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Honest question for RDP...

lakemadness

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Only with insufficient assets😉

If you’re a 1%er in CA ($7.5M in assets), and you were smart enough to get there, but can’t make it work in retirement, there’s something wrong.
Ok, you’re talking 1%er lol.

At the end of the day a 401k isn’t wealth.
 

LowRiver2

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Ok, you’re talking 1%er lol.

At the end of the day a 401k isn’t wealth.
No
It’s a mindset that put $1 million or more into a Middle class worker’s portfolio when they retire.
That coupled with $1million in DROP money and 90% pension pay for life makes for a comfortable life, not a wealthy one.
 

lakemadness

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No
It’s a mindset that put $1 million or more into a Middle class worker’s portfolio when they retire.
That coupled with $1million in DROP money and 90% pension pay for life makes for a comfortable life, not a wealthy one.
Agreed. I didn’t say it was wealthy. Completely different.
 

clarence

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True in that regard. But that’s not entirely wealth in my opinion. Doesn’t define it.

In a majority of situations the drawdown will exceed the appreciation when you’re in retirement.
1. Not so:

... the [4%] safe withdrawal rate actually has a 96% probability of leaving more than 100% of the original starting principal!


Over 2/3rds of the time the retiree finishes the 30-year time horizon still having more-than-double their starting principal. The median wealth at the end – on top of the 4% rule with inflation-adjusted spending – is almost 2.8X starting principal.


2. Unless you define wealth as generational, who cares?
 

lakemadness

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1. Not so:

... the [4%] safe withdrawal rate actually has a 96% probability of leaving more than 100% of the original starting principal!


Over 2/3rds of the time the retiree finishes the 30-year time horizon still having more-than-double their starting principal. The median wealth at the end – on top of the 4% rule with inflation-adjusted spending – is almost 2.8X starting principal.


2. Unless you define wealth as generational, who cares?
My goal is generational, yes.
 

YeahYeah01

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I’m surprised no one has brought this up during this thread but I believe age makes a big difference. The 30 year old who makes a 150k a year will be in a lot different financial position than a 50+ year old who has made a 150k for 20 years. Not only does the 50 year old more than likely have a house with a ton more equity that would also be paid off shortly but he has had time to save over 20 years. To a salesman I would assume on paper they are equals but when it comes to finances there is probably a huge gap. I am probably at the bottom of the barrel in RDP income and having to enter the housing market in this economy doesn’t help. At the end of the day life is short and you can’t take your money with you, buy what makes you and your family happy.
I was just thinking about this as I was reading. My wife and I do pretty well and have very modest debt. We make more then we did 5 years ago but honestly not that much more.

We are Looking for a river house and kicking my self for not doing it 3 or 4 years ago. But 3 or 4 years ago I had the mine set that we couldn't afford it. We definitely could have.
 

clarence

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My goal is generational, yes.
So if you retire with $2.5M (about what the Charles Schwab’s annual Modern Wealth Survey defines as "wealthy" and reasonably attainable by most with some effort) that gives you $100k/year at 4% SWR (before SS, etc.), there's a decent chance you'll die after 30 years with $7M.

That's not enough? How many children do you have?
 

lakemadness

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So if you retire with $2.5M (about what the Charles Schwab’s annual Modern Wealth Survey defines as "wealthy" and reasonably attainable by most with some effort) that gives you $100k/year at 4% SWR (before SS, etc.), there's a decent chance you'll die after 30 years with $7M.

That's not enough? How many children do you have?
I have one daughter.
 

RiverDave

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I think you would be quite surprised to know what the partners at Deloitte & Touche make...

I have a good friend who was an investment manager for a large firm. He's 50 something and has been retired awhile now. House in Vegas, house in San Gabriel, a whole bunch of 50k+ classic cars, and everything he has is paid for.

Him and his finance buds now flip businesses for a living. And I'm not talking about garages and liquor stores. Business that need BIG cash infusions to survive.

They invest millions and the flip em buh bye.

They do this shit for fun, you know, like the rest of us flip cars and boats?

He could buy any boat he wants. But doesn't need to. His brother has a house and boat in Havasu he can use anytime he wants.

😉
You jist agreed with what I said in an effort to argue what I said.. lol

saving and investing are two different things
 

RiverDave

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Sure you can. Investing a significant fraction (20%) of one's salary over time pretty much guarantees wealth by retirement age.

It just is hard to see at first, as compounding works similarly to Hemingway's bankruptcy (there's a passage in The Sun Also Rises in which someone is asked how he went bankrupt. “Two ways,” he answers. “Gradually, then suddenly.”).
read above
 

RiverDave

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With all this talk about wealth and retirement
after some simple math looks like I only have to work another 97 years and then I’ll be ready to retire......
lol right??
 
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RiverDave

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So if you retire with $2.5M (about what the Charles Schwab’s annual Modern Wealth Survey defines as "wealthy" and reasonably attainable by most with some effort) that gives you $100k/year at 4% SWR (before SS, etc.), there's a decent chance you'll die after 30 years with $7M.

That's not enough? How many children do you have?
That answer really depends on your lifestyle.
 

Icky

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I'm gonna put all my money into slot machines, this working thing is over rated
Well.......I need a hand pay to break even.....i might need to work more now
 

badgas

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Wealthy people won’t rely on a 401k.
That is not true. Some wealthy poeple really do rely on thier 401K's. You would be surprised how many poeple have really boring potfolios. A paid for home worth 1 million plus , paid for cars, 2-3 million in reiremennt accounts and that's it. I guess a 3-4 milllion dollar net worth is not wealthy ?

Again, poeple get to choose. Some people hate rental property and some people hate the stock market. I always coach poeple to do both but not everyone wants that.

All this mindset talk is fun but math is math and if you have millions more in assets than you do liabilities then you have wealth. If you want to argure how much wealth should one have then you this could go on for days.
 

DRYHEAT

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It’s times like this I find it easier to be poor white trash.😂

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say some of you have a much different idea of wealth than I do.😊

I just love it when what is right for one members plan is shit on by another. It’s all relative folks.
There is always someone looking down at you like you’re a pile of shit and on the other end of the spectrum someone looking up to you like you’ve got more than anybody in the world.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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That is not true. Some wealthy poeple really do rely on thier 401K's. You would be surprised how many poeple have really boring potfolios. A paid for home worth 1 million plus , paid for cars, 2-3 million in reiremennt accounts and that's it. I guess a 3-4 milllion dollar net worth is not wealthy ?

Again, poeple get to choose. Some people hate rental property and some people hate the stock market. I always coach poeple to do both but not everyone wants that.

All this mindset talk is fun but math is math and if you have millions more in assets than you do liabilities then you have wealth. If you want to argure how much wealth should one have then you this could go on for days.
It’s already gone on for days :)

At what age should a person attain that 1,2,3,4 and 5 million dollar net worth?
 

lakemadness

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That is not true. Some wealthy poeple really do rely on thier 401K's. You would be surprised how many poeple have really boring potfolios. A paid for home worth 1 million plus , paid for cars, 2-3 million in reiremennt accounts and that's it. I guess a 3-4 milllion dollar net worth is not wealthy ?

Again, poeple get to choose. Some people hate rental property and some people hate the stock market. I always coach poeple to do both but not everyone wants that.

All this mindset talk is fun but math is math and if you have millions more in assets than you do liabilities then you have wealth. If you want to argure how much wealth should one have then you this could go on for days.
I disagree, a wealthy family will have much more working for them than a 401k. So, no they aren’t relying on a retirement fund. They have wherewithal to earn more via multiple other sources.

I large portion of what I consider wealth is multiple streams of passive income that will live on. To me that lines up with the definition of wealth much more so than a w2 employee putting some money away in a retirement fund.
 

badgas

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It’s already gone on for days :)

At what age should a person attain that 1,2,3,4 and 5 million dollar net worth?
Yore right !

It has gone for days : )

What age ? The sooner the better. But like RD said it depends on lifestyle and burn rate. I know people who need to make $50K per month to break even. I don't know how they sleep at night.
 

badgas

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I disagree, a wealthy family will have much more working for them than a 401k. So, no they aren’t relying on a retirement fund. They have wherewithal to earn more via multiple other sources.

I large portion of what I consider wealth is multiple streams of passive income that will live on. To me that lines up with the definition of wealth much more so than a w2 employee putting some money away in a retirement fund.
I agree with you in that " WE " would both advise poeple to have other investments and income streams. My point was that not everyone chooses to run their finances that way and yet they are still very wealthy.
 

bowtiejunkie

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I like this formula from the book “The Millionaire Next Door”:

[Your age] x [pre-tax annual household income from all sources, except inheritances] / 10 = your "expected" net worth

If your net worth is twice the result, you are on your way to building wealth.

many of the wealthiest people on Forbes list of world’s wealthiest people have their fortunes tied to stock (the company they founded, for example). Certainly, most have diversified into other streams of income.

Everyone has their own opinion on what is wealthy. IMO, it’s a person that has a level of assets creating enough income they they no longer need to work to maintain their lifestyle, and are happy doing so. It doesn’t matter what the underlying assets are, just as long as they are casting off enough income to keep increasing your net worth. Wealthy also are careful with their spending.

I would say a rich person is burning money and their net worth isn’t that great. I mean, they could be earning $1,000,000 a year, assets of $10MM, and liabilities of $8MM, while burning $1,100,000 a year. That’s probably not wealthy. The guy who quit his job with $1MM in assets, $0 in liabilities, earning $150,000 off the assets, and burning $50,000 a year, could be said to be wealthy. Optics are one thing (flashy toys, big houses, etc), but it definitely doesn’t equate to wealthy universally.
 

RiverDave

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It’s times like this I find it easier to be poor white trash.😂

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say some of you have a much different idea of wealth than I do.😊

I just love it when what is right for one members plan is shit on by another. It’s all relative folks.
There is always someone looking down at you like you’re a pile of shit and on the other end of the spectrum someone looking up to you like you’ve got more than anybody in the world.
I didn’t see anyone in this thread shit in anyone’s plan.. ???

Ironically enough I haven’t seen any of the people I know to be what I would consider “wealthy” to post in this thread either..
 
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RiverDave

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All this mindset talk is fun but math is math and if you have millions more in assets than you do liabilities then you have wealth. If you want to argure how much wealth should one have then you this could go on for days.
What are assets? Are my businesses assets? I think you know where I’m going with that.

Assets aren’t really worth anything until you sell them.
 

Brokeboatin221

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Shit now a days work at McDonald’s marry an illegal for health insurance and welfare and you can afford anything. When the 15.00 ah hour thing starts that’s my plan. Right now I just pay for everyone else to sit on their asses. My “idea” of wealth isn’t what others call wealth just like owning a “classic boat”. I’m not impressed by someone’s brand new flamin paint job eliminator or their 5 or 6 series BMW. Content with who I am And where I am!
 

LargeOrangeFont

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I like this formula from the book “The Millionaire Next Door”:

[Your age] x [pre-tax annual household income from all sources, except inheritances] / 10 = your "expected" net worth

If your net worth is twice the result, you are on your way to building wealth.

many of the wealthiest people on Forbes list of world’s wealthiest people have their fortunes tied to stock (the company they founded, for example). Certainly, most have diversified into other streams of income.

Everyone has their own opinion on what is wealthy. IMO, it’s a person that has a level of assets creating enough income they they no longer need to work to maintain their lifestyle, and are happy doing so. It doesn’t matter what the underlying assets are, just as long as they are casting off enough income to keep increasing your net worth. Wealthy also are careful with their spending.

I would say a rich person is burning money and their net worth isn’t that great. I mean, they could be earning $1,000,000 a year, assets of $10MM, and liabilities of $8MM, while burning $1,100,000 a year. That’s probably not wealthy. The guy who quit his job with $1MM in assets, $0 in liabilities, earning $150,000 off the assets, and burning $50,000 a year, could be said to be wealthy. Optics are one thing (flashy toys, big houses, etc), but it definitely doesn’t equate to wealthy universally.
I have heard that formula as well. I’m right about at 2x of that equation.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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What are assets? Are my businesses assets? I think you know where I’m going with that.

Assets aren’t really worth anything until you sell them.
That is only half the equation. Your businesses are assets if they have value. And that value is only what someone is willing to pay. Those businesses also have liabilities and incomes associated with them.
 
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badgas

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I like this formula from the book “The Millionaire Next Door”:

[Your age] x [pre-tax annual household income from all sources, except inheritances] / 10 = your "expected" net worth

If your net worth is twice the result, you are on your way to building wealth.

many of the wealthiest people on Forbes list of world’s wealthiest people have their fortunes tied to stock (the company they founded, for example). Certainly, most have diversified into other streams of income.

Everyone has their own opinion on what is wealthy. IMO, it’s a person that has a level of assets creating enough income they they no longer need to work to maintain their lifestyle, and are happy doing so. It doesn’t matter what the underlying assets are, just as long as they are casting off enough income to keep increasing your net worth. Wealthy also are careful with their spending.

I would say a rich person is burning money and their net worth isn’t that great. I mean, they could be earning $1,000,000 a year, assets of $10MM, and liabilities of $8MM, while burning $1,100,000 a year. That’s probably not wealthy. The guy who quit his job with $1MM in assets, $0 in liabilities, earning $150,000 off the assets, and burning $50,000 a year, could be said to be wealthy. Optics are one thing (flashy toys, big houses, etc), but it definitely doesn’t equate to wealthy universally.
That is great book. The research was done in 1980 and still stands up. If you want to read another good one that expands the reseach to over 10,000 Amercian Millionaires check out " Everyday Millionaires " by Chris Hogan
 

badgas

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What are assets? Are my businesses assets? I think you know where I’m going with that.

Assets aren’t really worth anything until you sell them.
If your business can be sold for positive cash then yes it is an asset, The best kind actually because they also produce income vs. say a $10K extra car setting in the garage.

I would call a 2 million dollar 401k an asset, I would also call a paid off chunk of real estate an asset as well as RDP.com

All different but all have a cash value.
 

RiverDave

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Shit now a days work at McDonald’s marry an illegal for health insurance and welfare and you can afford anything. When the 15.00 ah hour thing starts that’s my plan. Right now I just pay for everyone else to sit on their asses. My “idea” of wealth isn’t what others call wealth just like owning a “classic boat”. I’m not impressed by someone’s brand new flamin paint job eliminator or their 5 or 6 series BMW. Content with who I am And where I am!
While I ultimately 100% agree with you, life isn’t about money.. This particular thread is..

I don’t think it was intended or even presented as some dick measuring contest.. If it was believe me there is some whale dicks on rdp. Lol.

I think it’s just a group of middle class to upper middle class guys wondering what it takes to break into upper class. Nothing wrong with talking about it and giving opinions.

Truthfully I find the conversation refreshing because usually nobody is ever willing to talk about this stuff at all. If I can learn anything from it to make more money I know I’d be appreciative..


I hesitate to try and teach anyone because I don’t think I’m in an experienced enough or financial position to do so.

I have observed good friends though that have made more money in a month then I will
Make in a lifetime and try to glean off them what I can and I sure as shit listen when they talk.
 

lakemadness

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I like this formula from the book “The Millionaire Next Door”:

[Your age] x [pre-tax annual household income from all sources, except inheritances] / 10 = your "expected" net worth

If your net worth is twice the result, you are on your way to building wealth.

many of the wealthiest people on Forbes list of world’s wealthiest people have their fortunes tied to stock (the company they founded, for example). Certainly, most have diversified into other streams of income.

Everyone has their own opinion on what is wealthy. IMO, it’s a person that has a level of assets creating enough income they they no longer need to work to maintain their lifestyle, and are happy doing so. It doesn’t matter what the underlying assets are, just as long as they are casting off enough income to keep increasing your net worth. Wealthy also are careful with their spending.

I would say a rich person is burning money and their net worth isn’t that great. I mean, they could be earning $1,000,000 a year, assets of $10MM, and liabilities of $8MM, while burning $1,100,000 a year. That’s probably not wealthy. The guy who quit his job with $1MM in assets, $0 in liabilities, earning $150,000 off the assets, and burning $50,000 a year, could be said to be wealthy. Optics are one thing (flashy toys, big houses, etc), but it definitely doesn’t equate to wealthy universally.
Well said.

I hadn’t heard of that formula.
 

clarence

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That answer really depends on your lifestyle.
Sure.

But my point is that it is pretty easy to achieve what most would define as "wealth" by simply living beneath their means and investing the difference. It does not require much in the way of discipline or mindset - simply contribute to your 401k and IRA (or the like) and invest in a Target Retirement Fund.

Retiring with $2.5M is achievable by most any middle-class income earner. $100k a year income allows for a pretty good lifestyle by most standards (assuming mortgage has been paid off, college expenses behind you, etc.).

Something like $30M (Ultra High Net Worth) and up requires opportunity that one can probably only luck into if without discipline and/or an entrepreneurial mindset.

But like Perot says: mo money, mo problems.
 
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Rajobigguy

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My official job classification at work is "undetermined". I'm like one of those computer programs that you come across while cleaning up the hard drive. You know the ones that you look at and say to yourself " I can see that it's part of the operating system but I have no idea what it does so I better not fuck with it".
That's Me.
 

clarence

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Content with who I am And where I am!
At a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island, the late Kurt Vonnegut informs his pal, author Joseph Heller, that their host, a hedge fund manager, had made more money in a single day than Heller had earned from his wildly popular novel, Catch-22, over its whole history. Heller responds, “Yes, but I have something he will never have – enough.”

I hadn't really appreciated this until I retired and only then realized I'm too lazy to want to own (and be responsible for) much. Too much work. I should have retired at 50.
 

bowtiejunkie

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That is great book. The research was done in 1980 and still stands up. If you want to read another good one that expands the reseach to over 10,000 Amercian Millionaires check out " Everyday Millionaires " by Chris Hogan
thanks for the recommendation, will check out that book! Numbers ($$$) have increased with time, but some books provide those everlasting concepts.
 

RiverDave

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I like this formula from the book “The Millionaire Next Door”:

[Your age] x [pre-tax annual household income from all sources, except inheritances] / 10 = your "expected" net worth

If your net worth is twice the result, you are on your way to building wealth.

many of the wealthiest people on Forbes list of world’s wealthiest people have their fortunes tied to stock (the company they founded, for example). Certainly, most have diversified into other streams of income.

Everyone has their own opinion on what is wealthy. IMO, it’s a person that has a level of assets creating enough income they they no longer need to work to maintain their lifestyle, and are happy doing so. It doesn’t matter what the underlying assets are, just as long as they are casting off enough income to keep increasing your net worth. Wealthy also are careful with their spending.

I would say a rich person is burning money and their net worth isn’t that great. I mean, they could be earning $1,000,000 a year, assets of $10MM, and liabilities of $8MM, while burning $1,100,000 a year. That’s probably not wealthy. The guy who quit his job with $1MM in assets, $0 in liabilities, earning $150,000 off the assets, and burning $50,000 a year, could be said to be wealthy. Optics are one thing (flashy toys, big houses, etc), but it definitely doesn’t equate to wealthy universally.
So if I made 100k x 44 years old = 440k divided ten = 44,000.00.

if my assets are twice thst at 88k I’m building wealth?

but on the inverse if we add a zero and I made 1,000,000 x 44 = 44 mill divided by ten is 4.4 million.. so I’d need 8.8 million?

I’m not sure I’m grasping the equation here based off those examples for round numbers?
 

530RL

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Back to the original question......

In my time on this planet it has always been a function of personal choices, hard work and a large helping of luck.

Sometimes only one of those is necessary, but in most cases it takes all three. 🤷🤷
 

RiverDave

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There’s an old moral story about the Mexican and the Millionaire..

Mexican comes back from a day of fishing on his Ponga and is drinking a six pack of coronazz Millionaire rolls up and says “I’d hire a kid, buy a second ponga and next thing ya know you will have a fleet and a million bucks”. Mexican says what am I gonna do with a million bucks? Millionaire says “come down to a beach like this and go fishing and have corona”

lol. Always loved that story as their is a lot of truth in it with regard to quality of life or satisfaction vs financial..

I have lived most of my life being satisfied as money has never motivated me much.. Now that I’m getting older though I find myself being a lot more interested in money.. Little challenges like taking small sums and seeing if I can turn them into larger sums. And many other things.

I think it would be cool to open up the bank accounts and see seven or possibly eight figures in there and I am trying to figure out what it would take to do just that.
 

Looking Glass

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It’s times like this I find it easier to be poor white trash.😂

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say some of you have a much different idea of wealth than I do.😊

I just love it when what is right for one members plan is shit on by another. It’s all relative folks.
There is always someone looking down at you like you’re a pile of shit and on the other end of the spectrum someone looking up to you like you’ve got more than anybody in the world.

100% Also many times people who most feel have it made when you take a good close look at them and think would you be willing to trade with them? The answer is a NO!! The $'s and Material things are not near enough to Off Set the rest of the Package.:rolleyes:
 

brgrcru

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I have made enough money, to buy Miami and pissed it way .just as fast . On life .

If you love your job , you never worked a day in your life . I'm thankfull I always did.

The older I get , the less I think about money. I think more of the time.
At the end of my days , if I'm living in trailer , by the river . Fishing and enjoying my wife sitting next to me . Watching the kids and gran kids . Life was good .

Work hard , play hard , stay hard.

Death comes to us all . No matter , what kind of money , you have .

In the end don't give up your life , just so your kids , can be silver spoon asses .
 

badgas

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While I ultimately 100% agree with you, life isn’t about money.. This particular thread is..

I don’t think it was intended or even presented as some dick measuring contest.. If it was believe me there is some whale dicks on rdp. Lol.

I think it’s just a group of middle class to upper middle class guys wondering what it takes to break into upper class. Nothing wrong with talking about it and giving opinions.

Truthfully I find the conversation refreshing because usually nobody is ever willing to talk about this stuff at all. If I can learn anything from it to make more money I know I’d be appreciative..


I hesitate to try and teach anyone because I don’t think I’m in an experienced enough or financial position to do so.

I have observed good friends though that have made more money in a month then I will
Make in a lifetime and try to glean off them what I can and I sure as shit listen when they talk.
I'm with you

I love this conversation as most people are uncomfortable talking about money, For some reason money is taboo ?

I also LOVE listenting to those people who are actually winning and it is not just some opinion from another broke ass with an opinion or an idea he heard on a late night infomercial or a $99 course he just purchased.

Good times !

Maybe it is time to start the RDP mastermind group where people can share their business ideas adventures struggels etc ?
 

bowtiejunkie

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So if I made 100k x 44 years old = 440k divided ten = 44,000.00.

if my assets are twice thst at 88k I’m building wealth?

but on the inverse if we add a zero and I made 1,000,000 x 44 = 44 mill divided by ten is 4.4 million.. so I’d need 8.8 million?

I’m not sure I’m grasping the equation here based off those examples for round numbers?
44x100,000 = 4,400,000
4,400,000 / 10 = $440,000

so, $440,000x2 = $880,000 (this would be your level of net worth at 44 to be considered a Prodigious Accumulator of Wealth (PAW) per the book.

I think you’d identify with a lot of the findings in the book about the traits of a millionaire next door. The book came out in 1996. Way before the tech boom really started to catch legs. I’d imagine your average millionaire would be fairly similar with some tech jobs thrown in the mix. The self-employed businesses would still be high on the list though.
 

LargeOrangeFont

Steering RDP Towards Political Moderation 😁
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So if I made 100k x 44 years old = 440k divided ten = 44,000.00.

if my assets are twice thst at 88k I’m building wealth?

but on the inverse if we add a zero and I made 1,000,000 x 44 = 44 mill divided by ten is 4.4 million.. so I’d need 8.8 million?

I’m not sure I’m grasping the equation here based off those examples for round numbers?
Dave.. there is another reason you aren’t wealthy. You can’t math buddy. :)

$100,000 X 44 = $4.4 Mil. Divide by 10 is $440k. You should have 440k of net worth according to that formula. You’d need close to $900k of net worth today to be building wealth.
 

530RL

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I'm with you

I love this conversation as most people are uncomfortable talking about money, For some reason money is taboo ?

I also LOVE listenting to those people who are actually winning and it is not just some opinion from another broke ass with an opinion or an idea he heard on a late night infomercial or a $99 course he just purchased.

Good times !

Maybe it is time to start the RDP mastermind group where people can share their business ideas adventures struggels etc ?
less is more
some will understand most won’t

I really appreciate both these points.

Businesses are not successful because of capital or a great idea, they are successful because of people who can get it done and deliver results. People matter the most over all other inputs.

This thought of the American economic dream lives today, but the commitment and personal choices to achieve it are not for everyone. No one should kid themselves, monetary success is really hard and in most all cases means sacrificing one thing for another.

That is not a criticism but just an observation. One has to give up one thing to achieve another. There is no free lunch.

Equal to this is those that can with a clear mind and conscience choose personal or family lifestyle over ever increasing monetary success. Not in my DNA but those are the ones I envy the most.
 
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