WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

Head on at Topoc?

Taboma

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
7,324
Reaction score
9,152
Such a sad thing to read. I wanted to say my prayers and respect to all families and friends involved and still praying for a positive outcome.

I was boating myself yesterday and I couldn’t believe all the laws being broken and it made me wonder are people uneducated on the laws or are they just lazy? I sat inside a no wake zone yesterday and I would say of the 15 boats that went by 10 were throwing a good size wake. It’s very frustrating to me and with kids swimming very dangerous. I honestly don’t feel safe on the water anymore and changes need to be made.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Some uneducated, various posts on this "Boating" forum make that obvious.

Some too lazy, or they get "River/lake Stupid" soon after arriving.

Most just don't give a fuck, rules and laws are made for other people, the dumb ones who will always arrive last because of their respect for safety and others. The same people we encounter every day, for every rule you follow, they've figured out how to best it and view you with contempt.

The true irony is, that on this very forum we read the comments and boasting of boaters who are legends in their own minds, the ultimate in performance boat skippers, quick to point out the mistakes of the less experienced. Sadly, in another post they'll proudly boast while displaying a picture of their vehicle speedometer registering 25 MPH or more over the posted speed, because in this case, that rule only applies to others.

I write this knowing I too am occasionally guilty of picking and choosing which laws apply and when I will abide by them.

So unfortunately, we can be lazy, we can be uneducated and we can place our needs and desires above the laws, in truth, we're all guilty.

Some of us are just perhaps more lucky than others.:(
 

Bleakish Times

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
249
Reaction score
190
Such a sad thing to read. I wanted to say my prayers and respect to all families and friends involved and still praying for a positive outcome.

I was boating myself yesterday and I couldn’t believe all the laws being broken and it made me wonder are people uneducated on the laws or are they just lazy? I sat inside a no wake zone yesterday and I would say of the 15 boats that went by 10 were throwing a good size wake. It’s very frustrating to me and with kids swimming very dangerous. I honestly don’t feel safe on the water anymore and changes need to be made.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We now live in an "entitled" society. The "Golden Rule" has been virtually lost.
 

707dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
2,591
Reaction score
1,991
man the lives that have been changed forever, without pointing finger at faults hope the correct info on what happen comes out. we all spend a lot of time on the water hope we all can take a good look at some of our boating skills and learn something or sharpen the ones we know. prayers to all involved
 

New to boating

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
341
Reaction score
473
If you are floating, technically you are "underway" and should have red / green and 360 white. If you are anchored and not "underway" is when it's just the 360.

Edit - Sorry just saw this has been gone over several times now.

RD
I have read the posts here and on the other thread, the direction it has taken is predictable and I do think that the majority of people are trying to offer information and opinions that will help in some way.

This became clear to me while digesting all of this.... researching blue, red and white lights (or whatever color you prefer) and what they mean is great for educational purposes and the "legal correctness" of boating etiquette but I'm not sure it matters in the instant case, or that it will ever matter based upon the realities of this venue and the people who boat in this region.

We are talking about the River and Lake Havasu. This is not a "shipping channel" with professional Captains and crew who make a living running commercial boats or Yachts where they are paid to know these things. Walk around Pirates or Topock on a holiday weekend (or any weekend for that matter), identify boat Owners/Drivers and ask them if they know what the "red navigation light vs. the green navigation light" means and I would bet that 99% of them would have absolutely ZERO clue, and that's not a criticism, its simply reality and we all know it.

What all of the Owners/Drivers have is an opportunity to employ common sense, and they can choose to use it, or substitute alternative poor decision making for what is abundantly clear to some of us, not others.

16 people on two relatively small boats
In the River (narrow body of water)
At night
At speed (at least one of the boats seems to have been at speed)
Busiest weekend of the year

For each line item above the risk factor goes up exponentially. Put them all together and you have the greatest risk for something really terrible happening, like what happened this weekend.
 

dribble

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
2,803
Reaction score
2,958
They say that it is not one thing that causes a plane to crash but a series of failures strung together. I think you nailed it here.
 

Runs2rch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
7,014
Reaction score
4,856
I have read the posts here and on the other thread, the direction it has taken is predictable and I do think that the majority of people are trying to offer information and opinions that will help in some way.

This became clear to me while digesting all of this.... researching blue, red and white lights (or whatever color you prefer) and what they mean is great for educational purposes and the "legal correctness" of boating etiquette but I'm not sure it matters in the instant case, or that it will ever matter based upon the realities of this venue and the people who boat in this region.

We are talking about the River and Lake Havasu. This is not a "shipping channel" with professional Captains and crew who make a living running commercial boats or Yachts where they are paid to know these things. Walk around Pirates or Topock on a holiday weekend (or any weekend for that matter), identify boat Owners/Drivers and ask them if they know what the "red navigation light vs. the green navigation light" means and I would bet that 99% of them would have absolutely ZERO clue, and that's not a criticism, its simply reality and we all know it.

What all of the Owners/Drivers have is an opportunity to employ common sense, and they can choose to use it, or substitute alternative poor decision making for what is abundantly clear to some of us, not others.

16 people on two relatively small boats
In the River (narrow body of water)
At night
At speed (at least one of the boats seems to have been at speed)
Busiest weekend of the year

For each line item above the risk factor goes up exponentially. Put them all together and you have the greatest risk for something really terrible happening, like what happened this weekend.
I would not consider 28 feet a relatively small boat. The Sleek they pulled out is not relatively small either.

So 10 on the deck and 6 on the Vee. At Mead last weekend I watched quite a few overloaded small boats idle out. I consider anything under 21 feet small.
 

namba860

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
5,260
Reaction score
5,014
Such a sad deal. Im have been trying to piece it all together as I read the post. Was one boat siting floating and another boat struck it. Most of the carnage appeared to be to the Hallett.
 

mobldj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,004
Reaction score
2,413
Some asked for my input, so here it is.

Navigation lights are required from sunset to sunrise and in periods of reduced visibility whenever a vessel is:

1. UNDERWAY: (not moored, anchored or aground) - Red/Green forward lights and all around white light. (can be a split mast-light and stern light)
Drifting with propulsion off is UNDERWAY. Anchor deployed, but dragging, is UNDERWAY

2. ANCHORED: 360 degree white light on single pole/mount (cannot be split, as above)

And I agree. There is no "gray area". If you consider yourself a boater and don't know this, one of the most basic requirements, then STAY ON THE FUCKING BEACH!


View attachment 679252

rip to all involved .guess the boater safety course everyone bitches about isnt so lame after all now is it.i took it and its all in the course.
 

Sharp Shooter

The "anti-yuppie"
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
5,675
rip to all involved .guess the boater safety course everyone bitches about isnt so lame after all now is it.i took it and its all in the course.
I'm waiting to hear if alcohol played a part. Safety class isn't worth a shit if you're drunk.
 

Xring01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
1,499
Reaction score
2,027
Food for thought from a different perspective, not pointing fingers...

I boat both lakes/rivers and offshore.. Spent alot of time Ocean fishing, leaving the dock at 10pm, running a boat all night, to arrive on the fishing grounds at greylight....

What I can tell you, is that offshore boaters in general, typically travel at about 10 knots at night.

Thats offshore when no one is around for miles/miles/miles.... and your 40 miles away from land, going 10 knots. Thats whats considered safe to us...

Running more than 10knots at night in a small body of water, with the potential of people everywhere, is just not safe... Offshore boaters would call that stupid...

Not trying to create drama between the groups... Just giving you guys something to consider in your future endeavors in running a boat at night.

Seriously, drive over to San Diego bay one night, watch all the boats coming and going, see how many are going above 10 knots... you will be there hours before you find one... maybe days... Yes I know the big boats cant go any faster to begin with, but the smaller craft that can... see what they are doing.
 
Last edited:

ONE-A-DAY

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
14,366
Reaction score
15,153
When we did the Topock night run we did 7 mph all the way back, it was boring as hell but at times still terrifying and we made mistakes reading the water completely sober, but at 7 mph we could laugh about those mistakes versus being dead.
 

lbhsbz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
6,036
Reaction score
10,747
Food for thought from a different perspective, not pointing fingers...

I boat both lakes/rivers and offshore.. Spent alot of time Ocean fishing, leaving the dock at 10pm, running a boat all night, to arrive on the fishing grounds at greylight....

What I can tell you, is that offshore boaters in general, typically travel at about 10 knots at night.

Thats offshore when no one is around for miles/miles/miles.... and your 40 miles away from land, going 10 knots. Thats whats considered safe to us...

Running more than 10knots at night in a small body of water, with the potential of people everywhere, is just not safe... Offshore boaters would call that stupid...

Not trying to create drama between the groups... Just giving you guys something to consider in your future endeavors in running a boat at night.
I agree with this. I've never boated at night except on salt. It seems unwise to run at any sort of speed when you typically can't see shit.
 

Blackmagic94

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
2,592
Reaction score
3,066
Night vision/radar changes all of that. I don’t see how someone will have a quarter million dollar Boat and be to cheap to spend 3-6k on decent nvg
 

69hondo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
820
Reaction score
1,423
comments on Mohave county sheriffs facebook page say "unconfirmed second body found id unknown."
 

ductape1000

Here.
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
8,945
Reaction score
4,625
Such a sad deal. Im have been trying to piece it all together as I read the post. Was one boat siting floating and another boat struck it. Most of the carnage appeared to be to the Hallett.
Sounds like the Hallett was floating in the river just south of Pirates. The Sleek came on plane going north after Topock headed to Pirates and the came together in the darkness.


Sent from a van down by the river.
 

69hondo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
820
Reaction score
1,423
Confirmed Mohave county sherrifs page second body of Brian Grabowski found. So sad
 

Xring01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Messages
1,499
Reaction score
2,027
Night vision/radar changes all of that. I don’t see how someone will have a quarter million dollar Boat and be to cheap to spend 3-6k on decent nvg
My offshore boat has
Raymarine C80 Combo unit that I typically just use for Radar...
I have a Garmin 12" Combo unit that I typically have split screen for GPS/FF
my UHF Radio also has GPS on it...
Raymarine AutoPilot

With all that, I still run at 10knots max at night.

My boat might be worth $45K best case scenario...

I would say that my electronics are getting old, and will be replaced in a year or two..
 

HB2Havasu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
2,141
Reaction score
3,643
I'm waiting to hear if alcohol played a part. Safety class isn't worth a shit if you're drunk.
Driving 50mph at night with no lights on, with little moonlight, on a very narrow waterway should answer your question regarding alcohol playing a part. I doubt anybody on these boards or anywhere for that matter has ever driven their boats on that narrow stretch of the river at those speeds even on a full moon while being sober without shitting themselves. It would be a frightening experience to say the least!!!

RIP for those that have lost their lives, and prayers for the missing to be found alive!
 

Magic34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
747
Reaction score
174
Seriously, drive over to San Diego bay one night, watch all the boats coming and going, see how many are going above 10 knots... you will be there hours before you find one... maybe days... Yes I know the big boats cant go any faster to begin with, but the smaller craft that can... see what they are doing.
I was a regular on SD bay the past five years up until July of this year and every weekend, we'd have a cruise from the north side of the bay south past the bridge after dinner on Saturday nights at Jimmys. About 10 NM.... My speed was 8.5-9 knots, always.
 

Magic34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
747
Reaction score
174
Night vision/radar changes all of that. I don’t see how someone will have a quarter million dollar Boat and be to cheap to spend 3-6k on decent nvg
Not true on radar. I almost hit a boat at night on Havasu by copper canyon running about 25 MPH. I was running full radar with Raymarine chartplotter... black/dark blue sailboat, no lights on their boat, nothing to reflect for radar, no mast reflector. If the object does not reflect, radar wont pick it up. There wasn't the slightest blip on my radar that night with regards to this boat... shoreline, buoys.. those all showed up, this 1 boat did not. Still remember it like yesterday, their spotlight scared the hell out of me and changed the way I boat at night.

I've been in fog of the So Cal coast where you couldn't see 100' in front of you... that's worse than night boating because there some big stuff out there that cant turn.
 

HALLETT BOY

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
4,570
Reaction score
4,157
They are talking about this on KFI right now . And a lot of speculation going on ...
 

Magic34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
747
Reaction score
174
One more thing... it may be easy to miss a light on if not paying enough attention. None of us have any idea if the Hallett had lights on or not. They could have had the anchor light on, but it was obstructed by someone standing in front of it since it isn't all that high on a deckboat. 10 people on a deckboat, floating, means people are likely standing and moving around.

Looks to me like the front of the Hallett was hit first, which means anchor light in the back being on with 1-2 people standing in front of it was the furthest thing on the Hallett seen by the approaching boat.

Everything is speculation, just dont be so quick to point fingers. The estimated 50 MPH of the Sleek is hard to swallow as an experienced boater, but all of the facts are not known.
 

Kailuaboy89

Aloha Airliner
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Messages
2,598
Reaction score
1,720
All I can say is this really sucks, and is sad to read, my heart and thoughts go out to the families involved....
 

Singleton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
12,154
Reaction score
11,276
Thoughts are with the family.
However, I am wondering and hopefully soon someone will be able to say who hit who.
Scary to read. However, I don’t like the quote from the girl, who was on the rear bench of the sleek, states the Hallet hit them. Based on video posted, hallet had a ton of bow damage, sleek had no bow damage. That tells me sleek was on plane and rode up and over the Hallet.
Very sad event, hopefully those impacted heal over time and we can all learn from this tragic event.
 

69hondo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
820
Reaction score
1,423
Scary to read. However, I don’t like the quote from the girl, who was on the rear bench of the sleek, states the Hallet hit them. Based on video posted, hallet had a ton of bow damage, sleek had no bow damage. That tells me sleek was on plane and rode up and over the Hallet.
Very sad event, hopefully those impacted heal over time and we can all learn from this tragic event.
I tend to agree with this comment.
 

LargeOrangeFont

Steers With Throttle
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
24,610
Reaction score
31,458
Thoughts are with the family.
However, I am wondering and hopefully soon someone will be able to say who hit who.


Scary to read. However, I don’t like the quote from the girl, who was on the rear bench of the sleek, states the Hallet hit them. Based on video posted, hallet had a ton of bow damage, sleek had no bow damage. That tells me sleek was on plane and rode up and over the Hallet.
Very sad event, hopefully those impacted heal over time and we can all learn from this tragic event.

The scary thing is that this type of conjecture is a part of EVERY news story. in the back of that Sleek you can't see forward anyway to see if you are hitting something or if something is hitting you. Shes not the driver, so certainly in her mind, unless they ran the boat aground, they were hit by something else.
 

Q4mtxUS

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
1,098
Reaction score
1,007
I'm certainly sad to hear of all of this. Thoughts and prayers go out to everybody
 

sirbob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
7,793
Reaction score
6,668
The news keep reporting that people ended up 5 miles down river form the crash. Including this latest link just posted. Can anybody confirm that people really drifted that far down river - and has anybody actually measured how far that would be in terms of land marks we may know?

I thinking from the crash site 5 miles would at least be down to the gorge? Further? Probably all the way through the gorge?

According to this the gorge is 3 1/2 miles from the bridge - so a drifting person would have been between the gorge and the sand bar. Can anybody confirm that some of the injured were picked up after drifting all the way through the gorge?

Screen Shot 2018-09-04 at 12.00.03 PM.png
 
Last edited:

Singleton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
12,154
Reaction score
11,276
The scary thing is that this type of conjecture is a part of EVERY news story. in the back of that Sleek you can't see forward anyway to see if you are hitting something or if something is hitting you. Shes not the driver, so certainly in her mind, unless they ran the boat aground, they were hit by something else.
The other thing I notice, no one from the Hallett is taking interviews yet more then 1 from the Sleek are talking. I get part of the recovery process is talking about the event, but IMO I would be staying low and saying nothing.

At this time, we still have 2 daughters, and those parents need closure.
 

Spot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
1,114
Reaction score
688
View attachment 679536 If anyone here is intimately connected to one of the victims family's that is expected to remain at University Hospital Las Vegas for an extended period, please contact me if that family needs housing to monitor their loved one. Send me a PM and I will provide my phone number and email so we can discuss details.


I have a luxury home fully furnished that sleeps 10 approximately three minutes away from the University trauma center in Las Vegas. At the moment it's vacant and available.

Using hotels where loved ones is not hospital can be extremely expensive not to mention a good gathering place for other family members coming to visit.

I did the same for a police officer's family that was shot after the mass shooting incident in Las Vegas.
So awesome, I hope one of these families take you up on that offer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

RiverDave

In it to win it
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
102,250
Reaction score
79,976
I have read the posts here and on the other thread, the direction it has taken is predictable and I do think that the majority of people are trying to offer information and opinions that will help in some way.

This became clear to me while digesting all of this.... researching blue, red and white lights (or whatever color you prefer) and what they mean is great for educational purposes and the "legal correctness" of boating etiquette but I'm not sure it matters in the instant case, or that it will ever matter based upon the realities of this venue and the people who boat in this region.

We are talking about the River and Lake Havasu. This is not a "shipping channel" with professional Captains and crew who make a living running commercial boats or Yachts where they are paid to know these things. Walk around Pirates or Topock on a holiday weekend (or any weekend for that matter), identify boat Owners/Drivers and ask them if they know what the "red navigation light vs. the green navigation light" means and I would bet that 99% of them would have absolutely ZERO clue, and that's not a criticism, its simply reality and we all know it.

What all of the Owners/Drivers have is an opportunity to employ common sense, and they can choose to use it, or substitute alternative poor decision making for what is abundantly clear to some of us, not others.

16 people on two relatively small boats
In the River (narrow body of water)
At night
At speed (at least one of the boats seems to have been at speed)
Busiest weekend of the year

For each line item above the risk factor goes up exponentially. Put them all together and you have the greatest risk for something really terrible happening, like what happened this weekend.
100% right
 

boatpi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
4,648
Let me add if A family member is planning on visiting University Hospital in Las Vegas for just a day or two, I would recommend the use the Palace station. it's less than five minutes away and completely refurbished, easy in easy out.

I passed my information onto someone here on the boards via a private message.

I was working on conveying the information to a family member that if they needed to stay and extensive period of time near the trauma center my home might be a good fit.

Just glad that I'm in a position where I might be able assist a family trying to deal with all of this.
 

cofooter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
3,110
Reaction score
3,539
The news keep reporting that people ended up 5 miles down river form the crash. Including this latest link just posted. Can anybody confirm that people really drifted that far down river - and has anybody actually measured how far that would be in terms of land marks we may know?

I thinking from the crash site 5 miles would at least be down to the gorge? Further? Probably all the way through the gorge?



According to this the gorge is 3 1/2 miles from the bridge - so a drifting person would have been between the gorge and the sand bar. Can anybody confirm that some of the injured were picked up after drifting all the way through the gorge?

View attachment 679757
Brian Grabowski, 50, was one of four victims still missing after two boats collided head on late Saturday morning. On Monday, dive teams located the body of 51-year-old Christine Lewis, of Visalia, California. The exact location on where she was found was not released publicly.

“My father was on the shoreline (on the California side) when he saw them pulling the body out of the water,” said Bridget Sandate. “It was south of Picture Rock near the horseshoe area before Havasu Lake and 125 yards from my dad’s shoreline.”

The distance from the crash scene to where Grabowski was reportedly found is approximately 18 miles.
 

JayBreww

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
1,607
The news keep reporting that people ended up 5 miles down river form the crash. Including this latest link just posted. Can anybody confirm that people really drifted that far down river - and has anybody actually measured how far that would be in terms of land marks we may know?

I thinking from the crash site 5 miles would at least be down to the gorge? Further? Probably all the way through the gorge?



According to this the gorge is 3 1/2 miles from the bridge - so a drifting person would have been between the gorge and the sand bar. Can anybody confirm that some of the injured were picked up after drifting all the way through the gorge?

View attachment 679757
Stacy posted a link on Facebook stating today’s find was 18 miles from the crash site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sirbob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
7,793
Reaction score
6,668
Brian Grabowski, 50, was one of four victims still missing after two boats collided head on late Saturday morning. On Monday, dive teams located the body of 51-year-old Christine Lewis, of Visalia, California. The exact location on where she was found was not released publicly.

“My father was on the shoreline (on the California side) when he saw them pulling the body out of the water,” said Bridget Sandate. “It was south of Picture Rock near the horseshoe area before Havasu Lake and 125 yards from my dad’s shoreline.”

The distance from the crash scene to where Grabowski was reportedly found is approximately 18 miles.
Stacy posted a link on Facebook stating today’s find was 18 miles from the crash site.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
wow 18 miles - that has to be all the way back to the mouth of the river at reed island???
 

namba860

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
5,260
Reaction score
5,014
18 Miles? Does that put them out of the river and into Havasu?
 

LargeOrangeFont

Steers With Throttle
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
24,610
Reaction score
31,458
The other thing I notice, no one from the Hallett is taking interviews yet more then 1 from the Sleek are talking. I get part of the recovery process is talking about the event, but IMO I would be staying low and saying nothing.

At this time, we still have 2 daughters, and those parents need closure.
Sadly the blame game has already started rolling. The driver of the Sleek does not want to be held civilly responsible or sued for 4 deaths, on top of everything else and whatever criminal charges come up, if he was even at fault at all.
 

LargeOrangeFont

Steers With Throttle
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
24,610
Reaction score
31,458
18 Miles? Does that put them out of the river and into Havasu?
Basically, yes, that is how I read it. If someone was “watching the body being recovered 120 yards from their shoreline” it sounds like the CA side of the lake, and that is roughly 18 miles away.
 

namba860

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
5,260
Reaction score
5,014
This is the picture painted in my mind. Hallett is floating no lights on down the river on the Ca. Side just past the entrance of Pirates Cove. Sleek craft is on plane heading toward Pirates Cove it also is on the Ca side and runs over the stbd. Front sponson of The Hallett. There was damage to the parting line of the Sleek where the deck and hull join on the port side. Does this sound correct to anyone else? What I can’t figure out was how everyone involved ended up in the water and some were found 5 Miles down river????
 

Rbcconst

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2016
Messages
1,216
Reaction score
746
Pretty sure the first set of buoys headed up river say no skiing or towing for the next 17 miles and that takes you right to the no wake zone before the topock marina
 

namba860

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
5,260
Reaction score
5,014
I understand that but that seems awfully far for all that were rescued that night. I would think 5 Miles down from Topock would be close to the sand bar?
 
Top