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Massive Power outages for NorCal

Discussion in 'RD's Lounge' started by highvoltagehands, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Xtrmwakeboarder

    Xtrmwakeboarder Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think anyone is saying it’s cheap and easy. I think people are saying we have paid, and currently pay, enough already to have competent people maintaining their power lines so we don’t lose property and lives in fires. As a result of the companies not doing this, we get to go without power because the utilities would rather bandaid a situation to limit liability than fix it. Maybe rates do need to increase... Have utilities been running at a loss? I don’t follow this close enough to know.
     
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  2. Crazyhippy

    Crazyhippy Haters gonna Hate

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    You could burn most of Iowa and do less financial damage than one block in certain areas of CA...



    Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  3. rrrr

    rrrr Well-Known Member

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    This gets tossed about by politicians and environmentalists like it can be done by next week. Ain't gonna happen. It would cost billions and take decades. We'll all be dead or drowned by then, MMGW is coming!
     
  4. Wizard29

    Wizard29 Really a 34 Eliminator

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    That assumption is a big part of the problem. I can't speak for other utilities, but I do know that SCE has not been found on any fire to have been out of compliance on required maintenance activities that, if performed, would have prevented the fire.

    The issue is not about the utilities not maintaining their equipment. It has everything to do with hazards that exist when existing equipment is energized in certain conditions that significantly lend themselves to fire.
     
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  5. Xtrmwakeboarder

    Xtrmwakeboarder Well-Known Member

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    Is it really an assumption when you have a member, who I believe is a lineman, explaining that PG&E pulled out 5,000 lineman that should have been maintaining the lines and basically told them to bandaid the immediate needs and push others to a later date?

    Are Santa Ana winds new? Are these new power lines in areas with trees? I sure as hell remember winds and power lines near trees/forests for the 35 years I’ve been alive...and yet, the utilities kept the power on.

    If this is a result of overpopulation in forested areas, are new power lines not built to withstand santa ana winds? Clearly the utilities think there is a risk of fire associated with having lines energized during a windy day. Is there another option as to why this is a risk besides not maintaining the area around the lines?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  6. Wizard29

    Wizard29 Really a 34 Eliminator

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    That's actually a really good question and the answer is more or less "yes to most".

    Whatever decision PGE made with the linemen I'm sure was in line with established standards for maintenance. Doing otherwise would be suicide for the company and personal suicide for whoever the decision makers are as they would end up in prison if things went south.

    I'm no global warming sucker, but the weather patterns have changed in recent years. Winds have been a little stronger. Winters have been a little wetter, which means more vegetation to dry out in summer and fall.

    Population is definitely a factor. There are more houses and consequently more power circuits now. Seems logical there would also be more equipment failures and resulting fires.

    In my opinion, perhaps the greatest factor is the political climate in which we all now reside. Much like a good portion of the public seems to have turned against law enforcement, that same public has turned on the utilities. Times were when there was a fire, the utility wasn't automatically responsible. However, in our new exceptionally litigious society, the focus turns to the deepest pockets and we see how that goes. As I said before, some tweaker can start a fire with his crack pipe in the vicinity of a power pole, flee the area without being seen, and who do you think is taking the heat (pun intended) for the fire? The fire originated near the pole and the circuits are down because the pole supporting them got burned...must've been something with those wires!

    In any case, to automatically make the assumption that the equipment isn't being maintained to standards isn't correct. The standards exist and the utilities must show the state on a regular basis those standards are being met or there are big consequences.
     
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  7. REVENGE 97

    REVENGE 97 Well-Known Member

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    State!
     
  8. bldrinker

    bldrinker Well-Known Member

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    I can only speak for what SCE does to prevent fires. They spent money on fire prevention before last’s years disasters but after seeing what happened to PG&E SCE is on a all out mission to take every step possible to install facilities that I’ll be very unlikely to start a fire. It’s going to cost the rate payers next go around for sure because they are spending massive amounts of money.
     
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  9. highvoltagehands

    highvoltagehands Laveycraft Nuera 2750

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    Here's where the PSPS Outages might happen.
    FireIndexToday.png FireIndexTomorrow.png Screen Shot 2019-10-09 at 2.27.12 AM.png
     
  10. Xtrmwakeboarder

    Xtrmwakeboarder Well-Known Member

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    Well I guess the maintenance standards are garbage and need to be updated, because turning off the power when it gets windy is ridiculous.

    People are turning against the utilities because we pay them to do a job 100% time. That job doesn’t end when it’s not sunny and clear. It’s not an easy job, but I’m pretty sure they have been making money this entire time. If they haven’t, charge me more and keep the lines clear and on when we have catastrophic 30mph wind gusts.
     
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  11. Xring01

    Xring01 Well-Known Member

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    so your saying you want an electricity bill higher than you mortgage?

    please ask me how I know....

    this is my industry.

    the cost of Undergound EHV cables will blow most people minds.

    I was part of the majority of the Las Vegas Undergound projects over the last 12 years. Huge $$$ NVEneergy did not pay for those projects, because there rate base would have gone up, costing all the other customers lots of money for the benefit of the casinos... thats a fact jack..

    so who paid???

    the casinos... yep they re imbursed NVE for the costs.

    If legislation was passed to underground California, i would no longer be on RDP, I would be on yatching the world.com with a huge smile on my face, next to Tiger Woods yatch.

    Costs to the consumer, is real, unless your gonna invent $$$ trees to pay for, its never gonna happen.
     
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  12. Xring01

    Xring01 Well-Known Member

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    PGE has gone Bankruptcy twice. So yes, they have ran at a loss.
     
  13. Singleton

    Singleton Well-Known Member

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    Not really. They have gone BK due to unpaid liabilities, most of those liabilities are fire related.
    It is real easy to make a ton of money but run the company at a loss.
     
  14. was thatguy

    was thatguy living in a cage of fear

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    After reading all this it seems there is no real solution?
    The only avenues are mitigation and which type of mitigation is feasible?

    Shutting down power during winds seems like the easiest immediate mitigation, while making system improvements at a pace that is economically doable.

    But like most things in CA, infrastructure, roads, reservoirs, dams, you name it, it seems like it’s still just building atop an obsolete, outdated original structure.
    What I mean is, regardless of consumer judgment, it’s unlikely any supplier is going to tear down their entire rural grids and rebuild underground or any other way.

    Pulling out or selling of the contract would likely be a better option, especially considering that CA wants to basically turn into a horse and buggy, full blown Amish type existence in the future.
     
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  15. DrunkenSailor

    DrunkenSailor Well-Known Member

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    I hate myself for this comment. It will surely draw scorn and it would only work in a perfect world which we are far from. Distribution utilities should be government owned or at the very least the exclusive service bs monopolies should end.

    If edison runs a tighter ship which results in lower rates i should have the choice to use them. Same with cable, phone, water, nat gas, etc...

    Allowing utility monopolies does not support a free market economy. If we are going to allow that why not just turn it over to the government. People in the midwest probably like the idea people.in california are saying "have you seen the roads?"
     
  16. Wizard29

    Wizard29 Really a 34 Eliminator

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    You say that now, but when you get that bill it'll be:

     
  17. Xtrmwakeboarder

    Xtrmwakeboarder Well-Known Member

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    No, I won’t. I’m not saying to bury the lines. I’m saying trim some trees... this isn’t rocket science and hasn’t been for a long time.

    Edit: This is assuming that these companies aren’t currently making money and therefore don’t have the budget to increase their maintenance spend.
     
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  18. RCDave

    RCDave Well-Known Member

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    It's easy for pge to be negligent. Just file bk every few years. The CA government will support it each time.

    Doing the same thing expecting different results. The definition of insanity
     
  19. Wizard29

    Wizard29 Really a 34 Eliminator

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    Assumptions once again. There's a lot more to it than just trimming some trees when hardening the infrastructure. For example, it was mentioned earlier that SCE is rolling out covered conductor (as opposed to bare wires like we have now). That's a great idea and would prevent the vast majority of fires if wires were to come down. But are you aware of all it entails?
     
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  20. hallett21

    hallett21 Well-Known Member

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    35-50k and you can get yourself off grid solar, backup generator, big propane tank, Tesla power wall battery and be your own utility.




    If PGE ceases to exist tomorrow someone will have to take over the current grid. The amount of money and man power to make the grid “perfect” would be insane. Shutting off power during high winds is the safest move.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Uncle Dave

    Uncle Dave Well-Known Member

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    What if you aren't in a fire hazard area but the lines you rely on are?


    Im starting the quotation process for this now.
    Ping my private email here on RDP and Ill give you the info.

    Thanks

    UD
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  22. Xtrmwakeboarder

    Xtrmwakeboarder Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm not, but good. If they don't want to trim trees then this is another option. Wind has been around for a long time, as have homes in forested areas. I pay my bill so SCE can figure out how to solve these "new" issues without turning off the lights.
     
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  23. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    Safe ? Sure, for the "Big Three" power companies involved. Hardly for the customers who will lose power, communications (Fewer land lines and forced to VOIP by the phone companies) and the internet for possibly several days. Nothing worse than facing the threat of fire and having no means of tracking it or communicating with others.
    I LOL when I read the SDG&E website giving a link to SDG&E outage and news updates --- No power, no cell service, no voip, how do we access these again ?
    Oh, easy, you just hunker down and wait and pray the sheriff shows up before the fire does. Or you can go to one of these listed community centers, hell, they claim to have room for 100 folks --- 100 ??

    This is clearly a CYA and politically motivated reaction to having been blamed and sued. The more hundreds of thousands of customer's affected, the bigger the public outcry.
    The end goal for the power companies being, government passing laws offering complete exoneration of all liabilities. Then watch the lights come back on, if not for all, certainly for most.

    I was born in 48', these SA winds have blown every fall and early winter since my birth --- climate change my ass. My house burned in the 07' Witchcreek fire, I was the only person in my neighborhood NOT TO SUE SDG&E, because I acknowledge there's unmitigated risk on their part regardless of how it's maintained. I also knew what's happening now would be the fallout from these lawsuits. And here we are.

    EDIT --- Oh, and do y'all really think the EPA is going to sit on their hands while a million or more customers install gas generators ?
    My son who's an EC recently tried to get a backup Genny installed in Santa Barbara, the city won't issue a permit --- claim they have no power outages so don't need any.

    I've got solar, in fact I produce enough to have only paid $ 38 last year and none the previous eight. Yet, when the power goes off, my panels shutdown, otherwise I could at least easily keep my frig from defrosting during the day and run portable lights or battery backup at night.

    This war is just beginning. I can ignore a lot of the BS that goes on in this state, but between the SA winds and this forced outage crap, that is becoming my motivation to bail.

    Sorry, had to vent --- :p I acknowledge I might be way off base, no matter, I just needed to write that anyway, lol :rolleyes: :p:p
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  24. NicPaus

    NicPaus Well-Known Member

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    Guys posting there power is off already. Said 5 days they were told. That back up generator DAB has is a good buy.
     
  25. Wizard29

    Wizard29 Really a 34 Eliminator

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    And they will. Your bill will just reflect the options that are chosen. The lower your bill, the less ideal the options are that get selected.

    Cheap
    100% safe
    100% reliable

    Pick two.
     
  26. Xring01

    Xring01 Well-Known Member

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    So what happened the first time
    Go back in time, recalll the great governor Mr. Gray Davis.... and a little company called ENRON..
    Remember de regulation... when PG&E, SCE and SDGE where loosing millions / day, sometimes per hour....

    So who took it in ass? The rate payers or the Utility's ????

    Look back at PG&E's stock history.. you will see it drop down to $6 or less... that was deregulation... billions of dollars lost.... did the rate payer re impburse PG&E, SCE or SDGE?

    You know that I know the answer to this...

    My advice, dont believe everything you read online... research the facts for yourself... and talk to people who are experts in there field, before you make up your mind on any issues.

    The reason why PG&E went bankrupt after the recent fires, was to show good faith in paying up money they thought they might owe... The moment the filed BK, the surrended all the
    money in there holding accounts. If my memory is correct it s $16Billion... Yes they lost that $$$, didnt fight the courts or public opinion.... paid up....

    Got to work to try and correct all the problems they had, like paying employees to fix problems, with no money in the bank, so they can keep the lights on for there customers.

    I am the wrong person to challenge on this stuff.. I have lived it for the last 23 years...

    I do not work for the Utilitys, never have, probably never will... I work as an equipment supplier to them, which is why I know about this stuff.

    I am literally amazed at how little the general public knows about this industry.

    IF you want true reliable power, get all the politicians out of the Electricity Markets. Let the professional Engineers do there job. The rates will go down, and reliability will go up. The more the politicians get involved, the higher the costs, and the lower the reliability...

    Please ask me how I know, go back to the prior threads on this subject about 6 months ago... look at what I posted, and compare that to whats happening today.

    The choice the utility is in... Get sued for cutting off the power, or get sued for starting a fire... regardless your getting sued....

    Thats the position they have been put in... How is that a fair business model?
    What happens to there ROI, when the cut power. how much money have they lost in that time frame...

    Bigger question... what is the financial penalty for it??? Google Saifi and Maifi minutes.. get a better understanding of that..

    I can go on for hours...

    Trust me... every person I work with at the Utilitys are great people, and thier only goal in life is to deliver safe reliable power to there customers.

    Before you bash them, get to know the true story!
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  27. RitcheyRch

    RitcheyRch Currently Boat-Less

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    While your house is ransacked from looters


     
  28. Sleek-Jet

    Sleek-Jet Well-Known Member

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    I just sit back and smile at these threads. There are only two times the majority of people think about electric utilities, 1) when the bill arrives 2) when the lights don't work.
     
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  29. Xring01

    Xring01 Well-Known Member

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    Think about the cost it takes to install a cell tower... Then that service can be wireless to the customer. Easy math... number of towers, number of potential customers..

    Electricity is not wireless. it requires a physical cable to the end customer to work.
    If your theory played out... 10 companys are competiting for every customer in CA. the 10 power lines to everyones house... wait, that means every road/ rite of way would have to get dug up 10 times. Then you would have to have 10 times the power plants, 10x the transmission lines, 10 times the substations, 10 times the engineers, 10 times the meters, 10 times the service techs... damn I hope you get your way, cause you guys have me dreaming about my future yatch now.....

    See it adds up fast, which is why it will never happen. No company would put themselves at that kind of financial risk with such little return on that investment.

    The company that owns the wire to the house today, will most likely be the company that owns the wires to the house tomorrow. Because the costs are just to high to run another line.

    Have utilitys been sold off, yes, but that didnt result in multiple utilitys fighting for the same customers....
     
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  30. LargeOrangeFont

    LargeOrangeFont Steers With Throttle

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    That is why it is called a utility, not a luxury. The government gave these companies a monopoly to provide an uninterrupted service, and all they did was pay off the government to look the other way while they take profits.
     
  31. paradise

    paradise Spooner

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    Already bought it, sorry it’s off the market. :)
     
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  32. RCDave

    RCDave Well-Known Member

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    And pad their union pensions.....
     
  33. jeteater1

    jeteater1 Jet boats suck

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    No winds yet down in Aguanga
     
  34. Willie B

    Willie B aberrant member

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    ... Off the grid Solar works just fine for me at Lake Oroville...
     
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  35. Reaper1

    Reaper1 Well-Known Member

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    Supposed to take the wife to Napa this weekend and meet up with friends. Looks like plans could change. o_O
     
  36. Sleek-Jet

    Sleek-Jet Well-Known Member

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    If it was so easy, the wife and kids would be doing it.
     
  37. King295

    King295 Well-Known Member

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    The pool of dead beat voters in California will be so happy about this. Not only will they be saving the forest from its unnecessary fires they will also be reducing the harmful effects to our air quality from said fires.

    And last but absolutely not least, they wont have to work! I don't know too many offices/companies equipped to operate during an extended outage.
     
  38. TCHB

    TCHB Well-Known Member

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    If someone’s tree causes your outage let them pay for it. I get real quick people would keep trees trimmed. Nobody is guarantee 100% no service outage. If you want it you will have got buy a generator and make sure it is ready if needed.
     
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  39. LargeOrangeFont

    LargeOrangeFont Steers With Throttle

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    They can’t flip on a light switch?

    If it was so hard why do we allow people to live in remote areas, and allow the population to grow?

    No one said it was easy, they were handed a monopoly to enable them to manage these problems. They have failed repeatedly.

    The solution is very simple. Manage and maintain the grid, or manage and maintain the population. Just choose the 3rd world dictatorship you’d like to live in. The reason this situation even exists is 100% due to poor government policies and poor regulatory practices.
     
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  40. LargeOrangeFont

    LargeOrangeFont Steers With Throttle

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    In the end this is just a marketing ploy scare tactic to sell solar and back up batteries.
     
  41. Taboma

    Taboma Well-Known Member

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    That's no shit right there and a very good point.
    During the 07' fire we had sheriffs prevent us from returning home and saving our cat after we dropped off a car at the mall parking lot.
    BUT, after the fire burned ours and 13 other homes in our neighborhood, there was ZERO LEO protection from looters. So we residents set up our own check point, verifying ID's and we established roaming ARMED security patrols.
     
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  42. Uncle Dave

    Uncle Dave Well-Known Member

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    Whose trees caused the fires last year?

    Home wise I have 3 gensets - and a grip of fuel - I can last a while.
    My business has no such provisions.

    UD
     
  43. TCHB

    TCHB Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you have gen sets and fuel. The last thing I want is more stuff to maintain and test. If you need 100% back up power do like a lot of business owners do. They have a generator and fuel ready to power flowing and some of them have two back up generators. They even have service contracts for the maintenance and testing.
     
  44. LargeOrangeFont

    LargeOrangeFont Steers With Throttle

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    You have to have all of that for mission critical business application, or even life dependent applications/businesses. Even then something will screw you unless you actually test your power fail over plans.
     
  45. Uncle Dave

    Uncle Dave Well-Known Member

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    The buildings need isolation xfer switches installed before we can plug anything into them.

    My house has one, but Im from the old school and prep for problems.

    Like I said uptime was basically 99.99% prior to this event.

    It only took once to get the company to spend the money.

    UD
     
  46. Carlson-jet

    Carlson-jet Well-Known Member

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    Hows the weather? :D
     
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  47. Headless hula

    Headless hula Well-Known Member

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    Sounds windy.:eek:


    :D
     
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  48. YumaRivernaut

    YumaRivernaut Well-Known Member

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    Tesla did it back at the turn of the last century. But hey, he was a kook and weirdo according to those who re-wrote him out of history and stole his ideas. Move along now, nothing to see here. ;)
    Edit: No, not the real life kook, weirdo, fraud Elon Musk. He will forever rot in hell for co-opting a real humanitarian genius's name. Curse be upon him.:mad:
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  49. RitcheyRch

    RitcheyRch Currently Boat-Less

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    Should be open hunting season on looters.


     
  50. Go-Fly

    Go-Fly Where Are My Shoes?

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    Mar 2, 2010
    This was talked about and planned for, 40 years ago. The money for maintenance went to managers and stock holders. I was there and pushed back along with almost every other employee. Anytime you delay maintenance in your car, boat, homes, schools, roads, utilities and what ever, it comes back and bites you in the ass. There's not one working man here that can't tell you in detail what the outcome will be.
     

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