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In Havasu prop 409

boater250s

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Yes or no on prop 409 in Lake Havasu City and why ? Getting all kinds of answers from people in the city just curious.
 

boatdoc55

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I just said to the wife I need to start looking into this. I don't have a clue but if there is the slightest chance some one is going to get a raise from this Prop, it's a big F--K NO from me.
 

boatdoc55

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We voted yes on it. The city has grown significantly since the original permanent base.

https://ww3.lhcaz.gov/topics/prop409

Thanks for the link. Some how I still have a knot in my gut that this is about somebody getting their pockets lined with our tax money. Do they really need 5 million more, I don't think so. Do they just want more money to squander since they see it sitting there minding it's own business, like when they stole Social Security funds?
 

boater250s

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I just said to the wife I need to start looking into this. I don't have a clue but if there is the slightest chance some one is going to get a raise from this Prop, it's a big F--K NO from me.
That's what am thinking !
 

Deja_Vu

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Thanks for the link. Some how I still have a knot in my gut that this is about somebody getting their pockets lined with our tax money. Do they really need 5 million more, I don't think so. Do they just want more money to squander since they see it sitting there minding it's own business, like when they stole Social Security funds?

I understand how you feel. I don't usually vote yes on Props.
I think the city has done a pretty good job with growth and new parks.

From what I have read, the concern is that if they can't increase the base like 85% of the cities in AZ have, then some services will need to be cut.
Supposedly this only affects the state budget allowance for the city.

From the city website:
Prop 409 does not impact the amount of taxes or fees the City collects. A “NO” vote does not reduce taxes or fees and a “YES” vote does not increase taxes or fees.
Prop 409 is specifically about how much the City can spend, regardless of the taxes or fees it collects.
 

Deja_Vu

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I think they have the money coming in, but they can't spend it...over the amount of the permanent base.
 

spectra3279

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What is that limit now. What would it increase to. Where would the extra money be spent.
I think they have the money coming in, but they can't spend it...over the amount of the permanent base.

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boater250s

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I think they have the money coming in, but they can't spend it...over the amount of the permanent base.
Why do they have the money coming in ? Have they been over taxing us to have a surplus ?
 

Taboma

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I think they have the money coming in, but they can't spend it...over the amount of the permanent base.

Yes or no ---- They state no increase in taxes, I think what they should admit, No immediate increase in taxes, but should we spend all or a fraction of our revised base increase, somebody is going to pay for it. So the really big question that they're skirting around is WHO, HOW MUCH and WHEN. With the info provided I'd be at a loss how to vote either, the primary question is being avoided.
 

Deja_Vu

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What is that limit now. What would it increase to. Where would the extra money be spent.

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Not sure what the base is now. They want to increase it by 5 mil. I think the City can spend it how they want.
Here is a link to their Budget:

https://www.lhcaz.gov/administrative-services/finance-and-budget/budget-and-budget-reports

Why do they have the money coming in ? Have they been over taxing us to have a surplus ?

As the city develops, increased property taxes are collected on land, homes and buildings that are newly constructed.
 

HB2Havasu

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Yeah the info on the site is very vague. No mention of current or future incoming/outgoing tax money. Is it a percentage of tax dollars or a hard cap? And yes if they are currently limited in their spending where is the excess tax dollars going???
 

Sunset

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Why do they have the money coming in ? Have they been over taxing us to have a surplus ?
NO. I still remember the sewer bull shit , How about the London bridge BS and now the Havasu Riviera .
Lake Havasu does not know how to manage the city.
 
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Shortdeck

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So where do they get the extra money from if taxes are not raised?

The city already has the money. It goes into a savings account basically. Once the city reaches its limitation cap, the state charges the city penalty fees.
There is a loop hole that the city has been using. They borrow the money and pay interest. Doesn't make sense since the city has the money, but can't spend it without being penalized.


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Deja_Vu

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If this is the case where does it go? if we were paying in to much taxes then maybe they should cut our taxes back?

Here is the 2018 Budget if you would like to see some figures.
https://ww3.lhcaz.gov/docs/default-source/department-documents/2018budgetbook.pdf?sfvrsn=d2b2e07c_4

Balancing the Budget for 17-18


The challenges listed here created a crimp in the budget planning for FY 17-18, especially for the General Fund. Departments’ requested budgets were reduced by more than $3 million in
order to balance on-going expenditures within the constraint of limited revenues. For example, nine authorized full-time positions will not be funded in FY 17-18. More than $1.25 million was reduced in departments’ supplies and services line items. The City Hall Refresh was postponed, vehicle purchases were delayed, training and travel reduced, recreation programs re-evaluated and the Energy Conservation Financing will be paid off early (maturity is 2026) to save the more expensive interest cost (5.68% before the federal subsidy).

Estimated Results for Fiscal Year 16-17

Overall, year-end estimates for FY 16-17 performed better than budget. During the budget process a year ago, we estimated ending this year with total available resources (also known as fund balance) of $79.6 million. Current projections estimate ending available resources of $95.6 million, $16 million more than budgeted.
 

sangerflattbottom

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The money is there and has been but due to the current permanent base the City must borrow money to accomplish goals. A legal work around but not a fiscally smart way to spend. It is not smart to borrow money for expenses when you have the funds available in the bank. Borrowing money costs taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to fund projects that could have been paid for through the general fund.

Here is a link to the City website discussing Prop. 409

https://www.lhcaz.gov/topics/prop409
 

boatdoc55

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It's all to confusing to me and when I'm confused I tend to say no just so something that I don't understand doesn't bite me in the ass 2 or 10 years down the line. I hope more light gets shed on this before the vote, I really do want to do the right thing but I'm tired of Government sticking it to me and I'm sure many of you are also.
 

USMC2010

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I almost always vote no on these deals and voted yes this time. As I understand it and above has been explained pretty well, money is already there, the state messes with them on limits. The one thing I think is BS is the claim services would get cut, they won’t without an increase.
 

WildWilly

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I watched a few of the city council meetings over the last few months when some of this was discussed. The biggest take aways as some mentioned above, is the city is actually borrowing against its own money and paying interest to fund expenses they already have. I can't remember the figure quoted but it was pretty significant in the hundreds of thousands wasted. Second, they approved funding for additional LEO's but did not approve additional fire, which per the studies is running at a defecit for the need, but they are also experiencing higher than average turn over because the rate of pay for city fire here is well below the average so the guys are leaving for more money elsewhere regularly. There were other issues mentioned but these 2 stood out most. And like others said, this is not an increase to the expenses, has zero impact on taxes within this prop. I think I also heard or saw that in AZ, over 80% of the jurisdictions have already approved similar props so Havasu is in that last than 20% that hasn't since the 80's.
 

Groper

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No,
Have you guys noticed the really nice 'Blue Wayfinding Signs" all over town, why do we need $500,000.00 worth of Fng POS signs all over town ?
We don't need no stinking signs all over town :mad:
Too me it's a waste of St. & City tax dollars.
How about a City ord. making homeowners clean up all the crap piled up in their front yards...I don't want to see all their shit....a**holes :mad:
 

Shortdeck

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No,
Have you guys noticed the really nice 'Blue Wayfinding Signs" all over town, why do we need $500,000.00 worth of Fng POS signs all over town ?
We don't need no stinking signs all over town :mad:
Too me it's a waste of St. & City tax dollars.
How about a City ord. making homeowners clean up all the crap piled up in their front yards...I don't want to see all their shit....a**holes :mad:

One of the cities main revenue streams is tourism. The signs are overpriced, but not everybody has been here before.

And this isn't the OC. It's Arizona. And some of the people here collect crap. [emoji3]


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boatdoc55

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I'll ask again, How do I know that 5 million isn't going into the pockets of the "God ol' Boy club" here in Havasu.
 

Shortdeck

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I'll ask again, How do I know that 5 million isn't going into the pockets of the "God ol' Boy club" here in Havasu.

To be honest, they don't ask, they take. The city manager, city attorney, city magristrate, etc all have gotten raises this year. It was in the newspaper. Is that the "good ole boy club"?

Once again, your not giving them any money. You are just allowing the city to spend it without borrowing(plus interest) or be penalized by the state.

I read this morning the spending limitation was for 4.7 million. They're asking for another 5 million, hoping for a new cap of 9.7 million.


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boatdoc55

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I watched a whole bunch of the suggested videos of town hall meetings amongst other and in one of the longer ones, one of the first comments about where the money goes is to shore up retirements. They are very clever to make sure everyone is a yes vote in these meetings.
 
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Wicky

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Just say NO to any new taxes....tell them to cut the fat and then, they can afford it.
 

TEBBY

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Yes or no on prop 409 in Lake Havasu City and why ? Getting all kinds of answers from people in the city just curious.

Vote YES!
Our Cops and Firefighters are asking for us to vote YES.

Public Safety needs our support!

Our Lake Havasu City Fire Department is grossly understaffed. The rapidly increasing transient (visitor) and permanent resident population has greatly reduced firefighters per capita. Also, our Professional Firefighters are grossly underpaid... no cost of living adjustment in 10 years. That’s B.S!!

The City already has the money to fund the needed increased staffing levels and cost of living, but it cannot spend it under current law. Which has permanently limited spending.

Prop 409 will increase that limit, allowing the City to apply those funds to Public Safety.

Please support public safety...
They are always there when we need them...
We, the residents (and visitors) should be there when they need us...
 

boatdoc55

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So when they get their "extra" 5M a year and go though their "surplus 38M" who's going to pay more to boost their "surplus" back up to support the 9.7M a year that they're hooked on???? How much of this 9.7M a year is going toward paying promised pensions? How much is going towards pay raises for city officials? Do we really need more parks?
They are being very vague on where this money is going to go but maybe we just need to pass it to see what's in it.:D Then wonder why we passed it when we get higher taxes in the future. Just saying it's for the good for the community isn't good enough for me, how bout you??
 

Bobby V

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So when they get their "extra" 5M a year and go though their "surplus 38M" who's going to pay more to boost their "surplus" back up to support the 9.7M a year that they're hooked on???? How much of this 9.7M a year is going toward paying promised pensions? How much is going towards pay raises for city officials? Do we really need more parks?
They are being very vague on where this money is going to go but maybe we just need to pass it to see what's in it.:D Then wonder why we passed it when we get higher taxes in the future. Just saying it's for the good for the community isn't good enough for me, how bout you??
Don't you live in Havasu. Can't you go to the meetings to get your answers. Or is to far to drive..lol
 

boatdoc55

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Don't you live in Havasu. Can't you go to the meetings to get your answers. Or is to far to drive..lol
One needs not to go to the meetings that they never advertise because they're all taped and put up on the internet. Maybe you should watch some of them to see if you can form some kind of an opinion. You know Bobby, you own a house here also, doesn't this concern you in any way or are you getting ready to sell. We both know people that have the power just want more and the power here is money and lots of it. They are wanting 5 million more a year on top of the 4.7 they get now, wouldn't it be nice to get that kind of raise??
 

WildWilly

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Prop 409 is not a spending prop, its not a tax prop etc. Its a status change that over 80% of the jurisdictions in AZ have already changed, Havasu being one of the last not to yet and suffering for it. Taxes, spending etc are completely outside of Prop 409, so if that is what you are worried about then watch for those elsewhere in other votes and proposals. What people aren't realizing, they can already spend the money we are talking about, but they are doing so by borrowing against it and paying hundreds of thousands in interest on top of the debt. So the arguments about no more spending, no more taxes etc when discussing 409 are just ill informed.
 

Deja_Vu

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So when they get their "extra" 5M a year and go though their "surplus 38M" who's going to pay more to boost their "surplus" back up to support the 9.7M a year that they're hooked on???? How much of this 9.7M a year is going toward paying promised pensions? How much is going towards pay raises for city officials? Do we really need more parks?
They are being very vague on where this money is going to go but maybe we just need to pass it to see what's in it.:D Then wonder why we passed it when we get higher taxes in the future. Just saying it's for the good for the community isn't good enough for me, how bout you??

You could always read the budget I linked in post # 18. The answers to your questions are in there...
 
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