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Money; So They Say | Sunday Morning Musing

Sportin' Wood

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Drinking a nice cup of Montana Coffee Traders, Montana Blend this fine Sunday morning watching the sunrise over the Mission Mountains, I was pondering the flow of Money into the local economy. Coffee produced locally by a small business FWIW.

I was thinking how each transaction depreciates the value of a dollar through the collection of a tax. I was thinking of how money earned in one place and spent in another transfers wealth. I was thinking about how giving money to large corporations makes them stronger and small business weaker. Do large global corporations care about America? Do they only care about Profit?

Now this might not be the kind of thing you would consider on a Sunday morning if you live in the big city, but in Rural America, I tend to think it can make an impact.

You see we (me and the wife) are blessed to be able to make our money outside our community. However, if we were dependent on the local economy, we might not be financially stable. Two of our local primary means of pulling money from outside the local economy are forestry and mining. We (Montana Citizens) extract natural resources from the earth and sell them to a party outside the local region and trade for money that is spent in the local economy on things like food, produced locally on farms and ranches. Services, medical treatment etc.

Palladium is a precious metal we mine here in Montana. Last week they announced that 700 miners are getting laid off due to falling prices.
https://dailymontanan.com/2024/09/12/sibanye-stillwater-plans-to-lay-off-700-montana-mining-workers/

My neighbors are loggers, one of them stopped by last week and told me he was shutting down operations, due to the difficulty in making a profitable business of logging in the current climate. Yet the forest will burn uncontrollably and new housing prices are through the roof. We import our plywood from Canada BTW and two local lumber mills have closed down in the last year in Montana. Montana is suffering a housing crisis with almost no affordable housing built and a massive shortage.
https://montanafreepress.org/2024/0...ry-but-officials-say-demand-for-wood-remains/

So here I am thinking about how the money flows in the economy, the depreciation of the dollar through taxes, how rural America is getting knee capped through regulations as the government limits their ability to produce value locally pulling money into the local economy, and how each of us contributes to this flow of money. Then I start thinking bigger, globally. Should I give my Money to China, Mexico, Canada?

Is it worth saving a couple bucks on goods to buy them on Amazon, or at the big box store? What is the impact I can make? What if we all started thinking about the flow of money and not just our own personal materialistic desire? Why is it a good investment for dark money to influence local politics? What happens if I pull money from the global economy as a remote worker and spend my money exclusively local? What role can remote workforce's play in the balance of power? Why is there a big push to pull workers back into the office? Why give money to the media for an ad spend if you hate them?

If I buy goods and services from FB Marketplace for cash locally outside "The System" Am I making a positive impact on the local economy? When I take advantage of a 3% discount for paying cash at the local diner, paying the tip in cash, am I making a positive contribution to the local economy? Did I really save any money buying online when I factor in shipping costs? Can I keep the local hardware store in business, or the local mercantile in business by ordering from them? Is my purchase of local beef and produce impacting the locals?

Yesterday we made a Costco trip to the big city. They had giant Pumpkin Pies on sale for $5.99. We asked ourselves how do they sell a pie for $6 bucks? The wife said the quality of the store bought Pumpkin pies has diminished over the years as they substituted less quality ingredients. Those pies could be a metaphor for all goods, especially food. How many of your favorite foods have changed? They have changed them slowly, but they have changed. You can see it when you compare pictures of people from the 70's to pictures of people now.

I'm not sure where all this Musing leads, but I thought I would share my Sunday morning thoughts and see if it is worth your time to consider.

Where does your money go? I'm thinking hard about where mine goes this Sunday Morning.

I encourage your debate. Thanks for your time.
 
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samsah33

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Dang, sitting here sipping my Costco Brown procrastinating on my Sunday honey-do list and feeling compelled to respond...!

Just because items like an apple pie decrease, it doesn't necessarily mean a decrease in quality. Could be economies of scale, could be technological advances making the costs of inputs cheaper. Consider TVs - my first flat TV was an LED (never bought a plasma), and it was a 65" 720(p? i?) from Sony and I paid $3,500 for it back in the day... Now I can get a 1080 or even a 4k in a larger size larger at Wally's for a fraction of that cost. Doesn't mean they're worse TVs, just that things have changed...

But I get that your post isn't about apple pies, above is just some food for thought... In terms of keeping cash in the local economy, I do try to purchase locally when possible. Now that doesn't mean that I purchase locally-made goods, but I will spend an extra couple bucks to purchase from a local store instead of online if and when possible and if the price difference doesn't make the local purchase impractical.

Example is that I mess around on guitar and I can get plenty of cheap guitar stuff on Amazon, but I'll spend the extra couple bucks to get it from my local Guitar Center. Granted, it's usually just cheap Chinese crap to begin with either way, but I figure it's worth the extra couple $s to support a local store and keep local employees employed and keep at least a portion of my cash in the local economy. It's not just a benevolent endeavor on my part because I also get something out of the deal - it's a cool store to browse when the wife is TJ Maxx or DSW, plus sometimes I get some advice from the employees, so it's a win-win in my book to keep support the store. I would be bummed if the store closed down...
 

DILLIGAF

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Drinking a nice cup of Montana Coffee Traders, Montana Blend this fine Sunday morning watching the sunrise over the Mission Mountains, I was pondering the flow of Money into the local economy. Coffee produced locally by a small business FWIW.

I was thinking how each transaction depreciates the value of a dollar through the collection of a tax. I was thinking of how money earned in one place and spent in another transfers wealth. I was thinking about how giving money to large corporations makes them stronger and small business weaker. Do large global corporations care about America? Do they only care about Profit?

Now this might not be the kind of thing you would consider on a Sunday morning if you live in the big city, but in Rural America, I tend to think it can make an impact.

You see we (me and the wife) are blessed to be able to make our money outside our community. However, if we were dependent on the local economy, we might not be financially stable. Two of our local primary means of pulling money from outside the local economy are forestry and mining. We (Montana Citizens) extract natural resources from the earth and sell them to a party outside the local region and trade for money that is spent in the local economy on things like food, produced locally on farms and ranches. Services, medical treatment etc.

Palladium is a precious metal we mine here in Montana. Last week they announced that 700 miners are getting laid off due to falling prices.
https://dailymontanan.com/2024/09/12/sibanye-stillwater-plans-to-lay-off-700-montana-mining-workers/

My neighbors are loggers, one of them stopped by last week and told me he was shutting down operations, due to the difficulty in making a profitable business of logging in the current climate. Yet the forest will burn uncontrollably and new housing prices are through the roof. We import our plywood from Canada BTW and two local lumber mills have closed down in the last year in Montana. Montana is suffering a housing crisis with almost no affordable housing built and a massive shortage.
https://montanafreepress.org/2024/0...ry-but-officials-say-demand-for-wood-remains/

So here I am thinking about how the money flows in the economy, the depreciation of the dollar through taxes, how rural America is getting knee capped through regulations as the government limits their ability to produce value locally pulling money into the local economy, and how each of us contributes to this flow of money. Then I start thinking bigger, globally. Should I give my Money to China, Mexico, Canada?

Is it worth saving a couple bucks on goods to buy them on Amazon, or at the big box store? What is the impact I can make? What if we all started thinking about the flow of money and not just our own personal materialistic desire? Why is it a good investment for dark money to influence local politics? What happens if I pull money from the global economy as a remote worker and spend my money exclusively local? What role can remote workforce's play in the balance of power? Why is there a big push to pull workers back into the office? Why give money to the media for an ad spend if you hate them?

If I buy goods and services from FB Marketplace for cash locally outside "The System" Am I making a positive impact on the local economy? When I take advantage of a 3% discount for paying cash at the local diner, paying the tip in cash, am I making a positive contribution to the local economy? Did I really save any money buying online when I factor in shipping costs? Can I keep the local hardware store in business, or the local mercantile in business by ordering from them? Is my purchase of local beef and produce impacting the locals?

Yesterday we made a Costco trip to the big city. They had giant Pumpkin Pies on sale for $5.99. We asked ourselves how do they sell a pie for $6 bucks? The wife said the quality of the store bought Pumpkin pies has diminished over the years as they substituted less quality ingredients. Those pies could be a metaphor for all goods, especially food. How many of your favorite foods have changed? They have changed them slowly, but they have changed. You can see it when you compare pictures of people from the 70's to pictures of people now.

I'm not sure where all this Musing leads, but I thought I would share my Sunday morning thoughts and see if it is worth your time to consider.

Where does your money go? I'm thinking hard about where mine goes this Sunday Morning.

I encourage your debate. Thanks for your time.
That coffee is too strong for you Jeff.....lol DO NOT have a second cup :)
 

BingerFang

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$6 pie is due to automation. We financed the equipment for the company that manufactures those special 12” pies for Costco, they are here in SoCal and have impressive operations.
 

monkeyswrench

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It's Sunday morning, and watching the sunrise with the knowledge you don't have to go to work should be a less strenuous event. Big business had been pushing out the smaller owners for many years. I remember growing up, seeing dedicated stores for vacuums, televisions and such. Repairs and sales both. The people as a whole have changed, and those items are now "disposable". That same attitude has made it's way through most every part of our lives. Convenience is more important in busy lives. Work harder to pay for more stuff. Since we work more, we have less time, and need the parts to arrive in our specific windows.

Regulation has stifled our local growth in many areas. Mines for instance, need immense amounts of fuel, mills need massive energy as well. When it becomes less expensive for another country to manufacture anything, and ship it across the sea, we lose a large part of our own independence and a part of our livelihood. The regulations are a mult-pronged attack, hitting the consumer and suppliers in many ways. We as consumers have also pushed it along for years as we search for the best price and convenience.

I'm going to have another cup of coffee...from a big red canister, bought from a big box store :confused:
 

Andy B.

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It's Sunday morning, and watching the sunrise with the knowledge you don't have to go to work should be a less strenuous event. Big business had been pushing out the smaller owners for many years. I remember growing up, seeing dedicated stores for vacuums, televisions and such. Repairs and sales both. The people as a whole have changed, and those items are now "disposable". That same attitude has made it's way through most every part of our lives. Convenience is more important in busy lives. Work harder to pay for more stuff. Since we work more, we have less time, and need the parts to arrive in our specific windows.

Regulation has stifled our local growth in many areas. Mines for instance, need immense amounts of fuel, mills need massive energy as well. When it becomes less expensive for another country to manufacture anything, and ship it across the sea, we lose a large part of our own independence and a part of our livelihood. The regulations are a mult-pronged attack, hitting the consumer and suppliers in many ways. We as consumers have also pushed it along for years as we search for the best price and convenience.

I'm going to have another cup of coffee...from a big red canister, bought from a big box store :confused:
Fed regulations kill logging, mining, drilling,etc. Hope and pray Trump gets in because he will roll them back. The administration now has been regulating them to death so everything goes green and you can see how that is working out!!!
I haven't got to say this in awhile but fuck the libs,dems and rhinos 😡😡
 
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HNL2LHC

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Great writing Jeff. I have been thinking about this often these days. Especially since Hawaii shut everything down for the scamdemic. It crushed the mom and pops. There is a manapuna shop in downtown that was my go to line out the door for years or rather generations. They never opened up after everyone was mandated to stay home. But that is whole other thread. I try not to buy big ticket items in the islands and rather bring them in to keep Hawaii from getting my $$$$.

I think about where and how I spend my money often. The challenge is that sometimes it is hard to find quality goods in a small town. That is what I find in Havasu and I assume the same for you since you went to “the big city” for shopping. I also find that, at my age and not many years left possibly, I’d like to have nicer things in my life. Hell we worked for 30 years we have to enjoy at some point.

I’d like to see the US become stronger in producing goods but those in change don’t want to see happen. That is why we must get in and force a change in the system. Personally I think that we are coming to the point that those in charge will be the ones that force our hand. 👍
 

bilz

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I'm sitting here looking at my American made travel trailer, thinking about all I need to fix or re do. Would a chinese one be better?
 

DILLIGAF

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The coffee is not the problem Tom. I just think too much. It's a bit of a curse actually.
I know Jeff.....just having fun with ya. I know you are a deep thinker.

Used to love going on my back patio in Cave Creek watching the sun come up with a nice cup of coffee. Most of what I would think about was my son and grandsons and how they were doing. Pup sitting right next to me in the quiet.
 

Sportin' Wood

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I was thinking it was the gummies...

Do you think he bought them locally? Or online?

🤔😁
If Jeff partakes in that and I doubt that he does it would be locally sourced ;)
I don't. I would likely grow my own or source local if I did. I'm not against it, but it's not my bag. I don't trust what's in that stuff.
I know Jeff.....just having fun with ya. I know you are a deep thinker.

Used to love going on my back patio in Cave Creek watching the sun come up with a nice cup of coffee. Most of what I would think about was my son and grandsons and how they were doing. Pup sitting right next to me in the quiet.
I'm trying to learn to enjoy quiet. That contributes to my pondering life and the questions I ask myself. It may seem simple to sit in silence, but seldom do we not have background noise. I've started driving without the radio on some trips a few years ago, now I try and leave it off when I'm working in the shop. It takes a little work for me to not have the radio as a distraction.
 

DILLIGAF

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I don't. I would likely grow my own or source local if I did. I'm not against it, but it's not my bag. I don't trust what's in that stuff.

I'm trying to learn to enjoy quiet. That contributes to my pondering life and the questions I ask myself. It may seem simple to sit in silence, but seldom do we not have background noise. I've started driving without the radio on some trips a few years ago, now I try and leave it off when I'm working in the shop. It takes a little work for me to not have the radio as a distraction.
For me 40 years of non stop thinking. People claimed I made hasty decisions but they were played over in my mind over and over and over thru every conceivable choice and outcome. When I made my choice I stuck with it.

Today I can get to a point where I can sit in silence and enjoy the simple pleasures of a good cup of coffee without a bunch of noise in my head. It took me years to get to that point. I do self reflect a lot in those moments but usually not to heavy of a content if that makes sense.

One of these days you will be able to just be. Not trying to sound corny but just be on the patio, enjoy that cup of coffee in silence and amazement of how special it is to see another sunrise.
 

Sportin' Wood

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For me 40 years of non stop thinking. People claimed I made hasty decisions but they were played over in my mind over and over and over thru every conceivable choice and outcome. When I made my choice I stuck with it.

Today I can get to a point where I can sit in silence and enjoy the simple pleasures of a good cup of coffee without a bunch of noise in my head. It took me years to get to that point. I do self reflect a lot in those moments but usually not to heavy of a content if that makes sense.

One of these days you will be able to just be. Not trying to sound corny but just be on the patio, enjoy that cup of coffee in silence and amazement of how special it is to see another sunrise.
I believe you Tom, I hope what I hear is true in regards to learning to be present in the moment.
 

was thatguy

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IMG_5612.jpeg
 

TimeBandit

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So coffee leads to the ponderance of high prices?

"Affordable housing" is my pet peeve buzzword of the decade.

Who exactly is willing to cut costs/profits/prices to make that happen?

Landowners? Labor? Materials? Permits? Banks?

And how much of a "cut" will it take to make things "affordable"

Or is a $200k minimum wage the answer?
 

monkeyswrench

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So coffee leads to the ponderance of high prices?

"Affordable housing" is my pet peeve buzzword of the decade.

Who exactly is willing to cut costs/profits/prices to make that happen?

Landowners? Labor? Materials? Permits? Banks?

And how much of a "cut" will it take to make things "affordable"

Or is a $200k minimum wage the answer?
When I see the massive apartment buildings in China, that's where I think they want to put us. State owned housing, here's your voucher.
 

angiebaby

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$6 pie is due to automation. We financed the equipment for the company that manufactures those special 12” pies for Costco, they are here in SoCal and have impressive operations.

I disagree. That could account for their initial entry into the $6 pumpkin pie market years ago. However, the pie is nowhere near as good as it was then. My mom has always made an excellent pumpkin pie. All of her pies are incredible. She uses canned pumpkin, evaporated milk, eggs, sugar, and traditional spices. Very creamy custard pie. When I worked in a grocery store (Stater Bros), I noticed the pies we sold from the bakery looked different than my mom's and had a different texture and taste (employees would bring them to our staff potlucks upstairs). They were almost opaque, not quite solid, not creamy. I looked at the ingredients. Similar to my mom's, but more water than milk. Bingo. No wonder they weren't as creamy.

A friend of mine brought a Costco pie to the desert one year at Thanksgiving (probably around 2005) and it was, seriously, just as good as my mom's. I thought, "Why the heck would I make it when this huge pie tastes just like mom's and is only $6 with no work?" Finally, I talked her into just buying the Costco ones because she agreed, they were just as good. FFWD to the pandemic, or soon before, I'm not sure when exactly, but the Costco pie was a disappointment. It has that same opaque look that the crappy Stater Bros ones did 30 years ago. Guess what? Here are the ingredients:

Screen Shot 2024-10-13 at 11.05.37 AM.png


There is more water than eggs, more water than flour, or shortening. There is more crust than milk, and the milk is nonfat. So, without having the old ingredient list in front of me, I can make my assumptions based on this information as to why the pies are no longer the quality that they used to be, yet remained the same price. Something has to give, and I don't think it is all improved automation, but that could be a contributing factor. However, it's been $6 for nearly 20 years.

Loss, leader perhaps, but regardless, the quality is not to my standard, and mom and I have gone back to making our own, probably for less than $6, natural fat, not shortening, no TBHQ (whatever that is), no seed oils or corn syrup.
 

Sportin' Wood

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So coffee leads to the ponderance of high prices?

"Affordable housing" is my pet peeve buzzword of the decade.

Who exactly is willing to cut costs/profits/prices to make that happen?

Landowners? Labor? Materials? Permits? Banks?

And how much of a "cut" will it take to make things "affordable"

Or is a $200k minimum wage the answer?
I've tossed around some ideas on this forum already, they were quickly associated with being a liberal. LOL

We could start by investing in our veterans program and make it stronger. Lock in a significantly lower rate. If we follow that up with some requirements for ownership associated with keeping foreign investments out, those seem a good start. If your not a citizen you don't get to purchase Real Estate. Maybe make corporate investment in single family homes less attractive.

The next community over from us is so hard up for teachers, the town built housing so they could attract some teachers. I think they built them in like 60 days. No BS permits, the locals all chipped in. Nice family housing, that was affordable to build. Socialist, but it was what they needed to do to get some people to teach their kids.
 

monkeyswrench

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I've tossed around some ideas on this forum already, they were quickly associated with being a liberal. LOL

We could start by investing in our veterans program and make it stronger. Lock in a significantly lower rate. If we follow that up with some requirements for ownership associated with keeping foreign investments out, those seem a good start. If your not a citizen you don't get to purchase Real Estate. Maybe make corporate investment in single family homes less attractive.

The next community over from us is so hard up for teachers, the town built housing so they could attract some teachers. I think they built them in like 60 days. No BS permits, the locals all chipped in. Nice family housing, that was affordable to build. Socialist, but it was what they needed to do to get some people to teach their kids.
I thought most countries require citizenship to own property...but for some reason ours doesn't. It would be interesting to see how much foreign money owns areas where prices are extremely high, as well as the price increases over time.
 

rivermobster

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I often ponder how may things in our life are a like a Ponzi scheme that exist because we are simply dumb ass sheep.

I'm going with, pretty much everything.

We are programed from birth...

"What do you wanna be when you grow up little Johnny? "

Didn't we all hear that as kids?

" Get a good job, with a good pension, and retire someday. "

Fall inline and become one with The Borg.

Why didn't anyone tell me this, when I was a kid??

1-IX09faEl5OFMurvD2jDdZA.jpeg
 

Rajobigguy

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I disagree. That could account for their initial entry into the $6 pumpkin pie market years ago. However, the pie is nowhere near as good as it was then. My mom has always made an excellent pumpkin pie. All of her pies are incredible. She uses canned pumpkin, evaporated milk, eggs, sugar, and traditional spices. Very creamy custard pie. When I worked in a grocery store (Stater Bros), I noticed the pies we sold from the bakery looked different than my mom's and had a different texture and taste (employees would bring them to our staff potlucks upstairs). They were almost opaque, not quite solid, not creamy. I looked at the ingredients. Similar to my mom's, but more water than milk. Bingo. No wonder they weren't as creamy.

A friend of mine brought a Costco pie to the desert one year at Thanksgiving (probably around 2005) and it was, seriously, just as good as my mom's. I thought, "Why the heck would I make it when this huge pie tastes just like mom's and is only $6 with no work?" Finally, I talked her into just buying the Costco ones because she agreed, they were just as good. FFWD to the pandemic, or soon before, I'm not sure when exactly, but the Costco pie was a disappointment. It has that same opaque look that the crappy Stater Bros ones did 30 years ago. Guess what? Here are the ingredients:

View attachment 1438948

There is more water than eggs, more water than flour, or shortening. There is more crust than milk, and the milk is nonfat. So, without having the old ingredient list in front of me, I can make my assumptions based on this information as to why the pies are no longer the quality that they used to be, yet remained the same price. Something has to give, and I don't think it is all improved automation, but that could be a contributing factor. However, it's been $6 for nearly 20 years.

Loss, leader perhaps, but regardless, the quality is not to my standard, and mom and I have gone back to making our own, probably for less than $6, natural fat, not shortening, no TBHQ (whatever that is), no seed oils or corn syrup.
Angie if you and SW are in town (Havasu) during the holidays, drop by and I’ll feed you some of the best pumpkin pie you’ve ever had. It’s about 2.5” thick, rich,stout and creamy.

IMG_0867.jpeg
 

Mandelon

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The City of Los Angeles built some apartments for homeless folks. I think they cost over $500,000 for each one bedroom apartment with the great bargaining power and economies of scale the City has. LOL 🤪
 
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