House Electrical Question

[Outnumbered]

I have a 220 4 prong dryer plug in the laundry garage area that I don't use. It's fed by a double pole 30 amp breaker. I want to use this to create two new 20amp 110v circuits.

So, can I just replace the 30 amp double pole breaker with a 20amp double and then wire in two 20 amp outlets at the dryer outlet? Or, should I put in two 20 amp singles? Since its a 4 prong I have two hots, a neutral, and a ground. Seems straight up to me that either would work, but just want to be 100% sure it's safe. Thanks !

 

[Carlson-jet]

I'm not an electrician but have hooked up 220 using both legs to run a compressor. Being it looks like a modern Square D box I'm thinking yes. I would have to see what it looks like/ how thing are wired behind the panel cover.

 

[Outnumbered]

It's a 2004 built home with a 200 amp service. Thx

 

[Carlson-jet]

Kind of interesting because I have wondered if it could be split out at the receptacle.

Edit: I will add that I'm sure there is something about insulation coloring that will make this completely against code to not run with more wires. Is this through Conduit?

 

[Outnumbered]

Kind of interesting because I have wondered if it could be split out at the receptacle.

Edit: I will add that I'm sure there is something about insulation coloring that will make this completely against code to not run with more wires. Is this through Conduit?

No, it's in wall from new build. Should not be a code issue since I'm going down in breaker size and not up. But, I'm no expert I've done some basic wiring for remodels and sheds and such. I'm thinking this should be easy.

 

[jman]

Are you going to use the existing wire and share the neutral between the two hots? Safety wise it doesn't pose a problem. You should use a two pole breaker because of the shared neutral. Code wise, it depends on how the code is written in your area and on the inspector (some inspectors only know what the book says, and some have some real world experience and common sense). There's a few reasons that it's not the best solution (i.e. using one leg to support a high lighting load can cause issues to sensitive electronics on the other leg) but for a homeowner there's really nothing to worry about.

 

[stokerwhore]

Are you going to use the existing wire and share the neutral between the two hots? Safety wise it doesn't pose a problem. You should use a two pole breaker because of the shared neutral. Code wise, it depends on how the code is written in your area ..

if that's the case he would then have to switch every breaker in that panel to 2-pole, lol.

in the panel 2 single pole 20A breakers need to be installed instead of the two pole. then you can use the wires at the outlet for/as two individual circuits that share neutral each going to it's own receptacle or whatever the use may be.

 

[28Eliminator]

if that's the case he would then have to switch every breaker in that panel to 2-pole, lol.

in the panel 2 single pole 20A breakers need to be installed instead of the two pole. then you can use the wires at the outlet for/as two individual circuits that share neutral each going to it's own receptacle or whatever the use may be.

This is correct. We split circuits off a 3 wire romex (common neutral and gnd) all the time. Every electrician I know does it, and it's perfectly legal. X2 on the separate breakers.

 

[wishiknew]

if that's the case he would then have to switch every breaker in that panel to 2-pole, lol.

in the panel 2 single pole 20A breakers need to be installed instead of the two pole. then you can use the wires at the outlet for/as two individual circuits that share neutral each going to it's own receptacle or whatever the use may be.

New code in comercial applications is all phases sharing a neutural must have a handle tie at the breaker I dont know if this is the same on a house

 

[Old Texan]

Pay for a licensed electrician in your area to tell you how to do it and then do it for you. This ain't a DIY endeavor and if something fails you will pay for it later at a far higher cost......Just sayin', as I've seen bad things happen for seemingly innocent "fixes"

 

[28Eliminator]

New code in comercial applications is all phases sharing a neutural must have a handle tie at the breaker I dont know if this is the same on a house

My electrician just walked out of my office... He confirmed what you said about commercial, but said he has heard nothing about it applying to residential.. He's going to confirm and let me know.

 

[SHOCKtheMONKEY]

I have a 220 4 prong dryer plug in the laundry garage area that I don't use. It's fed by a double pole 30 amp breaker. I want to use this to create two new 20amp 110v circuits.

So, can I just replace the 30 amp double pole breaker with a 20amp double and then wire in two 20 amp outlets at the dryer outlet? Or, should I put in two 20 amp singles? Since its a 4 prong I have two hots, a neutral, and a ground. Seems straight up to me that either would work, but just want to be 100% sure it's safe. Thanks !

Yes, you'll be fine....

Either breaker is OK....

 

[jman]

if that's the case he would then have to switch every breaker in that panel to 2-pole, lol.

in the panel 2 single pole 20A breakers need to be installed instead of the two pole. then you can use the wires at the outlet for/as two individual circuits that share neutral each going to it's own receptacle or whatever the use may be.

I only mention using a two pole because you don't know what the inspector is going to be looking for. Most inspectors I know are sticklers for a few things and let a lot of other stuff slide. It's a roll of the dice on which items which inspector is going to have a hard-on for. Yes it's required in an industrial/commercial application but not in most places residential. My time is worth more to me than the extra cost of a 2-pole breaker instead of spending it arguing with an inspector that may or may not know what the rule really is. It's like grounding the main panel. Only one ground rod is required, but I always use two. That way if the inspector tests one and it fails, the installation passes due to the rule that only a second ground rod driven X amount of feet (depending on location) away is required. Does the inspector ever break out a meter and test it, no, but again the 10 minutes and few dollars in materials isn't worth the possible hassle.
Either way it's safe to do.
I'd be more worried about the conductor fill in the box where the original 8/3 is going to split off into separate branch circuits. Like grounding, conductor fill is something simple that the most inept inspector can memorize the rules to and use it make it seem like they know a lot more than they do.

 

[Groper]

This is correct. We split circuits off a 3 wire romex (common neutral and gnd) all the time. Every electrician I know does it, and it's perfectly legal. X2 on the separate breakers.

New code in comercial applications is all phases sharing a neutural must have a handle tie at the breaker I dont know if this is the same on a house

Correct

if that's the case he would then have to switch every breaker in that panel to 2-pole, lol.
in the panel 2 single pole 20A breakers need to be installed instead of the two pole. then you can use the wires at the outlet for/as two individual circuits that share neutral each going to it's own receptacle or whatever the use may be.

No, if both legs share the same "junction Box" as with the Laundry Service, they should be on a 2-pole Breaker, so when servicing one device, there is no "Hot Circuit" present, therefore removing the shock hazard.

I only mention using a two pole because you don't know what the inspector is going to be looking for. Most inspectors I know are sticklers for a few things and let a lot of other stuff slide. It's a roll of the dice on which items which inspector is going to have a hard-on for. Yes it's required in an industrial/commercial application but not in most places residential. My time is worth more to me than the extra cost of a 2-pole breaker instead of spending it arguing with an inspector that may or may not know what the rule really is. It's like grounding the main panel. Only one ground rod is required, but I always use two. That way if the inspector tests one and it fails, the installation passes due to the rule that only a second ground rod driven X amount of feet (depending on location) away is required. Does the inspector ever break out a meter and test it, no, but again the 10 minutes and few dollars in materials isn't worth the possible hassle.
Either way it's safe to do.
I'd be more worried about the conductor fill in the box where the original 8/3 is going to split off into separate branch circuits. Like grounding, conductor fill is something simple that the most inept inspector can memorize the rules to and use it make it seem like they know a lot more than they do.

Yes to not arguing with the Inspector. Inspectors don't test grounding, this would only be required for special applications, ie:Hospitals, Power Plants, CoGens, Schools etc. and would be performed by an independent EC.
One "Ground Rod" is required for a low voltage 50-600v service along with a "Ufer Ground" as well a "Cold Water and Natural Gas" Bond if present.
The only reason a "Second Ground" would be required is when there is a water bond that is not present or available.

 

[DirtyWhiteDog]

As mentioned above you will be fine with 2 - 20amp single pole breakers. Box fill only applies to the wires coming into the box, so your fine. Wire nut a single #12 pigtail to the red #8 for one plug, do the same to the black for other plug. Wire 2 #12 pigtails to the white, 1 for each plug, do the same to the ground.
Why do you have the building department involved ? Eff the greedy bastards :skull

 

[wishiknew]

As mentioned above you will be fine with 2 - 20amp single pole breakers. Box fill only applies to the wires coming into the box, so your fine. Wire nut a single #12 pigtail to the red #8 for one plug, do the same to the black for other plug. Wire 2 #12 pigtails to the white, 1 for each plug, do the same to the ground.
Why do you have the building department involved ? Eff the greedy bastards :skull

I think that it would have #10 not #8 wire for 30 amps

 

[Outnumbered]

Thanks everyone. I got it handled now. No building dept or inspectors needed, lol. Simply looking for more 20a outlets in garage without having to run a new home run 30 feet though a 10 year old house. You guys rock :thumbup:

 

[Groper]

As mentioned above you will be fine with 2 - 20amp single pole breakers. Box fill only applies to the wires coming into the box, so your fine. Wire nut a single #12 pigtail to the red #8 for one plug, do the same to the black for other plug. Wire 2 #12 pigtails to the white, 1 for each plug, do the same to the ground.
Why do you have the building department involved ? Eff the greedy bastards :skull

You have to use a 2-Pole Breaker if both "hot Legs " are in the same box, it doesn't matter if one circuit trips a opens the other side of the breaker, it's the safety factor, there have several people killed because they thought there was no voltage present, even after testing with a proximity "Voltage Tester". It's called "Foreign Voltage" feed from another source, it's worth the extra $3 for a 2-pole compared to two single poles. Are you going be flipping the Breaker on and off all the time ? No probably not.
I have been hit several times in Control Panels, Utility Panels, Junction Boxes, Underground Vaults due to Foreign Voltage, homeowners won't even begin to think about Foreign Voltage until it's too late. I myself am very conscious of that potential. More homeowners are killed in their Garage than slipping and falling in their shower, all caused by Electricity :yikes

 

[Outnumbered]

You have to use a 2-Pole Breaker if both "hot Legs " are in the same box, it doesn't matter if one circuit trips a opens the other side of the breaker, it's the safety factor, there have several people killed because they thought there was no voltage present, even after testing with a proximity "Voltage Tester". It's called "Foreign Voltage" feed from another source, it's worth the extra $3 for a 2-pole compared to two single poles. Are you going be flipping the Breaker on and off all the time ? No probably not.
I have been hit several times in Control Panels, Utility Panels, Junction Boxes, Underground Vaults due to Foreign Voltage, homeowners won't even begin to think about Foreign Voltage until it's too late. I myself am very conscious of that potential. More homeowners are killed in their Garage than slipping and falling in their shower, all caused by Electricity :yikes

This makes sense so I'll take this route to be safe. Thanks

 

[wishiknew]

This makes sense so I'll take this route to be safe. Thanks

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[jman]

Yes to not arguing with the Inspector. Inspectors don't test grounding, this would only be required for special applications, ie:Hospitals, Power Plants, CoGens, Schools etc. and would be performed by an independent EC.
One "Ground Rod" is required for a low voltage 50-600v service along with a "Ufer Ground" as well a "Cold Water and Natural Gas" Bond if present.
The only reason a "Second Ground" would be required is when there is a water bond that is not present or available.

Here in CT most of the inspectors have thing for grounding. A lot of the area is ledge and some guys will use short rods and I've seen inspectors threaten to have the ground tested. You are right, they will call in someone for that, I was over simplifying. A second rod makes them feel all warm and fuzzy and is cheap 'insurance'. Most of my work was done in those 'special' applications as well as casinos, so I learned it so much easier/cheaper to do things the way the inspectors want, not just to code minimum. The vast majority of residential work I've done over the years is finishing/fixing projects others started so i was never worried about bidding down to the last penny. I absolutely hate playing romex jockey, so every job I did I made sure the bid was worth my while to do it right the first time.

 

[Paul65k]

You have to use a 2-Pole Breaker if both "hot Legs " are in the same box, it doesn't matter if one circuit trips a opens the other side of the breaker, it's the safety factor, there have several people killed because they thought there was no voltage present, even after testing with a proximity "Voltage Tester". It's called "Foreign Voltage" feed from another source, it's worth the extra $3 for a 2-pole compared to two single poles. Are you going be flipping the Breaker on and off all the time ? No probably not.
I have been hit several times in Control Panels, Utility Panels, Junction Boxes, Underground Vaults due to Foreign Voltage, homeowners won't even begin to think about Foreign Voltage until it's too late. I myself am very conscious of that potential. More homeowners are killed in their Garage than slipping and falling in their shower, all caused by Electricity :yikes

Hey Bill,

Great advice....as usual:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[jman]

You have to use a 2-Pole Breaker if both "hot Legs " are in the same box, it doesn't matter if one circuit trips a opens the other side of the breaker, it's the safety factor, there have several people killed because they thought there was no voltage present, even after testing with a proximity "Voltage Tester". It's called "Foreign Voltage" feed from another source, it's worth the extra $3 for a 2-pole compared to two single poles. Are you going be flipping the Breaker on and off all the time ? No probably not.
I have been hit several times in Control Panels, Utility Panels, Junction Boxes, Underground Vaults due to Foreign Voltage, homeowners won't even begin to think about Foreign Voltage until it's too late. I myself am very conscious of that potential. More homeowners are killed in their Garage than slipping and falling in their shower, all caused by Electricity :yikes

Well said. It may not be required for residential, but is the safest way to go. Doing the minimum isn't always what's best!

 

[Joe mama]

Any inspector that knows anything will call you on having a multi wire circuit on separate single pole cb's...The return on the neutral from the other hot leg will nail ya.:yikes

 

[bloodhound]

It will be required in 2014 code for residential to use a common trip 2 pole breaker and you will have to zip tie the neutral to the hots in the panel for identification.

 

[wishiknew]

It will be required in 2014 code for residential to use a common trip 2 pole breaker and you will have to zip tie the neutral to the hots in the panel for identification.

In commercial you have to use handle tie not common trip breakers

 

[wishiknew]

It will be required in 2014 code for residential to use a common trip 2 pole breaker and you will have to zip tie the neutral to the hots in the panel for identification.

So you just zip tie the wires where they come out of the romex sheath at the connector ?

 

[bloodhound]

I saw it on a code forum and it was illustrated to tie the wires for easy I'd. I don't make the rules, just try to abide with them.

 

[wishiknew]

I saw it on a code forum and it was illustrated to tie the wires for easy I'd. I don't make the rules, just try to abide with them.

We all do Just everyday someone has a different take on the code !!