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Loyalty - employers / employees . What do employees owe - if anything?

Uncle Dave

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I hear lots of guys complaining all the time about companies not being loyal to employees
The big one I hear is replacing them with lower paid workers.

To my mind this is a 2 way street- loyalty begets loyalty.


Let say I was a small business and I hired one sales guy, paid a decent but not large wage and was working this guy up the ladder.
I send him to trade shows and am planning on spending education money to grow him over time.
The someone else offers him a job and the guy doesn't so much as sit down to talk about it with me after I spend all the money training him and getting him up and going in the field - he just takes the other job and leaves me high and dry.

The small business owner takes risk and sweats into the guy to get him up to speed and train him-

Should there be any loyalty to an employer who gave you a break?

Curious what the peanut gallery has to say here.

In my experience everyone wants it- but very few give it to begin with.

UD
 

wsuwrhr

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I was always the guy doing the shit jobs and asking for something better and getting brushed off as the stupid kid.

Fuck em, I left. I got a career job, moved up the ladder, educating myself the whole way, until manufacturing took a dive to china. I saw the writing on the wall, I bought my own machinery and jumped. I imagine at some point, I would have had to start on my own anyway. 60 80K wwould have been the max I would get working for someone

So in your setup, yet there should be some loyalty from the employee for being helped out. On the same token, the employee should be bettering the end product with that education, adding to the bottom line the whole time.
 

Ibeplumbing

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I've been doing plumbing since I was a kid. My dad was a plumber, I've been one now for 10 years professionally, not counting anything prior to being a professional, not apprentice time. I still to this day get brushed off like some dumbass kid. Everywhere I have worked I've always been the young guy, it took every company I've been at a little while to figure out that I'm their best friend and asset in the field. I'm usually soured on them at that point, due to lack of respect, whether that be unfulfilled or broken promises, lack of respect for my time and wishes. Once they realize what I am, they have shit on me for quite some time and then I become the supervisor. Which usually entails doing their job for them for very little extra pay. I usually go along with this because I make it very clear up front that I want a higher position in the company and to be manger at some point. They use it against me to get me to work 80+ hrs a week doing everything they don't want to do. I get fed up, discuss it with them, it leads to them promising and not delivering in the end. They all usually beg for me back once I have left...so at this point, I have no trust, faith or loyalty in or to a company
 

ElGuapo

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I hear lots of guys complaining all the time about companies not being loyal to employees
The big one I hear is replacing them with lower paid workers.

To my mind this is a 2 way street- loyalty begets loyalty.


Let say I was a small business and I hired one sales guy, paid a decent but not large wage and was working this guy up the ladder.
I send him to trade shows and am planning on spending education money to grow him over time.
The someone else offers him a job and the guy doesn't so much as sit down to talk about it with me after I spend all the money training him and getting him up and going in the field - he just takes the other job and leaves me high and dry.

The small business owner takes risk and sweats into the guy to get him up to speed and train him-

Should there be any loyalty to an employer who gave you a break?

Curious what the peanut gallery has to say here.

In my experience everyone wants it- but very few give it to begin with.

UD
This is a tough because there are many different variables in the problem. For example did the employee leave for the exact same job? Different industries have different rates of turnover. For example smaller accounting firms pay extremely low compared to government and or private business. However its something that must be dealt with and try to keep the employees as long as possible while paying the least possible. I am sure it is the same with other industries. My in-laws own multiple carpet cleaning franchises and the magic number seems to 8 years. No matter what after 8 years the tech who barely made it out of highschool and can make close to 60K thinks they can make that money any where and will just leave.
 

KENDOG689

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This is a tough because there are many different variables in the problem. For example did the employee leave for the exact same job? Different industries have different rates of turnover. For example smaller accounting firms pay extremely low compared to government and or private business. However its something that must be dealt with and try to keep the employees as long as possible while paying the least possible. I am sure it is the same with other industries. My in-laws own multiple carpet cleaning franchises and the magic number seems to 8 years. No matter what after 8 years the tech who barely made it out of highschool and can make close to 60K thinks they can make that money any where and will just leave.
I have put I a lot of good time over the years.Always stuck around for the big pay.Never happened til I went on my own.Now again hunting and I know what up for.
 

Uncle Dave

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I've been doing plumbing since I was a kid. My dad was a plumber, I've been one now for 10 years professionally, not counting anything prior to being a professional, not apprentice time. I still to this day get brushed off like some dumbass kid. Everywhere I have worked I've always been the young guy, it took every company I've been at a little while to figure out that I'm their best friend and asset in the field. I'm usually soured on them at that point, due to lack of respect, whether that be unfulfilled or broken promises, lack of respect for my time and wishes. Once they realize what I am, they have shit on me for quite some time and then I become the supervisor. Which usually entails doing their job for them for very little extra pay. I usually go along with this because I make it very clear up front that I want a higher position in the company and to be manger at some point. They use it against me to get me to work 80+ hrs a week doing everything they don't want to do. I get fed up, discuss it with them, it leads to them promising and not delivering in the end. They all usually beg for me back once I have left...so at this point, I have no trust, faith or loyalty in or to a company

Employers that use people dont deserve loyalty- but what employers that care and invest?

UD
 

Uncle Dave

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This is a tough because there are many different variables in the problem. For example did the employee leave for the exact same job? Different industries have different rates of turnover. For example smaller accounting firms pay extremely low compared to government and or private business. However its something that must be dealt with and try to keep the employees as long as possible while paying the least possible. I am sure it is the same with other industries. My in-laws own multiple carpet cleaning franchises and the magic number seems to 8 years. No matter what after 8 years the tech who barely made it out of highschool and can make close to 60K thinks they can make that money any where and will just leave.
Im talking about an employers that has demonstrated and acted upon a path of growth for the employee.

Does that employer after acting in good faith deserve so much as a discussion before having their investment leave with no opportunity to counter?

What Im hearing and reading here is that majority feel is everyman for himself, at every moment in time that there is, and there is no loyalty regardless.

Om ok with whatever peoples answer is, Im just curious to hear what people say and how they justify it.

UD
 

allblowdup

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Around heer there is almost a contract for everything regarding employment, even for the proper use of cell phones, The contracts are starting to gain some power as some have been awarded in favor of the employer when dealing with employees that are privy to trade secrets and client lists or even just dealing directly with clients. Employers don't stand a chance if they don't. Employees don't even know what unemployment is. I have had guys walk out at coffee time because you told them to turn there music down in the shop. I have had guys freak out and bitch about the mess they left on the floor an hour before. To be honest I would love to have respect for my employees right now but everytime I turn around I am disgusted how they treat themselves and everyone around them.

Case in point on Monday we were a little slow, welder A walks up to meet after coming 15 min late and says, whats up I got options you know. I say don't worry if some wrk doesn't come in right away he will still get paid for three hours as per the labor laws. fortionately 15 min later we we were swamped. Next day still swamped same welder txt me and says his truck won't start doesn't know when or if he will be in today. Next day welder shows up 15 min late again, i give him a portable truck welding job and says he aint doing it. I then tell himthat it is inside 2 hrs from town so he gets paid for driving for 4 hrs and he says ok then. I would skid this guy in a second and I will as soon as I can find a guy that is better. Its been two years so far. Fun eh! might not be to much longer with oil prices the way they are.
 

was thatguy

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You guys know that I am in one of the most cut throat industries that exists.

I am here to say that loyalty ALWAYS matters. It may not pay off today, or even next year, but in the end it always pays off.

I can and have been released from projects because of a bean counter's decision half a world away. These guys do NOT sugar coat or fuck around with "feelings".

BUT, when I do a job I do it 100% and never, ever do anything behind the clients back. In this industry, an employee on one job might be a supervisor on the next...it's a crazy business.

If I get a better offer somewhere, I look at the security of it (as far as that goes in the oil field), and make a decision. I tell both parties the situation and what my decision was based on.
Over the years, it has served me well because there is trust built.
They may not like my decision, but they respect my openness and honesty. By the same token, they don't bullshit me by promising long term work or things of that nature.

Last winter I needed to be home a lot, and a previous client had just what I needed. Small jobs for about 10 days a month at my normal rate...perfect.
He could have gave it to a local guy instead of me, 4 states away, and it was work I was overqualified for, but he gave it to me because I was always honest with him.
Most jobs I go on I know someone there that I have worked with years before and sometimes in a whole different country.

Then again, most people can't even believe mine is a real job, it is so far separated from a "normal" job!:yikes
 

hallett21

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My short answer until I can type more UD would be yes I would show loyalty to you if you invested in me and my success. AS WELL AS treated me with respect. And if I was offered a better paying job in the same field I would sit and discuss with you.
 

rivrrts429

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Im talking about an employers that has demonstrated and acted upon a path of growth for the employee.

Does that employer after acting in good faith deserve so much as a discussion before having their investment leave with no opportunity to counter?

What Im hearing and reading here is that majority feel is everyman for himself, at every moment in time that there is, and there is no loyalty regardless.

Om ok with whatever peoples answer is, Im just curious to hear what people say and how they justify it.

UD
The bigger question needs to come from within.

What could you have done differently or provided that this guy felt you couldn't or wouldn't provide.

The guy has to put food on the table. Just because you taught him doesn't mean it's all rainbows and unicorns for him financially. He may have been head hunted by brand X. So then the guy says it's all about pay... Now you decide to match his offer, yet both sides are pissed because your paying more for the same output and he had to threaten to quit to get you to pay him what brand X did during an interview.

On the flip side, what kind of integrity does it show if he backs out of his commitment to the other guy because you decided to finally pay him?

Does he have an opportunity for growth staying with you? What's the moral like? Benefits, retirement, etc...

I'm in sales. Get paid extremely well and get 8 weeks paid vacation per year. 401k and insurance. I've been with the same company for 15 years. I've never had to ask for pay, the company has always been one step ahead and doesn't question me. They trust me. Trust is a gift. In return I give them 150% and my revenue proves that.

It's a ton of work, like a marriage, for both sides to be loyal to the bone. If one is more loyal than the other it's only a matter of time.
 

Uncle Dave

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The bigger question needs to come from within.

What could you have done differently or provided that this guy felt you couldn't or wouldn't provide.

The guy has to put food on the table. Just because you taught him doesn't mean it's all rainbows and unicorns for him financially. He may have been head hunted by brand X. So then the guy says it's all about pay... Now you decide to match his offer, yet both sides are pissed because your paying more for the same output and he had to threaten to quit to get you to pay him what brand X did during an interview.

On the flip side, what kind of integrity does it show if he backs out of his commitment to the other guy because you decided to finally pay him?

Does he have an opportunity for growth staying with you? What's the moral like? Benefits, retirement, etc...

I'm in sales. Get paid extremely well and get 8 weeks paid vacation per year. 401k and insurance. I've been with the same company for 15 years. I've never had to ask for pay, the company has always been one step ahead and doesn't question me. They trust me. Trust is a gift. In return I give them 150% and my revenue proves that.

It's a ton of work, like a marriage, for both sides to be loyal to the bone. If one is more loyal than the other it's only a matter of time.
Everyone has to put food on the table.

"Does he have an opportunity for growth staying with you?"

I would think If Im investing in education which is a double hit (because I have to pay for his time AND the education) that by and large answers the growth question. The flip-side being if the employer wont invest in my education then I know the answer to growth is no - Im a grunt - full stop.

Im of the mindset that we are ALL in sales everyone in the company.

Good employer employee relationship are tremendous work- basically my second wife.

Sounds like you have the kind of relationship with you company I work to foster with my employees. Nice work.


UD
 

Ibeplumbing

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Employers that use people dont deserve loyalty- but what employers that care and invest?

UD
I've yet to find any of those. If you know any let me know! You are 100 % correct though. I'm 100% loyal until that gets broken to me. I don't Sabotage anything after that point, but you care less and options are now open. I honestly hate changing employers. It's so incredibly hard to find one who won't screw you for a dollar. I'm sure the feeling is mutual
 

ltbaney1

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Not even fucking remotely.



UD
Didn't mean it like that, the smiley didn't go through. I do agree with parts of what you and others said here. I'm loyal to a fault a lot of the time, I've topped at my current position, but I'm happy there and wasn't looking when they approached me. My only reservation on not telling my current boss is that if I tell him he will question my intentions of staying forever. On the other hand you can NEVER fault a man for trying to better his position. This decision has been keeping me up at nights knowing the possible impact on my current employer if I leave, and if I do how can I minimize the impact for both him and my customers.
 

Uncle Dave

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Didn't mean it like that, the smiley didn't go through. I do agree with parts of what you and others said here. I'm loyal to a fault a lot of the time, I've topped at my current position, but I'm happy there and wasn't looking when they approached me. My only reservation on not telling my current boss is that if I tell him he will question my intentions of staying forever. On the other hand you can NEVER fault a man for trying to better his position. This decision has been keeping me up at nights knowing the possible impact on my current employer if I leave, and if I do how can I minimize the impact for both him and my customers.

No worries at all- only you know your circumstance and whats right for you. Its a very complex situation that doesn't lend it self to easy quick answers.

Any boss that isn't supporting of his guys bettering themselves is a selfish prick and likely not worthy of loyalty.

I wanted to explore the topic with polluting another thread.

Real curious to see the responses.

I have a day job and own and am partners in several small companies.
I was able to hone my skills with a big companies training me.
This investment in me has helped me be e better boss, employee, and owner.

I dont have loyalty issues in my small companies we dont really have " employees" as much as we have "owners".

Big companies- tougher situation.



UD
 

outboardrick

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For most of my career I've worked on commission, flat rate automotive technician. Employer loyalty was a big plus, and so was my commitment to them. For the most part we both lived up to our duties with me being a top producer and they making their effort to take care of us employees. I now work for the government and it's a whole different dynamic, unions and the whole "I can do whatever I want and you can't do anything about it". Since I'm a supervisor I have to deal (read babysit) with all of that while still being a watchdog for your taxpayer dollars. I still try to do the right thing, and I believe that there are others out there that try also. I know it's a fallacy to think that the world can get better, but if we're not part of the solution aren't we part of the problem? Lol, I still think loyalty is a good thing and we should all try. That being said, I'd take the better offer in a heartbeat :rolleyes
 

LuckyDaze

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So far in my working life I have put more into my employer than they have put into me. This has hardened me to looking out for whats best for myself and my family. As Ive aged Ive learned if my employer was teaching me and developing me I will put that back into my job. Ive learned that its best to not discuss other opportunities that are being presented to me as it makes my employer think I am always looking for something better. Its a balance man.

I will say this and I believe it absolutely.

An employee doesn't quit a company, they quit the manager.

So, if there are issues with retention chances are its not with the company so much as the leadership, either in the level of engagement with the employee isnt there or its just the simple fact that the wrong butts in the wrong chairs.
 

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I'm union and very loyal to my company. They tell me take a week or two off I'll wait around for them. I guess I'm a dying breed
 

BHC Vic

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Around heer there is almost a contract for everything regarding employment, even for the proper use of cell phones, The contracts are starting to gain some power as some have been awarded in favor of the employer when dealing with employees that are privy to trade secrets and client lists or even just dealing directly with clients. Employers don't stand a chance if they don't. Employees don't even know what unemployment is. I have had guys walk out at coffee time because you told them to turn there music down in the shop. I have had guys freak out and bitch about the mess they left on the floor an hour before. To be honest I would love to have respect for my employees right now but everytime I turn around I am disgusted how they treat themselves and everyone around them.

Case in point on Monday we were a little slow, welder A walks up to meet after coming 15 min late and says, whats up I got options you know. I say don't worry if some wrk doesn't come in right away he will still get paid for three hours as per the labor laws. fortionately 15 min later we we were swamped. Next day still swamped same welder txt me and says his truck won't start doesn't know when or if he will be in today. Next day welder shows up 15 min late again, i give him a portable truck welding job and says he aint doing it. I then tell himthat it is inside 2 hrs from town so he gets paid for driving for 4 hrs and he says ok then. I would skid this guy in a second and I will as soon as I can find a guy that is better. Its been two years so far. Fun eh! might not be to much longer with oil prices the way they are.
Union welders make over 60 an hour do u beat that?
 

530RL

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So understand you correctly.

Neither side should give a shit. Is that what you mean?

UD
Nope, it was a cynical attempt at humor.

Loyalty, like respect, or morality, or character are all squishy terms. For example, if you hire a young guy, train him, educate him and he gets a better opportunity at a place that can pay more, or has better products, or has better technology is it dis-loyal for that person to take the opportunity to better himself and his family even though you have a large financial and emotional investment in them?

I don't have the answer but I do know that the answer is different for every person. I also know that those words have a different meaning to every person and my view of loyalty may be different than another person. Further, I understand that my view may not be correct for every person or every situation.

In your example, I suspect loyalty is not whether or not he stays or goes, but how one handles themselves if they move and after the move.

Loyalty, respect, morality and other words like them, as well as how people handle themselves is a clear indication of one's character. And we all want to be people of character.

Bottom line is from your posts, I like your character. I also believe that culture in a company matters and a good culture fosters all the inputs of loyalty.

So I would really like everyone to conduct themselves in a way that I think is appropriate. But I realize that how I conduct myself in business is not the same as how others have conducted themselves and in some cases it has cost me short term profits.

Over the long-term, loyalty and character matters as it is in essence a person's true net worth. But, as a cynic, I am not convinced that everyone understands that or thinks long term.

But I do like your thinking, and I like the discussion.
 

Uncle Dave

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Every man for himself. Loyalty will cost you more in the long run. ALWAYS be looking out for yourself and your family.....nothing else matters. ALWAYS be looking for a bigger payday because living comfortably is a valuable comodity.
I totally get that having been screwed by companies many times.

At the same time this seems to be the 65/35 Majority here.

This is important for me to hear because Im starting my first new thing in a new industry in a while this year.
I closed down my old venture after 15 years and am moving on to the new one (different industry than boating)

This thread helps me analyze a hiring strategy going forward I was trying to decide weather to

1. Hire a younger guy I need for some others things and spend money to train him for the task.
2. Hire competent piece working and/ or sub out this portion of the business.

I wanted to hear what kind of expectations to you guys on RD place have of a work situation today (Ive been in the TV business a long time and thats its own perspective)

Im old school so I can't just trust myself and wanted to hear what the group thinks heres what I heard in two recent threads.

Dont hire a young guy and spend the money to train him because based on what I hear theres "about" an 80/20 chance he'll fuck me and leave without so much as a conversation after I commit. - thats just the way it is today.

Don't bother with the outbound loyalty as the default status is that I wont have it regardless of what I do.

Im not emotional about this, just very interested to see how this unfolded.

Thanks for the time guys!

Uncle Dave
 

CoolCruzin

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Money is the best motivator - employers need to pay well ..
Employees need to earn a honest days pay to get the best motivator to apply.
And a good attitude which starts from the getting motivated .
Those three are key things. . .or someone leaves or gets fired.
 

Uncle Dave

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Nope, it was a cynical attempt at humor.

Loyalty, like respect, or morality, or character are all squishy terms. For example, if you hire a young guy, train him, educate him and he gets a better opportunity at a place that can pay more, or has better products, or has better technology is it dis-loyal for that person to take the opportunity to better himself and his family even though you have a large financial and emotional investment in them?

I don't have the answer but I do know that the answer is different for every person. I also know that those words have a different meaning to every person and my view of loyalty may be different than another person. Further, I understand that my view may not be correct for every person or every situation.
Its never disloyal for a guy to move up- sideways or out in whatever way is best for him. I actually actively work on career development for employees.

To my old school ways its disloyal to the company thats paid me for X amount of time and paying me today to not at least get a shot at keeping me, or at least discussing it before turning in a pink slip, but thats me.

I guess I have always participated in a review process so I haven't been surprised much by this type of thing as I see it way out-

I was simply surprised by the number of guys that jus don't give a fuck.

Thanks for the feedback!

UD
 

BHC Vic

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So loyal you take on unlicensed side work. ;)
IMO taking work from either my union or employer would b unloyal. But my tiny side jobs aren't even on the radar so I'm not sure how that goes
 

Uncle Dave

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IMO taking work from either my union or employer would b unloyal. But my tiny side jobs aren't even on the radar so I'm not sure how that goes
Always wondered how the whole unlicensed side job thing works and who gets the draw the line at where it is and isn't ok.

Probably same guys that decide the work day starts at 9 and ends at 5.

UD
 

BHC Vic

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Always wondered how the whole unlicensed side job thing works and who gets the draw the line at where it is and isn't ok.

Probably same guys that decide the work day starts at 9 and ends at 5.

UD
If they told me to stop I would but even having ba's as close friends they've never said anything
 

BHC Vic

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All they've ever said is don't get caught on a prevailing wage job
 
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