EV vs. Hydrogen fuel cell

[v6toy4x]

So I have been thinking about this, where do people think, or know, the hydrogen fuel cell will fall in this?

I am curious since my company just signed a long term lease on a piece of land we have in the bay area, with a hydrogen processing enterprise backed by Toyota and Hyundai along with state and fed grant money. Makes it sound like there is some real-time validity to this??

We did bring in outside consultants on the hazard element, considering Santa Clara just had one blow up in 2019, different enterprise.
Seems like they should be able to get past the explosion issue after all gas is some what explosive??
I just think the battery dependency on lithium still makes us dependent on outside interests (chille, austrailia, argentina and china all have considerabbly more than the US) and the long term disposal combined with re charging challenges that hydrogen makes some sense?
For the greenies, they cant complain about emisions that are basically water, oh wait they probably can!

In other words should I abandon Tesla for hydrogen??

 

[fmo24]

A buddy just bought two cars. Toyota I believe. He said by the time all the tax and Corp incentives are added up the cars are almost free. They will be used by his outside sales peeps.
Edit: he drives a Tesla for his personal car and said he is very disappointed with the car. The large screen took a shit which controls most all functions of car. Having trouble getting it into shop for repairs

 

[WhatExit?]

Hydrogen is a good alternative as the gas has massive energy in it (Hindenburg ) and using it to produce electricity in vehicles makes sense and the by product is water so no pollution. All that's needed is hydrogen storage in the vehicles and hydrogen fueling stations.

Hydrogen powered cars and trucks have been worked on for years - BMW and many others have made prototypes so the technology is there already.

Nikola trucks are going to be hydrogen powered assuming they reach the market. They've talked about setting up a network of stations - not sure if/how far they've gotten with that.

 

[v6toy4x]

From what I gathered in our small sample size of dealing with this, there is a metric shit ton of money coming down the pipe to push this to fruition.
It was interesting looking at their plans for the site, it is a 5 phase project and once you get a glimpse of the completed deal it paints and interesting picture.
retail service stations just like we have nos mini market and all. Medium size commercial truck stations all card read like now and distribution truck "refineries" on a small scale.

Its almost like we would be able to retrofit most of the retail infrastructure from petroleum to hydrogen.
Mind you all based on a very cursory, superficial look. We do have a couple hydrogen fueling stations here in the bay area.

I wouldn't mind leaving a small long term investment for my kids in the next big "chevron"

 

[v6toy4x]

They've talked about setting up a network of stations - not sure if/how far they've gotten with that.

This is exactly what the enterprise that leased our land is in full steam ahead, local jurisdiction is giving them fast trak status, they want it in their community??
Mind you this particular project is a single location though designed to phase in refueling of cars/ med trucks and providing processing for distribution over a 5 tier phasing of construction. There are several local filling stations in the bay area and the santa clara facility that has been off line since 2019, minor glitch-it blew up!!!

 

[Canuck 1]

Are they going to burn coal or some other fairy dust to produce the hydrogen? Or does it magically appear?

 

[Waffles]

Toyota just had a killer deal for qualifying customers on the 2021 Mirai + $15,000 in Complimentary Fuel for 2yrs @ 0% APR for 72-Months for as low as $23,108 after Incentives and Tax Credits.......the catch?
The catch is hydrogen is not catching on and you can't fill up anywhere.....and even if you can, youll be sol when those pumps take a shit.
ie:

I'm in so cal and I still can't find hydrogen that's a reasonable distance away. If i had to fill up, id have to depend on the yorba linda station to always fill up on my commute......wait....

The 2nd catch: in 10 years, you wont find hydrogen fuel station anywhere, no one can fix this except toyota if it has mechanical problem, the car will be worth 10% of price you pay because dealerships wont know what to do with it. Or it becomes a collector item
That's what's really killing the fuel cell market.
Dont get me wrong, im invested into this through ballard and such just in case it does pop off......but i dont see it going anywhere. EV has dominated the "alternative fuels" marketshare. Tesla and the likes have shaped the consensus that fuel cells have no future and thus, infrastructure has been slow to expand, funding may dry up and go directly to BEV related componentry and of course, sales will continue to slow down.

Stations Map | Hydrogen Fuel Cell Partnership

cafcp.org

 

[v6toy4x]

Are they going to burn coal or some other fairy dust to produce the hydrogen? Or does it magically appear?

Pick your poison!
I am sure they all have their up sides and down sides, some probably hypocritical.

• Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification: Synthesis gas, a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a small amount of carbon dioxide, is created by reacting natural gas with high-temperature steam. The carbon monoxide is reacted with water to produce additional hydrogen. This method is the cheapest, most efficient, and most common. Natural gas reforming using steam accounts for the majority of hydrogen produced in the United States annually.
  
  A synthesis gas can also be created by reacting coal or biomass with high-temperature steam and oxygen in a pressurized gasifier, which is converted into gaseous components—a process called gasification. The resulting synthesis gas contains hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which is reacted with steam to separate the hydrogen.
• Electrolysis: An electric current splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. If the electricity is produced by renewable sources, such as solar or wind, the resulting hydrogen will be considered renewable as well, and has numerous emissions benefits. Power-to-hydrogen projects are taking off, where excess renewable electricity, when available, is used to make hydrogen through electrolysis.
• Renewable Liquid Reforming: Renewable liquid fuels, such as ethanol, are reacted with high-temperature steam to produce hydrogen near the point of end use.
• Fermentation: Biomass is converted into sugar-rich feedstocks that can be fermented to produce hydrogen.

A number of hydrogen production methods are in development:

• High-Temperature Water Splitting: High temperatures generated by solar concentrators or nuclear reactors drive chemical reactions that split water to produce hydrogen.
• Photobiological Water Splitting: Microbes, such as green algae, consume water in the presence of sunlight, producing hydrogen as a byproduct.
• Photoelectrochemical Water Splitting: Photoelectrochemical systems produce hydrogen from water using special semiconductors and energy from sunlight.

 

[v6toy4x]

Toyota just had a killer deal for qualifying customers on the 2021 Mirai + $15,000 in Complimentary Fuel for 2yrs @ 0% APR for 72-Months for as low as $23,108 after Incentives and Tax Credits.......the catch?
The catch is hydrogen is not catching on and you can't fill up anywhere.....and even if you can, youll be sol when those pumps take a shit.
ie:
View attachment 985220

I'm in so cal and I still can't find hydrogen that's a reasonable distance away. If i had to fill up, id have to depend on the yorba linda station to always fill up on my commute......wait....

View attachment 985222

The 2nd catch: in 10 years, you wont find hydrogen fuel station anywhere, no one can fix this except toyota if it has mechanical problem, the car will be worth 10% of price you pay because dealerships wont know what to do with it. Or it becomes a collector item
That's what's really killing the fuel cell market.
Dont get me wrong, im invested into this through ballard and such just in case it does pop off......but i dont see it going anywhere. EV has dominated the "alternative fuels" marketshare. Tesla and the likes have shaped the consensus that fuel cells have no future and thus, infrastructure has been slow to expand, funding may dry up and go directly to BEV related componentry and of course, sales will continue to slow down.

Stations Map | Hydrogen Fuel Cell Partnership

cafcp.org

I am not sure about the not catching on, maybe not as fast as one would hope if you were considering investing, but from what I was exposed to there is local gov't interest and money to back it. However a lot of what you mentioned is why I am asking myself, where is this really going to end up. I think its worth a small gamble.

Fueling stations are without a doubt few and far between but if you live in the beautiful bay area I drive by two almost every day. I know a very very very small sample size but the potoential upswing seems hard to resist.

 

[spectra3279]

I don't think it will ever be viable with current t echnology. It still takes more power to make hydrogen than what you can make with the hydrogen.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[ArizonaKevin]

as has been discussed here it is energy deficient to get hydrogen into a format that can be used by cells in the car.

The question is, is that energy deficiency worth it to have the convenience of a tank that can be filled up? The faster and taster these EV chargers get (especially the 800v stuff coming from the VAG) I don't see it as a long term solution.