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Loyalty - employers / employees . What do employees owe - if anything?

BHC Vic

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Yes because they want to work. Love how my Union friends suck the union dick and tell me how great it is and how much money they make and non Union wages are a joke, etc etc

Yet they are the ones constantly get laid off and looking for work. Or having to do side work to make ends meet. All the while claiming they are worth so much hourly, yet at the end of the day they are just a laborer. Lol.
Like I said if u aren't worth the pay u sit at home. Thank god I've been very fortunate and blessed w the ability to work well w my hands. I'm strong and fast and im good at what i do. Intake pride in my work and I'm always trying to b the best. Even when im sweeping the floors I'm hustling. I tend to stay busy
 

Riverbound

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Like I said if u aren't worth the pay u sit at home. Thank god I've been very fortunate and blessed w the ability to work well w my hands. I'm strong and fast and im good at what i do. Intake pride in my work and I'm always trying to b the best. Even when im sweeping the floors I'm hustling. I tend to stay busy
Yet your Union job doesn't keep you busy enough or pay you consistently enough that you couldn't survive without your non Union side work.......interesting.
 

BHC Vic

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Yet your Union job doesn't keep you busy enough or pay you consistently enough that you couldn't survive without your non Union side work.......interesting.
I've never once said that. I could easily survive without it. My wife makes enough we could survive w out me working at all. I choose to do it to try to get ahead. I'm 27 i have a nice home in chino. We have nice cars and lots of toys. Im looking to buy a river house. I bought my first house at 23. I'm very driven it is pretty interesting
 

was thatguy

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I've never once said that. I could easily survive without it. My wife makes enough we could survive w out me working at all. I choose to do it to try to get ahead. I'm 27 i have a nice home in chino. We have nice cars and lots of toys. Im looking to buy a river house. I bought my first house at 23. I'm very driven it is pretty interesting
That's way good V!
I like all my toys too!

But take it from me, an old fart, the longer you wait to invest OUTSIDE the union pension, the more it will hurt later in life...and trust me when I say it comes up on you so very fast!!:yikes

Like many, THAT is the one area I admittedly fucked up the worst at. Thankfully I was able to recover more or less because of consulting pay, but you really should consider thinking about acquiring appreciating assets!:thumbup::D:D
 

Uncle Dave

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Yeah, and in the HVAC biz a "side job" will likely include your work truck (mileage, fuel, tires, ins.), your freon, solder, tools, screws, sheet metal etc etc. so I get your point in your case. I've trained and treated employees in my sector of const. well but at the end of the day the reality is almost all "side jobs " have at the root a cheap ass or schiester client who would be a waste of time for any legit contractor who is in demand---
Then I would agree thats basically theft.


Uncle Dave
 

Uncle Dave

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Employee. No question.
Are you saying the employee should or does take the loyalty risk first?

To me the employer almost always takes the risk first.

1. The employer has to pay the employee even while they are useless under the guise of training.
2. The employer takes the reputation hit is the employee is a buffoon.
3. The employer sends the employee to his customers exposing him to "side work".
5. The employer carries the burden of payroll, and Paperwork filing and usually increased insurance if the employee is full time.
6. The employer exposes the customer database.
7. IF the employer pays for training he pays the workers salary while he's training, he pays for the schooling and has to cover the empty spot during school - its actually a 3 way loser for the employer.

Then what hear on here is that after I do all this - the guy will have no issues taking a job for a 1.0 more without even so much a conversation with me because "thats the way business is today" .

Lots of talk about contractor work here which has been fascinating to watch unfold as its completely different from my line of work.

UD
 

Uncle Dave

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I've never once said that. I could easily survive without it. My wife makes enough we could survive w out me working at all. I choose to do it to try to get ahead. I'm 27 i have a nice home in chino. We have nice cars and lots of toys. Im looking to buy a river house. I bought my first house at 23. I'm very driven it is pretty interesting
I like driven young people - they remind of me, and I go out of my way to match enthusiasm and work ethic - with opportunity and money.

I got no time of lazy kids on the dole.

UD
 

Bobby V

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I've never once said that. I could easily survive without it. My wife makes enough we could survive w out me working at all. I choose to do it to try to get ahead. I'm 27 i have a nice home in chino. We have nice cars and lots of toys. Im looking to buy a river house. I bought my first house at 23. I'm very driven it is pretty interesting
V You may as well give up now. Riverbound has all the legal issues correct. But the problem is most MEP tradesman and carpenters union or non union will do a side job if they can. Its been that way for years.
 

Outdrive1

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I am getting sentenced for a DUI jan 23... Best case formal probation for 5 years worst case 2 years custody
Can I ask what type of dui carries those penalties??
 

BHC Vic

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Can I ask what type of dui carries those penalties??
I had a wet wreckless 7 years ago. That now turns into a DUI. That makes this last one number 2. My bac was a .26. Anything over .15 carries an enhancement.
 

Uncle Dave

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I had a wet wreckless 7 years ago. That now turns into a DUI. That makes this last one number 2. My bac was a .26. Anything over .15 carries an enhancement.
Pretty tough to tell zigs from zags @ .26


UD
 

BHC Vic

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Pretty tough to tell zigs from zags @ .26


UD
I have a high tolerance. First one I was a .34 and I was sleeping in a parking lot. Alcoholism runs in my family which is y I can't drink at all. I black out and function for hours. It's crazy scary
 

Flyinbowtie

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Uncle Dave...

You are expressing values based on the America of old, which isn't as commonplace as it once was.
It has been my experience as a employer you are very much dependent on the work done by the people involved in the perspective employee's upbringing, the "formative years" of his/her life, and you'll know it within an hour of sitting down with them if they are worth your investment, and a new employee is an investment.
If it goes right they put in the time and make the effort to learn, and you throw in the teaching and pay them, probably more than they are worth, until they begin learning enough to start making a return on your investment. If they don't come to you with the right mindset you both lose.
When I was running our training team back when we were going through 100 applicants to get 1 employee who could get all the way through the process and be a competent but green deputy sheriff sitting a the briefing table ready to go 10-8.
The problem you are having now has it's roots in those days. We were seeing it back then, too. It started with what we called "generation X" and hasn't got any better.
People.
As a culture parents are not teaching their kids the fundamental values that we learned, that were a "given" in every American home only 30 years ago. Yes, there are some, but it is no longer the norm.
You are going to have to widen your net, and throw a whole lot more of the catch overboard to get what you need to do the job...and when you find the diamond in the rough you are going to have to pay for it, because it won't last. This is just the way it is. It won't change until there are enough parents out there who change it. There are a few young people out there who figure it out without a good parent team, and a few more who learn it via the military, but they get snatched up quickly in the job market.
The times, they are a changin'....and not necessarily for the better. I think that being in charge of the hiring/training process at any company these days is going to be a serious challenge.
 

milkmoney

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I have a high tolerance. First one I was a .34 and I was sleeping in a parking lot. Alcoholism runs in my family which is y I can't drink at all. I black out and function for hours. It's crazy scary
That right there is why u should never pick up a bottle
 

Uncle Dave

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I have a high tolerance. First one I was a .34 and I was sleeping in a parking lot. Alcoholism runs in my family which is y I can't drink at all. I black out and function for hours. It's crazy scary
I get it.

Once by accident I mixed alcohol and Ambien. Result was alarming.

Tough situation. Once this is over you shouldn't touch the sauce.

Weed (on your time) seems a far better outlet for you once this is over.

Trust me when I say the guys that invented television as we know it were/are total stoners and at the same time smartest engineers in the world.

Although Im a conservative guy, both the company I work at today my own personal view of what happens outside the office - and that is peoples outlets of choice on THEIR time is of no consequence to me.



UD
 

hallett21

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Question for employers.

Would it effect your hiring decision if a potential candidate's goal was to go into business for him/herself? Would you be looking for a 6-8+ year commitment from them or 4-5? This is all under the assumption they are a decent person who wouldn't just up and leave you in the middle of the night no warning.

I ask because unless you were handed over (doesn't mean you did not earn it or pay your dues) a family business eventually you are going to walk away from an employer to make more money. The same way I'm sure your current employer walked away from his/her employer to start their business.

Sometimes I see posts on here from business owners that are shocked that an employee wants to leave them to venture out on their own. To me the only way to avoid that is pay them more either in salary or in a % of profit sharing. In essence make it a poor fiscal choice to leave you. Granted there's no guarantee that they don't leave anyway. I think that comes down to you, the owner's judgement of a persons integrity. aka take a big fat risk I'm sure.

And if an employee can go down the street set up shop, and be a direct competitor to you who turns out solid work. Then either they outgrew your company or were not being compensated enough, which in turn caused them to venture out. I can't remember what the stat was but I believe 90% of small business (50+\- employees) fail in the first year.
 

Riverbound

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Question for employers.

Would it effect your hiring decision if a potential candidate's goal was to go into business for him/herself? Would you be looking for a 6-8+ year commitment from them or 4-5? This is all under the assumption they are a decent person who wouldn't just up and leave you in the middle of the night no warning.

I ask because unless you were handed over (doesn't mean you did not earn it or pay your dues) a family business eventually you are going to walk away from an employer to make more money. The same way I'm sure your current employer walked away from his/her employer to start their business.

Sometimes I see posts on here from business owners that are shocked that an employee wants to leave them to venture out on their own. To me the only way to avoid that is pay them more either in salary or in a % of profit sharing. In essence make it a poor fiscal choice to leave you. Granted there's no guarantee that they don't leave anyway. I think that comes down to you, the owner's judgement of a persons integrity. aka take a big fat risk I'm sure.

And if an employee can go down the street set up shop, and be a direct competitor to you who turns out solid work. Then either they outgrew your company or were not being compensated enough, which in turn caused them to venture out. I can't remember what the stat was but I believe 90% of small business (50+\- employees) fail in the first year.
I agree with everything you said.
 

Flyinbowtie

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Vic I am sure you already know this, but being employed and having stability in your life will help at sentencing.
I would get my head and my affairs sorted for some sort of time in custody tho. I don't think it will be 2 years but I would not be surprised to see 6 months to a year. You would do about 60% of whatever with work and good time, and if it is at the long end of it you can apply for a modification after a period of time..(shorten the sentence)
The probation report will carry some info that will help you predict what is coming. I'd like to think they will offer a deal where you do time but are on a work release program so you can continue to provide for your family.
I also come from a long line of alcoholics. I don't seem to have an addictive personality, but I have pounded it into my sons that they must be very aware of our family history.
Best of luck to you.
 

farmo83

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We studied loyalty and what motivates people pretty extensively when I was in grad school and a large part of it is generational based. I'm in my early 30's and most of my generation grew up watching our parents get laid off or deal with some other kind of financial hardship, ie the .com crash or an oil crash. As we became very disloyal and became selfish in the sense that we are always looking out for ourselves. Baby Boomers and most of Gen X are more loyal as during their formative years they did not deal with these types of issues. Another reason is with the advent of the internet it's easier to locate jobs available and salary info. 30 years ago you couldn't just google something and find 40 jobs to apply for, or find out that the average pay for whatever your doing is 2 bucks an hour higher then your making.

I work in the oil and gas industry and have seen several rounds of layoffs( I'm sure they are in the future with the current market). I honestly don't feel the company is willing to keep me around during bad times why should I extend them the same? My Dad worked harder then anybody else I've ever known for a company for 29 years and ended up with quite a few unfulfilled promises at the end. He went to one of his competitors and is making double what he was making.

All of this is merely my opinion. At the end of the day we all have to make sure we have food on the table and a roof over our heads, how we go about that is our business.
 

Uncle Dave

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Uncle Dave...

You are expressing values based on the America of old, which isn't as commonplace as it once was.
It has been my experience as a employer you are very much dependent on the work done by the people involved in the perspective employee's upbringing, the "formative years" of his/her life, and you'll know it within an hour of sitting down with them if they are worth your investment, and a new employee is an investment.
If it goes right they put in the time and make the effort to learn, and you throw in the teaching and pay them, probably more than they are worth, until they begin learning enough to start making a return on your investment. If they don't come to you with the right mindset you both lose.
When I was running our training team back when we were going through 100 applicants to get 1 employee who could get all the way through the process and be a competent but green deputy sheriff sitting a the briefing table ready to go 10-8.
The problem you are having now has it's roots in those days. We were seeing it back then, too. It started with what we called "generation X" and hasn't got any better.
People.
As a culture parents are not teaching their kids the fundamental values that we learned, that were a "given" in every American home only 30 years ago. Yes, there are some, but it is no longer the norm.
You are going to have to widen your net, and throw a whole lot more of the catch overboard to get what you need to do the job...and when you find the diamond in the rough you are going to have to pay for it, because it won't last. This is just the way it is. It won't change until there are enough parents out there who change it. There are a few young people out there who figure it out without a good parent team, and a few more who learn it via the military, but they get snatched up quickly in the job market.
The times, they are a changin'....and not necessarily for the better. I think that being in charge of the hiring/training process at any company these days is going to be a serious challenge.

Every kid today is told he's special and will get a ribbon for 9nth place.

I can promise that there will still be a little bit of that old America in my gigs,

- but what I'm hearing is that instead of erring on the generous side,

I need to err on the side of being a cheap nasty old bastard - because my payout wont be rewarded with loyalty anyway.

Grandad - was way generous
Dad- less so, but had his moments
Me - once generous - probably now stingy bastard.

This is a super valuable to see what the mindset of working guys making enough bank for a lifestyle (boating the river etc) s these are exactly the type of guy Im likely to employ in the new endeavor.

UD
 

Uncle Dave

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Question for employers.

Would it effect your hiring decision if a potential candidate's goal was to go into business for him/herself? Would you be looking for a 6-8+ year commitment from them or 4-5? This is all under the assumption they are a decent person who wouldn't just up and leave you in the middle of the night no warning.

I ask because unless you were handed over (doesn't mean you did not earn it or pay your dues) a family business eventually you are going to walk away from an employer to make more money. The same way I'm sure your current employer walked away from his/her employer to start their business.

Sometimes I see posts on here from business owners that are shocked that an employee wants to leave them to venture out on their own. To me the only way to avoid that is pay them more either in salary or in a % of profit sharing. In essence make it a poor fiscal choice to leave you. Granted there's no guarantee that they don't leave anyway. I think that comes down to you, the owner's judgement of a persons integrity. aka take a big fat risk I'm sure.

And if an employee can go down the street set up shop, and be a direct competitor to you who turns out solid work. Then either they outgrew your company or were not being compensated enough, which in turn caused them to venture out. I can't remember what the stat was but I believe 90% of small business (50+\- employees) fail in the first year.
There is point in a relationship that I define up front at where an employee can become a % partner.

With good people this discussion happens early. I set a clear expectation of what that means.

This way they work to help the business because they own apiece of it vs. be there for a check.

UD
 

farmo83

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I saw some earlier post I completely agree with about paying loyalty its sad but true. I had an uncle with a contacting business and he always made sure to pay the best wages in the city he was working in. In his time in business he had minimal turnover and never had somebody leave to start their own company. I asked him once about this and his answer was "Find good people and pay them what they are worth". It worked quite well for him over the years I have to say.
 

shueman

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The whole fiscal dynamics of business has changed...both large and small vs where it was 10-20 years ago.

The available workforce is not as "educated" as it needs to be.
Staying with one company for a career is no longer the norm.
Young workers today have more of a social focus than work focus to their lives.

Big companies answer to "shareholder value" and manage with a spreadsheet.
Small companies are more employee focused but struggle to survive against mega corps and slow economic growth as the recession (world-wide) continues to drag on.

Wages indexed against GDP are way down and are not likely to improve.
College grads start out at $10/hr just like the guy off the street; it's performance that dictates success.

Moral: If you have a quality employee, make sure you do your best at retention, but get some buy-in/partnering from them to more the business forward.
Lastly: Put it in WRITING and ACT upon it.

Just my .02
 

Uncle Dave

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Moral: If you have a quality employee, make sure you do your best at retention, but get some buy-in/partnering from them to more the business forward.
Lastly: Put it in WRITING and ACT upon it.

Just my .02
Yup because based on what I read in the last 2 days - they will have zero qualms about leaving without so much as a discussion.

By and large they feel they owe you nothing at all.

UD
 

hallett21

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There is point in a relationship that I define up front at where an employee can become a % partner.

With good people this discussion happens early. I set a clear expectation of what that means.

This way they work to help the business because they own apiece of it vs. be there for a check.

UD
That would have me hungry to drum up more business for you!
 

HotRod82

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There is point in a relationship that I define up front at where an employee can become a % partner.

With good people this discussion happens early. I set a clear expectation of what that means.

This way they work to help the business because they own apiece of it vs. be there for a check.

UD
This is great advice, I owned a commercial HVAC biz for many years and here are a couple things I learned. Anyone in the trades who is smart and articulate is going to leave and start their own at some point so accept it and do what you can to keep them until that happens. I had a lot of success with retention with cash bonuses, (real cash, no taxes) and paid short days and days off? Take making more money somewhere else off the table and you will be ahead of the game. Loyalty this day and age is not what it used to be, the best you can do is manage it and treat people fair whichever side of the fence you are on.
 

jsquaredgc

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This has been an interesting thread, Im a little torn here as I ran a fully licensed side business during my days as an employee. However I was honest from the beginning with my last employer that I did side work in a different capacity then what my employer was doing, I was also responsible for bringing in a lot of work to that employer during my stay. He was fine with me doing what I needed to do because he was not able to pay me what I was used to making but needed my knowledge and experience so it was a good relationship for us for over 7 years. He also knew that my ultimate goal was to go out on my own.
Now with that said because of all the guys out there doing side work unlicensed- Legitimate companies like mine continue to get rate hikes from the state on Workers Comp because of this. I agree with Riverbound and all his comments on this situation. Currently J-Squared has 42 employees and I can honestly say that none of them want to leave, even when we get slow. I take care of my employees as they are my most valuable asset, without them this business does not survive. All the guys that get up at 3 am to be on a jobsite at 5am in LA or San Diego or wherever we are sending them and then have to sit in traffic and get home at 7pm invest a lot of time in this company and making it work. And for that they are compensated and appreciated. We do many things for our people to make their lives better. As an example we shut our office down for 2 week over the holidays so they could spend some quality time with their families over the holidays, they all received their weekly checks along with a Christmas bonus and Christmas Party. They all understand however that my generosity is not a sign of weakness and if you steal from me or abuse the privileges I give you you will be terminated.
Its easy for guys that think they are so great to say what they are doing is OK, and although your company might do million dollar jobs and you think this doesn't effect them it does. It effects every LEGITIMATE company out there trying to navigate all the day to day Bullshit that we deal with every day. Insurance, Workers Comp, Safety Regulations, Taxes, Overhead etc etc etc. Like Riverbound we are called in a lot to fix blantant defects done by other contractors. And if you really are as good as you say you are...why are you not working for yourself. Sounds to me that its easier to take a check and then take a job from someone who has put all his assets on the line to start his company and take care of his family. When you start bidding work and then loosing it to guys who are cheaper because they are not legit you might have a different feeling about all this.
Taking care of your family is the most important thing however until you are carrying another license in your wallet other then your Drivers License what you are doing hurts the industry that supports your family. If one of my employees wanted to go out on their own I would wish them the best of luck and do what I could to help, I would hope that he or she gained enough experience from here to make them confident enough to think they can, I take that as a compliment to the training I provided them during their tenure here. Everyone needs to carve their own path, but always remember as big as this industry is , its very small and i can say without question of a doubt you will cross paths with the same people at some point.
 

Uncle Dave

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This has been an interesting thread, Im a little torn here as I ran a fully licensed side business during my days as an employee. However I was honest from the beginning with my last employer that I did side work in a different capacity then what my employer was doing, I was also responsible for bringing in a lot of work to that employer during my stay. He was fine with me doing what I needed to do because he was not able to pay me what I was used to making but needed my knowledge and experience so it was a good relationship for us for over 7 years. He also knew that my ultimate goal was to go out on my own.
Now with that said because of all the guys out there doing side work unlicensed- Legitimate companies like mine continue to get rate hikes from the state on Workers Comp because of this. I agree with Riverbound and all his comments on this situation. Currently J-Squared has 42 employees and I can honestly say that none of them want to leave, even when we get slow. I take care of my employees as they are my most valuable asset, without them this business does not survive. All the guys that get up at 3 am to be on a jobsite at 5am in LA or San Diego or wherever we are sending them and then have to sit in traffic and get home at 7pm invest a lot of time in this company and making it work. And for that they are compensated and appreciated. We do many things for our people to make their lives better. As an example we shut our office down for 2 week over the holidays so they could spend some quality time with their families over the holidays, they all received their weekly checks along with a Christmas bonus and Christmas Party. They all understand however that my generosity is not a sign of weakness and if you steal from me or abuse the privileges I give you you will be terminated.
Its easy for guys that think they are so great to say what they are doing is OK, and although your company might do million dollar jobs and you think this doesn't effect them it does. It effects every LEGITIMATE company out there trying to navigate all the day to day Bullshit that we deal with every day. Insurance, Workers Comp, Safety Regulations, Taxes, Overhead etc etc etc. Like Riverbound we are called in a lot to fix blantant defects done by other contractors. And if you really are as good as you say you are...why are you not working for yourself. Sounds to me that its easier to take a check and then take a job from someone who has put all his assets on the line to start his company and take care of his family. When you start bidding work and then loosing it to guys who are cheaper because they are not legit you might have a different feeling about all this.
Taking care of your family is the most important thing however until you are carrying another license in your wallet other then your Drivers License what you are doing hurts the industry that supports your family. If one of my employees wanted to go out on their own I would wish them the best of luck and do what I could to help, I would hope that he or she gained enough experience from here to make them confident enough to think they can, I take that as a compliment to the training I provided them during their tenure here. Everyone needs to carve their own path, but always remember as big as this industry is , its very small and i can say without question of a doubt you will cross paths with the same people at some point.
great post.

Agreed upon side work because of a specific employment condition (less money etc) is completely fine by me-
As long as there was an upfront discussion and transparency about what was happening on MY time.

IF we make a deal that allows it - its a deal.

I had to do that all the time employing 3d artists- I had to let them go work on big film projects so they could keep skills current and make sure the customer met his deadline.

Every 3D movie ever made has had a point of crisis that need direct manufacturer support to resolve - I can give 8 hours of employee time to Pixar, Not 16 hours that they want - so them making up the difference to my guys was fine.


UD
 

coolchange

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I didn't have a "job" until I was in my 30's. Couldn't get one when I was a kid so my Dad gave a couple of accounts and I started my own deal. Things changed and I had to look for "work." (REAL long story"}
Employer hires me on (in Construction) cheap. I wind up being the go to guy on the job. No more money. Work comp prices sky rocket, You're all fired. They keep me on to finish the owners house, then drop me. Owner go to jail for tax and insurance fraud.
Breeding loyalty, fuck no.
Constuction takes a dump, I go to work pushin wrenches. Don't make shit building million plus cars. One raise in 5 years. Develop a rep and get recruited out. Give 2 weeks notice, now they're throwin money at me. "Why are you trying to keep me from leaving with money and you couldn't make me stay before". I'd rather drive 90 miles a day for more money than stay within 2 miles of home for the same amount after that offer to keep me. But the loss of thousands you should have been paying me before wasn't worth it. Plus I hated the manager and I told them I wouldn't stay for any amount. Loyalty? fuck no.

New shop. Bottom guy. One raise in 5 years. Eventually wind up being the GM basically. Still bottom in the pay range. Not one job left the shop I didn't have to have a hand in or fix on a come back. Customers don't want to talk to the owner, they want me. Owner Mother fucked me out in the shop in front of everybody. Really? Put the word out I'm looking, takes ayear but I'm gone. 2 weeks notice, owners doin' the peee pee dance. "You know. I always thought you would be the guy I turn this over to"." Let me figure something out". Again, to keep me from leaving, but you don't want to keep me happy while I'm here. Loyal. Fuck no. ( I said the shop was dying and he found out and was pissed. 3 years later with 1 guy left he has to shut it down. After I left in the next year and a half all the other (6) employees quit.
My job now. I'm WAY over qualified. Pay sucks. Bored as hell. But they love me. regular raises, benefits, etc. No stress and at this point it would be tuff to start again. Job will never be more than it is. I guess my point is if you find someone who is good, make sure they know it and treat them right. Most employers look at employes as "materials" or "costs" and treat them as such.
 

Uncle Dave

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I didn't have a "job" until I was in my 30's. Couldn't get one when I was a kid so my Dad gave a couple of accounts and I started my own deal. Things changed and I had to look for "work." (REAL long story"}
Employer hires me on (in Construction) cheap. I wind up being the go to guy on the job. No more money. Work comp prices sky rocket, You're all fired. They keep me on to finish the owners house, then drop me. Owner go to jail for tax and insurance fraud.
Breeding loyalty, fuck no.
Constuction takes a dump, I go to work pushin wrenches. Don't make shit building million plus cars. One raise in 5 years. Develop a rep and get recruited out. Give 2 weeks notice, now they're throwin money at me. "Why are you trying to keep me from leaving with money and you couldn't make me stay before". I'd rather drive 90 miles a day for more money than stay within 2 miles of home for the same amount after that offer to keep me. But the loss of thousands you should have been paying me before wasn't worth it. Plus I hated the manager and I told them I wouldn't stay for any amount. Loyalty? fuck no.

New shop. Bottom guy. One raise in 5 years. Eventually wind up being the GM basically. Still bottom in the pay range. Not one job left the shop I didn't have to have a hand in or fix on a come back. Customers don't want to talk to the owner, they want me. Owner Mother fucked me out in the shop in front of everybody. Really? Put the word out I'm looking, takes ayear but I'm gone. 2 weeks notice, owners doin' the peee pee dance. "You know. I always thought you would be the guy I turn this over to"." Let me figure something out". Again, to keep me from leaving, but you don't want to keep me happy while I'm here. Loyal. Fuck no. ( I said the shop was dying and he found out and was pissed. 3 years later with 1 guy left he has to shut it down. After I left in the next year and a half all the other (6) employees quit.
My job now. I'm WAY over qualified. Pay sucks. Bored as hell. But they love me. regular raises, benefits, etc. No stress and at this point it would be tuff to start again. Job will never be more than it is. I guess my point is if you find someone who is good, make sure they know it and treat them right. Most employers look at employes as "materials" or "costs" and treat them as such.
fuuuck.

Too bad you couldn't have sat down early and documented a succession plan so you didn't get hosed.

I trust little to none of what people tell me, and not much more of what they write.

Thanks for the post.

UD
 

Hammer

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There is point in a relationship that I define up front at where an employee can become a % partner.

With good people this discussion happens early. I set a clear expectation of what that means.

This way they work to help the business because they own apiece of it vs. be there for a check.

UD
^^^ dream employer right there. :thumbup:
 

coolchange

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fuuuck.

Too bad you couldn't have sat down early and documented a succession plan so you didn't get hosed.

I trust little to none of what people tell me, and not much more of what they write.

Thanks for the post.

UD
Construction and automotive fields don't really have "Succession plans"

Sorry I bothered, guess you didn't get what you wanted to hear.
 

Uncle Dave

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Construction and automotive fields don't really have "Succession plans"

Sorry I bothered, guess you didn't get what you wanted to hear.
not at all- I found your post very informative. I also thanked you for it.
It takes a while to get that out in writing and I for one appreciate that.

whenever this conversation happens-

You know. I always thought you would be the guy I turn this over to". that sounds like he had a succession plan in his mind at some point -

seem like you should have been made partner before that point to me.

UD
 

Uncle Dave

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^^^ dream employer right there. :thumbup:
Not quite but thanks.

Just a fair one that wants to keep and motivate good peeps the right way.

Im am quite hard, but fair - and loyal (and apparently naive)

A bit below Sn Drill instructor Sgt Heartman.

UD
 

Hammer

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Not quite but thanks.

Just a fair one that wants to keep and motivate good peeps the right way.

Im am quite hard, but fair - and loyal (and apparently naive)

A bit below Sn Drill instructor Sgt Heartman.

UD
Quite the contrary. An employer that offers that kind of financial opportunity is RARE these days...
 

coolchange

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not at all- I found your post very informative. I also thanked you for it.
It takes a while to get that out in writing and I for one appreciate that.

whenever this conversation happens-

You know. I always thought you would be the guy I turn this over to". that sounds like he had a succession plan in his mind at some point -

seem like you should have been made partner before that point to me.

UD
I took your response as sarcastic and a call out, If I was wrong I apologize.
I guess my bullet points should have been, don't be offering things to get people not to leave, when they should have been rewarded all along. Don't throw BS at me as I'm out the door. I'd rather work where I'm appreciated, for less pay.
 

Uncle Dave

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I took your response as sarcastic and a call out, If I was wrong I apologize.
I guess my bullet points should have been, don't be offering things to get people not to leave, when they should have been rewarded all along. Don't throw BS at me as I'm out the door. I'd rather work where I'm appreciated, for less pay.
Not at all.

I totally agree.

Throwing someone scraps as they are bailing hoping to hang on to someone they have fucked all along - is piss weak management.

I dont clarify my answers fully much of the time and piss people off unintentionally.

I make a review process part of employment.


UD
 
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