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HB Desalination Plant

beerrun

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The friggin’ idiots in CA have rejected a plan to help themselves with their water shortage. CA Coastal Commission voted unanimously to not approve the building of a desalinization plant near the Huntington Beach power plant.
Its just the man trying to keep us down 😁
 

Hydroman55

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The friggin’ idiots in CA have rejected a plan to help themselves with their water shortage. CA Coastal Commission voted unanimously to not approve the building of a desalinization plant near the Huntington Beach power plant.
The California politicians know full well there isn’t enough power to operate these type of plants and used the commission to run interference.
Desalination plants use big dog amounts of power coupled with the renewable mandates already leaving California with net shortages today.
Their not going to build anything that uses power to improve California residents lives.
 

Tooms22

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@Desert Whaler will be along shortly to echo your sentiments

popcorn.gif
 

rivrrts429

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They used the excuse that it would be built on a fault line 😂

I got news for them. There’s thousands of faults with buildings built on them. They just built a 30 story tower in LA on one of the most dangerous fault lines on the ring of fire. It has the largest continual mat pour footing in the world.

Someone will complain when they get their water restricted and their bill skyrockets. Like those who complain about airport noise after buying a home next to an airport lol
 

SoCalDave

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The California politicians know full well there isn’t enough power to operate these type of plants and used the commission to run interference.
Desalination plants use big dog amounts of power coupled with the renewable mandates already leaving California with net shortages today.
Their not going to build anything that uses power to improve California residents lives.
Yet they continue to approve/build new homes with only power to them...fukin idiots.
 

Desert Whaler

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I didn't want the thing built 'In My Backyard' admittedly for selfish reasons.
As I said, there's already a shit-plant, a de-func 1958 power plant, a new power plant, and a nasty toxic dump all in a 3-4 block area.
The streets in our area would've been torn up for years during the building process.
I wasn't into the millions of gallons of 'brine' dumped daily into the zone I fish / surf.
And the 'infrastructure' they were supposed to tie into is over 60 years old . . . shit built close to the beach 'tends' to corrode and deteriorate at a much faster rate than inland. So I was very suspicious about the whole building cost / timeline . . . think high-speed rail.
I'm not against de-sal at all . . . along with reservoirs, they both should've been being built all along now for decades.
There was one chick on the commission who voted no last night . . . a councilman from Santa Barbara who made a statement to the effect, "I wish I didn't have to vote no on this project because I do believe in De-sal, but there's just too many things glaringly wrong with this project".

I still think San Onofre could be possible location to be considered. But what do I know.
 

oldschool

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I heard the guy, that’s been heading this up, talk the other day and it’s insane to hear the reasons behind not wanting it. He’s already built a very successful plant in San Diego. This is a handful of nut jobs that are able to shoot it down. Surprisingly, The douche bag Newsome gave it his blessing, according to the guy I heard.
 

Xring01

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Newsome was for it… at least publically, but we dont know what strings he was pulling behind the scene.

Yall know my opinion on this. CA should have a dozen De Sal Plants under construction right now.

In my opinion… This got shut down mostly due to not in my backyard, and tree huggers stating the damage it will do to the environment.
When they eventually get rationed to 1 shower a week, then the dumb ass’s may realize that De Sal plants are needed IN THE FUCKING DESERT, WHERE THERE IS NO TRACE OF FRESH WATER…

Again this was one of the reasons why I wanted out of CA… dumb ass voters… put the politcians in charge and allow this shit to continue.

Then the dumb fucks will be whining about why they cant water their grass, or wash their car and high water bills…

They got exactly what they deserve.
 
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Joker

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Newsome was for it… at least publically, but we dont know what strings he was pulling behind the scene.

Yall know my opinion on this. CA should have a dozen De Sal Plants under construction right now.

In my opinion… This got shut down mostly due to not in my backyard, and tree huggers stating the damage it will do to the environment.
When they eventually get rationed to 1 shower a week, then the dumb ass’s may realize that De Sal plants are needed IN THE FUCKING DESERT, WHERE THERE IS NO TRACE OF FRESH WATER…

Again this was one of the reasons why I wanted out of CA… dumb ass voters… put the politcians in charge and allow this shit to continue.

Then the dumb fucks will be whining about why they cant water their grass, or wash their car and high water bills…

They got exactly what they deserve.
Agree. The one we worked on in Carlsbad is IMHO a beautiful plant that is barely noticeable. They could have painted an ugly mural on it to match the new power plant here.
 

rivrrts429

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Newsome was for it… at least publically, but we dont know what strings he was pulling behind the scene.

Yall know my opinion on this. CA should have a dozen De Sal Plants under construction right now.

In my opinion… This got shut down mostly due to not in my backyard, and tree huggers stating the damage it will do to the environment.
When they eventually get rationed to 1 shower a week, then the dumb ass’s may realize that De Sal plants are needed IN THE FUCKING DESERT, WHERE THERE IS NO TRACE OF FRESH WATER…

Again this was one of the reasons why I wanted out of CA… dumb ass voters… put the politcians in charge and allow this shit to continue.

Then the dumb fucks will be whining about why they cant water their grass, or wash their car and high water bills…

They got exactly what they deserve.


By the time they realize their water is being rationed they’ll blame everyone but themselves. The brine argument killing habitat is like arguing that bringing one grain of sand to the beach will make a difference to its habitat.

Carlsbad is a beautiful facility and they’re definitely not going to pump their water North.
 

mjc

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I didn't want the thing built 'In My Backyard' admittedly for selfish reasons.
As I said, there's already a shit-plant, a de-func 1958 power plant, a new power plant, and a nasty toxic dump all in a 3-4 block area.
The streets in our area would've been torn up for years during the building process.
I wasn't into the millions of gallons of 'brine' dumped daily into the zone I fish / surf.
And the 'infrastructure' they were supposed to tie into is over 60 years old . . . shit built close to the beach 'tends' to corrode and deteriorate at a much faster rate than inland. So I was very suspicious about the whole building cost / timeline . . . think high-speed rail.
I'm not against de-sal at all . . . along with reservoirs, they both should've been being built all along now for decades.
There was one chick on the commission who voted no last night . . . a councilman from Santa Barbara who made a statement to the effect, "I wish I didn't have to vote no on this project because I do believe in De-sal, but there's just too many things glaringly wrong with this project".

I still think San Onofre could be possible location to be considered. But what do I know.
You need way more than one in San onofre to help fix the lack of water in CA.
 

Joker

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Capturing water would also be a neat idea. CA would rather just complain about it for 50 years.

They demand housing and complain about resources it is really hard to them serious.
We just worked on another Desal Plant in Perris last year. They are popping up in places you wouldn't expect.
 

TCHB

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The desal plant at HB has been going on for years.
One of the main problems is that the public would have to pay 3 times the cost of all other water sources for 25 years. If you have heavy snow pack and lots of rain the water is not needed the public would still have to pay for the plant all all expenses. They basically wanted a iron clad contract with no downsize risk For 25 years.. I remember a city engineer saying if we Conserve we can save more than 2 of these plants with no additional cost to the public.
 

Dennis-19

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Agree. The one we worked on in Carlsbad is IMHO a beautiful plant that is barely noticeable. They could have painted an ugly mural on it to match the new power plant here.

Ugly is an understatement
 

Joker

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Ugly is an understatement
It was either that horrific painting or the "ball wall" they had proposed to make local residents happy. If you drive along PCH you'll notice 4 or 5 rows of balls by 6 wide facing PCH. That was option B to beautify the plant.
 

stephenkatsea

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Once the CA politicians are able to get in the line with the flow of $$, these desal plants will begin popping up all over the place. I did read something about the Poseidon Co., proposed builder of the HB plant, putting forth and sending out their positive bullet points on CA Coastal Commission letter head stationary. That’s just too stupid to not be true.
 

TCHB

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I was the Plant Manager at the HB plant for years and we always painted it to blend in with the sky like a military ship. The color scheme was picked out by the city!
 

2Driver

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There’s no climate change agenda unless you purposely feel inflicted pain
 

Joker

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I was the Plant Manager at the HB plant for years and we always painted it to blend in with the sky like a military ship. The color scheme was picked out by the city!
You gotta see the new paint. It looks like you’re driving into Sea World. It should show images of men working and steam locomotives. Since when did dolphins and whales generate power?
 
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mjc

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I wonder which is the biggest opposition to the desal plant approach, Not in my Backyard or the Eco damage folks? Do either feel their state's present approach to its water needs is anywhere close to sufficient? If not, do either have alternative proposals?
Neither has any other proposals they have their heads in the sand and don't care and can't see beyond the current day, never looking into what will happen in the future.
 

Desert Whaler

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@stephenkatsea @mjc
I'll staple my own self to the cross, and admit that I don't want it in my backyard.
And yep, my head IS in the sand . . . been that way for 52 years . . . find someone else's backyard to fuck-up . . . not mine.
Proposals, ??? . . . this state has had DECADES to figure this shit out.
 

DrunkenSailor

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Socql has built one reservoir in the last 40 years. It's a freaking miracle the plant in Carlsbad got built.

They say you can extract lithium from the brine. Win win...
 

Xring01

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@stephenkatsea @mjc
I'll staple my own self to the cross, and admit that I don't want it in my backyard.
And yep, my head IS in the sand . . . been that way for 52 years . . . find someone else's backyard to fuck-up . . . not mine.
Proposals, ??? . . . this state has had DECADES to figure this shit out.
So you admit Ca needs fresh water.
So you admit you live in the desert, with no trace of fresh water.
A good viable solution is proposed, and you dont want it in your back yard.

Exactly why I moved… ENOUGH SAID…

The term SNOWFLAKE comes to mind… I am pretty sure you not millenial.. but you act like a SNOWFLAKE CALIFORNIAN. and a key reason why I decided to get the fuck out.

Because everyone in CA has the same fucking mindset… not in my backyard… and the problems get worse… and alot more expensive to solve… kick the can down the road… piss’s me off to no end.
 
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Xring01

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Socql has built one reservoir in the last 40 years. It's a freaking miracle the plant in Carlsbad got built.

They say you can extract lithium from the brine. Win win...
I provided the transformers to the Cannon Substation that was upgraded to meet the load requirements of that plant.
I provided 2 15/20/25MVA 69/12kv LTC unit to it.. pretty sure they were 69kv, slight chance they where 138kv… If I dig into my photo archives I can find the delivery photos. Basically SDGE had 50MVA of capacity to meet the load needs of the plant.
 

Desert Whaler

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So you admit Ca needs fresh water.
So you admit you live in the desert, with no trace of fresh water.
A good viable solution is proposed, and you dont want it in your back yard.

Exactly why I moved… ENOUGH SAID…

The term SNOWFLAKE comes to mind… I am pretty sure you not millenial.. but you act like a SNOWFLAKE CALIFORNIAN. and a key reason why I decided to get the fuck out.

Because everyone in CA has the same fucking mindset… not in my backyard… and the problems get worse… and alot more expensive to solve… kick the can down the road… piss’s me off to no end.
Nice !
Cruise over anytime & we can chat-it-up & scrutinize my 'Snow-Flake-Ness'.
Open Invite 24-7 to 'Casa De Millenial" . . . Maybe we can share a Six'er of your favorite flavor, and 'Kick the Cans' down the road afterwards.

. . . hold-up . . . "Exactly why I moved . . . ENOUGH SAID" . . .

If you bounced the state, why are you still barking w/ no dog in the hunt ?
 

TCHB

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Unyielding we had a couple bottle water compa
You gotta see the new paint. It looks like you’re driving into Sea World. It should show images of men working and steam locomotives. Since when did dolphins and whales generate power?
I agree it looks odd to me. Thank the city leaders for the art!
 

Xring01

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Nice !
Cruise over anytime & we can chat-it-up & scrutinize my 'Snow-Flake-Ness'.
Open Invite 24-7 to 'Casa De Millenial" . . . Maybe we can share a Six'er of your favorite flavor, and 'Kick the Cans' down the road afterwards.

. . . hold-up . . . "Exactly why I moved . . . ENOUGH SAID" . . .

If you bounced the state, why are you still barking w/ no dog in the hunt ?

I would love to take you up on that offer, I will bring a bottle of bourbon.
However, In that analysis your are totally wrong.
I have a huge dog in this fight…

My job… is to do my best to keep the US/CA Grid 100% Reliable… Thats what I do for a living… Keeping the fucking lights on.

Ca make my life extremely difficult with the rules/regulations/CPUC/CCA’s..voters, tree huggers , all the people who think they are doing whats best for planet. When you truly dig into it, they are just selfish people who try to push $$$/prestige/hollywood power/political power what ever it takes to get their way at any expense. Not in my backyard, create all kinds of excuses on why it bad for the environment. Maybe this could be one of the reasons I left… hummm think so? Maybe no water… high crime fed into that equation a bit...

I moved as close to CA as I could that still had a damn good water supply… Just outside of Reno… So I can still do my job in Ca keeping the lights on.

Please ask me how I know all of this. I have been the guy trying to keep the lights on in CA for the last 25 years or more. I promise you one thing right now. Ca does not have the reserves it needs, doesnt have the transmission capacity to import the energy during peak demands. Doesnt have the Energy storage capacity it needs. Damn sure doesnt have the spinning reserves needed to restart after a major power outage.

Why… BECAUSE NO ONE IN CA WANTS POWER PLANT IN THEIR BACKYARD, BUT THEY WANT THE LIGHTS TO TURN ON WHEN THEY FLIP THE SWITCH… Just like the water discussion huh… DE JA VU… same discussion.

Because the water that CA wastes, means alot less water for Hydro power…
Shasta will reduce power this year due to water, Oroville, Bishop, IID, Hoover, Grand Cooley… should I keep going… While Ca continues to suck the water from the San Juaguin, Co River, but refuses to build new De Sal Plants…

Exactly… one impacts the other.

Would you say I have a chihuahua or great dane in this now?

Here are a few questions?
How much energy does CA get from Hydro? Not just in Ca, but also imported…
What happens if the hydro energy that CA depends on is no longer producing and they have no way to replace it right now.
What do you think is going to happen.. Good things or Bad Things?
HOW MANY LIVES WILL BE LOST?

BUT NOT IN MY BACKYARD!
 
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Desert Whaler

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I would love to take you up on that offer, I will bring a bottle of bourbon.
However, In that analysis your are totally wrong.
I have a huge dog in this fight…

My job… is to do my best to keep the US/CA Grid 100% Reliable… Thats what I do for a living… Keeping the fucking lights on.

Ca make my life extremely difficult with the rules/regulations/CPUC/CCA’s..voters, tree huggers , all the people who think they are doing whats best for planet. When you truly dig into it, they are just selfish people who try to push $$$/prestige/hollywood power/political power what ever it takes to get their way at any expense. Not in my backyard, create all kinds of excuses on why it bad for the environment. Maybe this could be one of the reasons I left… hummm think so? Maybe no water… high crime fed into that equation a bit...

I moved as close to CA as I could that still had a damn good water supply… Just outside of Reno… So I can still do my job in Ca keeping the lights on.

Please ask me how I know all of this. I have been the guy trying to keep the lights on in CA for the last 25 years or more. I promise you one thing right now. Ca does not have the reserves it needs, doesnt have the transmission capacity to import the energy during peak demands. Doesnt have the Energy storage capacity it needs. Damn sure doesnt have the spinning reserves needed to restart after a major power outage.

Why… BECAUSE NO ONE IN CA WANTS POWER PLANT IN THEIR BACKYARD, BUT THEY WANT THE LIGHTS TO TURN ON WHEN THEY FLIP THE SWITCH… Just like the water discussion huh… DE JA VU… same discussion.

Because the water that CA wastes, means alot less water for Hydro power…
Shasta will reduce power this year due to water, Oroville, Bishop, IID, Hoover, Grand Cooley… should I keep going… While Ca continues to suck the water from the San Juaguin, Co River, but refuses to build new De Sal Plants…

Exactly… one impacts the other.
Right on . . and mad respect for what you do & your sacrifices. 🤙
I'd just ask that You don't lump Me in to your 'stats' until You've hung with Me & shared a beer . . .
 

Xring01

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Right on . . and mad respect for what you do & your sacrifices. 🤙
I'd just ask that You don't lump Me in to your 'stats' until You've hung with Me & shared a beer . . .

I can have one beer, but then we have to shift to bourbon.
Beer and me, results in me becoming a helium balloon and its time for a nap..
Bourbon… we can go for 24 hours.
 

TCHB

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There is 500 miles of nothing but farms who need the water in California up the 5. 70 desal plants pumping water would have done a shit load more for the state then a not so bullety train from Merced to Bakersfield.
How about
I would love to take you up on that offer, I will bring a bottle of bourbon.
However, In that analysis your are totally wrong.
I have a huge dog in this fight…

My job… is to do my best to keep the US/CA Grid 100% Reliable… Thats what I do for a living… Keeping the fucking lights on.

Ca make my life extremely difficult with the rules/regulations/CPUC/CCA’s..voters, tree huggers , all the people who think they are doing whats best for planet. When you truly dig into it, they are just selfish people who try to push $$$/prestige/hollywood power/political power what ever it takes to get their way at any expense. Not in my backyard, create all kinds of excuses on why it bad for the environment. Maybe this could be one of the reasons I left… hummm think so? Maybe no water… high crime fed into that equation a bit...

I moved as close to CA as I could that still had a damn good water supply… Just outside of Reno… So I can still do my job in Ca keeping the lights on.

Please ask me how I know all of this. I have been the guy trying to keep the lights on in CA for the last 25 years or more. I promise you one thing right now. Ca does not have the reserves it needs, doesnt have the transmission capacity to import the energy during peak demands. Doesnt have the Energy storage capacity it needs. Damn sure doesnt have the spinning reserves needed to restart after a major power outage.

Why… BECAUSE NO ONE IN CA WANTS POWER PLANT IN THEIR BACKYARD, BUT THEY WANT THE LIGHTS TO TURN ON WHEN THEY FLIP THE SWITCH… Just like the water discussion huh… DE JA VU… same discussion.

Because the water that CA wastes, means alot less water for Hydro power…
Shasta will reduce power this year due to water, Oroville, Bishop, IID, Hoover, Grand Cooley… should I keep going… While Ca continues to suck the water from the San Juaguin, Co River, but refuses to build new De Sal Plants…

Exactly… one impacts the other.

Would you say I have a chihuahua or great dane in this now?

Here are a few questions?
How much energy does CA get from Hydro? Not just in Ca, but also imported…
What happens if the hydro energy that CA depends on is no longer producing and they have no way to replace it right now.
What do you think is going to happen.. Good things or Bad Things?
HOW MANY LIVES WILL BE LOST?

BUT NOT IN MY BACKYARD!
I would love to take you up on that offer, I will bring a bottle of bourbon.
However, In that analysis your are totally wrong.
I have a huge dog in this fight…

My job… is to do my best to keep the US/CA Grid 100% Reliable… Thats what I do for a living… Keeping the fucking lights on.

Ca make my life extremely difficult with the rules/regulations/CPUC/CCA’s..voters, tree huggers , all the people who think they are doing whats best for planet. When you truly dig into it, they are just selfish people who try to push $$$/prestige/hollywood power/political power what ever it takes to get their way at any expense. Not in my backyard, create all kinds of excuses on why it bad for the environment. Maybe this could be one of the reasons I left… hummm think so? Maybe no water… high crime fed into that equation a bit...

I moved as close to CA as I could that still had a damn good water supply… Just outside of Reno… So I can still do my job in Ca keeping the lights on.

Please ask me how I know all of this. I have been the guy trying to keep the lights on in CA for the last 25 years or more. I promise you one thing right now. Ca does not have the reserves it needs, doesnt have the transmission capacity to import the energy during peak demands. Doesnt have the Energy storage capacity it needs. Damn sure doesnt have the spinning reserves needed to restart after a major power outage.

Why… BECAUSE NO ONE IN CA WANTS POWER PLANT IN THEIR BACKYARD, BUT THEY WANT THE LIGHTS TO TURN ON WHEN THEY FLIP THE SWITCH… Just like the water discussion huh… DE JA VU… same discussion.

Because the water that CA wastes, means alot less water for Hydro power…
Shasta will reduce power this year due to water, Oroville, Bishop, IID, Hoover, Grand Cooley… should I keep going… While Ca continues to suck the water from the San Juaguin, Co River, but refuses to build new De Sal Plants…

Exactly… one impacts the other.

Would you say I have a chihuahua or great dane in this now?

Here are a few questions?
How much energy does CA get from Hydro? Not just in Ca, but also imported…
What happens if the hydro energy that CA depends on is no longer producing and they have no way to replace it right now.
What do you think is going to happen.. Good things or Bad Things?
HOW MANY LIVES WILL BE LOST?

BUT NOT IN MY BACKYARD!
Yesterday a large power plant was derated 60% and the grid did not even feel It. we Removed fuel oil in all of our SCE plants in the 80s and people freaked out that we had no oil. did not even feel it. When we closed Mohave GS 1500MWs did not even feel it. SONGs closed no big deal.
 

Xring01

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How about


Yesterday a large power plant was derated 60% and the grid did not even feel It. we Removed fuel oil in all of our SCE plants in the 80s and people freaked out that we had no oil. did not even feel it. When we closed Mohave GS 1500MWs did not even feel it. SONGs closed no big deal.
Really,,, its spring time brother… How many people in CA are running AC and Heaters right now???
I am talking peak loads… Every utility out there has programs for Peak Load Reduction, Demand Response programs and on and on..

Why, because they know they cant fight the regulations, and build the power plants needed. Its easier to try to get the customers to reduce the load than it is to build power plants.

But you can only do that for so long, especially when their is more demand put on the grid.

EV Cars do not charge them selves. Each one draws more power when they are charging than the average house.

We will know this summer how accurate I am…
A little thing called Rolling Blackouts will be my proof.
 
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Xring01

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07A6AC44-AAE0-47DC-A7A4-E10BEEBC1BA5.jpeg


This spring time in Texas, posted 2 hours ago on Linkin .. Texas is pretty close to rolling black outs, if customers dont conserve energy…
Hummm…. maybe I might be on to something
Wonder what happens when its 105 degrees in Texas, say in the middle of Aug…
Do you think the peak demand might he alot higher in Aug, versus May????

Lets do some rough redneck math based on this article.
Ercot Peaks at 65000mW, and if 3000 mW trip off line they are in trouble…

So 3000mW is less than 5% of the capacity needed…

They are in trouble if they lose less than 5% of generation assets in MAY… Not August…

Do you think they could lose more than 5% if a Tornado or hurricae comes thru… This article proves my point. Texas does not have enough reserves to cover the problems that are bound to happen.

Well let me clarify… its not all of Texas… Just the Ercot portion, which is a huge portion.. But thats how pretty much the entire IOU grid across the US is being run.

Seriously, who thinks that the grid should be optimized at 105% of peak load.. WHO… What could could go wrong. That leaves you practically no room for emergency maintenance, or emergency situations.

This is the conversation that CPUC/NERC/FERC types need to be having. If you gonna change from old technology to green technogy, do not go below a 125% Margin, or something to that effect. But 105%, we know what happened last winter in Texas with roughly the same margins… power was out for 2 weeks in some areas.
 
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Xring01

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How about


Yesterday a large power plant was derated 60% and the grid did not even feel It. we Removed fuel oil in all of our SCE plants in the 80s and people freaked out that we had no oil. did not even feel it. When we closed Mohave GS 1500MWs did not even feel it. SONGs closed no big deal.
SONGS no big deal..
I have worked with the SCE, Power Engineering Dept (they used to have offices in San Dimas), Substation Engineering Dept, and Appraratus Eng group for 25 years… Same with the SDGE guys..

I bet I can speed dial 10-20 of them right now who might have a different opinion.

As I have mentioned… the greatest asset that SONGS gave the Southern CA,,, was spinning reserves/ intertia to restart a black grid. Dumb ass PUC forced Synchronous Condensers instead of repowering with Nat Gas… Please tell me that SCE didnt try to repower with Nat Gas… we both know they tried there ass off, and was pissed when they where not allowed to.

How did that work our to SCE/ SDGE… I have the guys on speed dial right now who can shed some light on the reliability/costs/maintenace aspects of that Sync Cond… a key question that needs to be asked… Will it work when needed. From what I hear.. no way… its not going to provide the inertia needed. NOPE NOPE NOPE. And we lost 3000mW of power when it shut down. Right.. Was it 2 1500mW running, or 2 1000mW that where still running with MEPPI fucked it all up.

Mohave… I remember that plant… I did a job walk out there to do maintenance on the transformers. If I recall, it was owned by NRG, or someone connected to Fl Power… The cool thing about it was there was a under ground river, that was used as cooling water correct. That was one of the reasons it was shut down. Because of the “new regulations at that time“, that prevented the plant to use that under water river as cooling water… Is my memory right…shit that was 15 years ago or more…
 
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hallett21

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What’s the protocol for a legitimate black out? Say Los Angeles truly shut off. Do you disconnect all loads and slowly start generating power?

I assume you would also disconnect from surrounding areas to Isolate the issue?
 

rivrrts429

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View attachment 1115843

This spring time in Texas, posted 2 hours ago on Linkin .. Texas is pretty close to rolling black outs, if customers dont conserve energy…
Hummm…. maybe I might be on to something
Wonder what happens when its 105 degrees in Texas, say in the middle of Aug…
Do you think the peak demand might he alot higher in Aug, versus May????

Lets do some rough redneck math based on this article.
Ercot Peaks at 65000mW, and if 3000 mW trip off line they are in trouble…

So 3000mW is less than 5% of the capacity needed…

They are in trouble if they lose less than 5% of generation assets in MAY… Not August…

Do you think they could lose more than 5% if a Tornado or hurricae comes thru… This article proves my point. Texas does not have enough reserves to cover the problems that are bound to happen.

Well let me clarify… its not all of Texas… Just the Ercot portion, which is a huge portion.. But thats how pretty much the entire IOU grid across the US is being run.

Seriously, who thinks that the grid should be optimized at 105% of peak load.. WHO… What could could go wrong. That leaves you practically no room for emergency maintenance, or emergency situations.

This is the conversation that CPUC/NERC/FERC types need to be having. If you gonna change from old technology to green technogy, do not go below a 125% Margin, or something to that effect. But 105%, we know what happened last winter in Texas with roughly the same margins… power was out for 2 weeks in some areas.


In Texas the temperature isn’t the issue it’s the humidity. It could be 95* and they’re operating at full capacity.
 

Xring01

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What’s the protocol for a legitimate black out? Say Los Angeles truly shut off. Do you disconnect all loads and slowly start generating power?

I assume you would also disconnect from surrounding areas to Isolate the issue?
Disclaimer… I am not a protection engineer, nor am I a generation engineer… Hell I am not an engineer, but lots of people on linked in seem to think I am. I guess over 25 years of experience. I learned a thing or 3…

If you really want to know the answer, then do some research on your own about interia and the principals behind it to get high voltage energy to flow on long transmission lines.

A key aspect…in electrical theory… Electricity must sense/see a path to ground, in order to flow…

The longer the power line, the more of a challenge that becomes.

So think about all the large power plants across the west coast 20 years ago. Lots of them right, Lets say for arguements sake on average they where place every 100 miles apart. In those time, when you had black out in an area.. worst case was another plant about 100 miles away that your plant could sense/see and it would come up to power pretty quickly and solve that problem..

In todays world, we dont have that volume of plants, and they are not as close together. So the inertia problem is exacerbated, the more they shut down power plants… In our would we call them spinning reserves. Because in all big power plants that massive equipment with alot of copper, and typically spinning (like an alternator), which can handle the bumps on the power grid. Those spinning reserves are one of the greatest assets in providing inertia to the grid… SONGS was our biggest asset in SoCal… I do say was…

PUC pushed Technology over Nat Gas Plant… at SONGS when they shut down the Nukes. In my opinion and lot of utility engineers do not agree with that decision at all. In fact some will say it made the problem worse.
 

jet496

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The California politicians know full well there isn’t enough power to operate these type of plants and used the commission to run interference.
Desalination plants use big dog amounts of power coupled with the renewable mandates already leaving California with net shortages today.
Their not going to build anything that uses power to improve California residents lives.
But, but, but CA is banning gas powered everything (lawn mowers, cars, etc.) which will be powered by electricity. They best start building some power plants because that will be the only source of energy allowed in CA by 2035. CA is mostly desert so I would think we have enough room to build huge solar & wind turbine farms. Maybe a few more nuke plants as well, but I'm not a fan of nuclear waste. Something should be planned though.
 

Xring01

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But, but, but CA is banning gas powered everything (lawn mowers, cars, etc.) which will be powered by electricity. They best start building some power plants because that will be the only source of energy allowed in CA by 2035.

CPUC/NERC/FERC and NEWSOM have this all figured out.
We solve all the worlds problems with Distributed Energy Resources (aka DERS), and Micro Grids.

But the DERS have to be green in Ca and most liberal run states. Ca doesnt allow gas fired power generators in a DER program, only green things like Solar, Wind, Hydro, or best thing ever is BESS (Battery Energy Storage Systems)… thats what they push the hardest.. BESS… to the moon.

In theory, with an unlimited budget, manufacturing capacity and plenty of labor.. We got this…

But we dont have any of that…NOPE NOPE NOPE.

Its stupid expensive, even if we had a money tree… The regulations put suppliers against each other because there are no interconnection standards/regulations and we all know what the supply chain and the labor markets look like.

What could go wrong.
 

Hydroman55

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But, but, but CA is banning gas powered everything (lawn mowers, cars, etc.) which will be powered by electricity. They best start building some power plants because that will be the only source of energy allowed in CA by 2035. CA is mostly desert so I would think we have enough room to build huge solar & wind turbine farms. Maybe a few more nuke plants as well, but I'm not a fan of nuclear waste. Something should be planned though.
All good points but I’m not sure even if solar farms covered every square inch of desert the capacity would not meet demand.
 
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Xring01

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All good points but I’m not sure even if solar farms covered every square inch of desert the capacity would meet demand.
Yes… they can…
Assuming that you could store and transmit the energy they produced, to meet the night time load requirements.

That would require an unlimited budget, manufacturing, and labor to install of it.

Hell, now that I think about, what are the natural resources requirements to meet the needs of the program. Shit… thats a major problem also. Thats brings alot more problems to this equation, we will need an almost infinite supply of copper, steel, aluminum, lithium, cobalt etc etc etc etc etc etc…
 

stephenkatsea

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XringO1 - I recall hearing the term "peaking plants" in reference to many power plants in CA. It was my understanding they were there, on standby, 98% of the time. But, could readily kick on line when their power was needing. Believe you used the term "spinning reserves". Are they those peaking plants? Your posts on this topic are informative and much appreciated. Unfortunately, it appears drinking beer and kicking the can is very unlikely to provide much in the way of a solution.
 

jet496

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SONGS was our biggest asset in SoCal… I do say was…

PUC pushed Technology over Nat Gas Plant… at SONGS when they shut down the Nukes. In my opinion and lot of utility engineers do not agree with that decision at all. In fact some will say it made the problem worse.
San Onofre turned into a nightmare when they replaced the tubes but the new tubes ended up leaking radiation (Oops).

Now they have a fiasco on their hands trying to relocate the nuclear rods, which takes 500,000 years to become nonradioactive, but nobody wants them in their state or to be transported through their areas to be taken someplace remote. If they stay, eventually we will have our own Fukushima on our hands, just a matter of time.
 

Kachina26

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There is 500 miles of nothing but farms who need the water in California up the 5. 70 desal plants pumping water would have done a shit load more for the state then a not so bullety train from Merced to Bakersfield.
Madera to Shafter unless something changed recently.
 
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