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Just open the G*dm Valves !

ChevelleSB406

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Our company sells software that manages all this. Admittedly I haven't read much in detail yet, but I am sure that if there has been some malicious attack, fail safes have locked it down, and the fear would be the same people still having access to do something much worse, so might need to ensure its secure network before even opening things back up.
 

monkeyswrench

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Our company sells software that manages all this. Admittedly I haven't read much in detail yet, but I am sure that if there has been some malicious attack, fail safes have locked it down, and the fear would be the same people still having access to do something much worse, so might need to ensure its secure network before even opening things back up.
That being the case, it seems like we've over-complicated things by making everything linked on "secure' networks. Seems like it would be a pretty easy fix...pop open some J-boxes, and hotwire the stuff;) The controls are high tech, but not so much the functions being controlled?
 

SixD9R

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Long story short, I really don’t think it would be safe or feasible to try and run something like that in a manner not intended by the original design.

My company owns and operates industrial gas plants. It’s not that part of the business I’m in so I’m no expert here but I’ll say this.

Most valves have a supply power of some sort. Could be electrical power like 120, 240, 480V, etc. or air and also a signal which tells them what to do. The signal could be low pressure air or a 4-20 MV signal. They also have a fail safe position that is predetermined by the system designer if they lose power or signal. That could be open, closed or wherever they are when the problem started.
Some valves have manual hand wheels but many only work with their intended power source- meaning they can’t be actuated by hand. To try and even run a modem piping system would take dozens of trained people with some sort of very good communication between them and those people could be spread out over hundreds or thousands of miles in this case.
 

bldrinker

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My industry is going towards automation everything. Which seems odd since we have millions of cyber attacks per week.
 

monkeyswrench

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Long story short, I really don’t think it would be safe or feasible to try and run something like that in a manner not intended by the original design.

My company owns and operates industrial gas plants. It’s not that part of the business I’m in so I’m no expert here but I’ll say this.

Most valves have a supply power of some sort. Could be electrical power like 120, 240, 480V, etc. or air and also a signal which tells them what to do. The signal could be low pressure air or a 4-20 MV signal. They also have a fail safe position that is predetermined by the system designer if they lose power or signal. That could be open, closed or wherever they are when the problem started.
Some valves have manual hand wheels but many only work with their intended power source- meaning they can’t be actuated by hand. To try and even run a modem piping system would take dozens of trained people with some sort of very good communication between them and those people could be spread out over hundreds or thousands of miles in this case.
That's kind of the problem...we use technology to replace knowledge and man power. In a perfect situation, automation is great, it takes out human error. Obviously, it's easily kneecapped. This could be done over phone lines, maybe cell signals...with no risk to the bad guy. In the old days, damage had to be done on site. This took risk, and also meant you had to overcome the humans there. Now, the few left running the show, are trying problem solve things that would have been impossible before the modern times.

So maybe running a manual bypass at certain locations should be looked into. KISS philosophy...less moving parts, less points of failure.
 

monkeyswrench

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You can't hotwire a pipeline that's over a thousand miles long.
Is it not just a series of pumps and valves? Does it have to run it's entirety, or incrementally? Technology is obviously not in our favor on this fiasco. ;)

I don't know the operation of intrastate gas lines. If these operations are using the internet, not really safe. If they ran the pipe 3000 miles, seems like running a secure data line linking sites would be easy.
 

Racer56

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The pipeline transports a 100 million gallons a day. Running it manually would remove all safe guards they have in place. It would also make it difficult to ship the different products, such a jet A, unleaded etc.
 

boatnam2

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That is a lot of barrels , all the refineries in so cal don’t come close to making that amount. Better get to building them electric trains and airplanes, quit depending on big oil .
 

C08H18

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The pipeline transports a 100 million gallons a day. Running it manually would remove all safe guards they have in place. It would also make it difficult to ship the different products, such a jet A, unleaded etc.
i would agree that automation makes it work allows a single pipeline to support different products, but we also need provisions for manual override when shit goes to hell (like the current situation). I have worked in high tech all my life and serve as an executive in the industry. BUT I will be the first to call out the need for manual intervention.
 

monkeyswrench

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
I believe Bohpal was during the "manual" days with a few safety systems turned off. Seems like the world has forgotten about this.
I wouldn't say I forgot...I was 7, and my view of world affairs was watching Robotech, or maybe Voltron...didn't watch a lot of news, nor read the papers.

Reading that looks like a horrible clusterfuck of many mistakes. It's amazing the plant functioned for as long as it did before the final disaster. Not familiar with "MIC" but isocyanate a little bit. Nasty stuff that they require supplied air I think in the workplace now. Sadly, the plant was probably built their because of lax enforcement coupled with cheaper labor costs.
 

RiverDave

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That being the case, it seems like we've over-complicated things by making everything linked on "secure' networks. Seems like it would be a pretty easy fix...pop open some J-boxes, and hotwire the stuff;) The controls are high tech, but not so much the functions being controlled?
or instead of paying millions to automate.. pay 100’s of thousands and have techs stand there and do it with solid state..
 

DC-88

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destroying everything ,comes natural, for the left.
If there isn't serious push back it won't be long before these cocksuckers create a nationwide shortage on breakfast , lunch, and dinner just like their comrades before them did. In my industry this week the big one was the drums of toxic shit that gets blown into spray foam insulation. It's great stuff and has it's place , but we are now required to use it in certain areas due to codes resulting from lawsuits and shitty builders who ruined the ability to use existing techniques for everyone else so now it's unavailable and everything comes to a halt. My Democrat client is the one who is the most agitated about the current pace of their particular project ....🤔
 

monkeyswrench

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If there isn't serious push back it won't be long before these cocksuckers create a nationwide shortage on breakfast , lunch, and dinner just like their comrades before them did. In my industry this week the big one was the drums of toxic shit that gets blown into spray foam insulation. It's great stuff and has it's place , but we are now required to use it in certain areas due to codes resulting from lawsuits and shitty builders who ruined the ability to use existing techniques for everyone else so now it's unavailable and everything comes to a halt. My Democrat client is the one who is the most agitated about the current pace of their particular project ....🤔
What are they having sprayed with SPF? For some contractors that means farming out, or buying an expensive rig.
 

DC-88

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What are they having sprayed with SPF? For some contractors that means farming out, or buying an expensive rig.
Decks over living space, vaulted ceilings with no attic mostly as far as requirement . The guys who thought is was a good idea to drill some Kustom vents in the freeze blocks on vaults and didn't vent the ridge were the root of the problem lol . Don't get me wrong , I love when a client wants it 100% thickness everywhere because it works amazing and my % loves it compared to batts/blown, but it's been tough to get in Ca the last few weeks for sure . :cool:
 

monkeyswrench

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Decks over living space, vaulted ceilings with no attic mostly as far as requirement . The guys who thought is was a good idea to drill some Kustom vents in the freeze blocks on vaults and didn't vent the ridge were the root of the problem lol . Don't get me wrong , I love when a client wants it 100% thickness everywhere because it works amazing and my % loves it compared to batts/blown, but it's been tough to get in Ca the last few weeks for sure . :cool:
I do some maintenance for an insulation contractor out here, running 4 SPF rigs. Money making pig pens! I did some SPF for roofing in Ca, but been out of it for a while now. Toying with the idea of getting an insulation rig when the next "dip" comes around. Just to be set for the next cycle. I like the idea of not falling off roofs these days. Wife says I'm crazy, but always has;)
 

Fastdadtsmith

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So if the grid is susceptible to such an attack, how long do I have to safeguard my DOGE?
 

rivermobster

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You guys are funny...

Just think about cars today. 700hp and almost 30mpg. Do you all think that happened with some valves and switches?

How about the Mercury 450's hanging off the back of new boats. Is anyone gonna complain about the programing/technology that makes that happen? The CNC machines that had to be programed to build all the precision parts in that thing? The programing that went into the EFI computers that run it?

How about the programming that allows RDP to exist? Who's gonna complain about that?

Truth is...

Russia has been doing this shit for decades. They have been practicing on other countries with HUGE success and they are now pretty set to tackle our systems.

The Solar Winds deal is unreal. They poked around inside our government systems for almost a year without being noticed!!! I'm going to guess most of you are unaware of what happened there, or you wouldn't be complaining about this.

This is a simple ransom ware attack. Put on by small time actors, that was mitigated right away and will be last week news very soon.

Odds are the Russians are STILL poking around inside our countries computer systems (unnoticed) and will be taking down out entire power grids eventually.

But the good news is...

We are working on doing the same shit to them. So the real question is.....

Who will be first?? Stay tuned! 😁
 

Hydroman55

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That's kind of the problem...we use technology to replace knowledge and man power. In a perfect situation, automation is great, it takes out human error. Obviously, it's easily kneecapped. This could be done over phone lines, maybe cell signals...with no risk to the bad guy. In the old days, damage had to be done on site. This took risk, and also meant you had to overcome the humans there. Now, the few left running the show, are trying problem solve things that would have been impossible before the modern times.

So maybe running a manual bypass at certain locations should be looked into. KISS philosophy...less moving parts, less points of failure.
Spent 40 years managing chemical plants and you hit the nail on the head.
As with everything now, in the old days technology was expensive and labor was cheap. In today’s world totally reversed.
 

monkeyswrench

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You guys are funny...

Just think about cars today. 700hp and almost 30mpg. Do you all think that happened with some valves and switches?

How about the Mercury 450's hanging off the back of new boats. Is anyone gonna complain about the programing/technology that makes that happen? The CNC machines that had to be programed to build all the precision parts in that thing? The programing that went into the EFI computers that run it?

How about the programming that allows RDP to exist? Who's gonna complain about that?

Truth is...

Russia has been doing this shit for decades. They have been practicing on other countries with HUGE success and they are now pretty set to tackle our systems.

The Solar Winds deal is unreal. They poked around inside our government systems for almost a year without being noticed!!! I'm going to guess most of you are unaware of what happened there, or you wouldn't be complaining about this.

This is a simple ransom ware attack. Put on by small time actors, that was mitigated right away and will be last week news very soon.

Odds are the Russians are STILL poking around inside our countries computer systems (unnoticed) and will be taking down out entire power grids eventually.

But the good news is...

We are working on doing the same shit to them. So the real question is.....

Who will be first?? Stay tuned! 😁
My old river neighbor's son had worked for PG&E as a professional "geek". He did network security type stuff. He had said "attacks" were a common issue, but most were easily stopped. This was probably 10 years ago. About a year later, he was working for the government in the same type of position. I asked him if the job was better. He smiled and said, "Yes! Now instead of just trying to fix the damage, I'm allowed to go after the the source!" Not being a computer guy, I assume that there are ways to trace back and "return the favor".
 

rivermobster

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My old river neighbor's son had worked for PG&E as a professional "geek". He did network security type stuff. He had said "attacks" were a common issue, but most were easily stopped. This was probably 10 years ago. About a year later, he was working for the government in the same type of position. I asked him if the job was better. He smiled and said, "Yes! Now instead of just trying to fix the damage, I'm allowed to go after the the source!" Not being a computer guy, I assume that there are ways to trace back and "return the favor".
Indeed their are...
 

Jed-O

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I agree with the circus. Why in the fucking hell can't a bunch of $60.00 an hour dickheads turn a valve here and there and make a motherfuckin phone call when it's time for the other Sixty dollar and hour dude to shut it off.??? Riddle me that batman!
We have been doing simple tasks like this for almost a damn century and now because of the internet it's all fucked up???
C'mon man!!! It's physical shit. Not fucking software. Turn the valve, make a phone call, and go to staples to buy new shit, tell the Russian ransom ware guys to fuck off! And move the fuck on! Sorry about your loss internet porn employees, you can pay the ransom for that shit!
Where's the Tylenol!?
 
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