Kobe Bryant helicopter firm was not allowed to fly in fog

[spectras only]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332546

Island Express Helicopters was limited to operating when the pilot was able to see clearly when flying.

The pilot reportedly had the federal certification to fly the helicopter relying only on cockpit instruments.

Island Express Helicopters was restricted to flying under what are known as visual flight rules, meaning pilots must be able to see clearly outside the aircraft in daylight, Keith Holloway, a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) spokesman, told the Reuters news agency.

 

[TPC]

Helicopter didn't have unsafe ground approach warning either.
Pretty much becoming more obvious pilot error in spite of what witnesses on the ground say.

Wife and I flown twice in the S-76.
Fast and fun but lots of vibration we remember.
"Feels like it's trying it's best to come apart" my friend Bob Alden said one trip to Vegas.

Once in a Aerospatiale the air conditioning compressor belt broke with a huge bang and it shook the pilot while we remained calm.
I have a lot of faith in auto rotation especially in a desert landing environment.

 

[Sleek-Jet]

Lots of "may haves" in that article.

 

[HCP3]

The pilot and company were operating legally under FAR Part 135. The pilot made a mistake. Took 8 lives plus himself. These articles are getting dumb.

 

[Go-Fly]

One thing we do know is, the pilot flew the helicopter into the side of a mountain like a fucking dart and the last thing that went through his mind was the tail rotor. From that moment on, it will be speculation at best. What a horrible way to lose your life.

 

[Rvrluvr]

Who gives a shit! Sad they died but jeeez. Move on

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Who gives a shit! Sad they died but jeeez. Move on

The pilot and company were operating legally under FAR Part 135. The pilot made a mistake. Took 8 lives plus himself. These articles are getting dumb.

Yep. This is just like when Paul Walker died and the media was trying to say Porsche’s were unsafe and shouldn’t be on the road.

Just like when Kevin Hart crashed his car and they tried to say all custom cars should be outlawed and need “harnesses”

It is all just a bunch of conjecture and jargon. It was a pilot mistake or mechanical failure. Time to let the .gov investigation happen and move on.

 

[Singleton]

Sucks this event occurred.
Thoughts are with the family’s.

However, this is 100% pilot error IMO. Charter company ceased operations this week as well.
The item no one is talking about is the charter company was not insured to operate with SVFR, they only had insurance to operate in VFR conditions,

 

[ToMorrow44]

He was operating under Special VFR which is a privilege given (mainly) to helicopters to operate in weather below VFR minimums (1000’ ceilings, 3mi visibility). Completely normal, I did it myself twice last week.

I’m a commercial and instrument rated helicopter pilot. We fly dual pilot 99% of the time anyway, but it’s required at night and any time less than VFR. Google “spacial disorientation”. Shits real, and doesn’t matter how experienced or talented you are, any human body is susceptible to it. Hence why we fly dual pilot, to back each other up in conditions which are susceptible to spacial D.

My guess is he (inadvertently) flew into low visibility and lost all visual references, then his body was telling him which way was up. While driving down the freeway, close your eyes for 10 seconds and see where you end up by seat of the pants, that’s essentially what happened here except he was working with 3 axis, not just 2.

My point is, I don’t fault him for what happened. Are there things he could’ve done differently? Sure. Hindsight is always 20/20. But I could see myself getting into the same situation, but use this as a learning experience, that’s how we honor them.

 

[Looking Glass]

Who gives a shit! Sad they died but jeeez. Move on

WELL,as a matter of fact. I do give a shit,these were innocent young people who put their trust in a Company and a Pilot. Kobe was an extremly generous person with his time and money and could have been the total opposite. The Coach was loved by his players as well as their parents and reports are that he gave so much of his time for his players no matter where they came from. The young girls had their whole life ahead and it is sickening to think of how it ended. Damn,people if you do not care or can not say anything positive just away and say nothing as it does nothing constructive to pop in here and IMO say something so ignorant as this. The fact that it has become so common, I have to wonder about this society.
RIP.

 

[BajaT]

Who gives a shit! Sad they died but jeeez. Move on

WELL,as a matter of fact. I do give a shit,these were innocent young people who put their trust in a Company and a Pilot. Kobe was an extremly generous person with his time and money and could have been the total opposite. The Coach was loved by his players as well as their parents and reports are that he gave so much of his time for his players no matter where they came from. The young girls had their whole life ahead and it is sickening to think of how it ended. Damn,people if you do not care or can not say anything positive just away and say nothing as it does nothing constructive to pop in here and IMO say something so ignorant as this. The fact that it has become so common, I have to wonder about this society.
RIP.

 

[LuauLounge]

It will all come out in the lawsuits. From the outside, I see a "special relationship" between the charter company and Kobe. This wasn't an Uber relationship. Did Kobe own the aircraft and Island Express manage it or some other arrangement? Too many tax angles for Kobe to be just a fare paying guy.

 

[boatpi]

What I don’t get is the air speed they believe he was traveling that that’s what bothers me more than anything.

 

[ToMorrow44]

What I don’t get is the air speed they believe he was traveling that that’s what bothers me more than anything.

I’ll agree that might be a point of pilot error. The S-76 is a very fast helo, Cruise speed of 155kts so that’s kind of a norm for them, actually I think he was going ~125kts, so slower than usual. That being said, that’s why SVFR is granted to helicopters because they can slow down and even stop and hover if conditions get bad. Not an expert in the S-76 by any means, so not sure what their operating parameters are.

 

[jones performance]

 

[Done-it-again]

I watched this the other day. Lots of good info how helo’s fly very informative

 

[Rvrluvr]

WELL,as a matter of fact. I do give a shit,these were innocent young people who put their trust in a Company and a Pilot. Kobe was an extremly generous person with his time and money and could have been the total opposite. The Coach was loved by his players as well as their parents and reports are that he gave so much of his time for his players no matter where they came from. The young girls had their whole life ahead and it is sickening to think of how it ended. Damn,people if you do not care or can not say anything positive just away and say nothing as it does nothing constructive to pop in here and IMO say something so ignorant as this. The fact that it has become so common, I have to wonder about this society.
RIP.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Welcome to America

What I don’t get is the air speed they believe he was traveling that that’s what bothers me more than anything.

This guy seems to think it was barely moving

 

[wzuber]

What I don’t get is the air speed they believe he was traveling that that’s what bothers me more than anything.

An eye witness interviewed on the news said it was very slow, just as one would expect to see in a situation like this.

 

[rrrr]

What I don’t get is the air speed they believe he was traveling that that’s what bothers me more than anything.

That was after he pulled collective and went into the fog, became disoriented, and lost control of the helicopter. Had nothing to do with controlled flight.

 

[Old Texan]

That was after he pulled collective and went into the fog, became disoriented, and lost control of the helicopter. Had nothing to do with controlled flight.

That's what I was thinking. When he got disoriented he perhaps involuntarily sped up. Poor guy was in a bad spot to say the least.....

 

[Wedgy]

This guy knows flying, Buddy on episode is a Helicopter pilot. This is the latest update. He reports on Cali fires, Oroville debacle, ALL Aircraft accidents. 767 pilot on a medical leave. Has a LOT of industry sources.

 

[ssc]

I have flown with this pilot. Seemed like a nice, competent, safe guy. This is the company that flies between the mainland and Catalina. I have been informed by friends and family that reporters are in Avalon trying to get info.

Cheers, Steve

 

[aka619er]

I listened to a nest camera recording of the crash and felt I could hear the helicopter over speed into impact. Also, I agree with what most have said about about him flying into imc and the rest being history.

One thing I have read is he was an instrument rated pilot as was the helicopter equipped. It just didn't have terrain warning or insurance for such flight. If this is the case, it just shows again how dangerous imc flying is.

In the end I am curious on who gets sued first.

 

[Yellowboat]

I listened to a nest camera recording of the crash and felt I could hear the helicopter over speed into impact. Also, I agree with what most have said about about him flying into imc and the rest being history.

One thing I have read is he was an instrument rated pilot as was the helicopter equipped. It just didn't have terrain warning or insurance for such flight. If this is the case, it just shows again how dangerous imc flying is.

In the end I am curious on who gets sued first.

Every one will. The pilots company/ estate, the mechanics, atc, the manfatctor... every one you can think of will end up in court. Either as a witness or as a party to the lawsuit

 

[HB2Havasu]

The pilot even though he had a VFR Certificate wasn’t the sharpest. Why would you be flying that low knowing there are hills adjacent to you that are hundreds of feet higher than your altitude?

My guess is he got disoriented, lost his horizon, and disregarded his gauges. Had he been watching his altimeter he clearly would have known he was heading for ground. Island Helicopter might as well file for Chapter 7 now! They’re Fucked!

 

[ToMorrow44]

The pilot even though he had a VFR Certificate wasn’t the sharpest. Why would you be flying that low knowing there are hills adjacent to you that are hundreds of feet higher than your altitude?

My guess is he got disoriented, lost his horizon, and disregarded his gauges. Had he been watching his altimeter he clearly would have known he was heading for ground. Island Helicopter might as well file for Chapter 7 now! They’re Fucked!

You just proved how little you know about flying

 

[ToMorrow44]

One thing I have read is he was an instrument rated pilot as was the helicopter equipped. It just didn't have terrain warning or insurance for such flight. If this is the case, it just shows again how dangerous imc flying is.

Agreed, but more importantly is how dangerous going from VMC to IMC inadvertently is. If you’re prepared for it and know you’re gonna be flying in the clouds, no big deal. But when the lights just turn out all of the sudden, that’s when it sucks.

 

[ibelio]

think of Kennedy years ago samething got him also

 

[monkeyswrench]

@ToMorrow44
"Spacial Orientation" question. Above you had mentioned the freeway speed and distance traveled. On a three axis scenario, does this mean he could have been traveling in a forward motion as intended, but at a slightly downward angle? I guess what I mean is, did he think he was in level flight, but actually losing altitude? Only flown in a helicopter once, and being strapped down and not able to see anything really felt weird...

 

[Willie B]

... Friend of mine was LAPD Swat...then LAPD copter pilot ...then the was training instructor for the LAPD helicopter pilots...
...I don’t see him very often but I wonder if it would be worth hooking up with him to get his opinion???...Hmmm???...

 

[LowRiver2]

... Friend of mine was LAPD Swat...then LAPD copter pilot ...then the was training instructor for the LAPD helicopter pilots...
...I don’t see him very often but I wonder if it would be worth hooking up with him to get his opinion???...Hmmm???...

Sounds like Bruce H?

Being flown by LAPD/LAFD/LASD since 1998 several times a year I learned a few things:
Never fly with tourist charter helo’s (this one wasn’t) because they 100% do not keep their maintenance schedules on par with Govt. or FAA standards due to costs

Most helo pilots that are for hire have way less time on the stick than former/current govt. pilots because, again flying a helo (operating) is expensive

Govt. pilots aren’t pressured by clients or income to push equipment beyond the limits unless in exigent circumstances, and they still will have the advanced equipment for those times.

LAPD has lost two pilots and seriously injured about a dozen pilots/ flight officers in the last 50 years.
Still a small percentage granted 1-2 Airships are airborne 20-23 hours a day the vast majority of the year.

 

[Danger Dave]

In the end I am curious on who gets sued first.

Kobe's estate has the deepest pockets and most likely the most insurance, I'm sure that will be the target of many suits.

 

[copterzach]

I know so little about flying IMC that I got nothing....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SnoC653]

He was operating under Special VFR which is a privilege given (mainly) to helicopters to operate in weather below VFR minimums (1000’ ceilings, 3mi visibility). Completely normal, I did it myself twice last week.

I’m a commercial and instrument rated helicopter pilot. We fly dual pilot 99% of the time anyway, but it’s required at night and any time less than VFR. Google “spacial disorientation”. Shits real, and doesn’t matter how experienced or talented you are, any human body is susceptible to it. Hence why we fly dual pilot, to back each other up in conditions which are susceptible to spacial D.

My guess is he (inadvertently) flew into low visibility and lost all visual references, then his body was telling him which way was up. While driving down the freeway, close your eyes for 10 seconds and see where you end up by seat of the pants, that’s essentially what happened here except he was working with 3 axis, not just 2.

My point is, I don’t fault him for what happened. Are there things he could’ve done differently? Sure. Hindsight is always 20/20. But I could see myself getting into the same situation, but use this as a learning experience, that’s how we honor them.

Welcome to the controversy. This is exactly what I estimated had happened in the original Kobe thread. I am type rated in the 76 and have actual IFR time and have made the transition from SVFR to IFR a few times while flying for the military. As you have pointed out, having a second pilot is a huge plus when flight conditions are sketchy at best. The blackhawk is a mandatory 2 pilot aircraft in the military due to the complexities and work load if there is ever an emergency which is basically the same platform.

Having fought through Spatial Disorientation and come out right side up, I won't fault any pilot that doesn't. I also pointed out that the pilot of this flight was fighting for his life until the very end. All the conjecture and speculation about his abilities are really in poor taste since the guy lost his life trying to fix what he was probably helpless but fighting hard to overcome. The original releases said ground track radar showed the helicopter at 165 kts and over 4000 fpm decent. That is in excess of the aircraft's VNE and would indicate it was flown into the ground. The NTSB report had the decent at around 2000 fpm and speed around 150 which would indicate the pilot was trying to fix it when the hill got them. And with either of those rates of decent, the helicopter was clear and above the terrain before the crash. So no, he didn't forget or not know how high the terrain was in the area. He was clear and above it and then lost orientation and while fighting the fight to regain control and fly on just instruments, inadvertently flew into the hill he could no longer see.

And for the record, SVFR is still legal visual flight rules for the charter company to fly in. The VFR limitation does explain why they didn't fly VFR on top and just shoot an approach at the destination (which would have been much safer and faster). So lets blame the Gov't for allowing VFR only charter operations. They have really deep pockets. And SVFR clearances are not just granted to helicopters. Airplanes use them as well. But you won't find a pilot that will not agree that SVFR flying is one of the most dangerous modes of flight you can fly. Look how many EMS aircraft crash every year flying in reduced visibility. This was an accident, not an on purpose. Had anyone, especially the pilot, known this would be the outcome the flight wouldn't have departed.

I do agree the best way to honor the people involved in this is to learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again.

 

[SnoC653]

I know so little about flying IMC that I got nothing....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do they even have clouds in Texas? JK

I remember my first orientation flight after arriving in Texas from Germany. The instructor pilot was apologizing for the poor visibility at only 9 miles. I can't remember many SVFR days while in Texas. They did exist but they are few and far between.

 

[Old Texan]

Question for the pilots. I fully understand the spatial disorientation and how it effects the pilot. But rather than fight it, why would a pilot not ojust back off the controls and put the craft into a hover position. Take a deep breath and get his bearings?

I know that sounds simple to do and likely is far more difficult, but that is the advantage a helicopter has over plane. The ability to hold stationary.

 

[Dan Lorenze]

I remember driving in to work that Sunday on the 101, it was unusually foggy out. At what point does a pilot say "I'm sorry folks, I just don't feel comfortable flying in these conditions".

 

[SnoC653]

Question for the pilots. I fully understand the spatial disorientation and how it effects the pilot. But rather than fight it, why would a pilot not ojust back off the controls and put the craft into a hover position. Take a deep breath and get his bearings?

I know that sounds simple to do and likely is far more difficult, but that is the advantage a helicopter has over plane. The ability to hold stationary.

That is a good question but even though a helicopter can hover, the pilot has to make it do so. Airplanes inherently want to fly. Helicopters don't. You make them fly and if you stop making them do what you want them to, they will try to bite you in a blink. There are some very advanced systems capable of making one hover hands off without ground reference, but I've never seen one actually employed. If you want to see what it is like get a toy drone. Take it outside where there might be a breeze and try and get it to hover in one place without any control inputs. It just won't work. Even if you can set it up in a hover, as soon as anything starts it to move it takes multiple control inputs to make it remain stationary again. And that takes ground reference to detect the movement and make the proper adjustments.

 

[ToMorrow44]

@ToMorrow44
"Spacial Orientation" question. Above you had mentioned the freeway speed and distance traveled. On a three axis scenario, does this mean he could have been traveling in a forward motion as intended, but at a slightly downward angle? I guess what I mean is, did he think he was in level flight, but actually losing altitude? Only flown in a helicopter once, and being strapped down and not able to see anything really felt weird...

Absolutely! Could be as little as when he lost visuals, maybe he felt like he was in a climb, so he lets out collective and pushes the nose over. Sometimes you make inputs like that, and your body is still telling you your climbing, so you let out more collective and more nose down etc. and the whole time you’re in a crazy decent. I’ve read many mishaps of that exact thing.

Welcome to the controversy. This is exactly what I estimated had happened in the original Kobe thread. I am type rated in the 76 and have actual IFR time and have made the transition from SVFR to IFR a few times while flying for the military. As you have pointed out, having a second pilot is a huge plus when flight conditions are sketchy at best. The blackhawk is a mandatory 2 pilot aircraft in the military due to the complexities and work load if there is ever an emergency which is basically the same platform.

Having fought through Spatial Disorientation and come out right side up, I won't fault any pilot that doesn't. I also pointed out that the pilot of this flight was fighting for his life until the very end. All the conjecture and speculation about his abilities are really in poor taste since the guy lost his life trying to fix what he was probably helpless but fighting hard to overcome. The original releases said ground track radar showed the helicopter at 165 kts and over 4000 fpm decent. That is in excess of the aircraft's VNE and would indicate it was flown into the ground. The NTSB report had the decent at around 2000 fpm and speed around 150 which would indicate the pilot was trying to fix it when the hill got them. And with either of those rates of decent, the helicopter was clear and above the terrain before the crash. So no, he didn't forget or not know how high the terrain was in the area. He was clear and above it and then lost orientation and while fighting the fight to regain control and fly on just instruments, inadvertently flew into the hill he could no longer see.

And for the record, SVFR is still legal visual flight rules for the charter company to fly in. The VFR limitation does explain why they didn't fly VFR on top and just shoot an approach at the destination (which would have been much safer and faster). So lets blame the Gov't for allowing VFR only charter operations. They have really deep pockets. And SVFR clearances are not just granted to helicopters. Airplanes use them as well. But you won't find a pilot that will not agree that SVFR flying is one of the most dangerous modes of flight you can fly. Look how many EMS aircraft crash every year flying in reduced visibility. This was an accident, not an on purpose. Had anyone, especially the pilot, known this would be the outcome the flight wouldn't have departed.

I do agree the best way to honor the people involved in this is to learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again.

Couldn’t have said it better myself! In terms of VFR on top, I’m guessing there was some perceived pressure to stay underneath since he was taking the pax to Kobe’s training facility, ie not at an airport. And if he shot an instrument approach somewhere (Camarillo probably) now his pax have to figure out how to get to their destination, probably gonna be late, etc. Again, that’s where hindsight is 20/20 but I’m sure that played a roll in his decision making. And honestly, the weather reporting at most of the airports was BARELY below VFR minimums, wasn’t KBUR 1100/2.5. At that point SVFR is just a technicality ya know..?

 

[ToMorrow44]

That is a good question but even though a helicopter can hover, the pilot has to make it do so. Airplanes inherently want to fly. Helicopters don't. You make them fly and if you stop making them do what you want them to, they will try to bite you in a blink. There are some very advanced systems capable of making one hover hands off without ground reference, but I've never seen one actually employed. If you want to see what it is like get a toy drone. Take it outside where there might be a breeze and try and get it to hover in one place without any control inputs. It just won't work. Even if you can set it up in a hover, as soon as anything starts it to move it takes multiple control inputs to make it remain stationary again. And that takes ground reference to detect the movement and make the proper adjustments.

What he said. Our helo has a hover mode that with the press of a button will transition to a stationary hover. But I can tell you, if you’re in the clouds and disoriented and push that button, the autopilot then controlling the aircraft can exacerbate any spacial disorientation.

 

[Racey]

Question for the pilots. I fully understand the spatial disorientation and how it effects the pilot. But rather than fight it, why would a pilot not ojust back off the controls and put the craft into a hover position. Take a deep breath and get his bearings?

I know that sounds simple to do and likely is far more difficult, but that is the advantage a helicopter has over plane. The ability to hold stationary.

Just like Sno said, you really need a visual ground reference to hover in a copter. Inertial gauges aren't good enough because slight drift won't be registered on them (in a way meaningful for the pilot to use real time anyway). GPS doesn't really update fast enough to do the same either, and any sudden shift in axis can rapidly become unrecoverable from a hover without visual reference. Being in forward motion is the most stable and predictable flight state, which is exactly why you rarely see them take off in a rising hover, they get off the ground and start moving forward as soon as is permissible.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

One of things mentioned in that guys commentary was that the medevac helos use a gps based altimeter in addition to a normal altimeter. Its my understanding that altimeters provide info on altitude from sea level, that doesnt take into consideration mountains correct?

 

[530RL]

Just like Sno said, you really need a visual ground reference to hover in a copter. Inertial gauges aren't good enough because slight drift won't be registered on them (in a way meaningful for the pilot to use real time anyway). GPS doesn't really update fast enough to do the same either, and any sudden shift in axis can rapidly become unrecoverable from a hover without visual reference. Being in forward motion is the most stable and predictable flight state, which is exactly why you rarely see them take off in a rising hover, they get off the ground and start moving forward as soon as is permissible.

As Racey states, you can't hover by instruments. It just doesn't work without a visual cue.

With respect to takeoffs, the primary reason you see forward movement on takeoffs versus "max performance takeoffs" (straight up) is because it requires less power and keeps one inside the HV diagram. In many cases, you may not have sufficient power relative to weight and density altitude to do a max performance takeoff.

 

[spectras only]

^^^^
We have Topflight Helicopters here in my town Penticton BC. They've been in the helicopter training business for seven decades. I spend times at this airport just watching helis training and practicing vertical take offs/hovers all day.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5228818/okanagan-flight-school-trains-military-helicopter-pilots/

 

[Yellowboat]

To get an idea of how easy it is to get messdd up with out a visual refrence. Put a desk chair i the middle of the room facing a certain direction. Put a blind fold on, have some one rotate the chair in any direction for 30 seconds. Now try to point to the direction you were in at the start. Remove the limd fold and see how far off you are.

Now imagine, this is done in 3d and you have almost no sense of movment.

We use to do this all the time in the coast gaurd and we had to point towards north. After a while you can get pretty good, but if you are not ready for it, you will not even be close

 

[ToMorrow44]

One of things mentioned in that guys commentary was that the medevac helos use a gps based altimeter in addition to a normal altimeter. Its my understanding that altimeters provide info on altitude from sea level, that doesnt take into consideration mountains correct?

Correct, barometric altimeters report MSL = mean sea level, height above sea level. We also have radar altimeters that use a radar signal to give you AGL = above ground level. RadAlts don’t do anything for rising terrain since the reading is directly below the belly of the helicopter.

 

[copterzach]

My glass cockpit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bigbore500r]

To get an idea of how easy it is to get messdd up with out a visual refrence. Put a desk chair i the middle of the room facing a certain direction. Put a blind fold on, have some one rotate the chair in any direction for 30 seconds. Now try to point to the direction you were in at the start. Remove the limd fold and see how far off you are.

Now imagine, this is done in 3d and you have almost no sense of movment.

We use to do this all the time in the coast gaurd and we had to point towards north. After a while you can get pretty good, but if you are not ready for it, you will not even be close

You used to do this with a chair, or in helicopters?

 

[Bigbore500r]

I’ve been fascinated by reading and watching videos on IIMC accidents and how to survive, as on paper it would seem simple to look at your gauges and climb away from the ground sure and steady. Of course I’m not a pilot.

This video was pretty good at explaining the difficulties and challenges, from a helicopter pilots angle. Check it out

 

[colenighthawk]

Please let them rest in peace