Help me with the Ski flag law!

[dnewps]

Boated Havasu Mead Mojave Powell my entire life. Now living on Lake Norman in North Carolina. Tons of lake lice rollbar boats and pontooners that have never run a boat in their life. Place gets a little scary with 80% noobs. place is busy on the weekends. There is no Ski flag law. As long as you have a rearview mirror you don’t need a spotter. And if you have a mirror your skier does not need a vest. My wife and I are working with a state senator to change the law. A lot of residents are pushing back. Like me they don’t want any new government intervention… But this one is pretty basic and reasonable in my opinion. Please help me with any videos new or old on how using a ski flag works. Believe it or not it’s getting confusing to them how and when you use it. When I tow my kids I use the flag… Since people are unfamiliar they think I’m in distress and come running over towards my boat and my swimmer. Also, any help with legal language in other jurisdictions would be appreciated. Or any other info you can think of that I can use to plead the case

I know the RDP brain trust can figure this one out

 

[pixrthis]

I’d personally would use a flag and follow the rules I grew up with but wouldn’t try to change the world I moved into.

 

[Kachina26]

This is why the rest of the country hates when Californians come to town.

 

[dnewps]

Ok...I’m listening. Am I being that guy?

 

[hallett21]

You can control whether your skier wears a vest, has a spotter and that the observer uses a flag.

So I’d say it’s a personal (and a good one) choice to do all of the above.

The flag is required by law in CA while pulling a skier. Most people could give a flying fuck on how to use them properly.

Making a new law won’t change anything imo.


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[dnewps]

I’d personally would use a flag and follow the rules I grew up with but wouldn’t try to change the world I moved into.

When I do the flag becomes a distress call instead of stay the F away from my swimmer

 

[hallett21]

When I do the flag becomes a distress call instead of stay the F away from my swimmer

Is the flag up the whole time or just when the skier is down in the water?


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[Todd Mohr]

If both the driver and skier are experienced, no need for a observer, I grew up skiing on the Sacramento Delta and we never used a flag. A hand in the air was the signal for skier in the water.
Please no new laws just be safe.

 

[dnewps]

Is the flag up the whole time or just when the skier is down in the water?


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Where are you from? This is a common response I am getting. When the skier or tuber etc is in the water the spotter tell the driver “down” and shows the stay the F away flag.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Ok...I’m listening. Am I being that guy?

This is why the rest of the country hates when Californians come to town.

Yes. Just leave it alone. Keep an air horn within reach if other vessels appear to be in a trajectory to put you and yours in jeopardy.

Otherwise, you move somewhere new, obey their laws. Don't try to add to them.

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[Kachina26]

Ok...I’m listening. Am I being that guy?

Yes.

 

[hallett21]

Where are you from? This is a common response I am getting. When the skier or tuber etc is in the water the spotter tell the driver “down” and shows the stay the F away flag.

Ca/AZ

I ask because we routinely see flags for anchored boats with swimmers, flags that are permanently in the up position/mounted to wakeboard tower etc.

Which technically aren’t how the flag is supposed to be used.


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[94Nautique]

Boated Havasu Mead Mojave Powell my entire life. Now living on Lake Norman in North Carolina. Tons of lake lice rollbar boats and pontooners that have never run a boat in their life. Place gets a little scary with 80% noobs. place is busy on the weekends. There is no Ski flag law. As long as you have a rearview mirror you don’t need a spotter. And if you have a mirror your skier does not need a vest. My wife and I are working with a state senator to change the law. A lot of residents are pushing back. Like me they don’t want any new government intervention… But this one is pretty basic and reasonable in my opinion. Please help me with any videos new or old on how using a ski flag works. Believe it or not it’s getting confusing to them how and when you use it. When I tow my kids I use the flag… Since people are unfamiliar they think I’m in distress and come running over towards my boat and my swimmer. Also, any help with legal language in other jurisdictions would be appreciated. Or any other info you can think of that I can use to plead the case

I know the RDP brain trust can figure this one out

Step away from the slippery slope of legal action against ANY boaters.

ANY. You also may want to move back to commiefornia and don’t let anyone know you are fucking with their system.

There is a legendary guy that goes around and sinks wakeboats, it’s called justice, and the law only gets in the way of justice. You are talking about Darwinism, step away.

 

[Dana757]

I grew up on a lake in N Indiana and there is no ski flag law there. North Carolina was prolly doing just fine before you came into town. Yeah, I would think you are being "that guy".

 

[dnewps]

Yes. Just leave it alone. Keep an air horn within reach if other vessels appear to be in a trajectory to put you and yours in jeopardy.

Otherwise, you move somewhere new, obey their laws. Don't try to add to them.

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Well...this is not what I expected to hear but I appreciate you saying it. Just thought that maybe the law was behind the times. Lake Norman 25 years ago was a way out place with little traffic. Now tons of people moving in without boat experience. what I am really after is some basic manners...maybe a law is not the way to get there?/??

 

[Taboma]

FYI --- check out this USCG link that shows a chart of various state "Water Ski" regs. I found it interesting that the vast majority of states east of the Rockies do not require a Skier Down flag --- seems it's a western states reg.
I do not find any exemption in Georgia boating regs for a mirror replacing the reg for the skier wearing a PFD --- the wide angle mirror does however replace the need for an observer as you stated. Except on a PWC, where an observer is always required.
I do notice it recommends that the skier display the ski in an upright position when down, something I was taught as a child up at Lake Arrowhead, until the boat circles back to offer protection.

I think trying to initiate a new Reg requiring a skier down flag will be tough to sell, considering only a few states require it and nobody will know what it means anyway.

Even in AZ I see it abused all the time by newbies, they run around towing their kids on a tube with the flag fixed up all the time.

State Boating Laws

www.uscgboating.org

 

[dnewps]

I grew up on a lake in N Indiana and there is no ski flag law there. North Carolina was prolly doing just fine before you came into town. Yeah, I would think you are being "that guy".

Well not exactly. NC is fine but this Lake in particular is busy as shit. kids run over in a tube, guy died last weekend no vest etc. I’m mostly concerned with boater etiquette. A way to tell other boaters I have a kid in the water and kindly stay away. I didn’t learn this in CA. Boated mostly Mead where it’s wide open. Guess this law is not the norm???

 

[SJP]

It starts with the ski flags. Yes you are being that guy.

 

[Bobby V]

I wonder if @YoPengo will chime in. He is a CA. guy that sells boats on Lake Norman.

 

[dnewps]

It starts with the ski flags. Yes you are being that guy.

Ok. I have heard enough. Didn’t realize I was being that guy. If the west coaster boaters are saying the same thing it’s not about unfamiliarity. maybe laws and enforcement is not the way to go. Been getting the same response from Conservatives on this end. Calling our Senator friend now to pull the plug. Vote is next Tue.

Thank you for your honest opinions!

 

[dnewps]

I wonder if @YoPengo will chime in. He is a CA. guy that sells boats on Lake Norman.

Yeah I think his shop is down the street in front of the high school.

 

[RadMan]

Wow
Throwing in the towel after one morning of RDP. Curious how many hours you put into this.
I grew up boating in Texas, only place I ever boated where a flag would have been a good idea is Lake Austin on a weekend. Otherwise I could always get away from others somehow to more safely pull someone.

RDP
Keeping America Great Again

 

[lbhsbz]

There are 2 kinds of people that cause shit to go bad on the water....those that know the rules but ignore them, and those that have no idea what the rules are. You’ll never reach the first group...so don’t waste time trying....they’ll also ignore any new laws that are made.

If the problem appears to be renters, maybe talk to the rental places and have some printouts made outlining the “basics of boating” that they can glance over while standing at the counter renting their boat...I think that would be most effective.

 

[Kachina26]

You can't legislate common sense or common courtesy.

 

[white tortilla]

I don’t really see the need for a flag. If your skiing/tubing someone in a safe situation you should be able to turn around and get back to them in 10-20 seconds. They would either have a life vest on which should be visible or holding a ski/wakeboard above the surface to identify. If your pulling people and it’s so busy around you that you think they are going to get run over, maybe it’s not the right time to be pulling someone. We ski all the time lower river below parker and never need a flag. If I’m worried that it’s that busy that they are going to get run over before I’m back next to them it’s probably too busy. I’m against making more laws to save people from themselves. If the locals are good with it leave it be.

 

[dnewps]

Wow
Throwing in the towel after one morning of RDP. Curious how many hours you put into this.
I grew up boating in Texas, only place I ever boated where a flag would have been a good idea is Lake Austin on a weekend. Otherwise I could always get away from others somehow to more safely pull someone.

RDP
Keeping America Great Again

it’s the overwhelming majority here saying the same thing. I thought it was just a behind the times thing, or noobie thing, or just plain unfamiliarity. So a few posts on RDP from a community that is experienced with this law and know their stuff is the icing on the cake...or the straw that broke the camels back. Yeah....lots of hours.

 

[cyclone]

I grew up in Socal and recently moved to Georgia. When I put up my orange flag other boaters come check to see if I'm broke down. They don't see the correlation between the flag and the skier in the water. its very strange.

 

[Taboma]

Well not exactly. NC is fine but this Lake in particular is busy as shit. kids run over in a tube, guy died last weekend no vest etc. I’m mostly concerned with boater etiquette. A way to tell other boaters I have a kid in the water and kindly stay away. I didn’t learn this in CA. Boated mostly Mead where it’s wide open. Guess this law is not the norm???

I don't see any exemption regarding a mirror precluding wearing a vest.
Did you check out this summary of regulations regarding towing skiiers ?

State Boating Laws

www.uscgboating.org

 

[Ziggy]

Assimilate yourself to the local boater etiquette I suppose.
I'm sure we all understand your reasoning and concerns especially us westies.
But hey, at least you know they'll come to your aid when you throw up the flag.

 

[rrrr]

FYI --- check out this USCG link that shows a chart of various state "Water Ski" regs.

State Boating Laws

www.uscgboating.org

I'm astounded by the number of states that don't require a towed individual to wear a PFD. An incident with someone sustaining a minor injury or having their wind knocked out can easily become a drowning fatality.

I get the reluctance to encourage more laws on boaters, but this is a basic safety issue. We all know there's a part of the boating population that is incurably stupid. I cringe at the idea someone can tow a tube with kids riding it unprotected by a PFD.

 

[sintax]

Well not exactly. NC is fine but this Lake in particular is busy as shit. kids run over in a tube, guy died last weekend no vest etc. I’m mostly concerned with boater etiquette. A way to tell other boaters I have a kid in the water and kindly stay away. I didn’t learn this in CA. Boated mostly Mead where it’s wide open. Guess this law is not the norm???

maybe its not wise to tubing if its that busy? You dont see me tossing me kids into a tube and dragging them in the busy part of the Strip on Memorial Day weekend. If you care so much for the well being, maybe find a more remote / quiet lake?

new laws are not the answer, and thats exactly whats wrong with this country, everything thinks laws fix shit, but its just excuses for more lawyers, more cops, and more pocket lining.

 

[dnewps]

I don’t really see the need for a flag. If your skiing/tubing someone in a safe situation you should be able to turn around and get back to them in 10-20 seconds. They would either have a life vest on which should be visible or holding a ski/wakeboard above the surface to identify. If your pulling people and it’s so busy around you that you think they are going to get run over, maybe it’s not the right time to be pulling someone. We ski all the time lower river below parker and never need a flag. If I’m worried that it’s that busy that they are going to get run over before I’m back next to them it’s probably too busy. I’m against making more laws to save people from themselves. If the locals are good with it leave it be.

Not saving people from themselves. It’s just manners...flag says stay away from my swimmer. Also, When I’m driving...I want to know if you have a swimmer. But I see your point about a law to go about it. I don’t pull when it’s crazy busy...but the lake is full of blind corners etc. people shoot out of everywhere going wrong direction etc. maybe another law won’t work but it’s a free for all on the lake.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't see any exemption regarding a mirror precluding wearing a vest.
Did you check out this summary of regulations regarding towing skiiers ?

State Boating Laws

www.uscgboating.org

View attachment 880948

He's in North Carolina

 

[dnewps]

maybe its not wise to tubing if its that busy? You dont see me tossing me kids into a tube and dragging them in the busy part of the Strip on Memorial Day weekend. If you care so much for the well being, maybe find a more remote / quiet lake?

new laws are not the answer, and thats exactly whats wrong with this country, everything thinks laws fix shit, but its just excuses for more lawyers, more cops, and more pocket lining.

Even when it’s not busy people are constantly doing stupid shit. It’s a noob boater lack of manners thing. maybe I can help out locally with some of the groups that teach boater safety???? It’s a shit show.

 

[Flying_Lavey]

Ok. I have heard enough. Didn’t realize I was being that guy. If the west coaster boaters are saying the same thing it’s not about unfamiliarity. maybe laws and enforcement is not the way to go. Been getting the same response from Conservatives on this end. Calling our Senator friend now to pull the plug. Vote is next Tue.

Thank you for your honest opinions!

Yeah, instead of maybe trying to pass a law that likely wouldn't help much, it might be more beneficial to have Marinas/rental places pass out literature with the current laws and maybe some etiquette listed.

I was always taught a ski flag being held up is for a skier down while someone waving said flag is a distress signal. Maybe trying to get something like that on some flyers may do more good.

I'd maybe talk to some local boaters and try to compile a list of common local etiquette for said flyers.

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[Ziggy]

Even when it’s not busy people are constantly doing stupid shit. It’s a noob boater lack of manners thing. maybe I can help out locally with some of the groups that teach boater safety???? It’s a shit show.

I don't doubt that some of their rules are antiquated and do not address todays busier waterways and activities.

 

[f12517]

Ok...I’m listening. Am I being that guy?

Yes....
"the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
This is no different than helmet laws, gun laws, smoking laws. They all started because someone thought it was "common sense"

 

[dribble]

Set an example. This would be no different then moving to a non motorcycle helmet state and trying to change the law to require helmets because YOU feel they save lives. Instead just wear your helmet when you ride and be extra vigilant to watch out for those who still choose to live free.

 

[Taboma]

I'm astounded by the number of states that don't require a towed individual to wear a PFD. An incident with someone sustaining a minor injury or having their wind knocked out can easily become a drowning fatality.

I get the reluctance to encourage more laws on boaters, but this is a basic safety issue. We all know there's a part of the boating population that is incurably stupid. I cringe at the idea someone can tow a tube with kids riding it unprotected by a PFD.

Not sure how old that USCG document is, I know for example that Arizona requires PFD if you're being towed and this chart shows "No" -- so not sure how many others might have changed that reg ??

 

[dnewps]

Set an example. This would be no different then moving to a non motorcycle helmet state and trying to change the law to require helmets because YOU feel they save lives. Instead just wear your helmet when you ride and be extra vigilant to watch out for those who still choose to live free.

To be fair it is different. I have a right to determine my own safety. When I ride I always wear a helmet but enjoy the freedom not to. Does someone have a right to buzz your skier? If it was your kid In the water you Might chase him down and kick his ass. What if he said he didn’t see him? See where I’m going?

 

[dnewps]

Not sure how old that USCG document is, I know for example that Arizona requires PFD if you're being towed and this chart shows "No" -- so not sure how many others might have changed that reg ??

Rule in NC is vest OR spotter OR mirror. So ski boat with one guy in the boat pulling a skier with no vest is legal as long as you have a mirror. If you want to do that stupid shit...fine. I just don’t want to be the guy to run you over...flag would help. And when I ski my kids I’m going to do it as safe as I reasonably can. vest, spotter, flag. But when I put that flag up it would be nice if the other boater knew what I was saying to them....please keep your distance. But maybe a new rule is not the way.

 

[dribble]

To be fair it is different. I have a right to determine my own safety. When I ride I always wear a helmet but enjoy the freedom not to. Does someone have a right to buzz your skier? If it was your kid In the water you Might chase him down and kick his ass. What if he said he didn’t see him? See where I’m going?

That's where the extra vigilance comes in. Most people know there's a reason for the flag, law or not. The fact is that many free states don't want people to come in and try to change what they feel has worked for them their entire life. That's why they hate Californians. Keeping a loud air horn in reach would also help. Other than tha,t enjoy the freedoms that Newsom brown and the rest the jackasses running California are chipping away at.

 

[twocents]

Some ski flag trivia. I don't have proof of this but I believe the use of a 'ski flag' began in the early 1950s at the McKenzie Water Ski School on Lake Arrowhead. Originally, the ski school made and sold ski flags from their ski dock as a means of raising money to support the Lake Arrowhead Water Ski Club. I believe we got our first ski flag from them around 1955 or '56 and the ski flag rule was written in to the Lake's boat operator annual test. How it got to be a California state law, I have no idea.

 

[bocco]

I believe the Ca law is that the flag just indicates a person in the water. Skiing or peeing doesn't matter. So even if you are in a quiet cove floating you need a flag up if someone is swimming.

 

[dnewps]

That's where the extra vigilance comes in. Most people know there's a reason for the flag, law or not. The fact is that many free states don't want people to come in and try to change what they feel has worked for them their entire life. That's why they hate Californians. Keeping a loud air horn in reach would also help. Other than tha,t enjoy the freedoms that Newsom brown and the rest the jackasses running California are chipping away at.

just sucks that nobody around here seems to know what the flag my spotter is holding actually means. And way too many either don’t see I have a down skier or don’t give a shit. Ironically the concerned boaters come closer to see if you need help. But I see that a law or rule is not the answer.

Real time update: we just learned from the senator the bill has been pulled. Turns out a rule just for Norman is not possible since technically it’s private owned by duke energy. Any law would have to be state wide and that makes no sense for some of the non busy lakes.

 

[hallett21]

I believe the Ca law is that the flag just indicates a person in the water. Skiing or peeing doesn't matter. So even if you are in a quiet cove floating you need a flag up if someone is swimming.

CA law says flag is for skier and equipment related to skier in the water.


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[woodagain]

To be fair it is different. I have a right to determine my own safety. When I ride I always wear a helmet but enjoy the freedom not to. Does someone have a right to buzz your skier? If it was your kid In the water you Might chase him down and kick his ass. What if he said he didn’t see him? See where I’m going?

I’d use a flag just to let another boater know.
He may see the skier but the rope can be
Incredibly dangerous if the boater runs over it to both the skier and possibly and the tow boat.
You can’t fix an idiot but you can sometimes get their attention.
These guys running around with their flag up while towing and just running around need a little education, mainly observed on wakeboard boats it seems. I wouldn’t want to pull my skier with an observer while the guy near me has no observer and is looking
Back in his mirror .
Maybe this is your chance to educate people without getting the government involved.

 

[Taboma]

Rule in NC is vest OR spotter OR mirror. So ski boat with one guy in the boat pulling a skier with no vest is legal as long as you have a mirror. If you want to do that stupid shit...fine. I just don’t want to be the guy to run you over...flag would help. And when I ski my kids I’m going to do it as safe as I reasonably can. vest, spotter, flag. But when I put that flag up it would be nice if the other boater knew what I was saying to them....please keep your distance. But maybe a new rule is not the way.

Sorry, not sure why I was checking GA regs, when Norman is in NC -- oops. I do see what you mean about the lax PFD regs when water skiing --- strange, unsafe and plain dumb.

 

[evantwheeler]

Not saving people from themselves. It’s just manners...flag says stay away from my swimmer. Also, When I’m driving...I want to know if you have a swimmer. But I see your point about a law to go about it. I don’t pull when it’s crazy busy...but the lake is full of blind corners etc. people shoot out of everywhere going wrong direction etc. maybe another law won’t work but it’s a free for all on the lake.

I can appreciate your concern and it sounds like you truly have the best interest of all the folks participating in water sports on that lake with your efforts to pass legislation requiring a flag for a swimmer in the water. Unfortunately, I think the root of the problem is that you "moved to a yard where the grass really isn't greener". There are probably a large number of Pros to the NC area you moved to vs. where you came from, but this one Con should not become your pet project to make others assimilate to what you are used to coming from the West. Find another lake or maybe put your efforts into a community group and public awareness vs. actual legislation.

 

[2Driver]

Below my initial comments is from the AZGF boat rules.

The flag is for skier or tow-ee down only. Not for the rope in the water or general floating down from the dam or swimmers. This has been debated before. Some boaters fly the flag when just floating or for people swimming around the boat. I'm not sure it hurts or helps. Maybe Boatcop can tell us nut swingers what's what.


Vessels towing person(s) on water skis or a similar device must carry and use a bright red or orange skier-down flag that is at least 12 x 12 inches in size and mounted on a handle. The observer must continu- ously observe the skier(s) and display a skier-down flag whenever a skier is in the water after falling or while preparing to ski.
■ If towing a skier with a PWC, the same water-skiing laws apply.