If you choose not to Vaccinate....

[Uncle Dave]

WTF?? NICE NAME JACKASS!!

I was trying to figure out WTF was going on.
I was pretty sure you didnt 180.

 

[Racey]

What he doesn't know is the unvaccinated people under the floor boards have a deadly arsenal of "Fully Semi Automatic Ghost Guns"

 

[Uncle Dave]

fucking love that flick and Christolph Waltz

 

[FreeBird236]

mRNA is 100% the future. They can use this to create initial vaccine to any new threat in under a month, then it just becomes a question of testing. As testing becomes more and more routine and ground truthing bears out the theory, the testing phase will become faster. This is a total game changer and may be the silver lining of this pandemic.

we'll see, hasn't always worked out too well for other animals.

 

[JUSTWANNARACE]

I was trying to figure out WTF was going on.
I was pretty sure you didnt 180.

Just GMAC trolling

 

[Racey]

 

[94Nautique]

Lol!
I’ve not read the entire thread yet.
I can tell you while I don’t really agree with Dave’s view here, and he may be a lot of things, a lefty isn’t one of them

I know, just the thought of forced medical procedures or forced denial of service is the new leftist way of thinking.

Liberty and freedom have to be exercised with personal responsibility.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Should you be allowed hospitalization in the case of severe symptoms requiring urgent care?

Should people be allowed to have it both ways?

My loyalty to my constitution says you should absolutely be allowed to refuse, but I do think choices should come with consequences.

physicians take an oath that is not likely to yield to your premises.

medicine and practitioners do not discriminate based upon need nor upon the individual's choice.

e.g: doctors treat everyone ...police and accused criminals wounded during conflicts... the ignorant anf the erudite...the indigent and the wealthy...they have blind loyalty to mending illness, disease, and wounds, while doing 'no harm'.

 

[Uncle Dave]

physicians take an oath that is not likely to yield to your premises.

medicine and practitioners do not discriminate based upon need nor upon the individual's choice.

e.g: doctors treat everyone ...police and accused criminals wounded during conflicts... the ignorant anf the erudite...the indigent and the wealthy...they have blind loyalty to mending illness, disease, and wounds, while doing 'no harm'.

It isnt "my" premise its an ongoing topic in the medical field. Did you read the links I put up?

In a situation where they may be forced to pick one of two - some of them would decide that its on you if you didnt vaccinate.

Now in terms of refusing advice specialists will absolutely "fire" patients if they dont heed their advice.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Did you read the links I put up?

sorry, I did not see links, only the originating questions....shall I go through the entire thread to find them or will you repost them in reply?

 

[Uncle Dave]

sorry, I did not see links, only the originating questions....shall I go through the entire thread to find them or will you repost them in reply?

Im on a different machine right now and cant go back and look at the browsing history I got the links from - but will do so later.


UD

 

[Christopher Lucero]

Im on a different machine right now and cant go back and look at the browsing history I got the links from - but will do so later.


UD

in the mean time I shall examine and catalog what I find in this post
starting now...

The Measles Dilemma: Personal Choice vs. Public Health (Who Wins?)

What is more important?

nationalinterest.org

 

[Uncle Dave]

Just GMAC trolling

If so thats lame.

I thought you couldn't create multiple logins under the same IP address?

 

[Uncle Dave]

in the mean time I shall examine and catalog what I find in this post
starting now...

The Measles Dilemma: Personal Choice vs. Public Health (Who Wins?)

What is more important?

nationalinterest.org

I think this is it same guy at least. There is more to read on this.

My neighbors are husband wife doctors and this came up in discussion as well

Anti-vaxxers should forgo ventilators: German doctor – DW – 12/19/2020

A German geneticist has said those who turn down the new COVID-19 vaccine should carry a note also refusing intensive care treatment. He also said medical decisions should not be left to conspiracy theorists.

www.dw.com

 

[SBMech]

Yea well, you want to see some real motherfucking assaults on the populace?

Enact or support something as stupid as the premise of this post. I'd bet entire hospital staff dead in hundreds of cities across the world.

You don't even need guns...thousands of ways to make shit go boom available across the net.

If people who work in healthcare decide to forgo their oaths, well they can all fuck off and die.

Imagine a world divided like that, where no one wants to help anyone unless you think a certain way, do a certain thing, or purely on the color of your skin.

Fucking Nazi bitches.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

If so thats lame.

I thought you couldn't create multiple logins under the same IP address?

Felons can’t have guns either.. but criminals break rules and laws by definition.

There have not been any IP bans here yet that I know of.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Just GMAC trolling

Could also be GRADS. Don’t know for sure haven’t looked.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Yea well, you want to see some real motherfucking assaults on the populace?

Enact or support something as stupid as the premise of this post. I'd bet entire hospital staff dead in hundreds of cities across the world.

You don't even need guns...thousands of ways to make shit go boom available across the net.

If people who work in healthcare decide to forgo their oaths, well they can all fuck off and die.

Imagine a world divided like that, where no one wants to help anyone unless you think a certain way, do a certain thing, or purely on the color of your skin.

Fucking Nazi bitches.

Guy is on the German ethics council to boot.

 

[lbhsbz]

Totally get the point of the identification question, and the definition of a vaccine.

Is smoking a random thing that happens?

No, but smokers pay higher rates for medical insurance. They damn well better get the care they're paying for. If smokers will be turned away from medical care, then the insurance companies should not write policies for smokers. You can't sell the policy knowing the condition and then refuse the service.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I know, just the thought of forced medical procedures or forced denial of service is the new leftist way of thinking.

Liberty and freedom have to be exercised with personal responsibility.

Nothing really new on vac part We've had mandatory vaccination for decades.

Rick Perry Mandated HPV vaccination in Texas then backed off.

Texas governor is criticised for decision to vaccinate all girls against HPV

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Whats new is the vaccination "toggle" in triage.

 

[Uncle Dave]

No, but smokers pay higher rates for medical insurance. They damn well better get the care they're paying for. If smokers will be turned away from medical care, then the insurance companies should not write policies for smokers. You can't sell the policy knowing the condition and then refuse the service.

Agreed .

Many simply wont write policies for smokers.

Smoking has predictable consequences, a new disease pops up out of the blue....

I wonder how many - if any current insurance policies have communicable disease vaccination clauses in them now?

 

[Uncle Dave]

Oh......What about the extra strain put on hospitals by people that refuse to wear helmets on motorcycles, this is a rabbit hole....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How and why the court ruled for mandatory helmets.


During the 1970s, pressure by the federal government in the USA led virtually all states to mandate the use of motorcycle helmets (Jones & Bayer, 2007). These statutes provoked the wrath of motorcyclists who asserted that the state deprived them of the right to cycle in the way that was most pleasurable and exciting, and that failure to use helmets posed no threat to others. In short, these laws were, they asserted, an example of overreaching state intrusion, of gross paternalism. Nevertheless, when the courts reviewed these statutes, they were almost never overturned as unconstitutional. A court in Massachusetts noted, “From the moment of the injury, society picks the person up off the highway; delivers him to a municipal hospital and municipal doctors; provides him with unemployment compensation if, after recovery, he cannot replace his lost job; and if the injury causes permanent disability many assure the responsibility for his and his family's continued sustenance. We do not understand a state of mind that permits a plaintiff to think that only he himself is concerned” (Cronin, 1980).

 

[SBMech]

How and why the court ruled for mandatory helmets.


During the 1970s, pressure by the federal government in the USA led virtually all states to mandate the use of motorcycle helmets (Jones & Bayer, 2007). These statutes provoked the wrath of motorcyclists who asserted that the state deprived them of the right to cycle in the way that was most pleasurable and exciting, and that failure to use helmets posed no threat to others. In short, these laws were, they asserted, an example of overreaching state intrusion, of gross paternalism. Nevertheless, when the courts reviewed these statutes, they were almost never overturned as unconstitutional. A court in Massachusetts noted, “From the moment of the injury, society picks the person up off the highway; delivers him to a municipal hospital and municipal doctors; provides him with unemployment compensation if, after recovery, he cannot replace his lost job; and if the injury causes permanent disability many assure the responsibility for his and his family's continued sustenance. We do not understand a state of mind that permits a plaintiff to think that only he himself is concerned” (Cronin, 1980).

Pure pressure from insurance backers to make that happen.

Guess they are still not as powerful as the tabacco industry....since not one fucking peep about a law using the same idealism and regulation from smoking or chew.

People have been paying into insurance for most of their lives here in America, you threaten to change it into some crazy "pay as you decide" scenario, there will be dead people everywhere, since very few understand that they are hedging a bet against needing the money from insurance.

Everything is corrupt.

No reason machines and technology that has existed for decades to still cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to RENT for your use when you need someone's expertise to operate it....

The whole healthcare/insurance system is fucked and utterly corrupt.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Pure pressure from insurance backers to make that happen.

Guess they are still not as powerful as the tabacco industry....since not one fucking peep about a law using the same idealism and regulation from smoking or chew.

People have been paying into insurance for most of their lives here in America, you threaten to change it into some crazy "pay as you decide" scenario, there will be dead people everywhere, since very few understand that they are hedging a bet against needing the money from insurance.

Everything is corrupt.

No reason machines and technology that has existed for decades to still cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to RENT for your use when you need someone's expertise to operate it....

The whole healthcare/insurance system is fucked and utterly corrupt.

This article is excellent and talks about tobacco as well.

Many good questions are asked and few of the answers make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Where do the individual rights stop and the public right take over and what role does th state play in this?

The continuing tensions between individual rights and public health. Talking Point on public health versus civil liberties

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[EmpirE231]

yes

 

[Christopher Lucero]

I think this is it same guy at least. There is more to read on this.

My neighbors are husband wife doctors and this came up in discussion as well

Anti-vaxxers should forgo ventilators: German doctor – DW – 12/19/2020

A German geneticist has said those who turn down the new COVID-19 vaccine should carry a note also refusing intensive care treatment. He also said medical decisions should not be left to conspiracy theorists.

www.dw.com

well, UD, there is no good answer. nothing like a conundrum to entertain the synapses. thanks for making me do my calisthenics.

 

[Tom Slick]

If you worked in health and could opt out of vaccination would you.

My wife did.

 

[regor]

My wife did.

Along with 40% of the Marines.

 

[JUSTWANNARACE]

If you worked in health and could opt out of vaccination would you.

I actually know several that have. And will not until there is more research and published studies that say it actually works, and there will be no serious side effects.

 

[Uncle Dave]

I actually know several that have. And will not until there is more research and published studies that say it actually works, and there will be no serious side effects.

I think its been in trials about year with 5 major entities so not a long time for sure but still a decent # of people.

I totally get that its a % either way, although the vax seems to be the higher of the two number - that doesn't mean its safer in the long run.

Im cool either way with what people do - thats why we aren't mandating shit.

It will be interesting to see the consensus on sputnik - if it was the way to go and the russians actually got there first it would be a hell of a story and wake up call.

 

[Uncle Dave]

well, UD, there is no good answer. nothing like a conundrum to entertain the synapses. thanks for making me do my calisthenics.

A religious man would call it the "devils choice", I just call it a shit set of choices.

 

[Uncle Dave]

Id say if I were a few years younger and didnt have

1. a solitary kidney

2. I very likely contracted SARS in toronto (shit timing to travel) and have a compromised respiratory system from it or whatever it was, but I was quarantined in a hotel room with doctors visiting me. Only time in my life where I said to myself - - you know if this gets worse I could fucking die

Id probably risk it.

Super strong health young guys - I dont see why Id do it.

Thing is either decision carries risk.

 

[Danger Dave]

Buy a blank card and fill it in yourself. Problem solved.

https://offerup.com/item/detail/1102462144/

 

[just_floatin]

Well now that a good part of the population is vaccinated. You will now need the government GPS installed in your body so your vitals are traced in real time .

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381767181227208707

The Pentagon Announces A New Microchip To Implant Into Your Body That Is Designed To Check For And Treat Coronavirus

This is an Orwellian nightmare.

conservativebrief.com

 

[Uncle Dave]

I feel an overwhelming urge to buy microsoft products.....

 

[Dalton]

How and why the court ruled for mandatory helmets.


During the 1970s, pressure by the federal government in the USA led virtually all states to mandate the use of motorcycle helmets (Jones & Bayer, 2007). These statutes provoked the wrath of motorcyclists who asserted that the state deprived them of the right to cycle in the way that was most pleasurable and exciting, and that failure to use helmets posed no threat to others. In short, these laws were, they asserted, an example of overreaching state intrusion, of gross paternalism. Nevertheless, when the courts reviewed these statutes, they were almost never overturned as unconstitutional. A court in Massachusetts noted, “From the moment of the injury, society picks the person up off the highway; delivers him to a municipal hospital and municipal doctors; provides him with unemployment compensation if, after recovery, he cannot replace his lost job; and if the injury causes permanent disability many assure the responsibility for his and his family's continued sustenance. We do not understand a state of mind that permits a plaintiff to think that only he himself is concerned” (Cronin, 1980).

I like seeing people without helmets weirdly, reminds me we still live in a wild world where not everyone is a square and people still live on the ragged edge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rmarion]

Well now that a good part of the population is vaccinated. You will now need the government GPS installed in your body so your vitals are traced in real time .

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381767181227208707

The Pentagon Announces A New Microchip To Implant Into Your Body That Is Designed To Check For And Treat Coronavirus

This is an Orwellian nightmare.

conservativebrief.com

I will be on the news if that is a requirement

 

[Uncle Dave]

I like seeing people without helmets weirdly, reminds me we still live in a wild world where not everyone is a square and people still live on the ragged edge
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think people should be able to ride without them they want, but I always wore one even prior to it being law.
Insurance coverage or no coverage should be incentive enough.

I think helmets on bicycles are ludicrous 10 trillion kids rode them for years with very few problems.

 

[lbhsbz]

I think people should be able to ride without them they want, but I always wore one even prior to it being law.
Insurance coverage or no coverage should be incentive enough.

I think helmets on bicycles are ludicrous 10 trillion kids rode them for years with very few problems.

The day you eat shit and bounce your melon off the sidewalk with a nasty concussion you mind change yore mind. That shit fucking hurts....and it didn't stop hurting for about 20 hours. Gmac is proof that brain transplants don't work right...I'll do what I can to save the one I've got and recommend the same to friends and family.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

likely contracted SARS

I am pretty certain I also went through that. it was as bad as I could have imagined...truly thought I was gonna die. coughed so hard I blacked out, massive headache, mad pain in arms & legs...

 

[just_floatin]

I feel an overwhelming urge to buy microsoft products.....

Why not. Ant Nancy and her husband just invested 10M in Microsoft last month. What do they know.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381701380877004801

 

[Uncle Dave]

I am pretty certain I also went through that. it was as bad as I could have imagined...truly thought I was gonna die. coughed so hard I blacked out, massive headache, mad pain in arms & legs...

"coughed so hard I blacked out" - same here first time ever - and when I woke up thats when I realized, I could die.

The other first for me was repeated uncontrollable coughing to to the point of vomiting.

 

[Uncle Dave]

The day you eat shit and bounce your melon off the sidewalk with a nasty concussion you mind change yore mind. That shit fucking hurts....and it didn't stop hurting for about 20 hours. Gmac is proof that brain transplants don't work right...I'll do what I can to save the one I've got and recommend the same to friends and family.

As a kid I had a steep driveway- I was washing my cr125 as a kid and I was sitting on it moving it around and my downslope foot slipped and I simply fell the long way at 0 miles an hour my head hit the pavement and saw stars for about 10 min likely mild concussion. I cannot imagine hitting your head at high speed.

That said if it means to much to somebody they are willing to risk it I think they should - thing is I also think they should pay the bill for that decision and not me.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

thats when I realized, I could die

my exact same conclusion. that is what makes me advocate for extreme caution in the current problem. I survived it, so it can be done, but damn I do not wish that thing onto anyone.

 

[Uncle Dave]

my exact same conclusion. that is what makes me advocate for extreme caution in the current problem. I survived it, so it can be done, but damn I do not wish that thing onto anyone.

I have a couple of thoughts

1. I think if I got the same thing being 20 years older my odds of making it are about half what they were.

2. I wonder if SARS- COV1 is close enough genetically to SARS COV-2 (19) that I built any immunities to it ?

Thing is there wasnt a reliable test for it in the short time , I had an immunoflourescense assay test that was inconclusive, and PCR tests were a joke back then.

 

[Christopher Lucero]

I have a couple of thoughts

1. I think if I got the same thing being 20 years older my odds of making it are about half what they were.

2. I wonder if its close enough to SARS- COV1 was close enough genetically to SARS COV-2 (19) that I built any immunities to it ?

Thing is there wasnt a reliable test for it in the short time , I had an immunoflourescense assay test that was inconclusive, and PCR tests were a joke back then.

yes, and then turn that on its head and imagine being 30 yrs old. Not a problem.

honestly, my mother died during the SARS 2012 thing. Right after an alaska cruise. (the headlines about the Grand Princess that was isolated at the beginning of the pandemic included a guy from our community here in north LA County and his wife...they are local radio station owners. I know them,)

Mom was diagnosed with 'pneumonia' (that is not a disease, it is a condition) and merely given palliatives and then docs sat on thumbs for two months watching her get sicker, then diagnosed lung cancer based on lung xrays. Three months from cruise to grave.

Again, honestly, I think we arrived at a state of diagnosis that allowed us to detect and diagnose diseasemuch better, and thus the medical profession started to do so, and they found an initial test case in the covid19 virus. There's a good TQ in the Economist from last month describing much of my speculation.

 

[SBMech]

This article is excellent and talks about tobacco as well.

Many good questions are asked and few of the answers make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Where do the individual rights stop and the public right take over and what role does th state play in this?

The continuing tensions between individual rights and public health. Talking Point on public health versus civil liberties

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If the current state gets involved, if they actually try to force it, and deny services to people who refuse, boy I tell ya, you are going to see some shit.

I do not believe except in very isolated cases should the government be able to force you to do ANYTHING.

Forcing people not to toss out their chamber pots into the street is completely different than forcing citizens to take some untried medicine, that is not a vaccine, with the label.

We also do not live in a Monarchy, or a Paternalistic society.

The article actually touches upon the reason for the discord, the fact that some idiot, who is supposed to only use powers granted in extreme cases of public health emergencies, can rule with more authority than the local Mayor, or State Governor.

All based upon an OPINION. Clearly seen with this "pandemic", since never has the "math" or "science" shown worked out, never been accurate, and proven to be fictional fabricated BULLSHIT.

The more of this crap that gets exposed the better, at least people can see what a shitty fucking job the people they vote for have done over the last century.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

As a kid I had a steep driveway- I was washing my cr125 as a kid and I was sitting on it moving it around and my downslope foot slipped and I simply fell the long way at 0 miles an hour my head hit the pavement and saw stars for about 10 min likely mild concussion. I cannot imagine hitting your head at high speed.

That said if it means to much to somebody they are willing to risk it I think they should - thing is I also think they should pay the bill for that decision and not me.

You aren't paying the bill, their insurance is. This is the slippery slope we are talking about. Helmets are law in most places even for kids, but you say it is ridiculous for kids to have to wear them? As such are you ok with footing the bill for kids that get injured because they weren't wearing helmets? You say 10 trillion kids rode bikes without helmets and had "very few problems" Even by the inaccurate numbers Covid has taken 562K people, in a country of 340 million (.17%). That is what I would call very few problems.

And again, it is fine for people to, eat smoke and drink whatever they want for a lifetime, and expect "us" to pay the bill for a lifetime of their unhealthy lifestyle?

 

[Uncle Dave]

You aren't paying the bill, their insurance is. This is the slippery slope we are talking about. Helmets are law in most places even for kids, but you say it is ridiculous for kids to have to wear them? As such are you ok with footing the bill for kids that get injured because they weren't wearing helmets?

And again, it is fine for people to, eat smoke and drink whatever they want for a lifetime, and expect "us" to pay the bill for a lifetime of their unhealthy lifestyle?

Lets remove the treat /no treat variable because thats ridiculously severe.

IF that person is on a corporate plan I am paying their bill (or their company is) and their choices effect everyone else on that plan.

If you chose no to wear a helmet and have a wreck - there should be some consequence to that decision in terms of what you pay to get treated, or what society owes you if you get laid up for life because of your choice. There is probably already a clause to that effect in their insurance now .

You CANNOT be a smoker or obese, or an alcoholic and get independent insurance for any reasonable amount of money today- you will pay for your choices. The ONLY way these people get plans is under a corporate umbrella which anonymizes their choices.

What people want is unlimited personal choice with no consequence and for someone else to picks up the tab if it all goes pear shaped.

I think the kids on bicycles are at extremely low risk and Im ok with society helping out children that have bicycle wreck. (we do anyway)
If we look at the data we should probably be helmeting them in the tub/ shower.
I think once you get into skateboard parks and stuff like that it changes.

 

[Uncle Dave]

No one has answered why Trump would bother getting the vaccine and urge everyone else to do the same?