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Isn't this called Triage?

4Waters

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Copy and paste the article, it wants me to pay
 

was thatguy

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2 hours ago.

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530RL

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The family office I work for is one of the largest donators to a local hospital including founding their heart and lung transplant centers.

CSC is now in effect. What it means is that healthcare will be rationed. Just a fact of the situation. And that means it will not only be rationed to COVID patients but to other patients. In simple terms where one might get treatment before CSC, they might not get treatment now as capacity is limited.

Yes that is called triage, but triage standards are based upon capacity and if there was not a shortage of capacity there would be more care available for both COVID patients and non COVID patients.

Equally concerning is the demand for lung transplants due to the after effects of COVID is rising on those that do not die.

I don’t honestly care if people think COVID is a big deal or not, or want to wear masks or not. I’m just passing on the reality of limited capacity and the reality of the long term effects even on those that survive this disease.
 

was thatguy

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The family office I work for is one of the largest donators to a local hospital including founding their heart and lung transplant centers.

CSC is now in effect. What it means is that healthcare will be rationed. Just a fact of the situation. And that means it will not only be rationed to COVID patients but to other patients. In simple terms where one might get treatment before CSC, they might not get treatment now as capacity is limited.

Yes that is called triage, but triage standards are based upon capacity and if there was not a shortage of capacity there would be more care available for both COVID patients and non COVID patients.

Equally concerning is the demand for lung transplants due to the after effects of COVID is rising on those that do not die.

I don’t honestly care if people think COVID is a big deal or not, or want to wear masks or not. I’m just passing on the reality of limited capacity and the reality of the long term effects even on those that survive this disease.


What’s the current occupancy?
 

LargeOrangeFont

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What is laughable is that they omit the part where Newsom was paying $1000 for nursing homes to take their Covid positive patients back to their nursing homes to die and infect others when hospitals HAD ICU beds and resources to care for them.

NY, MN and 2 other states were doing it as well, despite the CDC recommendations against the practice of sending elderly patients back where they came from.

This practice Is what caused the spikes in deaths in nursing homes.
 

LargeOrangeFont

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The family office I work for is one of the largest donators to a local hospital including founding their heart and lung transplant centers.

CSC is now in effect. What it means is that healthcare will be rationed. Just a fact of the situation. And that means it will not only be rationed to COVID patients but to other patients. In simple terms where one might get treatment before CSC, they might not get treatment now as capacity is limited.

Yes that is called triage, but triage standards are based upon capacity and if there was not a shortage of capacity there would be more care available for both COVID patients and non COVID patients.

Equally concerning is the demand for lung transplants due to the after effects of COVID is rising on those that do not die.

I don’t honestly care if people think COVID is a big deal or not, or want to wear masks or not. I’m just passing on the reality of limited capacity and the reality of the long term effects even on those that survive this disease.

From the reports I have heard, 2/3 of the ICU beds are filled with non Covid patients that didn’t go to the hospital when sick and are now near death because they went untreated.
 

530RL

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What’s the current occupancy?
From the reports I have heard, 2/3 of the ICU beds are filled with non Covid patients that didn’t go to the hospital when sick and are now near death because they went untreated.

As I have repeatedly told both of you I think people should be free to do whatever they want.


The reported fact is there is limited capacity in metro Phoenix. To the extent you guys think it is wrong, or it is a resource management problem, fine with me as I think you guys should view it as you wish.👍👍
 

LargeOrangeFont

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As I have repeatedly told both of you I think people should be free to do whatever they want.


The reported fact is there is limited capacity in metro Phoenix. To the extent you guys think it is wrong, or it is a resource management problem, fine with me as I think you guys should view it as you wish.👍👍

How much mustard did you have tonight? Please reread what you quoted that I said.

Please show me where I said hospitals had infinite capacity or that there was a resource management problem?

I simply said the normal amount of people that are dying unrelated to COVID Are still dying, and those people also need beds. They were either denied beds before or simply just waited to go to the hospital and are now in serious condition. I have heard those people are occupying more beds than usual for that reason.

That is all I said.
 

was thatguy

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As I have repeatedly told both of you I think people should be free to do whatever they want.


The reported fact is there is limited capacity in metro Phoenix. To the extent you guys think it is wrong, or it is a resource management problem, fine with me as I think you guys should view it as you wish.👍👍

Seemed like a simple inquiry to me? I didn’t even call you names or anything...which I’m admittedly prone to do.
 

JUSTWANNARACE

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As I have repeatedly told both of you I think people should be free to do whatever they want.


The reported fact is there is limited capacity in metro Phoenix. To the extent you guys think it is wrong, or it is a resource management problem, fine with me as I think you guys should view it as you wish.👍👍


Actually, "view it as you wish" kind of just irritated me.. not easy to do..

What SHOULD be happening, is the "TRUTH" should be what is reported in the news!! Not SOMEONES interpretation or exaggeration, to put people in fear!! When they are blaming the "spike" right now there is NO mention of ANY of it coming from the protest! Its only because people are going out for dinner, drinks, haircuts, private get togethers, ect.. not one mention of anything coming for these dumb fuks "peaceful protesting"..


Why?!?!?!
 
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530RL

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Actually, "view it as you wish" kind of just irritated me.. not easy to do..

What SHOULD be happening, it the "TRUTH" should be what is reported in the news!! Not SOMEONES interpretation or exaggeration, to put people in fear!! When they are blaming the "spike" right now there is NO mention of ANY of it coming from the protest! Its only because people are going out for dinner, drinks, haircuts, private get togethers, ect.. not one mention of anything coming for these dumb fuks "peaceful protesting"..


Why?!?!?!

Well sorry to irritate you.

Not sure where you get your news but it is fairly clear in all the reporting I see that all gatherings are contributing to the spread of the virus? All activities that ignore basic pandemic guidelines are contributing to spread.

With respect to view it as you wish, that is just my libertarian old person view that all individual conclusions are equally valid as long as one accepts the responsibility of their views. I have no control over their views. I reported the fact that hospitals are at CSC in Metro Phoenix. View it as you wish.
 

was thatguy

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Well sorry to irritate you.

Not sure where you get your news but it is fairly clear in all the reporting I see that all gatherings are contributing to the spread of the virus? All activities that ignore basic pandemic guidelines are contributing to spread.

With respect to view it as you wish, that is just my libertarian old person view that all individual conclusions are equally valid as long as one accepts the responsibility of their views. I have no control over their views.

5B36B666-7E79-4936-8CDF-A3A7BCA597A7.gif
 

JUSTWANNARACE

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Well sorry to irritate you.

Not sure where you get your news but it is fairly clear in all the reporting I see that all gatherings are contributing to the spread of the virus? All activities that ignore basic pandemic guidelines are contributing to spread.

With respect to view it as you wish, that is just my libertarian old person view that all individual conclusions are equally valid as long as one accepts the responsibility of their views. I have no control over their views. I reported the fact that hospitals are at CSC in Metro Phoenix. View it as you wish.

You say its "caused" by all gathering. Can you post a link to something that says "ALL' gatherings? Better yet, how about one that mentions anything about the "protest gatherings" and mention of COVID-19 or the hazards of gatherings of such size? Why are "personal" gatherings limited to 10 people(25 in some places) but gatherings of 100 if it a "protest"??
 

530RL

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You say its "caused" by all gathering. Can you post a link to something that says "ALL' gatherings? Better yet, how about one that mentions anything about the "protest gatherings" and mention of COVID-19 or the hazards of gatherings of such size? Why are "personal" gatherings limited to 10 people(25 in some places) but gatherings of 100 if it a "protest"??

Because I lack a degree or any training in epidemiology I have no idea why the guidelines are what they are? I have no idea why some things are open and others closed. But I do accept that I have no idea and for me that is a guiding principle. So I am simply left with the facts on the ground.

As an old person I watch PBS and they have had Fauci and the CDC guy on many times and in all cases they have clearly stated all large gatherings are contributors. They have shown videos of protests, bars, the salt river in Arizona and other examples. And they have repeatedly emphasized the risks of such activities, all of them.

I understand people have a natural human desire to take one side or the other. I just look at the data and try to make the best decision for myself whether it is health, business or my personal life. And as a result I typically land somewhere between the two sides and it has served me well in life.

But like I said, I understand others come to a different conclusion and that is totally cool. Multiple conclusions is what makes markets. Why some buy and others sell. Why some live and some die. Why some die rich and why some die poor. And fortunately why most do just fine.

I’d just like my death to be somewhere farther out in the future. :)
 
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530RL

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How much mustard did you have tonight? Please reread what you quoted that I said.

Please show me where I said hospitals had infinite capacity or that there was a resource management problem?

I simply said the normal amount of people that are dying unrelated to COVID Are still dying, and those people also need beds. They were either denied beds before or simply just waited to go to the hospital and are now in serious condition. I have heard those people are occupying more beds than usual for that reason.

That is all I said.

Well then you are reiterating the point of the author in the posted article.

COVID is raising demand on hospitals and non COVID patients will be also be subject to CSC and as a result may end up with less care as it will not be available.

That was the original point of the article. This pandemic does not just effect COVID patients but others needing health care also.

And it would appear you accept that point.👍👍👍
 

Performance Grips

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The family office I work for is one of the largest donators to a local hospital including founding their heart and lung transplant centers.

CSC is now in effect. What it means is that healthcare will be rationed. Just a fact of the situation. And that means it will not only be rationed to COVID patients but to other patients. In simple terms where one might get treatment before CSC, they might not get treatment now as capacity is limited.

Yes that is called triage, but triage standards are based upon capacity and if there was not a shortage of capacity there would be more care available for both COVID patients and non COVID patients.

Equally concerning is the demand for lung transplants due to the after effects of COVID is rising on those that do not die.

I don’t honestly care if people think COVID is a big deal or not, or want to wear masks or not. I’m just passing on the reality of limited capacity and the reality of the long term effects even on those that survive this disease.
Hard to believe. I know multiple people doctors and nurses throughout so cal that say different. Maybe it's just your hospital? I dunno but it ain't happening in most places.
Actually, "view it as you wish" kind of just irritated me.. not easy to do..

What SHOULD be happening, is the "TRUTH" should be what is reported in the news!! Not SOMEONES interpretation or exaggeration, to put people in fear!! When they are blaming the "spike" right now there is NO mention of ANY of it coming from the protest! Its only because people are going out for dinner, drinks, haircuts, private get togethers, ect.. not one mention of anything coming for these dumb fuks "peaceful protesting"..


Why?!?!?!
I know 2 ER doctors and 2 ER nurses in so cal (Different hospitals btw) they say different. So a lot of information is bull shit, scare tactics, and of course politics. It's definitely a concern but not even close to the problem that some say. Maybe one certain hospital. That some guy here is talking about. Even Gavin Newsom said the beds in California were only 39% of capacity.
 

was thatguy

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Well then you are reiterating the point of the author in the posted article.

COVID is raising demand on hospitals and non COVID patients will be also be subject to CSC and as a result may end up with less care as it will not be available.

That was the original point of the article. This pandemic does not just effect COVID patients but others needing health care also.

And it would appear you accept that point.👍👍👍

Surely this can’t be news?
My scope was postponed 3 months initially.
And in the mean time the hospital stood empty-ish.
“Raising demand”? How so?
You haven’t answered my simple and pointed question...”what is the current occupancy”??
What the fuck is yore point unless you know that answer??
 

Flying_Lavey

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Copy and paste the article, it wants me to pay
Odd, Im not a subscriber either but was able to read the hate filled bullshit. Here it is.



You may think that the coronavirus and COVID-19, the disease it causes, are frightening enough. But Arizona has just activated a rulebook for rationing hospital care that is truly terrifying.

In brief, the rules allow hospitals to deny critical healthcare resources such as ventilators to patients based on medical judgments about their likelihood of living even five more years despite surviving COVID-19.

In practical terms, that means that on average, older adults are more likely to be denied care than younger persons. Those with medical conditions other than COVID-19 would be more vulnerable to denials than those judged to be healthier, whatever their age.

Health care planning must do everything possible never to need [Crisis Standards of Care].
NATIONAL ACADEMIES OF SCIENCE, ENGINEERING AND MEDICINE

Under the rules, doctors making triage judgments that deprive patients of necessary care will be immune from legal liability.

Arizona’s so-called crisis standards of care, or CSC, isn’t unique among the states. But it provides an up-to-the-minute look at the harsh choices facing medical personnel across the country thanks to our unfit and unprepared political leadership, if one can call it leadership at all.

From the federal government down through the states, the vacuum of leadership has exposed millions of Americans to sickness and death while reducing our healthcare system to a patchwork of overwhelmed facilities.

The lack of planning and preparedness is the outstanding failure of the response to the crisis in the United States. That’s the implicit judgment of the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine.

The academies stated in an assessment of crisis standards of care in March that the primary principle was that “health care planning must do everything possible never to need CSC.”

The academies also specified that in the current pandemic, “public trust is essential.” That means that leaders would have to be “proactive, honest, transparent and accountable” when discussing the condition of their healthcare systems and institutions.

Has that happened? The answer obviously is no. President Trump and Republican governors such as Arizona’s Doug Ducey and Florida’s Ron DeSantis have suppressed statistics showing the true rate of infection in their states. Trump’s approach to the crisis has been focused in large part in trying to minimize its impact, even denying its existence.

States other than Arizona have similar rulebooks to be dusted off in a major emergency. Arizona, however, is the only state that has activated its crisis standard of care procedures — so far.


“A lot of states actually have activated their crisis standards of care plans,” Cara Christ, director of Arizona’s Department of Health Services, said during a press conference Monday with Ducey. That appears to be untrue. Though most states have prepared a crisis plan, no others have activated it.

Several, however, may be on the verge of doing so, at least regionally, since the surge in cases is placing immense stresses on local capacities. In California, for example, Riverside County’s ICU beds were reported to be 99% occupied over the weekend and Los Angeles County is projecting the possibility of running out of hospital beds in two to three weeks and exhausting its intensive care unit beds sometime in July.

In Imperial County, an agricultural county on the Mexican border where 23% of tests are coming back positive for COVID-19, 500 patients were transferred to adjoining counties to relieve the local pressure, Gov. Gavin Newsom said Monday.

California is one of several states ranking as leading hot spots of coronavirus infection, though its statewide test positivity average of 5.9% over the last seven days remains lower than other surging states such as Arizona (24.4%), Florida (15.6%) and Texas (14.1%).

All those states are guilty of having reopened commercial and retail establishments, as well as public facilities such as beaches, too soon — notably before it was clear that they had adequately clamped down on the community spread of the coronavirus.

Newsom has urged Californians to continue social distancing and mask-wearing throughout the crisis; his error was to give local officials too much latitude to decide for themselves when they could reopen their economies. Now Newsom is signaling that such deference may be coming to an end.

Newsom pressured Imperial County into rolling back its reopening, in part by threatening that “the state of California will assert itself and make sure that happens” if officials fail to do so. As my colleague Taryn Luna reports, he also has hinted at statewide orders aimed at imposing anti-virus rules, though he has not been specific.

In other states, governors have been more permissive and even interfered with local officials’ judgments. Until June 17, Ducey forbade cities and counties to impose stricter rules than the state. In practical terms, that prevented them from keeping bars, restaurants and retail establishments closed or requiring residents to wear masks in public.

Ducey relented under pressure from the mayors of Phoenix, Tucson and Flagstaff and in the face of an undeniable surge in COVID-19 cases.

Ducey’s indulgent approach to social distancing measures probably contributed to his constituents’ failure to embrace them. Polls taken from late March through the end of April showed that only 30% to 40% of Arizona residents regularly wore face masks in public; in California, New York and New Jersey, the rate was as high as 60%.

Arizona waited until March 30 to issue a stay-at-home policy, long after other states. Ducey lifted the policy early, on May 15.

Ducey joined Trump at an indoor political rally in Phoenix on June 23 at which an estimated 3,000 persons were in attendance, crammed shoulder to shoulder and mostly maskless — even though a week earlier the city had ordered masks to be worn. Ducey wore a mask bearing the Arizona state seal, but Trump was maskless.

Not until Monday did Ducey reimpose anti-virus measures, prohibiting large gatherings, ceasing the issuance of new special event licenses, and closing bars, gyms, movie theaters, waterparks and tubing rentals. His order will remain in effect through the month. He didn’t order masks to be worn in public.

By then, the state already had activated its crisis standards of care, or rationing plan. Let’s take a look.

Like other states’ plans, Arizona’s relies chiefly on a metric known as a SOFA Score, for “sequential organ failure assessment.” The score is based on the condition of six major organ systems: lungs, circulatory, heart, kidney, liver and neurological.

Arizona assigns points to patients according to their SOFA score range, to a maximum of four points for the most severely affected. Then it adds up to four more points for a subjective assessment of a patient’s survivability: two points for those whose death is expected within five years despite successful treatment of COVID-19, and four for those whose death is expected within one year despite successful treatment. Priority for treatment is given to those with lower scores.

The guidelines state that judgments are to be made regardless of “race, ethnicity, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability, veteran status, age, genetic information, sexual orientation, gender identity, quality of life, or any other ethically irrelevant criteria.”

But several of these factors obviously will play into the point system. Black patients on average tend to suffer from more medical conditions than others, in part because their incomes are lower on average and their access to medical care more limited. Older residents also suffer from more health challenges. And how do medical personnel assess a patient’s “quality of life”?

Some of these factors are especially relevant in Arizona, where residents 65 and older constitute 23% of the adult population, above the national average of 20.7%. Florida skews even older, with 25.6% of its adult population 65 and older.

The prospects of subjective judgments creeping into triage judgments is great because the SOFA score itself, despite its apparent objectivity, is an imperfect tool.

The scores are “poor predictors of individual patients’ survival,” the National Academies found in its assessment of crisis standards. That’s especially true for patients suffering acute respiratory failure, one of the key symptoms of COVID-19.

As a result, “these scores are not suitable for excluding patients with acute respiratory failure... from receiving critical care” in the pandemic.

One can’t blame Arizona for implementing a rationing plan aimed at delivering crisis care to those judged most likely to benefit from it. But its leaders can be blamed for allowing the state to reach the point where rationing is deemed necessary. The seeds of its disaster were planted long ago.
 

RodnJen

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For what it’s worth, there were 35 spine surgeries scheduled this past Monday in the Phoenix area. Only 11 of those surgeries occurred and took place in smaller surgery centers. Elective surgeries are being cancelled due to increase in Covid cases and deaths.
 

was thatguy

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For what it’s worth, there were 35 spine surgeries scheduled this past Monday in the Phoenix area. Only 11 of those surgeries occurred and took place in smaller surgery centers. Elective surgeries are being cancelled due to increase in Covid cases and deaths.

Were they cancelled due to actual capacity issues? Or were they cancelled due to projected capacity issues?
 

LargeOrangeFont

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Were they cancelled due to actual capacity issues? Or were they cancelled due to projected capacity issues?

When are you going to realize that no one is going to answer your questions? 🥴
 

RodnJen

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Were they cancelled due to actual capacity issues? Or were they cancelled due to projected capacity issues?

Don‘t know. But if you are a patient waiting for a surgery or a medical professional who makes theif money in this particular market, you are screwed either way. Covid census’ are up over the last two weeks.
 

was thatguy

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Don‘t know. But if you are a patient waiting for a surgery or a medical professional who makes theif money in this particular market, you are screwed either way. Covid census’ are up over the last two weeks.

So it’s completely possible that, yet again, reaction to a situation that isn’t necessarily manifesting itself as inpatient overload is costing people through lack of treatment for other things and likely to cost medical staff as well.

My buddy had back surgery today. His surgeon got him on the “necessary” list last week or it have been delayed yet again as his condition steered him ever closer to a wheelchair.
My own scope was delayed 3 months, thank god I got it done last week because I DO get polyps cut out every time. (That’ll be what gets me most likely)
 

Flying_Lavey

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I know I read a few weeks ago that there were at least 8 deaths in OC alone directly caused by the postponement of elective surgery. The criteria for "elective Surgery" is shakey at best and has absolutely led to deaths, likely equaling or surpassing that of COVID in many counties. How do you justify those stats there Rod? These restrictions and mandates are beyond bullshit.
 

530RL

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Were they cancelled due to actual capacity issues? Or were they cancelled due to projected capacity issues?


It would appear according to the Republican Governor and the Republican Vice President to be both a physical capacity issue as well as a personnel availability issue.

 

Flying_Lavey

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It would appear according to the Republican Governor and the Republican Vice President to be both a physical capacity issue as well as a personnel availability issue.

Well as it was said many times over and reported, many hospital staff had been laid off due to the lack of elective procedures. Now they have to re-hire and we all know thats not a single step process. Also, after this whole pandemic bullshit started, Duchey is as much a republican as Dave's new Dually is a Mustang. They have the same name circled next to them, but that's about the only similarities.
 

rmarion

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or maybe the spike is that they are testing 1000k more. than at the original outbreak...

but the deaths are falling off the charts...

how about some F.ING COMMON SENSE and SOMEONE ACTUAL READ THE F.ING DATA!!!! that is presented from the CDC...

this is all F.ING POLITICAL....
 

was thatguy

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It would appear according to the Republican Governor and the Republican Vice President to be both a physical capacity issue as well as a personnel availability issue.


Um...I’m well aware of the political affiliations of our Governor and our VP. Not sure why you feel the need to underscore that?
I’m also well aware of personnel shortages due to previous lay offs.
 

RodnJen

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I know I read a few weeks ago that there were at least 8 deaths in OC alone directly caused by the postponement of elective surgery. The criteria for "elective Surgery" is shakey at best and has absolutely led to deaths, likely equaling or surpassing that of COVID in many counties. How do you justify those stats there Rod? These restrictions and mandates are beyond bullshit.

You read a few weeks ago eight deaths? Stick to hvac.
 

Flying_Lavey

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You read a few weeks ago eight deaths? Stick to hvac.
Yes. It was quoted and posted here as well. I said a few weeks cause I don't remember the precise time frame nor the exact number stated in that article but for some reason 8 sticks out to me. Each one of them were for various heart procedures that were deemed "elective" then without them they went into cardiac arrest and died.

But you know all now right Rod? Cause a lack of an elective procedure could NEVER lead to someone's passing. Pull you head out of Hillary's ass and see the REAL causes of this bullshit lockdown. Not projections and twisted interpretations of statistics.

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RodnJen

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Yes. It was quoted and posted here as well. I said a few weeks cause I don't remember the precise time frame nor the exact number stated in that article but for some reason 8 sticks out to me. Each one of them were for various heart procedures that were deemed "elective" then without them they went into cardiac arrest and died.

But you know all now right Rod? Cause a lack of an elective procedure could NEVER lead to someone's passing. Pull you head out of Hillary's ass and see the REAL causes of this bullshit lockdown. Not projections and twisted interpretations of statistics.

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A delayed procedure can absolutely lead to someones death. It’s not just hospitals limiting access, it’s medical professionals cancelling for their own safety and that of their staff.
 

Flying_Lavey

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A delayed procedure can absolutely lead to someones death. It’s not just hospitals limiting access, it’s medical professionals cancelling for their own safety and that of their staff.
Sure, there are some where its the medical professionals, but we all know, the percentage of that being the case is very small. And even so, the decision to delay "elective" proceedures has, and will continue, to kill people, and in many areas at a higher rate than that of the virus.
 

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These are my opinions based on my experiences as a fire captain in the greater Los Angeles area, and what I'm hearing from my physician wife. Yes triage is a normal procedure, we do it with every patient. The issues arise when we are overwhelmed and don't have enough resources for every patient. Take the Las Vegas shooting for instance, i can't be certain because i wasn't involved in patient care, but I'd assume 1st responders and physicians had to make some tough decisions on critical patients that may have had a chance for survival if they didn't have 50 other critical patients. We hope that we're never in that position, but it happens.

If we can predict an influx of patients we take every precaution, to prevent becoming overwhelmed. In the case of Covid, we hope to slow the spread so that all critical patients (not just covid) get the best care possible. Covid is real, at least where my wife and I work, and it is taxing an already stressed medical system. I've been watching Mohave Valley closely and I think they're in trouble, along with the rest of AZ.
 

JDKRXW

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Another view of lockdowns:


Sweden's leaders were being absolutely hammered earlier in this pandemic because they didn't lock down as tightly as most of their neighbours. Example:kids were left in school and restraunts didn't fully close. So called epidimological 'experts' vilified this approach at the time.
Now: despite the title of this artical, there is a ton of backtracking by many of these same 'experts' - saying maybe the Swedes weren't so dumb and 'maybe we need to wait and see' how this works out.
The Swedes handled the covid breakouts in their old folks homes poorly, but as the artical says, the longer covid drags on ....the smarter the Swedish government is going to look. If it hangs around for a couple of years they're going to look like geniuses.
 
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