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Loyalty - employers / employees . What do employees owe - if anything?

BHC Vic

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This has been an interesting thread, Im a little torn here as I ran a fully licensed side business during my days as an employee. However I was honest from the beginning with my last employer that I did side work in a different capacity then what my employer was doing, I was also responsible for bringing in a lot of work to that employer during my stay. He was fine with me doing what I needed to do because he was not able to pay me what I was used to making but needed my knowledge and experience so it was a good relationship for us for over 7 years. He also knew that my ultimate goal was to go out on my own.
Now with that said because of all the guys out there doing side work unlicensed- Legitimate companies like mine continue to get rate hikes from the state on Workers Comp because of this. I agree with Riverbound and all his comments on this situation. Currently J-Squared has 42 employees and I can honestly say that none of them want to leave, even when we get slow. I take care of my employees as they are my most valuable asset, without them this business does not survive. All the guys that get up at 3 am to be on a jobsite at 5am in LA or San Diego or wherever we are sending them and then have to sit in traffic and get home at 7pm invest a lot of time in this company and making it work. And for that they are compensated and appreciated. We do many things for our people to make their lives better. As an example we shut our office down for 2 week over the holidays so they could spend some quality time with their families over the holidays, they all received their weekly checks along with a Christmas bonus and Christmas Party. They all understand however that my generosity is not a sign of weakness and if you steal from me or abuse the privileges I give you you will be terminated.
Its easy for guys that think they are so great to say what they are doing is OK, and although your company might do million dollar jobs and you think this doesn't effect them it does. It effects every LEGITIMATE company out there trying to navigate all the day to day Bullshit that we deal with every day. Insurance, Workers Comp, Safety Regulations, Taxes, Overhead etc etc etc. Like Riverbound we are called in a lot to fix blantant defects done by other contractors. And if you really are as good as you say you are...why are you not working for yourself. Sounds to me that its easier to take a check and then take a job from someone who has put all his assets on the line to start his company and take care of his family. When you start bidding work and then loosing it to guys who are cheaper because they are not legit you might have a different feeling about all this.
Taking care of your family is the most important thing however until you are carrying another license in your wallet other then your Drivers License what you are doing hurts the industry that supports your family. If one of my employees wanted to go out on their own I would wish them the best of luck and do what I could to help, I would hope that he or she gained enough experience from here to make them confident enough to think they can, I take that as a compliment to the training I provided them during their tenure here. Everyone needs to carve their own path, but always remember as big as this industry is , its very small and i can say without question of a doubt you will cross paths with the same people at some point.
There are laws and rules. Certain size jobs in certain city's are required to b union jobs. I couldn't bid on them or take them if I wanted. I'm not hurting my company
 

was thatguy

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There are laws and rules. Certain size jobs in certain city's are dictated by bigger thieves to b union jobs. I couldn't bid on them or take them if I wanted. I'm not hurting my company
Fixed it up a bit for you V!:thumbup:
 

BHC Vic

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Matter of fact my Forman are usually impressed that after 8 hours im willing to drive to another job site and keep working. Y would I take any unnecessary risks if i do fine with my paycheck and sidework. I don't need to open my own shop I may b making more now than if I were to do that "hey wife I'm going to empty savings and start my own company because guys on river daves say it's wrong for me to do unlicensed side work" lol
 

was thatguy

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Matter of fact my Forman are usually impressed that after 8 hours im willing to drive to another job site and keep working. Y would I take any unnecessary risks if i do fine with my paycheck and sidework. I don't need to open my own shop I may b making more now than if I were to do that "hey wife I'm going to empty savings and start my own company because guys on river daves say it's wrong for me to do unlicensed side work" lol
Before ever trying that you MUST stop the "text talk" spelling habits!:D
 

BHC Vic

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Before ever trying that you MUST stop the "text talk" spelling habits!:D
But I'm tap talking and that's the other thing. I'm good at building shit. Paper work talking to people office shit not so much. So already I'd have to hire people to help w that
 

DC-88

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Matter of fact my Forman are usually impressed that after 8 hours im willing to drive to another job site and keep working. Y would I take any unnecessary risks if i do fine with my paycheck and sidework. I don't need to open my own shop I may b making more now than if I were to do that "hey wife I'm going to empty savings and start my own company because guys on river daves say it's wrong for me to do unlicensed side work" lol
Out of the three best guys I trained as finish carpenters within my scopes of tradeswork, 2 worked for me for like 10 years and have their own decent little legit businesses going. My current lead guy is 10 years in , has those aspirations and he's a great guy but is pretty ADD which is holding him back. I do mostly GC stuff now still totally above board, but in our heyday I did real payroll on a lot of "Net" piecework amounts which I reported to my book keeper for each guy each week. As far as accounting goes it's a little harder to figure the labor burdens each week but it was a great motivator and created loyalty as all of my good guys are still friends to this day. In the slowdown of 09 I had a couple who I let go who milked the 99 weeks for a ton of money due to our payroll reporting from the previous years.
I'm sure its been beat to death here before but V, getting a 1099 for construction work in the capacity of an employee or unlicensed contractor is like a death sentence to the business of the guy who is handing those out if he's doing it a lot in Ca. , trust me. I would steer clear of that deal in the future if I was you. In regards to this post I just quoted, yes I see your mindset at this time and w your current situation but you can make a hell of a lot more $$ with a legit business on say 5 guys plus yourself than you can working 60 hrs a week as 1 guy, especially if you keep overhead as low as possible.. However, the 25 bucks and hour will start to sound like a LITTLE bit more to you as an employer when it costs $350 a day per man to pay it out legit LOL:)
 

BHC Vic

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Out of the three best guys I trained as finish carpenters within my scopes of tradeswork, 2 worked for me for like 10 years and have their own decent little legit businesses going. My current lead guy is 10 years in , has those aspirations and he's a great guy but is pretty ADD which is holding him back. I do mostly GC stuff now still totally above board, but in our heyday I did real payroll on a lot of "Net" piecework amounts which I reported to my book keeper for each guy each week. As far as accounting goes it's a little harder to figure the labor burdens each week but it was a great motivator and created loyalty as all of my good guys are still friends to this day. In the slowdown of 09 I had a couple who I let go who milked the 99 weeks for a ton of money due to our payroll reporting from the previous years.
I'm sure its been beat to death here before but V, getting a 1099 for construction work in the capacity of an employee or unlicensed contractor is like a death sentence to the business of the guy who is handing those out if he's doing it a lot in Ca. , trust me. I would steer clear of that deal in the future if I was you. In regards to this post I just quoted, yes I see your mindset at this time and w your current situation but you can make a hell of a lot more $$ with a legit business on say 5 guys plus yourself than you can working 60 hrs a week as 1 guy, especially if you keep overhead as low as possible.. However, the 25 bucks and hour will start to sound like a LITTLE bit more to you as am employer when it costs $350 a day per man to pay it out legit LOL:)
Thanks that's some good info
 

Bobby V

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There are laws and rules. Certain size jobs in certain city's are required to b union jobs. I couldn't bid on them or take them if I wanted. I'm not hurting my company
There called PLA's. Come on Vic don't you get the building trades newsletter every month. :rolleyes
 

Old Man Havasu

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Im talking about an employers that has demonstrated and acted upon a path of growth for the employee.

Does that employer after acting in good faith deserve so much as a discussion before having their investment leave with no opportunity to counter?

What Im hearing and reading here is that majority feel is everyman for himself, at every moment in time that there is, and there is no loyalty regardless.

Om ok with whatever peoples answer is, Im just curious to hear what people say and how they justify it.

UD
I always make an effort to talk to someone leaving my company if they are an asset.. Sometimes I can save them but I always learn something from the encounter. What kills me is hiring someone that just wants to use the benefits to have a child and burn FMLA and moves on.
 

SCBLLC

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Loyalty begets loyalty, So true.

When the economy started to tank, our pay was cut by 20%, our hours were cut by 50%. You want loyalty, stick it up your ---. If that's how you want to treat people in down times don't expect them to give you 100% in the good times, don't expect them to go above what you just did to them. That's what loyalty will get ya.
 

CoolCruzin

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Loyalty begets loyalty, So true.

When the economy started to tank, our pay was cut by 20%, our hours were cut by 50%. You want loyalty, stick it up your ---. If that's how you want to treat people in down times don't expect them to give you 100% in the good times, don't expect them to go above what you just did to them. That's what loyalty will get ya.
wow -............
You where lucky to even have a job if the company was hurting that hard .And the owner is lucky to just keep the business open.
 

was thatguy

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Loyalty begets loyalty, So true.

When the economy started to tank, our pay was cut by 20%, our hours were cut by 50%. You want loyalty, stick it up your ---. If that's how you want to treat people in down times don't expect them to give you 100% in the good times, don't expect them to go above what you just did to them. That's what loyalty will get ya.
Would you prefer being laid off? Sometimes employers have to reduce payroll to keep everyone working as best that they can...or should they just pay wages out of their savings?

I've had that happen to me and it lasted a full year before we started to build back up. In the mean time I was one of the LUCKY ones who kept working, while over 60 others just lost their jobs. ( I lost my fledgling Consultant operation completely, then got 50% rate reduction AND 40% work reduction)
By staying loyal through that hard time ('09 oil and gas crash), I came out of it on top with the clients that I stuck with.

You are correct, loyalty DOES beget loyalty...BOTH ways.
 

BHC Vic

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Another reason to work union where that shit doesn't happen
 

DrHW

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If one is more loyal than the other it's only a matter of time.
That's it right there.


Do not underestimate the importance of having respect for the employee in the workplace.

As an employer\supervisor you already know that you have more loyalty going toward the employee than you have coming back.

Many factors come into play with the actual job description, type of work, etc.

If the goals of the Company are being met by the associate and their personal goals and dreams are being met by the company then they have a mutually beneficial business relationship. If that changes on either side then the business relationship will change as well.
 

DrHW

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fuuuck.

Too bad you couldn't have sat down early and documented a succession plan so you didn't get hosed.

I trust little to none of what people tell me, and not much more of what they write.

Thanks for the post.

UD


You original post sounded like you wanted someone to agree with you that you were hosed. Then later you said something to the affect that you were sincerely interested.

This reply is in poor taste at best.
 

SCBLLC

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Would you prefer being laid off? Sometimes employers have to reduce payroll to keep everyone working as best that they can...or should they just pay wages out of their savings?

I've had that happen to me and it lasted a full year before we started to build back up. In the mean time I was one of the LUCKY ones who kept working, while over 60 others just lost their jobs. ( I lost my fledgling Consultant operation completely, then got 50% rate reduction AND 40% work reduction)
By staying loyal through that hard time ('09 oil and gas crash), I came out of it on top with the clients that I stuck with.

You are correct, loyalty DOES beget loyalty...BOTH ways.
Being laid off would have paid better. Nothing like getting a pay cut and seeing the owner driving a New Escalade, and then a few months later a new Silverado loaded with leather and the 6.2. And then a few months after that a New Crew cab GMC, loaded with the diesel. People with 17 years in have no respect for the company. Now it's $600.00 a month for insurance and he has a new hellcat in the parking lot. Screw loyalty, I'm calling in sick and going fishing.

Side note: One employee filed for unemployment because he only worked 10 hours one week, they threatened him, what kind of Man goes around threating people for something they have a right to do. One with no balls.
 

was thatguy

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Being laid off would have paid better. Nothing like getting a pay cut and seeing the owner driving a New Escalade, and then a few months later a new Silverado loaded with leather and the 6.2. And then a few months after that a New Crew cab GMC, loaded with the diesel. People with 17 years in have no respect for the company. Now it's $600.00 a month for insurance and he has a new hellcat in the parking lot. Screw loyalty, I'm calling in sick and going fishing.

Side note: One employee filed for unemployment because he only worked 10 hours one week, they threatened him, what kind of Man goes around threating people for something they have a right to do. One with no balls.
Well that is a little different. Sounds like a true blue asshole.
 

BHC Vic

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Well that is a little different. Sounds like a true blue asshole.
Funny sounds like a lot of non union contractors I know again that's y I appreciate the union and them keeping this SHIT from happening
 

CoolCruzin

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Being laid off would have paid better. Nothing like getting a pay cut and seeing the owner driving a New Escalade, and then a few months later a new Silverado loaded with leather and the 6.2. And then a few months after that a New Crew cab GMC, loaded with the diesel. People with 17 years in have no respect for the company. Now it's $600.00 a month for insurance and he has a new hellcat in the parking lot. Screw loyalty, I'm calling in sick and going fishing.

Side note: One employee filed for unemployment because he only worked 10 hours one week, they threatened him, what kind of Man goes around threating people for something they have a right to do. One with no balls.
Just could have been that the owners auto lease was up and was time get another auto. Just saying but could be a" true blue asshole".
 

BHC Vic

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Just could have been that the owners auto lease was up and was time get another auto. Just saying but could be a" true blue asshole".
Could b they are tax write off never heard of monthly leases though but I've also never leased a car
 

Singleton

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Now it's $600.00 a month for insurance and he has a new hellcat in the parking lot. Screw loyalty, I'm calling in sick and going fishing..
Health care premiums on average for companies is around 1200. The average in corporate America is around 400 for the employee and the company pays 800 a month per employee. Also self employed is more, I have my sisters (self employed small business owner) and her family on a plan that cost 2k a month.

If you don't like what you pay in health care, go start our own business then you can complain, but until then stop bitching that you pay 50% of your premium, it could be worse.
 

Uncle Dave

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You original post sounded like you wanted someone to agree with you that you were hosed. Then later you said something to the affect that you were sincerely interested.

This reply is in poor taste at best.

Why are you quoting my original when Ive followed on with 2 more clarifications and already copped to the fact I was too short with my original post?

Ill explain it again. I was too short in my answer and it skewed my meaning.

From the beginning I have looked for feedback - not to be "right". This is why Im not arguing with guys that say "fuck the company" Im just tallying who says what and chatting about why they feel that way.

I never said I was interested I said I was appreciative of the effort to type and write the post in my clarification of intent.

When the boss the said to him - "I thought Id be handing the keys to you someday" -( or close enough) it was too little too late and piss weak.


I don't trust what the boss says - he should have written his intentions down on a piece of paper if he were being honest.

That what I meant by a succession plan- if the boss were being honest this conversation would have turned into a sit down long before to document just where the keys go in 3-5-10 years.


It was the boss I didnt trust and thought didnt work in good faith. not the guy posting the experience.



After soo many long posts, Im am guilty of shortchanging the time to properly explain what I meant - hence the post didnt reflect my intention.

Hopefully after trying to explain this twice now, you know what my thought was, and can now like or dislike it for what I really meant.




UD
 
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Bobby V

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Another reason to work union where that shit doesn't happen
Funny sounds like a lot of non union contractors I know again that's y I appreciate the union and them keeping this SHIT from happening
What the hell you talking about. My hours were cut down to 32 hrs several times during the slow times. And some guys went to 24 hrs or got laid off. Its part of being in construction and the economy. Union has NOTHING to do with it. Our owners never went and bought high end cars though.
 

BHC Vic

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What the hell you talking about. My hours were cut down to 32 hrs several times during the slow times. And some guys went to 24 hrs or got laid off. Its part of being in construction and the economy. Union has NOTHING to do with it. Our owners never went and bought high end cars though.
Hours being cut is one thing. I've been cut to 32 hours but they never once touched my pay. Maybe we didn't take raised but never cut my pay and yea union contract has everything to do w it. Same as me getting overtime after 8 and Saturdays


That's where I'm loyal. My company gets slow I wait till they get going again. I could easily go to another shop w work but I enjoy working for my company and they treat me well. It's a two way street. My company knows I get offers so the super does his absolute best to always keep me busy. I jump a round a lot day on this job day on that job but I appreciate them keeping me busy
 

Bobby V

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Hours being cut is one thing. I've been cut to 32 hours but they never once touched my pay. Maybe we didn't take raised but never cut my pay
Ok got it. They never touched my pay either. Sorry I thought you were posting about the hours being cut. One thing they did do was put GPS on all of our trucks. They use this for pay roll. Big brother is watching. :yikes
 

was thatguy

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What the hell you talking about. My hours were cut down to 32 hrs several times during the slow times. And some guys went to 24 hrs or got laid off. Its part of being in construction and the economy. Union has NOTHING to do with it. Our owners never went and bought high end cars though.
Hours being cut is one thing. I've been cut to 32 hours but they never once touched my pay. Maybe we didn't take raised but never cut my pay and yea union contract has everything to do w it. Same as me getting overtime after 8 and Saturdays


That's where I'm loyal. My company gets slow I wait till they get going again. I could easily go to another shop w work but I enjoy working for my company and they treat me well.
Uh Oh!! Trouble within the brotherhood??:yikes
 

Singleton

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These 18 pages have renewed and cemented my faith in the commitment to never have employees again.
Cemented my faith to never join a union. While a union works well some some, I like to have the power to negotiate my own salary. If the company does not keep me engaged and I don't like my entire compensation package, I have the ability to look for another job.

Had a couple clients with union employees and my aunt was a union head for a large teachers union. The stories I heard from both shocked me and made me realize union employees have a much different approach then non-union. Biggest lessons, you can have good union employees and bad union employees, however the small percentage that is bad is what management remembers when the contract is up.
 

Bobby V

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Cemented my faith to never join a union. While a union works well some some, I like to have the power to negotiate my own salary. If the company does not keep me engaged and I don't like my entire compensation package, I have the ability to look for another job.

Had a couple clients with union employees and my aunt was a union head for a large teachers union. The stories I heard from both shocked me and made me realize union employees have a much different approach then non-union. Biggest lessons, you can have good union employees and bad union employees, however the small percentage that is bad is what management remembers when the contract is up.
I'm sure you know that there are a ton of different types of unions. I am in the fire sprinkler union. 32 years now. We do things different then the teachers union. Can't compare the two. Its like apples and oranges. The only common factor is that we both are "union".
 

Uncle Dave

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I'm sure you know that there are a ton of different types of unions. I am in the fire sprinkler union. 32 years now. We do things different then the teachers union. Can't compare the two. Its like apples and oranges. The only common factor is that we both are "union".
Having never joined one it seems to me that all of them want a pay in, but I can't really say.

Living outside of peoria as a kid I watched the Union that represented Caterpillar decide to strike and saw this choice decimate the local economy.

I remember talking to my dad about the final resolve and when we did the math- the employees would never recoup the losses.

Never made sense to me to join, and it seems from this thread little has changed.


UD
 

was thatguy

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Having never joined one it seems to me that all of them want a pay in, but I can't really say.

Living outside of peoria as a kid I watched the Union that represented Caterpillar decide to strike and saw this choice decimate the local economy.

I remember talking to my dad about the final resolve and when we did the math- the employees would never recoup the losses.

Never made sense to me to join, and it seems from this thread little has changed.


UD
It is a mistake to think that dues paying members are anything more than the source of income for said union.
Yes, better unions DO care for their members and it is in their interest to make the members loyal and happy.

BUT, unlike a business owner with the same goal, the union owns ONLY the members and their money, and whatever assets the union collect USING the members money.

Their "product" is the workers.
 

Singleton

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I'm sure you know that there are a ton of different types of unions. I am in the fire sprinkler union. 32 years now. We do things different then the teachers union. Can't compare the two. Its like apples and oranges. The only common factor is that we both are "union".
Maybe true, but in my opinion those government type unions (teachers, public works, etc), gives all unions a bad rap. Like I said, some are better then others, but a few bad apples kill the reputation for all.
 

Uncle Dave

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I get exposed a lot to their impact working in Hollywood.

Several years ago I went over to Technicolor and had to pass a Union line of knuckle draggers with sign protesting Technicolor using non Union Labor to build their facility.

I got to the chief a minute or two later and I was outside his office and he was on the phone with the Union Boss screaming at him.

Turns out that (ill try to remember this correctly) that they had to use different crews - one crew was responsible for the ceiling and the wall, the other crew the floor and everything up to the wall.

Because neither union new each other - each one called their respective boss and complained that the place was filed with non Union crews.

The hate crowd was dissipated in minutes.

But of course they intimidated and threatened clients that morning who never gave Tech a second chance - just went elsewhere - to non Union houses.


real smart.

UD
 

Bobby V

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Having never joined one it seems to me that all of them want a pay in, but I can't really say.

Living outside of peoria as a kid I watched the Union that represented Caterpillar decide to strike and saw this choice decimate the local economy.

I remember talking to my dad about the final resolve and when we did the math- the employees would never recoup the losses.

Never made sense to me to join, and it seems from this thread little has changed.


UD
Like I said before not every union is the same. My dad worked at GM for 35 years at a fair wage.

As far as never making sense to join. Thats your decision and I made mine 32 years ago.


As far as what Singleton said about not being able to negotiate your wage. In my union we can. The wage is a bottom base line of what we have negotiated with the companies. I get more bennies over scale.

I have been with my company since 82. I consider myself a company employee first and a union guy 2nd.
 

Bobby V

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Maybe true, but in my opinion those government type unions (teachers, public works, etc), gives all unions a bad rap. Like I said, some are better then others, but a few bad apples kill the reputation for all.
I 100% agree with you. :thumbup:
 

Uncle Dave

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Like I said before not every union is the same. My dad worked at GM for 35 years at a fair wage.

As far as never making sense to join. Thats your decision and I made mine 32 years ago.

My buddy who is a year older then me and in the same union just retired at 55. He gets about $3500 a month for his pension and had over 850K in his 401 type account. I am 54 and plan on staying on a few more years. Mine will be more then his. :D

As far as what Singleton said about not being able to negotiate your wage. In my union we can. The wage is a bottom base line of what we have negotiated with the companies. I get more bennies over scale.

I have been with my company since 82. I consider myself a company employee first and a union guy 2nd.

If it works for you thats great.

The behaviors Ive seen from the Unions Ive been exposed to have been ridiculous. This is a limited set of Unions for sure.

I get that not every one is the same and there are lots of guy that like being members.

UD
 

Singleton

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I have been with my company since 82. I consider myself a company employee first and a union guy 2nd.
I wish more folks thought that way.
The clients that had union issues, the union leadership did not think like you. Both clients filed BK, to void the contracts. When I have seen companies and unions work together, the end result is good for both.
 

Bobby V

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If it works for you thats great.

The behaviors Ive seen from the Unions Ive been exposed to have been ridiculous. This is a limited set of Unions for sure.

I get that not every one is the same and there are lots of guy that like being members.

UD
Not sure where you live. But IMO the building trades unions here in So Cal will stay strong. The grocery type unions will not.
 

Uncle Dave

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Not sure where you live. But IMO the building trades unions here in So Cal will stay strong. The grocery type unions will not.

I grew up outside of Peoria so I watched whatever that union was do its thing.

I live in So cal now.

I saw the strength of the building Unions at Technicolor and also saw the result of Union management paralyzed from the neck up.

I don't really know what the differences would be - but trust that a long standing Union guy such as yourself would know whats strong and whats weak.

I guess as with nearly everything it all comes down to good leadership- some places have it other don't. Some Unions have it, others don't.


UD
 

BHC Vic

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Just for the record my company owner is a big time on the committee and doesn't care much for the union.
 

Bobby V

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I grew up outside of Peoria so I watched whatever that union was do its thing.

I live in So cal now.

I saw the strength of the building Unions at Technicolor and also saw the result of Union management paralyzed from the neck up.

I don't really know what the differences would be - but trust that a long standing Union guy such as yourself would know whats strong and whats weak.

I guess as with nearly everything it all comes down to good leadership- some places have it other don't. Some Unions have it, others don't.


UD
Short answer. The building owners and building engineers care about who works in their high rises and commercial buildings. They don't care who bags their groceries. :)
 

Uncle Dave

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Short answer. The building owners and building engineers care about who works in their high rises and commercial buildings. They don't care who bags their groceries. :)
Makes complete sense.


UD
 
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