lake havasu atorney for boat related ticket

[gmnhra]

who is the rdp approved attorney for boat related stuff?

"Transom Riding " ticket in Thompson bay in a bennington pontoon . people were in the rear facing seats behind rails...Total B.S.

would normally just pay and move along but this is a second class misdemeanor... ????

thanks in advance

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Thats fucked up, we have a rear lounger, with the rails they cant ticket you. Total BS.

 

[185EZ]

They put the rails there so it's legal to ride in back
They don't know what they're doing

 

[Ziggy]

Which agency ticketed you?

 

[240Hallett]

who is the rdp approved attorney for boat related stuff?

"Transom Riding " ticket in Thompson bay in a bennington pontoon . people were in the rear facing seats behind rails...Total B.S.

would normally just pay and move along but this is a second class misdemeanor... ????

thanks in advance

“Behind rails” meaning inside of or aft of?

 

[outboardrick]

I'm sure it was just a stop so they could ask "Have you had anything to drink"?
I had some good advice once that I didn't take, but it turned out to be true.....Just involve the public defender, the outcome will be the same and you'll save a ton of money.

 

[RiverDave]

who is the rdp approved attorney for boat related stuff?

"Transom Riding " ticket in Thompson bay in a bennington pontoon . people were in the rear facing seats behind rails...Total B.S.

would normally just pay and move along but this is a second class misdemeanor... ????

thanks in advance

Was it an AZ police officer that wrote the ticket?

If so aim not even sure you need a lawyer. You can print out the statute and it’s pretty clear that none of what you were doing is illegal.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Transom riding tickets are not cheap..........some of our friends kids were doing the wake surfing thing and three of them were riding on the back jump seats, there are no rails on those boats, I think it was like $350 per person fine.

 

[gmnhra]

so the people were on the "inside" (safe side) of the railing. ticket written by Mohave County Sherriff..
the "contact" was a bit "aggressive" in my opinion, but there was no alcohol involved, but the one officer was a bit "over the top". It was memorial weekend and I just know to shut up a let them do what they do, and that arguing on the water is a loosing proposition
just trying to avoid the process of:

appear in court june 26 to plead not guilty
then a pre trail hearing
then (if necessary) an actual hearing

total b.s. is that the court still has not received the ticket...
hoping that by taking the day to drive to LHC Wednesday the 26th that the ticket is not there and it is dismissed..

 

[riverroyal]

Do you have a pic of the boat? Where are the rails
I have rear loungers. They have people in them every time I start and move. I’ve passed dozens of law guys that way

 

[riverroyal]

Mine has the chain, they is supposed to be the property line from transom to not

 

[530RL]

so the people were on the "inside" (safe side) of the railing. ticket written by Mohave County Sherriff..
the "contact" was a bit "aggressive" in my opinion, but there was no alcohol involved, but the one officer was a bit "over the top". It was memorial weekend and I just know to shut up a let them do what they do, and that arguing on the water is a loosing proposition
just trying to avoid the process of:

appear in court june 26 to plead not guilty
then a pre trail hearing
then (if necessary) an actual hearing

total b.s. is that the court still has not received the ticket...
hoping that by taking the day to drive to LHC Wednesday the 26th that the ticket is not there and it is dismissed..

If no one shows up on the 26th due to clerical error, make sure you ask the judge to dismiss the ticket "with prejudice". Judges typically do not dismiss with prejudice unless you ask.

 

[gmnhra]

mine is single engine but this is exactly what the condition was

 

[2Driver]

Seems BS but what does the law state exactly. Where’s boat cop.

 

[530RL]

On the ticket, what was the code he cited you under?

Was it this one?


https://www.azleg.gov/ars/5/00341.htm

 

[Lavey29]

I am not sure how that would be considered illegal at all. I have the rear loungers also so perhaps it is because the passengers are not in line of sight while underway. I would fight the ticket but do some research under boating laws to see if you can successfully argue it. Not sure if water cites are handled similar to road tickets in havasu but my wife got a speeding ticket up there and she completed a simple online drivers ed course and ticket was dismissed with no fees at all.

I think your argument primarily deals with what is considered the transom on your toon. Legal definition of that would most likely support your argument.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

This is interesting, curious how its gonna play out............all of our friends have rear loungers and there are always folks back there. My guess is since it was a holiday it was a cop on hand for the holiday and not a water regular.

 

[RiverDave]

What was the statute written on the ticket?

 

[Ziggy]

Probably an extra overtime collector leo that isn't savy on the water as Once-Daily suggested.
Perhaps MCSO didn't send it in because it'll fail in court.

 

[Tom Slick]

mine is single engine but this is exactly what the condition was

View attachment 766032

Looks like a rear facing back seat. So how they could even remotely consider that transom riding is beyond me? I personally wouldn't waste money on an attorney. I would research the law and appear in front of the judge with your evidence. This will be dismissed. The crappy part of this is your complete waste of time and money having to go to Havasu to appear in court.

 

[USMC2010]

You can go online to request a court date eliminating the physical appearance plea step. It will save you a trip here if you are out of town.

 

[LHC Kirby]

On the ticket, what was the code he cited you under?
Was it this one?
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/5/00341.htm

Based on code above - I would say that the primary function of the backrest in picture is to be tilted back to be a seat facing forward... secondary to provide a relaxing area... if you have documentation from manufacture - it might help.

But I think you have a fight ahead .... best of luck .... of course let us know results.

 

[PlanB]

Good luck with the kangaroo court out there.

Edit: BTW, Bennington puts the railing on the rear loungers and swingbacks so passengers can ride there while underway. You can order a boat with or without them.

 

[TrojanDan]

I am not sure how that would be considered illegal at all. I have the rear loungers also so perhaps it is because the passengers are not in line of sight while underway. I would fight the ticket but do some research under boating laws to see if you can successfully argue it. Not sure if water cites are handled similar to road tickets in havasu but my wife got a speeding ticket up there and she completed a simple online drivers ed course and ticket was dismissed with no fees at all.

I think your argument primarily deals with what is considered the transom on your toon. Legal definition of that would most likely support your argument.

You may not pay a fee for the traffic violation but you pay a fee for the “privilege” of attending traffic school. Amounts to about the same cost as paying a traffic fine.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

Good luck with the kangaroo court out there.

Edit: BTW, Bennington puts the railing on the rear loungers and swingbacks so passengers can ride there while underway. You can order a boat with or without them.

When you order them without them the seats have higher sides in the rear, I guess that keeps them legal that way.

 

[sirbob]

View attachment 766070

Based on code above - I would say that the primary function of the backrest in picture is to be tilted back to be a seat facing forward... secondary to provide a relaxing area... if you have documentation from manufacture - it might help.

But I think you have a fight ahead .... best of luck .... of course let us know results.

Why do you say the PRIMARY function is to be tilted back - it looks to me like a 50/50 proposition - it tilts either way?

Does it say on it it should tilted rearward while moving? or something to that effect?

I'm not understanding your comment based on the picture shown.

 

[PlanB]

When you order them without them the seats have higher sides in the rear, I guess that keeps them legal that way.

You can also order with the rear loungers or swingback (like pictured above) without the railing. Same exact boat, but you can't ride back there without the railing. With the railing it's supposed to be legal. I have rear loungers like you describe that are inside the actual fencing of the boat. The railing is supposed to make up for being outside the fencing.

 

[LHC Kirby]

Why do you say the PRIMARY function is to be tilted back - it looks to me like a 50/50 proposition - it tilts either way?

Does it say on it it should tilted rearward while moving? or something to that effect?

I'm not understanding your comment based on the picture shown.

I’m no lawyer, just giving an opinion... boats go forward in most cases.... seat has option to face either way... my thought before others posted that the manufacturer says it’s okay.... was the liability of riding backwards... so that prompted my PRIMARY FUNCTION.

 

[ka0tyk]

good luck. id just pay the fine and move on with life.

 

[PlanB]

^^^ A sun pad outside the fencing or railing would not be the same IMO.

 

[Lavey29]

You may not pay a fee for the traffic violation but you pay a fee for the “privilege” of attending traffic school. Amounts to about the same cost as paying a traffic fine.

Not for her ticket in AZ. First offense no fines at all there. All completed online and then I called the court and clerk verified the online course and ticket dismissed. But I do think there was a small fee for the online course so you are probably right there but it wasn't that much.

 

[LHC Kirby]

I would call the area in question in the picture a sun pad .... best of luck .

 

[Racey]

View attachment 766070

Based on code above - I would say that the primary function of the backrest in picture is to be tilted back to be a seat facing forward... secondary to provide a relaxing area... if you have documentation from manufacture - it might help.

But I think you have a fight ahead .... best of luck .... of course let us know results.

Isn't that an official advertisement from the MFG? if so that would be exhibit A for defense

 

[sirbob]

I’m no lawyer, just giving an opinion... boats go forward in most cases.... seat has option to face either way... my thought before others posted that the manufacturer says it’s okay.... was the liability of riding backwards... so that prompted my PRIMARY FUNCTION.

I've had a few boats with that type of setback and I guess I never once thought the primary use was only looking forward. In fact I had a helm seat that had the same set up.

I guess it's just an opinion - with no legal bearing - but I would see it as equal use forwards and backwards. Also I might add, I never heard of a liability for riding backwards in a backwards facing seat? Lots of boats have seats that face back in the cockpit area.

Anyway - just talking out loud...

 

[PlanB]

Isn't that an official advertisement from the MFG? if so that would be exhibit A for defense

If you go to Bennington's website and look at their image gallery, there are pics of people riding in rear lounger and swingbacks while underway with the railing. I understand state laws very, but the very reason they offer the railing as an option is so that it is legal to ride in those locations.

https://www.benningtonmarine.com/pontoon-boats-gallery/

 

[gmnhra]

On the ticket, what was the code he cited you under?

Was it this one?


https://www.azleg.gov/ars/5/00341.htm

yes this was the code...
my plan so far is to show on Wednesday and be prepared to show the layout of the boat and see if the judge is in a mood to reduce the charge to something lesser and pay a dopey fine or do a boater education class... if the mood is poor, I will plead not guilty and go thru the b.s. to get a real hearing....

 

[LHC Kirby]

I've had a few boats with that type of setback and I guess I never once thought the primary use was only looking forward. In fact I had a helm seat that had the same set up.

I guess it's just an opinion - with no legal bearing - but I would see it as equal use forwards and backwards. Also I might add, I never heard of a liability for riding backwards in a backwards facing seat? Lots of boats have seats that face back in the cockpit area.

Anyway - just talking out loud...

The part in your reply that I underlined - I don’t think it’s a seat, but instead a sun pad - see post regarding boatcop above.

 

[ONE-A-DAY]

The part in your reply that I underlined - I don’t think it’s a seat, but instead a sun pad - see post regarding boatcop above.

Our old toon had a sun pad behind the rear seat up high, level with the seat backs, with that you could easily roll off the back onto the drive with a little blip of the throttle, nothing at all like a rear lounger set up with railings all around it.

 

[530RL]

yes this was the code...
my plan so far is to show on Wednesday and be prepared to show the layout of the boat and see if the judge is in a mood to reduce the charge to something lesser and pay a dopey fine or do a boater education class... if the mood is poor, I will plead not guilty and go thru the b.s. to get a real hearing....

Here is some free advice worth exactly what is costs.....

Print out 5-341 and highlight with a yellow marker sentence B and Sentence 1. Bring pictures with you from the manufacturer showing that area being used while underway, not while at idle.

You said something to the effect that the court did not have the ticket yet. If you show up and you are not on the docket, make sure you are politely forceful and state you are here per the ticket. The judge is neutral. If someone from the county fumbles around and asks for a continuance because they have a paper mix up try the following:

a) I am here as required by the ticket, the prosecution is not prepared to go forward, having me drive back here from wherever you drove from is a hardship, not of your making and you would like the ticket dismissed with prejudice as you complied and the prosecution is wasting the courts time. No reason to argue about the merits of the ticket, as the prosecution has no one there. You might get lucky.

b) If the prosecution wants to go forward without the officer who wrote the ticket, ask that the ticket be dismissed with prejudice as you can not inquire as to his familiarity with your boat, its construction, the railing, the amount of time he spends patrolling the water and the intended manufacturers design that this area was specifically designed to be used as a protected area while underway and is in compliance with 5-341 subpart B1.

c) If they all do show up, just be a regular person, explain the railing, show the manufacturers pictures of people on it while underway, and point out it was designed to be used while underway in compliance with 5-341 subpart B1. The burden is for them to prove that part was not designed consistent with 5-341 B1 and the manufacturers pictures should make a normal judge get it and dismiss it.

Good luck.

 

[oldschool]

 

[185EZ]

Interesting to see all the different replies to something that seems so obvious
Would have been so much better if the friendly officer just told everyone to move to the front of the boat and have a nice day

 

[riverroyal]

View attachment 766070

Based on code above - I would say that the primary function of the backrest in picture is to be tilted back to be a seat facing forward... secondary to provide a relaxing area... if you have documentation from manufacture - it might help.

But I think you have a fight ahead .... best of luck .... of course let us know results.

Thats interesting. The transom starts at the gate but the seat are beyond it.
I dunno....

 

[riverroyal]

Ive had 50 cop boats in the last 3 years pass me with people on the seat . No issue
I always hook the chain while moving

 

[BoatCop]

yes this was the code...
my plan so far is to show on Wednesday and be prepared to show the layout of the boat and see if the judge is in a mood to reduce the charge to something lesser and pay a dopey fine or do a boater education class... if the mood is poor, I will plead not guilty and go thru the b.s. to get a real hearing....

No lawyer needed.

B. A person shall not operate a watercraft while allowing a person to ride on the gunwales, the transom or the decked over bow of a watercraft propelled by machinery operating in excess of wakeless speed except if:


1. That portion of the watercraft was designed and constructed for the purpose of carrying passengers at all speeds.

If the picture posted above is from a manufacturer's website, brochure or advertisement, regarding your model of boat, then it appears that it was "designed and constructed for the purpose of carrying passengers at all speeds". That picture and maybe a letter or affidavit from the manufacturer or dealer would show that the citation was unwarranted.

 

[gmnhra]

No lawyer needed.

B. A person shall not operate a watercraft while allowing a person to ride on the gunwales, the transom or the decked over bow of a watercraft propelled by machinery operating in excess of wakeless speed except if:


1. That portion of the watercraft was designed and constructed for the purpose of carrying passengers at all speeds.

If the picture posted above is from a manufacturer's website, brochure or advertisement, regarding your model of boat, then it appears that it was "designed and constructed for the purpose of carrying passengers at all speeds". That picture and maybe a letter or affidavit from the manufacturer or dealer would show that the citation was unwarranted.

in my best Jim Carrey....
"So there's a chance?"


Thanks for everyone's responses....Will post up the outcome

 

[HALLETT BOY]

Interesting to see all the different replies to something that seems so obvious
Would have been so much better if the friendly officer just told everyone to move to the front of the boat and have a nice day

Exactly ! It not like the guy was international terrorist , wanted by the FBI or a real bad guy ...

 

[LazyLavey]

Take it easy.... I'm pre-law....

 

[BoatCop]

Here is some free advice worth exactly what is costs.....

Print out 5-341 and highlight with a yellow marker sentence B and Sentence 1. Bring pictures with you from the manufacturer showing that area being used while underway, not while at idle.

You said something to the effect that the court did not have the ticket yet. If you show up and you are not on the docket, make sure you are politely forceful and state you are here per the ticket. The judge is neutral. If someone from the county fumbles around and asks for a continuance because they have a paper mix up try the following:

a) I am here as required by the ticket, the prosecution is not prepared to go forward, having me drive back here from wherever you drove from is a hardship, not of your making and you would like the ticket dismissed with prejudice as you complied and the prosecution is wasting the courts time. No reason to argue about the merits of the ticket, as the prosecution has no one there. You might get lucky.

b) If the prosecution wants to go forward without the officer who wrote the ticket, ask that the ticket be dismissed with prejudice as you can not inquire as to his familiarity with your boat, its construction, the railing, the amount of time he spends patrolling the water and the intended manufacturers design that this area was specifically designed to be used as a protected area while underway and is in compliance with 5-341 subpart B1.

c) If they all do show up, just be a regular person, explain the railing, show the manufacturers pictures of people on it while underway, and point out it was designed to be used while underway in compliance with 5-341 subpart B1. The burden is for them to prove that part was not designed consistent with 5-341 B1 and the manufacturers pictures should make a normal judge get it and dismiss it.

Good luck.

Also note, that the date on the citation is NOT the date of the hearing or trial. It is merely the latest date that you must contact* or appear in court to:

A. Plead guilty, pay fine, case closed. (Guilty with an explanation will just take up time, and has no bearing on what the Judge will do)
B. Plead "No contest", pay fine, case closed.
C. Plead Not Guilty. A date for trial is set, some time (often months) in the future. (You MAY have to post bond or bail at this time)

* Some courts will allow you to do this by phone, call well ahead of the date on the cite to find out.

The Officer and/or prosecutor WILL NOT be present for this hearing (called an initial Appearance). You can do this AT ANY TIME before the date on the cite, during regular business hours.

You can demand all you want at this Initial Appearance, but all you're going to do is piss off the Judge. You can bring a lawyer, but all that will do is cost you his/her fees. Nothing is decided here, except:

a) Formal reading of charges against you
b) Information as to class of crime and penalties if found guilty
c) Your rights (right to counsel, cross examine witnesses, see evidence, etc)
c) Financial information to see if you qualify for public defender (Usually not applicable in these cases, as jail time (although possible) is not a common punishment)
c) Amount (if any) of bail/bond, or if you can continue on O.R./pre-trial release.
d) Your plea (as outlined above)
c) Setting date of trial. This depends on when 1) Court is available 2) Judge is available 3) Prosecutor is available 4) Officer is available. (notice it doesn't say anything about when YOU are available) The court has certain days/dates for certain things. Misdemeanor trials might only be done on certain days of the week or month. YOU have to conform to their schedule, not them to yours. They don't care that you may have to drive 5 hours to get there. You drove 5 hours to get there to commit the crime. You can drive 5 hours to take care of business.

 

[Echo Lodge]

https://www.benningtonmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/23-GSB-11030-9658-Thumbnail.jpg

Dibs!!!

 

[HALLETT BOY]

Also note, that the date on the citation is NOT the date of the hearing or trial. It is merely the latest date that you must contact* or appear in court to:

A. Plead guilty, pay fine, case closed. (Guilty with an explanation will just take up time, and has no bearing on what the Judge will do)
B. Plead "No contest", pay fine, case closed.
C. Plead Not Guilty. A date for trial is set, some time (often months) in the future. (You MAY have to post bond or bail at this time)

* Some courts will allow you to do this by phone, call well ahead of the date on the cite to find out.

The Officer and/or prosecutor WILL NOT be present for this hearing (called an initial Appearance). You can do this AT ANY TIME before the date on the cite, during regular business hours.

You can demand all you want at this Initial Appearance, but all you're going to do is piss off the Judge. You can bring a lawyer, but all that will do is cost you his/her fees. Nothing is decided here, except:

a) Formal reading of charges against you
b) Information as to class of crime and penalties if found guilty
c) Your rights (right to counsel, cross examine witnesses, see evidence, etc)
c) Financial information to see if you qualify for public defender (Usually not applicable in these cases, as jail time (although possible) is not a common punishment)
c) Amount (if any) of bail/bond, or if you can continue on O.R./pre-trial release.
d) Your plea (as outlined above)
c) Setting date of trial. This depends on when 1) Court is available 2) Judge is available 3) Prosecutor is available 4) Officer is available. (notice it doesn't say anything about when YOU are available) The court has certain days/dates for certain things. Misdemeanor trials might only be done on certain days of the week or month. YOU have to conform to their schedule, not them to yours. They don't care that you may have to drive 5 hours to get there. You drove 5 hours to get there to commit the crime. You can drive 5 hours to take care of business.

Wait , in last sentence you said he committed the crime ? Aren’t you supposed to wait AFTER the trial to say that ?