WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

**LAKE MEAD MAN MADE DOOM AND GLOOM ????**

rivermobster

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So, from when this thread was started.....does anyone know how much the lake has dropped???or is it the same..... like I said , there's only 4' of water to get out on the lake from the ramp....and what about the other ramps,... hemming way was closed when I was out last,... what about calville and temple...are there ramps open....

I've always thought that the people than run mead don't like boaters,.... it wouldn't put it past my thought that they might make mead available to only those with a slip...
We are lucky they allow us to boat on the lakes at all...

Let's take Diamond Valley as an example. Created for the same reason all the CO dams were created. AG, human consumption and power. But, no flood control at DV to speak of.

Do they allow body to water contact at that lake? Fuck no. And no performance boating to speak of at all. It was sold as a a recreational area and I followed it's development closely as did a lot of SoCal boaters as well.

In the end, we got fucked. They changed their mind on it being a recreational like. Or most likely, They never intended it to be a recreational lake at all.

Then there is lake Cachuma. Same deal. Hetch Hetchey. Same deal. The water authority gives zero fucks about boaters. Regardless if they have a slip, or not.

In the 1920's , when they were planning out the CO river lakes, there wasn't a whole lot of performance boating going on...


We are nothing but an annoyance to the water authority at best. 😔
 

2FORCEFULL

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We are lucky they allow us to boat on the lakes at all...

Let's take Diamond Valley as an example. Created for the same reason all the CO dams were created. AG, human consumption and power. But, no flood control at DV to speak of.

Do they allow body to water contact at that lake? Fuck no. And no performance boating to speak of at all. It was sold as a a recreational area and I followed it's development closely as did a lot of SoCal boaters as well.

In the end, we got fucked. They changed their mind on it being a recreational like. Or most likely, They never intended it to be a recreational lake at all.

Then there is lake Cachuma. Same deal. Hetch Hetchey. Same deal. The water authority gives zero fucks about boaters. Regardless if they have a slip, or not.

In the 1920's , when they were planning out the CO river lakes, there wasn't a whole lot of performance boating going on...


We are nothing but an annoyance to the water authority at best. 😔
well, it's a good thing the water authority has no control of lake mead... they'd probley dump 150' of water out, and leave all the boat ramps high and dry
 

rivermobster

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well, it's a good thing the water authority has no control of lake mead... they'd probley dump 150' of water out, and leave all the boat ramps high and dry
The Bureau of Reclamation doesn't give a flying fuck about you or me either! 😝
 

Groper

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The river was absolutely ripping above needles yesterday. Clearly they are dumping water out of Mead/Powell
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I noticed a ton of turbulence going through the Gorge almost making mini rapids coming off the sides in a few spots.
I haven't seen that much debris in the water in a long time not since the major Monsoon we had a few years ago that washed a bunch of trees down the river.
 

2FORCEFULL

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Could you explain what did then?

This is what I've always understood what caused that particular situation...

there are a multitude of articles on this subject, you can read them for daays and they all say something differant to cover up what they did....but,... each person has the right and ability to form an opinion....so if you read one,... you form an opinion.... then another, and it's differant.....kinda like the voter fraud.....no one knows what really happened.....it could be either side ly'n.... so you go with your opinion. and whats easy to believe.....


So, here goes.....about 1980 or so..... tree huggers were on the river below powel,.... they found that because of the dam,,,,,, sediment was building kiiling off the cotton wood trees,, they said that because of the dam.... which they don't want any of them... hover dam included... they took away the 100 yr flood which nature provide to clean the sediment out.......so they came up with the plan to hold back abunch of water at powell, which should have been released, and realease it all at once.... well, heavy rain and snow melt added to the already too much water,,,, when they released the water.... it wasn't going out as fast as it was coming in....lake mead being also too high to hold back the water opened the spillways....davis dam did little to stop the waater so it all went down river,,, so what they did,.... was damage the dam at powell... the watter going out of powel caused sediment to stack at the dam...which will destroy the dam.....now.... this was just one of the articals I read... and have nothing to offer but..."I read it on the internet!!!!!" LOL...

all the other ones I read sounded like cover ups...and didn't make sense... Just like now.... the way the waterss dropping makes me think they are up to something.... when the lake was at 1215' and I was told they wanted to drop 150'. guess what the lake would be......1065,... I find it funny the coincidence that we are almost there...sure,... It could be a big lie..... all of it,,and feel good knowing that the gov ask's the people first, and keeps everyone inform on what they are doing informed,but
 
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2FORCEFULL

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I noticed a ton of turbulence going through the Gorge almost making mini rapids coming off the sides in a few spots.
I haven't seen that much debris in the water in a long time not since the major Monsoon we had a few years ago that washed a bunch of trees down the river.
post like yours further lead me to believe they are up to something, the day I was on the water there havasu was near full... but on the other side of the dam they say no water is causing the ramp problems..... I say/ think,... mead will settle around 1050'
 

rivermobster

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@2FORCEFULL

At that time, I don't think the tree huggers had any authority over the Bureau of Reclamation whatsoever.

The strongest arm of the tree hugger movement, The Center for Biological Diversity, hadn't even been formed at that point. And even when they were in their glory, the still didn't have that kind of pull.

I was in Parker, well, on the strip anyway. Standing on the Ca side, I actually saw the water spilling from the partially opened floodgates.

The whole thing was HUGE news at the time, and their were not a whole lot of different stories, back then.

The New York times article (from back then) documents the event very well.

I'm sure the CBD and other tree hugger organizations would love to re-write history and claim they had a part in it, but there is no chance that actually happened.

Now with all that being said...

This is a long Great read about what went down back then, and there are lots of links to other articles that support the original article.

The flood in 1983 was well documented event. And because of that event, the lake levels will never Ever come close to full pool again.

 

rivermobster

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No arguments. Just talking. I seriously love talking about this shit! LoL

I love the river and everything about it. It's super interesting to me all the different aspects of the mechanics behind it all.

I love learning new stuff about it, just as much as I love just enjoying the place.

It's been a lifetime obsession for me on all counts. 🤷‍♂️
 

2FORCEFULL

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No arguments. Just talking. I seriously love talking about this shit! LoL

I love the river and everything about it. It's super interesting to me all the different aspects of the mechanics behind it all.

I love learning new stuff about it, just as much as I love just enjoying the place.

It's been a lifetime obsession for me on all counts. 🤷‍♂️
I'm with you... I don't see a good discussion as argument..... for what it's worth,... no one knows what really happened.... they just know what they are told, and what they read..... It would be nice to have a gov. a that spoke the truth and told what happens as fact... gov speaks with forked tongue
 

rivermobster

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I'm with you... I don't see a good discussion as argument..... for what it's worth,... no one knows what really happened.... they just know what they are told, and what they read..... It would be nice to have a gov. a that spoke the truth and told what happens as fact... gov speaks with forked tongue
I'm gonna say it's the media that seldom gets Any story correct. But the .gov spin doctors jack it up too.

I came across this site doing home work. It's pretty cool. Lots of good reading to be had...

 

Ziggy

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No arguments. Just talking. I seriously love talking about this shit! LoL

I love the river and everything about it. It's super interesting to me all the different aspects of the mechanics behind it all.

I love learning new stuff about it, just as much as I love just enjoying the place.

It's been a lifetime obsession for me on all counts. 🤷‍♂️
I've learned some new stuff too, like the Adams tunnel eastward.
The insinuated "you don't shit" posts are the unproductive ones.
 

Fastdadtsmith

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lake was at 1215' and I was told they wanted to drop 150'. guess what the lake would be......1165,...
[/QUOTE]
@2FORCEFULL not sure it matters for this discussion, but you'd better check your math.....
 

Flying_Lavey

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How can full pool change if the spillways are are at the same elevation???
Operational full pool. In other words the operation of the lake/dam are at an elevation that is below the spillway.

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lbhsbz

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The river was absolutely ripping above needles yesterday. Clearly they are dumping water out of Mead/Powell


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We were out at Big River over the weekend...got there Thursday. The water is Always low in the AM...with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions that I’ve seen over 30+ years of going there. This weekend the water didn’t drop. Ag requirements should have decreased...I read somewhere about the Indians get fed. Money to NOT farm...why is so much water getting dumped?
 

mesquito_creek

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Turns out that once again, the only person who matters is the B.O.R. and specifically Mike Bernardo.... Also turns out he is hiding from everyone yet fully disclosing his operational plan on the front page of USA Today.

"Mike Bernardo of the federal Bureau of Reclamation leads a team of engineers and hydrologists who plan water releases from Hoover Dam, as well as Davis and Parker dams downstream, sending flows that travel through pipelines and canals to Phoenix, Los Angeles and farmlands in the U.S. and Mexico that produce crops such as hay, cotton, grapes and lettuce."

 

AZagpilot

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I’ve been on the river since the 70’s and lived here (across and down a little from Bigbore’s place) for the last 12. With the exception of the flooding flow in the 80’s I have never seen such consistently high flows as we have been experiencing this spring. One would think that with the poor snowpack in the Rockies, all the farmland that has been fallowed over the last two years for conservation, and all the media pumping up the drought narrative it would be less. Nobody I talk to, including large corporate farm managers and contractors who deal with B O R on a daily basis know anything about it. 🧐
 

Christopher Lucero

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another thought occurs.
first, filling the reservoirs is a volition...we just need to decide to do it.
second
The sedimentary basin near Pearce Ferry could be an excellent place for DOI to permit for mining extraction...we have been collecting the canyon sediment there for almost 50 years and there is bound to be some gold, rare earths, etc in that muck. keep the initiative temporary/exploratory, and utilize the interests of stakeholders before refilling and waiting another 50 years.

"In muck there's brass"

I have a funny story about one adventure we took in that basin...we regularly used to travel upriver from our camp at Sandy Point through the basin to get into Grand Canyon west.

One time, we are going upriver, through the basin, and cappy is navigating the brown 'water'.

My son says "Looks really shallow dad" and I say, "I think we are OK"....minutes later the motor bogs down, slows, we stop in aqueous clay. I step out and sink into a suspension of clay and water up to my crotch. trim the motor all the way up and we five are sort of floating on this emulsion of silt and water. (I imagine that this may have took the a bit of the polish/finish off the boat bottom. or maybe particles were fine enough that they polished it even better, IDK)

I eventually push the boat back to deeper waters, trim down, restart, and we get back on our way into the canyon.

I saw a post here that said "The difference between ordeal and adventure is attitude"
 

COCA COLA COWBOY

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You know this is a double edged sword...you shut off the water to California and more people will leave Kommifornia and move to other states. Those are not the people you want moving to your state. I think it would be best to store the water for Kommifornia so a crazy liberal doesn't move next to you.
 

OC Mike

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I’ve been on the river since the 70’s and lived here (across and down a little from Bigbore’s place) for the last 12. With the exception of the flooding flow in the 80’s I have never seen such consistently high flows as we have been experiencing this spring. One would think that with the poor snowpack in the Rockies, all the farmland that has been fallowed over the last two years for conservation, and all the media pumping up the drought narrative it would be less. Nobody I talk to, including large corporate farm managers and contractors who deal with B O R on a daily basis know anything about it. 🧐
So we are in record drought, record lake lows, and inordinate down river flow.
WTF!!!
 

Christopher Lucero

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think about where anything downriver goes...if it doesn't make it to the Gulf of California, it either evaporates or goes to a canal or soaks into the ground aquifer.
 

Racey

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So, here goes.....about 1980 or so..... tree huggers were on the river below powel,.... they found that because of the dam,,,,,, sediment was building kiiling off the cotton wood trees,, they said that because of the dam.... which they don't want any of them... hover dam included... they took away the 100 yr flood which nature provide to clean the sediment out.......so they came up with the plan to hold back abunch of water at powell, which should have been released, and realease it all at once.... well, heavy rain and snow melt added to the already too much water,,,, when they released the water.... it wasn't going out as fast as it was coming in....lake mead being also too high to hold back the water opened the spillways....davis dam did little to stop the waater so it all went down river,,, so what they did,.... was damage the dam at powell... the watter going out of powel caused sediment to stack at the dam...which will destroy the dam.....now.... this was just one of the articals I read... and have nothing to offer but..."I read it on the internet!!!!!" LOL...
Steve, your timeline is a little incorrect here.

the spillway problem in 1983 was the very first time the lake broke "full pool" ever, they had never used the spillways before that, What they found was that the intense cavitation was eroding the concrete of the spilway, it was essentially a design flaw that nobody could have predicted. The water hammered the concrete out of the bottom of the spillway tunnel. This event had nothing to do with recreating the "100 year flood" for conservation reasons. They had a very heavy winter and a fast warm wet spring that essentially "pressure washed" the snow down into the river way faster than anticipated to a lake that was already being drawn up to test the spillways (which had never been tested).


The first "High Flow Experiment" to recreate the 100 year flood was more than 10 years later in 1996, followed by another in 2004, 2008, and 2018.
 

Christopher Lucero

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Check this shit out!

THANKS! the video does not do it justice though. I could swear that the spillway sheet going over the wall was 5 feet deep when I was there the tube was like 40% full by volume ...it created a breeze as it sucked air into it. there was no soaking on the roadway because it sucked the mist in. damned awesome to experience.
 

rivermobster

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Steve, your timeline is a little incorrect here.

the spillway problem in 1983 was the very first time the lake broke "full pool" ever, they had never used the spillways before that, What they found was that the intense cavitation was eroding the concrete of the spilway, it was essentially a design flaw that nobody could have predicted. The water hammered the concrete out of the bottom of the spillway tunnel. This event had nothing to do with recreating the "100 year flood" for conservation reasons. They had a very heavy winter and a fast warm wet spring that essentially "pressure washed" the snow down into the river way faster than anticipated to a lake that was already being drawn up to test the spillways (which had never been tested).


The first "High Flow Experiment" to recreate the 100 year flood was more than 10 years later in 1996, followed by another in 2004, 2008, and 2018.
And according to that USA today article just posted, they are doing it again right now.

This explains the current high flow rates the river is experiencing. Mexico wants it's water we store for it. They have the rights to it.

Interesting quote from the article...

Scientific analyses in the 1920s found the Colorado River would be in deficit if dams and canals were built to meet the anticipated demand, Kuhn and Fleck wrote. The scientists’ warnings were ignored, and that “set in motion decades of decisions that would end in the overuse seen today.”
 

Racey

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And according to that USA today article just posted, they are doing it again right now.

This explains the current high flow rates the river is experiencing. Mexico wants it's water we store for it. They have the rights to it.

Interesting quote from the article...

Scientific analyses in the 1920s found the Colorado River would be in deficit if dams and canals were built to meet the anticipated demand, Kuhn and Fleck wrote. The scientists’ warnings were ignored, and that “set in motion decades of decisions that would end in the overuse seen today.”
“there are more water rights than there is water.” that is the key statement

Without the dams and canals there would be no water many years, and severe floods destroying everything others and wasting the water out into the Gulf of California
 

rivermobster

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You know this is a double edged sword...you shut off the water to California and more people will leave Kommifornia and move to other states. Those are not the people you want moving to your state. I think it would be best to store the water for Kommifornia so a crazy liberal doesn't move next to you.
CA will be the last state to have their water allocation reduced when the lake levels get seriously low. AZ will actually be the first state to receive reductions. ;)

So it's not only the weather that's good in CA! Plus we have Oceans and beaches and shit like that...

CA is closed. Buh bye! 😁
 

liv4riv

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I think what he's trying to say is...

They will never let the water level reach the spillways again?

Remember when Parker got flooded cause the miscalculated the snow melt? Im pretty sure they don't want that Ever happening again!

Lesson learned.
The
Bureau of Reclamation did not miss calculate the snow melt in 1983 the dam at lake Powel had a very bad issue and they were dumping water to fix the dam. Look it up.

Also they did not flood the Parker strip as they never released water to go beyond the high water mark.

If someone decides to build below the high water mark just to be closer to where the water normally runs they must accept the possibility that their property will go down the river.

The
Bureau of Reclamation does not plan on ever letting Mead go over 60% full and Powel has to run within a percentage of Mead.
 

rivermobster

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“there are more water rights than there is water.” that is the key statement

Without the dams and canals there would be no water many years, and severe floods destroying everything others and wasting the water out into the Gulf of California
Yes sir. 100% correct. If everyone took the water they were entitled to, at the same time, our favorite hobby would be long gone.

They knew this as early as 1920. That's the interesting thing to me.

Sadly, not a huge shocker though...

Water management is Everything.
 

hallett21

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The
Bureau of Reclamation did not miss calculate the snow melt in 1983 the dam at lake Powel had a very bad issue and they were dumping water to fix the dam. Look it up.

Also they did not flood the Parker strip as they never released water to go beyond the high water mark.

If someone decides to build below the high water mark just to be closer to where the water normally runs they must accept the possibility that their property will go down the river.

The
Bureau of Reclamation does not plan on ever letting Mead go over 60% full and Powel has to run within a percentage of Mead.
Parker dam was wide open. That has to be well over the high water mark?


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liv4riv

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Parker dam was wide open. That has to be well over the high water mark?


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never went over the high water mark that is why no lawsuits ever went anywhere
 

Havasu Surfer

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las vegas has stopped the run off of mountain water with retention basins ... so it all now goes back to under groud water storage..... the water authority have been for years conserving water.... those who live here know how much money they gave out to remove lawns.... as for me....I'm on a deep, deep well, so I don't get water from mead..... when I run out of water....the world will be dry.... but ... I did take the check and removed all my lawn... and same with every home I built in havasu.... no sprinklers or pools... sure, my wife wants a pool in havasu.... but, I'm not gonna waist that much water to swim a couple times a year when the lake is just 2 miles away.....

View attachment 1009402 View attachment 1009403 View attachment 1009404 View attachment 1009405 View attachment 1009406 View attachment 1009407 View attachment 1009408 View attachment 1009409
Sorry to Jack the thread. Digging the metal hawk art. Where did you get it?


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OC Mike

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The
Bureau of Reclamation did not miss calculate the snow melt in 1983 the dam at lake Powel had a very bad issue and they were dumping water to fix the dam. Look it up.

Also they did not flood the Parker strip as they never released water to go beyond the high water mark.

If someone decides to build below the high water mark just to be closer to where the water normally runs they must accept the possibility that their property will go down the river.

The
Bureau of Reclamation does not plan on ever letting Mead go over 60% full and Powel has to run within a percentage of Mead.

Any idea what the elevation is at 60%.
 

rivermobster

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Parker dam was wide open. That has to be well over the high water mark?


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It wasn't wide open, far from it. Here are some very cool pics from what happened I found online.

I'm sure @Skyskier has lots of pics he took. I sure wish I would have had the forethought to take some myself, but we were more concerned about not being able to go boating at the time! lol

 

rivermobster

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Came across this as well. Definitely worth a watch...

 

grumpy88

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So what were saying is, as long as farmers and Mexico is getting water, parker will always be a place to boat?
I look at it like this . When we are off roading in the middle of the desert and come across the ruins of old buildings and wonder what the fuck , why out here ? I hope im no longer alive when people say that about the parker strip !
 

rrrr

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The USA Today article above correctly links Colorado River basin water distribution and the Seven States Compact.

Eighty-six years after its completion in 1935, the infrastructure at Hoover Dam continues doing what it was designed to do: holding water and sending it coursing through intake tunnels, spinning turbines and generating electricity. The rules for managing the river and dividing up its water – which were laid down nearly a century ago in the 1922 Colorado River Compact and repeatedly tweaked – face the greatest strains since the dam was built.

There is no entity 'stealing' water. Every acre foot of water that flows into Lake Powell and discharged from Lake Mead belongs to someone downstream. There are no 'plans' to lower Lake Mead. The SNWA has no say in the management of lake levels.

Water that's diverted to the eastern slope by the Adams Tunnel is also governed by the 1922 Compact.

The tunnel is capable of carrying a water flowrate of 550 cubic feet per second (16 m3/s). An average annual total of 213,000 acre-feet (0.263 km3) of water is transported through the tunnel each year. The tunnel can transport as much as 1,100 acre-feet (1,400,000 m3) in one day. The water transferred through the tunnel is considered part of Colorado's Colorado River water allocation of 3,880,000 acre-feet (4.79 km3) per year as agreed to in the Colorado River Compact.
 

hallett21

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rivermobster

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Lol how much more open do those doors open?


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I'm gonna guess all the way? When you're driving across the dam, you can see the massive chains that can pull those flood gates up. You can see in this pic, the open area above each gate? I would guess they can pull the actual gate, all the way up into the open area, so you wouldn't be able to see the lake through the upper part of the dam structure anymore. I don't really know for sure, but I'd guess they were barely open at the time of the flood.

2021-06-07.jpg
 

2FORCEFULL

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lake was at 1215' and I was told they wanted to drop 150'. guess what the lake would be......1165,...
@2FORCEFULL not sure it matters for this discussion, but you'd better check your math.....
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thanks buddy, I thought I fixed that the other day, guess I forgot...I'm at the age where I walk out to the garage, and to my self I say, what the fuck did I come out here for and have to stand there and try to remember
 

2FORCEFULL

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whats cool about this thread is you can go see for yourself that they are dumping the water out again,... and not have to hear it from ol 2FF...

so a guy is in prison , gets put in a solitary and has no windows, he gets fed once a day, that the only person he see's each day, one day, he asked the guard,.. whats the weather like,..guard says it's raining cats and dogs, worst rain storm ever... all the streets are flooded...... the next day, he gets a differant guard, he says to,... is it still raining, are the streets still flooded??... guard say to him,... what are you talking about, we're in the worst drought ever, it hasn't rained all year.....which guard does the prisoner believe????

for me, a guy told me they were gonna dump 150' ft of water out and never let the water get to the level it was at again,... and at the same time a guy told me the water got used up, and by 2020 the lake would be dry...only differance between me and the prisoner is I could go look, at the same time the water was droping at mead..... you couldn't park in the channel cause the water was up the wall... same as now....... they're dumping water out of mead, and you can see for your self the water level going down river.... bet if you go to mexico and there is raging water all the way to the ocean,,, so, to all I say, believe what you want....
 

2FORCEFULL

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Steve, your timeline is a little incorrect here.

the spillway problem in 1983 was the very first time the lake broke "full pool" ever, they had never used the spillways before that, What they found was that the intense cavitation was eroding the concrete of the spilway, it was essentially a design flaw that nobody could have predicted. The water hammered the concrete out of the bottom of the spillway tunnel. This event had nothing to do with recreating the "100 year flood" for conservation reasons. They had a very heavy winter and a fast warm wet spring that essentially "pressure washed" the snow down into the river way faster than anticipated to a lake that was already being drawn up to test the spillways (which had never been tested).


The first "High Flow Experiment" to recreate the 100 year flood was more than 10 years later in 1996, followed by another in 2004, 2008, and 2018.
and how would you know???? they started holding back the water before 1983 , 1983 was when they figure out they fucked up,.... or do you think that it all happened the same day...I'm a little different than you,... I don't believe everything some one tells me.... and I don't follow you around and try to prove what you post as false... I don't think I know it all about ever subject,,, what I said, I said it was from what some one told me... I guess you always know more cause you googled it and read it...
 

Ziggy

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think about where anything downriver goes...if it doesn't make it to the Gulf of California, it either evaporates or goes to a canal or soaks into the ground aquifer.
Actually, it ends up in Mexico at the Morelos dam and gets dispersed from there. As far as I'm aware there is a certain amount of water that is mandated to cross the border.
I know Mead did a heavy release some 10 or so years ago and eventually it did reach the gulf but literally was just a trickle(was a tv show on it). There was a lot of controversy about the water released however it was water supposedly owned by Mexico being stored in Mead.
 
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