WELCOME TO RIVER DAVES PLACE

**LAKE MEAD MAN MADE DOOM AND GLOOM ????**

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
Because apparently that isn't enough since people are told they can only shower so many times a week and should limit their laundry, which no one is doing obviously.


https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/06/08/new-california-water-law-restrictions-shower-laundry/

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-07-10/can-california-dramatically-cut-water-use-again
it's more that we waist water,... shower water and laundry water should go into a tank , that water should be used to flush toilets... with a couple ounces of wash wax you can wash a car...you never know what you have till it's gone..... toilet paper for instance
 

hallett21

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Messages
10,574
Reaction score
8,167
it's more that we waist water,... shower water and laundry water should go into a tank , that water should be used to flush toilets... with a couple ounces of wash wax you can wash a car...you never know what you have till it's gone..... toilet paper for instance
I know of some people who have Plumbed grey water and black water lines in their homes. Holding tanks for grey that get used for agriculture etc. Black goes to septic/sewer.

Problem is that you have to use hippie soaps etc lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
Why dont they close the border and stop increasing housing ?
there idea is to have as many homeless as they can get....... when I was a kid, I seen a bum once... but he was gone the next day....but that was in the 50's
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
I know of some people who have Plumbed grey water and black water lines in their homes. Holding tanks for grey that get used for agriculture etc. Black goes to septic/sewer.

Problem is that you have to use hippie soaps etc lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
you're way better off not using soap on your skin,,,,,
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
The Environmental Protection Agency reports that the typical American household uses over 300 gallons of water per day. To some people, that amount might not seem like a lot, but when you consider that there are over 130 million households in America, the combined usage is massive!
 

hallett21

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Messages
10,574
Reaction score
8,167
you're way better off not using soap on your skin,,,,,
Another one I wanted to do that everyone told me I was stupid for.

When we put our lawns in. I wanted to install the drip line (with holes every 1/2” or so). Usually its brown not black. I figured I would make a “grid” mainly long runs that Tee’d together every 12” or so.

The idea being soak the soil and avoid evaporation. Everyone told me I was an idiot and I regret it every day.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Loo Dog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
478
Reaction score
881
The Environmental Protection Agency reports that the typical American household uses over 300 gallons of water per day. To some people, that amount might not seem like a lot, but when you consider that there are over 130 million households in America, the combined usage is massive!
There’s NO way that figure is accurate. Why would the EPA of all people or agencies grossly over exaggerate “typical” household daily usage? Straight up fear mongering.
 

rivermobster

Club Banned
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
42,141
Reaction score
25,170
Exactly! Explosive China Buffet induced diarrhea aside, I’m not buying that figure.
It has to be a figure that takes in doing laundry, swimming pools, watering lawns, washing cars and all that other stuff, and averaging it out over maybe a year or so?

It's hard to fathom for sure. 😱
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
here's a compairison, our rental house has a couple living there.... they are gone every day light to dark.... there is no irrigation out side... they never wash cars and such at home.. no swamp coolers, and no pool... they used 2154 gallons so about 70 gallons a day.. on our home in havasu, only there few days a month, no out side water usage.. we used 322 gals....cost for water usage was $0.56, renters...$3.89 there's also a base charge of $5.16 so @ $0.50 per 100 gals, who the fuc, out in the middle of the desert, next to a lake , on the Colorado river is gonna worry about saving water... again, just like toilet paper.... when it's gone... no mater the cost,.... it gonna hurt... people waisting water constantly is whats gonna cause the Gov to step in and tax the fuc out of water and toilet paper... that what they already did in salt lake.... they put a 400% sur charge on their water bills... so where does the money go????? right to politicians pockets,.... whats left over they use to do studies to find more was to tax the fuc out of what people do and use every day... not only do they tax the fuc out of your earnings,...but also out of every dime you spend,... and those that are smart enough to invest,.. they tax that earning even more... for get water.... try and figure the tax amount that they get for the money that goes through your hands each day,.. there's more people living off the tax you pay , then there is people working and paying the tax...
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
just like drug dealers and cash workers.... they'll never put a stop to either.... Drug dealers spend the fuc out of money and pay out a shit load in sales tax and fines...
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
so how to tell when the gov. is fuc'n you.... just look for the title "AGENCY "
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
the hidden fees,..... next time I sell something,... I'll probley go to jail for battery charges.... cause right after they pay me,... I'm gonna demand 900 bucks for "DOC" fees.... or they don't get the signed title.... I'll keep every one post' on the results...
 

Racey

Maxwell Smart-Ass
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
17,221
Reaction score
27,534
why doesn't cal use salt water for pools and to flush toilets???
Why would they if they are getting all the water they need right now...

Also this isn't a toilet flushing or pool problem it's agriculture. CA could make everyone rip their pools out, it wouldn't change squat as far as the lake levels are concerned.

The Environmental Protection Agency reports that the typical American household uses over 300 gallons of water per day. To some people, that amount might not seem like a lot, but when you consider that there are over 130 million households in America, the combined usage is massive!
Of that 300 gallons probably 250 are fully reclaimed in the sewer system. This is exactly how Vegas makes its water credits work with such a small amount of the allocation.

Now look at how much water a single head of lettuce takes, a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, or a pound of chicken, etc, it will blow your mind when you add up how much water it takes to make the food to feed you for a day, it's hundreds and hundreds of gallons per person, all of which is not reclaimed into the water system.
 
Last edited:

Waffles

Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,342
Reaction score
9,322
also out in that area of az, people that have lived there for years are having their wells dry up,... the farmers keep sucking the water table down with no stop in sight.... something has to happen,... one thing is AZ is gonna loose 40% of their water rights from the river... I bet you see a stop to lawns and pools soon to come... havasu has a 2 meter system,... house water is more than irrigation water right now, because irrigation water returns to the ground..... not positive on pool water if it can be filled with irrigation water though....some one who knows can chime in,... I've been in a constant battle with my wife about putting a pool at our new home, she said either you put the pool in or I will.... I said the day I see a permit for a pool...... the house goes up for sale...she said,... you sell everyting anyways , so why blame it on the pool....
No you cant use reclaimed water to fill your pool. Reclaimed or recycled water generally comes from wastewater treatment plants and contain contaminates(ie nitrates, phosphates, etc usually found in fertilizers) that wouldnt meet the EPA primary drinking water standards. Not only that, but youd be constantly chasing algae blooms because of the elevated levels of contaminates. And no, adding a ridiculous amount of chlorine wont decontaminate it. Your city should have a Consumer Confidence Report published on their website that outlines the water quality of said city.

Ex:

 

Waffles

Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,342
Reaction score
9,322
Last edited:

Waffles

Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,342
Reaction score
9,322

mesquito_creek

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
2,266
Reaction score
2,454
I used 5,000 at my primary and 18,000 on my second home (for compaction on my shop foundation). That's 383 gallon per person!.. The 5K in AZ cost me $73.92 and the 18K in UT cost $44... What do I win?
 

angiebaby

Love is my religion
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
2,544
Reaction score
347
it's more that we waist water,... shower water and laundry water should go into a tank , that water should be used to flush toilets... with a couple ounces of wash wax you can wash a car...you never know what you have till it's gone..... toilet paper for instance
We used to water the trees with our laundry water at the ranch, but it was illegal. I think wasting water is definitely an issue, but I disagree that it's the main issue. I think the main issue is that the population of the region cannot handle the amount of water available. It's the desert. Yet they continue to build houses and people keep moving there. It's the DESERT.

As for the toilet paper, I never was even close to running out ;) In fact, our daughter and SIL moved in March of 2020 across state lines and I mailed her about 30 rolls because she couldn't find any for her new home. There is such a lack of preparation in this country. The expectation that "someone else" will provide me with water is a dangerous thing, IMO.
 
Last edited:

bentprops

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
268
Reaction score
107
Actually, it ends up in Mexico at the Morelos dam and gets dispersed from there. As far as I'm aware there is a certain amount of water that is mandated to cross the border.
I know Mead did a heavy release some 10 or so years ago and eventually it did reach the gulf but literally was just a trickle(was a tv show on it). There was a lot of controversy about the water released however it was water supposedly owned by Mexico being stored in Mead.
We should just send it to Mexico asap instead of storing it. if we owe them 100 gals and 10% evaporates on us while we hold it we still owe them 100 gal.
 

bentprops

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
268
Reaction score
107
You ever seen how much river makes it to the sea of cortez?


They have only done it a couple times since 2014. It aint enough to even put a dent in the lake here
Did you notice all the tractor work done in this video? All most like they expected it.
 

bentprops

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
268
Reaction score
107
I know of some people who have Plumbed grey water and black water lines in their homes. Holding tanks for grey that get used for agriculture etc. Black goes to septic/sewer.

Problem is that you have to use hippie soaps etc lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The wifey took us down this route and i can honestly say im so glad.

I used to have really bad allergies. They are completely gone. I now only have to use deodorant once a week. And no I don’t smell. Seems the old spice was killing my natural bacterial fighting cells. Its the strangest thing. Used to be if i forgot to put it on i was stinking real bad before noon.
 

riverroyal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
10,401
Reaction score
10,985
Did you notice all the tractor work done in this video? All most like they expected it.
I said this last month..the river is flowing to the sea of cortez again. Its planned, been a plan. There is a area of the desert down there that is dying.
It needs water and somehow its getting it.
How much this effects the level of mead im not sure. But it was tree huggers that made it happen.
At a time of severe drought they pulled the drain plug on mead.
I dont know if the water has made it yet the sea. Unreal amount of desert to fill up before
 

bentprops

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
268
Reaction score
107
I have a lot invested here and depend on the local water supply for my business, but Ill be honest with you im kinda glad to see this. I know a lot about farming and ranching and 98% of farms and ranches are being done wrong and wasting a lot of water. They can reduce approx. 80% with better profitability, how ever it takes more brain power and management skills. They farm the lazy way and its costing all of us.

Whats more important? Water or up to 10% ethanol in our fuel? Water so stop sucking our aquifers dry to irrigate the dam corn.
 

rivermobster

Club Banned
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
42,141
Reaction score
25,170
I have a lot invested here and depend on the local water supply for my business, but Ill be honest with you im kinda glad to see this. I know a lot about farming and ranching and 98% of farms and ranches are being done wrong and wasting a lot of water. They can reduce approx. 80% with better profitability, how ever it takes more brain power and management skills. They farm the lazy way and its costing all of us.

Whats more important? Water or up to 10% ethanol in our fuel? Water so stop sucking our aquifers dry to irrigate the dam corn.
I'd sure like to know more about what you do...
 

rrrr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
18,593
After nine pages of speculation, misinformation, wild ass guesses, and a bunch of really dumb comments, I am posting up what is really happening with the Colorado River Basin, Lake Powell, Lake Mead, and where the water goes. If it's not in this document, it's not happening.

While it might be impossible for some to believe, there aren't any conspiracies. There aren't tree huggers, there aren't people in pickups on boat ramps, and there aren't any secret agreements with Mexico. No one has drained water from Lake Mead as a result of secret negotiations between anyone else. No one has been kidnapped or murdered.

It's all laid out by legally binding agreements, and it is done years in advance.

The italicized text below is a cover letter sent to the governor of Colorado. It's the first two pages of the thirty nine page 2021 Annual Operating Plan for the Colorado River Basin, produced by the Bureau of Reclamation. Duplicate copies were sent to the governors of the other six states bound by the agreement; Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and California.

The Operating Plan was also made available to other stakeholders; representatives from Mexico; the Upper Colorado River Commission; Native American Tribes; appropriate Federal agencies; representatives of the academic and scientific communities, environmental organizations, and recreation industry; water delivery contractors; contractors for the purchase of Federal power; others interested in Colorado River operations; and the general public, through the Colorado River Management Work Group

Shut up and read this cover letter introduction, then click on the link below and read the other thirty seven pages. Educate yourself. I know this is a lot to ask of those with short attention spans, especially individuals that like to type thread titles with all capital letters.


The Honorable Jared Polis Governor of Colorado
Denver, Colorado 80203

Dear Governor Polis:

Enclosed is the Annual Operating Plan (AOP) for Colorado River System Reservoirs for 2021. The AOP contains the projected plan of operation of Colorado River reservoirs for 2021 based on the most probable runoff conditions. The plan of operation reflects the use of the reservoirs for all purposes consistent with the Criteria for Coordinated Long-Range Operation of Colorado River Reservoirs Pursuant to the Colorado River Basin Project Act of September 30, 1968.

The 2021 AOP incorporates the Colorado River Interim Guidelines for Lower Basin Shortages and the Coordinated Operations for Lake Powell and Lake Mead (2007 Interim Guidelines), the Lower Basin Drought Contingency Plan Agreement (LB DCP Agreement), and Minute No. 323 of the United States and Mexican Sections of the International Boundary and Water Commission (IBWC). The AOP was prepared by the Bureau of Reclamation in consultation with representatives of the Governors of the seven Colorado River Basin States; representatives from Mexico; the Upper Colorado River Commission; Native American Tribes; appropriate Federal agencies; representatives of the academic and scientific communities, environmental organizations, and recreation industry; water delivery contractors; contractors for the purchase of Federal power; others interested in Colorado River operations; and the general public, through the Colorado River Management Work Group (Work Group).

The Work Group held meetings on June 1, 2020, July 23, 2020, and September 3, 2020. The water year 2021 release from Lake Powell is projected to be 9.00 million acre-feet (maf) (11,100 million cubic meters [mcm]). Given the hydrologic variability of the Colorado River System and based on actual 2020 water year operations, the projected water year release from Lake Powell in 2021 is likely to be in the range of 8.23 maf (10,150 mcm) to 9.00 maf (11,100 mcm) or greater. Water deliveries in the Lower Basin during the calendar year 2021 will be limited to 7.5 maf (9,250 mcm) plus or minus any credits for Intentionally Created Surplus (ICS). The 2007 Interim Guidelines adopted the ICS mechanism that, among other things, encourages the efficient use and management of Colorado River water in the Lower Basin. The ICS may be created and delivered in 2021 pursuant to the 2007 Interim Guidelines, the LB DCP Agreement, and appropriate forbearance and delivery agreements. The LB DCP Agreement will also govern the operation of Lake Mead for calendar year 2021. Consistent with sections III.B.1.a and III.B.2.a of exhibit 1 to the LB DCP Agreement, DCP contributions will be required by Arizona and Nevada, respectively, in calendar year 2021.

The LB DCP Agreement will also govern the operation of Lake Mead for calendar year 2021. Consistent with sections III.B.1.a and III.B.2.a of exhibit 1 to the LB DCP Agreement, DCP contributions will be required by Arizona and Nevada, respectively, in calendar year 2021. In addition to Lower Basin deliveries, a volume of 1.500 maf (1,850 mcm) of water will be scheduled for delivery to Mexico during the calendar year 2021 in accordance with article 15 of the 1944 United States-Mexico Water Treaty and Minutes No. 242 and 322 of the IBWC. The volume delivered will be adjusted for water savings contributions as required under section IV of IBWC Minute No. 323.

In accordance with IBWC Minute No. 323, Mexico may create water for, or take delivery of water from, Mexico’s Water Reserve pursuant to section V of IBWC Minute No. 323. Inflow to Lake Powell has been below average in 16 of the past 21 years (2000 through 2020). Accordingly, all water users in the Colorado River Basin are encouraged to prudently manage the use of available supplies. The Department of the Interior continues to closely monitor water supply conditions in the Colorado River Basin and looks forward to continuing to work with your representatives and other interested parties regarding the management of this vital river system.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Last edited:

jeepdog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
1,250
Reaction score
1,974
Sounds like a lot of blah blah stroke stroke
 

TCHB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
9,148
Reaction score
5,483
why doesn't cal use salt water for pools and to flush toilets???
Salt water is very tough to deal with at the treatment facilities. It would just take higher water bills to cover the cost to byuild new treatment facilities. Water softeners are a Big issue for treatment plants.
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
rrrr is for some unknown reason, acting like a complete douche here. He's normally not like that. Maybe too much to drink?

He's not posting anything that hasn't already been said. He's not bringing anything new to this thread. 😕
LOL, I've had him on ignore for 10 years,,he's like the neighbors dog...BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK.................................
 

rivermobster

Club Banned
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
42,141
Reaction score
25,170
Filling Powell back up...

 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
Federal authorities are expected to declare a water shortage for Lake Mead Monday, which would trim Nevada’s allocation of water in 2022.

A shortage gets triggered if the lake is expected to sit below 1,075 feet on January 1, 2022. As of Wednesday morning, the lake sits at 1,067.93 feet.

The shortage has been anticipated as Lake Mead’s water level continues to drop.

What's a shortage?

“Well, the shortage is a legal term, and what it means is you're not allowed to divert your entire legal allocation from the river in that year,” says John Entsminger, the general manager of the Southern Nevada Water Authority, the top water guy in the city.

RELATED | Lake Mead attracts 3rd most annual car and RV campers in the nation

Our allocation from Lake Mead, fed by the Colorado River, is 300,000 acre-feet a year, enough to supply 90% of the valley’s water. The remaining 10% comes from groundwater sources. What the shortage will mean is Nevada's allotment will get cut from 300,000 to 279,000 acre-feet for 2022.

“But for context sake last year we used 255,000 acre-feet, so that delta between 255 and 279 is still water that we will bank in Lake Mead,” Entsminger says. In other words, you won't feel the cutback, but our valley will have less water in its Lake Mead "savings account."

The Colorado River and Lake Mead get fed by the runoff from the Rockies. The problem is the Rockies have been dry too. The runoff to Lake Powell, where the water goes first, is 26% of normal. Less to Lake Powell means less for Lake Mead.

“We had dry soil moisture coming into the snowpack season, so when that snow melts, it has to fill up the dry soils. Those dry soils take the majority of the snowmelt, and then you see less water in the actual streamflow,” Ashley Nielson, senior hydrologist at the Colorado Basin River Forecast Center, told me last month.

And so Lake Mead continues to drop. For the water authority, that makes conservation even more important.

“I do think the effects of climate change on the snowpack on the Rocky
 

pcrussell50

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
167
Reaction score
108
You can Gray water all you want, and probably should. But The fact still remains that it has been half a century since CA built its last storage and distribution capability. And it’s population has nearly tripled. And the southwest in general (adding in Vegas and Phoenix) has quintupled. Failing to keep your infrastructure in line with your population growth is a a failure of governance and a criminal misuse of tax monies.

you think we have it bad? In the PNW they have just approved a program to start tearing down their dams. While that doesn’t affect us much directly, the original bureau of reclamation and Central Valley water authority plan for southern cal was to send excess water from the flood prone farmlands of southern and central Oregon down to SoCal. They got as far as phase 1 or three planned phases when jerry brown scrapped the rest of it back in 1970 because he thought by canceling the infrastructure it would slow down the growth in CA. Anyway, with the PNW tearing down it’s dams, it would make it even harder to re instate and finish building the original phase 2 and phase 3 projects from bureau reclamation and Central Valley authority.

not sure how this is going to play out but you can’t water 60M people with infrastructure built for 20M. Even with gray water.

-Peter
 

rivermobster

Club Banned
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
42,141
Reaction score
25,170
You can Gray water all you want, and probably should. But The fact still remains that it has been half a century since CA built its last storage and distribution capability. And it’s population has nearly tripled. And the southwest in general (adding in Vegas and Phoenix) has quintupled. Failing to keep your infrastructure in line with your population growth is a a failure of governance and a criminal misuse of tax monies.

you think we have it bad? In the PNW they have just approved a program to start tearing down their dams. While that doesn’t affect us much directly, the original bureau of reclamation and Central Valley water authority plan for southern cal was to send excess water from the flood prone farmlands of southern and central Oregon down to SoCal. They got as far as phase 1 or three planned phases when jerry brown scrapped the rest of it back in 1970 because he thought by canceling the infrastructure it would slow down the growth in CA. Anyway, with the PNW tearing down it’s dams, it would make it even harder to re instate and finish building the original phase 2 and phase 3 projects from bureau reclamation and Central Valley authority.

not sure how this is going to play out but you can’t water 60M people with infrastructure built for 20M. Even with gray water.

-Peter
Your "facts" are a bit off...

Diamond Valley was completed in 2002.

So even though CA has added to it's water storage, it's probably still not enough.

We could definitely use more storage, but the enviro nuts make it real hard to do.
The left wants to tear down dams, but you can bet they will still be washing their cars.

It's ok. It will rain and snow and fill everything back up again. It's kinna the whole purpose of the system, to have water in reserve for dry spells.

It's worked for close to 100 years so far. I'm sure it will work until mother nature takes us out, and the next generation of humans has to start all over again. 😉
 

hallett21

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Messages
10,574
Reaction score
8,167
Your "facts" are a bit off...

Diamond Valley was completed in 2002.

So even though CA has added to it's water storage, it's probably still not enough.

We could definitely use more storage, but the enviro nuts make it real hard to do.
The left wants to tear down dams, but you can bet they will still be washing their cars.

It's ok. It will rain and snow and fill everything back up again. It's kinna the whole purpose of the system, to have water in reserve for dry spells.

It's worked for close to 100 years so far. I'm sure it will work until mother nature takes us out, and the next generation of humans has to start all over again.
CA also has been building concrete enclosed water storage. One off of the 101/134 interchange


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

2FORCEFULL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
26,741
Reaction score
13,714
Your "facts" are a bit off...

Diamond Valley was completed in 2002.

So even though CA has added to it's water storage, it's probably still not enough.

We could definitely use more storage, but the enviro nuts make it real hard to do.
The left wants to tear down dams, but you can bet they will still be washing their cars.

It's ok. It will rain and snow and fill everything back up again. It's kinna the whole purpose of the system, to have water in reserve for dry spells.

It's worked for close to 100 years so far. I'm sure it will work until mother nature takes us out, and the next generation of humans has to start all over again. 😉
Kinda like the Dinosaurs ????
 
Top