fly, and it can be done early in the roll if the pilot is ignoring the more important speed, called blue line speed.
The airspeed indicator has a blue arc in the outer ring of the dial. It represents the Vmca speed, or minimum control speed with one engine out. If you rotate and climb steeply without hitting blue line, the options are lower the nose to gain it, and if the plane is too low and slow, close the throttle on the good engine to straighten out the flight path and land straight ahead.
Losing the donk above blue line is no cakewalk either. You have seconds to boot in rudder to counteract the yaw, identify the dead engine and close the throttle and mixture controls, feather the propeller to reduce drag, raise the landing gear and flaps, and bank the airplane 5° toward the good engine.
The next task is to accelerate the plane through the blue line arc and increase airspeed. Depending on the fuel load, the plane will be climbing just about 400 vertical feet for every mile of forward progression.
This Duke crashed on takeoff at Fullerton's airport last month. He rotated immediately upon reaching takeoff speed, but was below blue line speed and totally unprepared for the coming struggle for his life when the left engine quit. In those circumstances, the pilot has just seconds to live if he acts improperly.
In this case, he had rotated so early and entered such a steep climb that I think his only option was to close both throttles to kill the yaw. There was no time to identify the failed engine and perform the procedure I outlined above. Next, drop the nose aggressively to gain airspeed and level the wings, and put it down on the remaining runway.
This is a pilot that wasn't wound up like a coiled snake and ready to strike. Mental preparation for an engine failure must be made before every takeoff. From all indications, the pilot hadn't done that. He had worked all week in his CA dental office, and was flying home to his family and their suburban SLC home.
Wow you are dropping serious knowledge. What’s your background?
Yeah, it was amazing how fast the Duke rolled at KFUL. I know a guy that just upgraded from a piston twin to a King Air as the insurance costs for the piston was crazy.
There is video of them exiting the aircraft without any passerby assist. At the forward exit, first out was Jr, he immediately turned and grabbed their baby from someone at the exit door, next out was a male (assume one of the pilots), next was his wife who stumbled and fell, looked like a brief glimpse of their dog just behind the wife. 2nd male (pilot) was not on this video but he apparently also got out. They escaped entirely on their own, plane was already burning, well engulfed and there were flames at the base of the exit door. As can be seen, the aircraft was leaning to the left, the exit was also on the left. Text book emergency escape situation.
I heard NTSB last night before the race that they landed fast and bounced on right gear and it collapsed.
Main reason why I will never ride in a sxs.
Because of fire risk or crashing?
A possible fire after the crash. With the harnesses, window nets, and doors I'd be afraid I would get trapped in the thing. If it catches on fire and I'm trapped in it or knocked out passangers... something I never want to experience.
I feel that your chances of getting trapped in a car fire are much greater, but I respect your fears.
I practice with my family quick disconnects if that scenario happens. But things can get hairy quick.
I had to quit flying in 2009 because I lost my medical. Bad outcomes on joint replacements require meds that are grounding.
Before that I was just your average private pilot, nothing noteworthy. But I miss flying.
Often operating a King Air 90 is cheaper than flying a 50 year old pressurized piston twin.