I think I need a contract lawyer

[MPHSystems]

It appears that I am getting fucked and I am getting fucked hard (no spit). It’s bad enough that I expect to catch Monkeypox at any moment.

Basic story, I am a C10 contractor (electrical) in California. I’m a little different because I also Provide basic networking services, structured cabling, surveillance systems, access control etc.

a couple years ago, my enterprise mesh WiFi vendor invited me to sell their BCDR solution. (Business continuity disaster recovery) basically it’s a server backup system which also has an onsite standby server /storage and cloud storage. It’s actually a very robust system and works well.


The problem is what they are fucking charging me for the cloud storage. Original proposal was I would pay them for the server + $449/mo for cloud storage. I would charge my customers initial setup + $6,588/ year which includes support 3 year commitment.

Day before my onsite BCDR ships from my vendor, my account manager calls me up:

“Hey, we are running a promotion you can upgrade you customers 4TB onsite backup server to a 8TB unit for free!”

I remember it clear as day, I said: “Free? I don’t have to pay anything for this upgrade? I mean we engineered the system for 4TB but if it’s free, why not give my customer some free room to grow? But free? Why would they upgrade my server for free?”

”Oh, it’s just a promotion they are running for new partners”

”OK, it’s free? Do it”

So I get the machine, install it, there are some issues because my customers servers are a behind on updates. I reach out to support, they are phenomenal. Really top tier, best support I have had from anybody, better than paid AppleCare. It’s a lot of work to get the customers servers updated but their support gets us up and running in just a few days. I love this company , they make me look great. The system is working flawlessly, it works outstanding.

I mean fuck, I make $100/month for not doing anything, made about $6,500 on the install, my customer is thrilled because the system is awesome and I came in at about 1/2 what my competitors were bidding at.


Then comes my first bill, It seems about $1k high but there was some shipping and cost on the original purchase, OK, I made $5.600 on the setup instead of $6,500… OK, an education is expensive I’m good.

I actually autopay with a credit card and the plan is to just make small monthly payments on the CC and at the end of the year I invoice my customer for the year, pay off the CC and the rest goes into my pocket. So I‘m not looking at every bill from my BCDR it just gets paid. But 3 months into it and my CC balance is almost twice what I expect and I don’t use credit cards, very rarely and this card is exclusively for this BCDR account. Turns out they are charging me $779.00/mo instead of $449.00 / month.

So I call my account manager and ask WTF? You are billing me more than I charge for the service. What he tells me is that since I upgraded the storage, my monthly went up too. I protest that I asked 3 times and you said free. Let’s just revert back to the 4TB and get back on track. He says he’ll check with his manager…. (Car salesman tactic)…. Nope that‘s the contract can’t do anything about it.


OK, I lost $5,380 on this deal, this is a good customer, an education is expensive, I’ll eat $1,500/ year. Not thrilled but oh well, if this is the worst thing that happens to me in the next 3 years I live a charmed life.

Fast forward to early this year, there is a pretty big problem with the system. The support team is on the ball and my account manager gets involved. The problem is resolved expediently but I take the opertunity to speak with my account manager.

Here’s how it goes.

AM: How you likening our product?

ME: well, as soon as the contract is over, I’m ripping the system out. I’m losing too much money on it.

AM: woah, we don’t want that. What can we do?

Me: switch me back to 4TB and the $449/mo

AM: let me see what I can do…… few days later “hey we can do it!“ We’ll send you a new 4TB box, you pay shipping and a new 2 year commitment small fee in shipping and prossing hook it up and we’ll shut off your old one.

Me: deal!

The mother fuckers are charging me $1,324/month now for 4TB. That’s a hit I can’t afford. $30K? For 2 years of 4TB? What in the actual fuck?

I am having some very dark thoughts.

 

[rivermobster]

First questions...

Do you have anything at all in writing?

Do they have their pricing on their website?

 

[paradise]

Yeah that sucks, but if you didn’t ask and get all of the details in writing you are probably hosed.

 

[MPHSystems]

First questions...

Do you have anything at all in writing?

Do they have their pricing on their website?

Yes and yes.

The confirmations were emails. The contract is a soft contract, no paper. I’ll have to dig it up on the website but as far as I know they could have changed it without my consent.

 

[DaveH]

since you paid on a CC........

first thing I would do I dispute the charges. send the CC your original contract with the pricing on it in writing and let the, see the difference in what they charged you. bet this is an easy win.

next is to get your client on to a different service provider, or maybe even this first.

then let them sue you, rather then you going after them.

 

[rivermobster]

Yes and yes.

The confirmations were emails. The contract is a soft contract, no paper. I’ll have to dig it up on the website but as far as I know they could have changed it without my consent.

I would guess the emails would prove the prices they offered to you?

You might want to stop talking with sales, and go straight to the company owner, with your emails.

@DaveH has a good plan too.

Hopefully someone knows a good lawyer.

 

[C-2]

Check for arbitration clauses, too.

 

[gqchris]

I gotta ask, why would you even want to mess with all the things that normally myself as an MSP would handle? I have had my low voltage guys try to do IT things and it always goes south. Then they call me to fix.

This vendor sounds like DATTO. All these SAAS providers are trying to screw people over with the monthly recurring. The way they blow my phone up trying to sell me stuff, I tell myself I want nothing to do with them!

 

[MPHSystems]

since you paid on a CC........

first thing I would do I dispute the charges. send the CC your original contract with the pricing on it in writing and let the, see the difference in what they charged you. bet this is an easy win.

next is to get your client on to a different service provider, or maybe even this first.

then let them sue you, rather then you going after them.

$30K is a big enough suit that it’s worth their time + legal fees it’s gong to hurt

I actually believe they are engaging in deceptive practices and it rises to the level of fraud.


I’d like to see these fuctards in jail. I’d actually like to make an appointment with an assistant AG


I’d actually be willing to outlay real cash to have them brought up on charges because fuck the assholes.

 

[monkeyswrench]

I'd underbid a couple jobs over the years. One, completely my fault. The other...well between bid and job there was a hurricane, plywood doubled

Big difference though, both were one and done. The wound will stop bleeding while doing the next job.

This? This is horrible. This being locked up with Bubba in a cell, for years!

 

[MPHSystems]

I gotta ask, why would you even want to mess with all the things that normally myself as an MSP would handle? I have had my low voltage guys try to do IT things and it always goes south. Then they call me to fix.

This vendor sounds like DATTO. All these SAAS providers are trying to screw people over with the monthly recurring. The way they blow my phone up trying to sell me stuff, I tell myself I want nothing to do with them!

I decline to state whom I am dealing with, if this goes south, I don’t need any violations of the user agreement.

I actually have a very strong background in networking. I do a fair amount of it and it always goes very well. But yea, I was trying my had at becoming a Managed service provider. It seems like there is a lot of money in it but it’s not working out.


Like I said, an education is expensive but this is more than I can really afford.


At this point I’d like to pay for a few hours of counsel to see what my options are.

It may turn out that I just had an asshole salesman and them still billing me for the decommissioned appliance is a clerical error on their part.

 

[MPHSystems]

Check for arbitration clauses, too.

Arbitration clause is for disputes over $100K

I may just take them to small claims once each year. They can’t use representation in small claims and the lawyers playing judge in small claims are more apt to judge in the favor of what is right over the exact letter of a contract.

It will be me Vs, my account rep just telling our story. No lawyers.

 

[rivermobster]

I decline to state whom I am dealing with, if this goes south, I don’t need any violations of the user agreement.

I actually have a very strong background in networking. I do a fair amount of it and it always goes very well. But yea, I was trying my had at becoming a Managed service provider. It seems like there is a lot of money in it but it’s not working out.


Like I said, an education is expensive but this is more than I can really afford.


At this point I’d like to pay for a few hours of counsel to see what my options are.

It may turn out that I just had an asshole salesman and them still billing me for the decommissioned appliance is a clerical error on their part.

When I went all in on a new managed server, I made the hosting company put every single word in a ticket...

They offered me a HUGE promotion to get my business. I told em to put it in writing, and I'll be on board.

They did and we went forward. Like you, I stay with them cause of their awesome tech support!!! Been with them since 07, and some of the same guys still answer the phones.

Lawyer up as a last resort. Hopefully just a simple mistake. Shit happens. Good luck!!!

 

[gqchris]

Arbitration clause is for disputes over $100K

I may just take them to small claims once each year. They can’t use representation in small claims and the lawyers playing judge in small claims are more apt to judge in the favor of what is right dorover the exact letter of a contract.

It will be me Vs, my account rep just telling our story. No lawyers.

Please google the vendors name and reddit after it. I am part of the MSP groups on there. You will see the luck others have had trying to fight these clowns. It unfortunately never pans out well.

 

[gqchris]

I decline to state whom I am dealing with, if this goes south, I don’t need any violations of the user agreement.

I actually have a very strong background in networking. I do a fair amount of it and it always goes very well. But yea, I was trying my had at becoming a Managed service provider. It seems like there is a lot of money in it but it’s not working out.


Like I said, an education is expensive but this is more than I can really afford.


At this point I’d like to pay for a few hours of counsel to see what my options are.

It may turn out that I just had an asshole salesman and them still billing me for the decommissioned appliance is a clerical error on their part.

One of my cablers got himself WAY over his head right now and trying to get me to fix it. He has been handling a cardiologist office that has been gobbled up by a big healthcare company. They came in and ripped his ass for the way he setup things. He has no clue and calls me in the last hour to try to be a hero. Im like, "dude, Im not the one that installed two blade servers on the damn sink in an exam room because you only put a two post rack in the data closet and have no idea what a server rail kit is!"

 

[Done-it-again]

Lawyering up gets expensive. Just went through my business attorney with earnest money on a land deal that went sideways... In the end I learned a lot but it cost me a lot. No earnest money returned and a pretty good bill from the attorney.

In the end try everything you can before an attorney...

 

[Gonefishin5555]

The subscription economy is here to fuck the customer in the ass. Secondly if I can’t meet face to face with the people at the company it’s a no go. Insist on a face to face with the sales guy an d his manager.

 

[MPHSystems]

One of my cablers got himself WAY over his head right now and trying to get me to fix it. He has been handling a cardiologist office that has been gobbled up by a big healthcare company. They came in and ripped his ass for the way he setup things. He has no clue and calls me in the last hour to try to be a hero. Im like, "dude, Im not the one that installed two blade servers on the damn sink in an exam room because you only put a two post rack in the data closet and have no idea what a server rail kit is!"

Yea, that’s not me, here is a random photo of my work. I don’t take a lot of photos.

 

[mbrown2]

since you paid on a CC........

first thing I would do I dispute the charges. send the CC your original contract with the pricing on it in writing and let the, see the difference in what they charged you. bet this is an easy win.

next is to get your client on to a different service provider, or maybe even this first.

then let them sue you, rather then you going after them.

That's my take...take all you have in writing and get it organized. You may want to write them a official letter of what you will pay based on the initial agreement 400 ish for the 8 TB...as well as the unplanned shipping costs ect... Let them disagree if that is the case then let them know you are disputing the charges and expect they will come and pick up or pay for deinstall and return of their gear...I would not get a lawyer until they serve you....but I would put them on record you are disputing the charges if they don't honor the agreement and will take them to court if they file anything against your credit.

Being in tech and buying cloud services...I would be more concerned about tactics then the price... sounded too good to be true and turned out it was... really sux cause it sounds like they provide good tech and integration support but the Sales side seems sleezy..

 

[Inland Air Balance]

https://www.tscarterlaw.com/ Located in Claremont, Tom Carter

 

[C-2]

Arbitration clause is for disputes over $100K

I may just take them to small claims once each year. They can’t use representation in small claims and the lawyers playing judge in small claims are more apt to judge in the favor of what is right over the exact letter of a contract.

It will be me Vs, my account rep just telling our story. No lawyers.

True, but then they can appeal and then you are in Superior court where they can be represented by counsel and you would need to re-prove your case in front of a bonafide judge. There is usually some required settlement negotiations before trial, or on the day of trial, maybe that will work in your favor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side, just offering my experience in sitting thru a couple hundred small claims trials and having worked in litigation for the past 33 years.

Besides, small claims is almost like a zoo and no judge pro tem will want to pour thru the contents of a contract. But a superior court judge will; he will take evidence under submission and review it carefully, then rule on it.

Do you have any pre-paid legal options?

 

[CLdrinker]

Seems like you keep agreeing to stuff over the phone instead of getting it in writing.

 

[MPHSystems]

Seems like you keep agreeing to stuff over the phone instead of getting it in writing.

Not just the phone but email as well.

i’ve had a lot of different vendors over a long career and never ran into one that I couldn’t trust. Sure mistakes are made things happen but nothing like this.

 

[DaveH]

this ma

Seems like you keep agreeing to stuff over the phone instead of getting it in writing.

this is stupid from the vendors end. because if it does get to a legal battle, he said-she said stuff goes out the window and whats in writing is enforceable.

when through this with an ISP....signed up for a month to month service plan, wasn't happy (slow speeds) and cancelled after 9 months.
they sent me all sorts of bills for early disconnect, service plan BS blah blah blah. none of which was in writing. told them to fuck off and they sent me to collections.

said to the scuzzy bill collector.....SHOW ME WHERE I SIGNED to their terms and agreements. "we will get back to you"

next call "will you settle for HALF"? NO.

next call, "did you find the contract"? "No, we are closing this case."

this was from one of the big service providers.

 

[paradise]

I’m guessing that if you reread your emails you probably never got a direct response that your monthly recurring would stay the same. My guess is they did exactly what they said and gave you a free upgrade on the hardware (from 4 to 8TB) but are now charging you for a higher monthly rate (8TB). That is not an uncommon albeit slimy strategy.

 

[paradise]

this ma

this is stupid from the vendors end. because if it does get to a legal battle, he said-she said stuff goes out the window and whats in writing is enforceable.

when through this with an ISP....signed up for a month to month service plan, wasn't happy (slow speeds) and cancelled after 9 months.
they sent me all sorts of bills for early disconnect, service plan BS blah blah blah. none of which was in writing. told them to fuck off and they sent me to collections.

said to the scuzzy bill collector.....SHOW ME WHERE I SIGNED to their terms and agreements. "we will get back to you"

next call "will you settle for HALF"? NO.

next call, "did you find the contract"? "No, we are closing this case."

this was from one of the big service providers.

100%. They are not going to take this to court. However, they know that most people will just roll over and take it if they say ‘no’. We have multiple clients that want to come on board right now but are stuck in contracts and don’t want to go to through the drama of trying to break them

 

[DaveH]

100%. They are not going to take this to court. However, they know that most people will just roll over and take it if they say ‘no’. We have multiple clients that want to come on board right now but are stuck in contracts and don’t want to go to through the drama of trying to break them

this.

but these tactics will lose if this goes to a legal battle.

 

[C-Ya]

Here is the lesson to be learned……

Memorialize things that are not in writing to writing. For instance, after my wife has a legal conversation with a client, she will summarize the conversation and send email of the summarization. If the recipiant does not respond, it’s because they agree with the summarization.

I think the company you are dealing with has a loose interpretation of the word “free”.

I wish you the best in finding a resolution.

 

[Cobalt232]

Wow, that is expensive. I've got 100's of TB's on Amazon Glacier and it is way less than that.

 

[MPHSystems]

The stupid part is that I have several other customers who would buy this from me, they would have made a lot more money not fuckign with me. Additionally, I dowbete anybody who has read this thread will ever use their product.

 

[RiverDave]

$30K is a big enough suit that it’s worth their time + legal fees it’s gong to hurt

I actually believe they are engaging in deceptive practices and it rises to the level of fraud.


I’d like to see these fuctards in jail. I’d actually like to make an appointment with an assistant AG


I’d actually be willing to outlay real cash to have them brought up on charges because fuck the assholes.

You just need a DA and calmly explain the bait and switch.. it will goto the AG when cases accrue.

 

[CarolynandBob]

Here is the lesson to be learned……

Memorialize things that are not in writing to writing. For instance, after my wife has a legal conversation with a client, she will summarize the conversation and send email of the summarization. If the recipiant does not respond, it’s because they agree with the summarization.

I think the company you are dealing with has a loose interpretation of the word “free”.

I wish you the best in finding a resolution.

This. When I was working every conversation on the phone was followed up with an email or text reiterating what was said and agree to.

I saved the company a few hundred thousand in change orders because of this.

 

[DarkHorseRacing]

Perhaps you should consider switching on the cloud storage for the backups. There are far cheaper options, one of which is Wasabi which it pretty good.

 

[MPHSystems]

Well, enough emails back and forth with accounting and I just got this one.

 

[rivermobster]

Well, enough emails back and forth with accounting and I just got this one.

View attachment 1145578

So now they are saying you're behind on your payments??

 

[MPHSystems]

So now they are saying you're behind on your payments??

So now they are saying you're behind on your payments??

A little bit, and I have a week to verify if I am behind but I am not looking at a $20k hit.


I am happy.

 

[Joet5point9]

I’m also a C10 contractor in CA, when I got my license a mentor of mine told me “remember, if it’s not on paper, it’s vapor”. lol

 

[rivermobster]

A little bit, and I have a week to verify if I am behind but I am not looking at a $20k hit.


I am happy.

Excellent news

 

[HTTP404]

Can you point the devices to your own cloud storage?
Is there different hardware for 4 vs. 8 TB of cloud storage????

 

[MPHSystems]

Can you point the devices to your own cloud storage?
Is there different hardware for 4 vs. 8 TB of cloud storage????

Not with this package.


it does continuous incremental backups enterprise wide. You’ll never lose more than a few minutes of data in a catastrophic failure and I can spin up a VM for any/ all physical machines on site in 20 minutes. I can recover from a ransom attack inside of an hour.

if the server room burnt to the ground I can spin up cloud machines same day And have a physical machine shipped overnight with spun up with VMs in 48 hrs.

i spin up all the vm servers every 24 hrs to verify integrity automatically.

a simple cloud backup doesn’t even come close.

 

[traquer]

I wonder what the company management thinks about this story. Is it possible that they are not fully aware of how their employees' process sales?

Yep. How big of a company we talking about? I work with several quite decently sized companies, say 50-100 employees, and the executives are in Slack working with sales and BDOs and will very quickly discuss something like this if it's about to make a big stink..

 

[MPHSystems]

Company is international with probably better than 1k employees and contractors.