Muscle cars 60,s vs today’s

[dribble]

When I bought this car in 1994 it had 46,000 miles on it with original paint and interior. It still had the original mufflers and tailpipes. When I sold it to a close friend in 2011 it had 49,000 miles on it. Today it has about 52,000 miles and is still in 100% original condition with the original black and yellow plates and plate frames from Balestra Pontiac in Redwood City. Ram Air III 4spd, 355 posi. I have right of first refusal on it but I know it’s worth in the 100K range now.

 

[Not So Fast]

This got me in a lot of trouble, A LOT

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

3600 stall, and 15mpg...these are mythical numbers, theoretical math in comparison to my old shit boxes. That is the big draw for me to "modern" tech.

But...

A 300hp, 4spd shitbox with a buggy spring front suspension and drag slicks?
It will not do much against a modern "muscle car", but it has to be more fun than doing a line of blow off a stripper's back while pulling her ponytail like a bareback rodeo star!

Driving a slow car fast is almost always more fun than driving a fast car fast.

 

[Bigbore500r]

You running a Holley in that or HP Tooners? Looks great.

HP tuners, the ecm / TCM are all GM. E38 / T42 with a stand alone harness.

The Holley stuff is cool, but from a reliability standpoint, nothing can touch running the GM stuff. Wanted to build it to drive anywhere, anytime and be able to fix it with over the counter parts if needed.

 

[Bigbore500r]

3600 stall, and 15mpg...these are mythical numbers, theoretical math in comparison to my old shit boxes. That is the big draw for me to "modern" tech.

But...

A 300hp, 4spd shitbox with a buggy spring front suspension and drag slicks?
It will not do much against a modern "muscle car", but it has to be more fun than doing a line of blow off a stripper's back while pulling her ponytail like a bareback rodeo star!

Keeping the MPG around town with that size stall has mostly to due with the lockup converter. Around town, under 50mph, i don't use overdrive and the converter is set to lock up in 3rd under light throttle, at 40mph or above. Overdrive is set to lock the converter at 47mph or above.

 

[spectras only]

what ever magic was done to the car, I'd love to have that, car today as a sleeper.1965 Pontiac 2+2 0-60 in 3.9

Classic Car & Driver Comparison: 1965 Pontiac 2+2 Against Ferrari 2+2 – 0-60 in 3.9 For The Pontiac? Sure!

Car and Driver really raised its profile (and notoriety) with its comparison of a Pontiac GTO against a Ferrari GTO. The Pontiac was insanely fast, thanks to lots of prepping […]

www.curbsideclassic.com

No 60's cars could compete against modern cars. Not only in power, they didn't handle shit. My 68 Barracuda 340 Formula S was slow, 68 Charger with 383 auto was faster and the 72 Challenger was improved to switch over with changing the bias tires to the Manhandler radials. Adjusting the torque suspension to get some cambers also had cornering a bit.

 

[Booger Ray]

I like gloss black in the engine compartment too.

If you're actually going to drive the car anyway. Trailer queens? Meh. Could be lime green for all I care!

View attachment 942471 View attachment 942472

Felpro Blue is my color of choice.

 

[rrrr]

Thanks for bumping this thread, i'll play.....

Modern muscle cars spank the shit out of old ones, "stock for stock"....but are nowhere near as fun.

Putting big power in an older vehicle is a visceral experience - much lighter, less isolation from the road and wind, and the "i built this shit myself factor" adds a death defying kick to it lol. I'ts what makes me build the old stuff.....that and It reminds me of my dad.

I have my wifes Jeep torn apart for a remodel right now, so she has my truck and that has forced me into daily driving this for the past month.....

4 weeks of daily driver duty so far, just hit 1000 miles on the build. No issues save for having to re-do the line to the oil pressure gauge, and work thru some fine tuning.

'67 Camino
LS3 / 4L65 swap
Yank 3600 lockup converter
3.73 Posi
230/234 @ .050" .600 .600 114LSA cam
C5R timing chain, LS2 damper
BTR dual springs
1 7/8" long tubes with 18" collectors
Underdrive pulley
LS7 4" MAF
E38 / T42 GM controllers, stand alone harness
Tanks Inc fuel tank, 400 Walbro (for future boost...)

3 Chamber flowmasters which are choking power but keep it sleeper quiet.......

15mpg city / 27 highway

3230lbs with the floor mats, 1/2 tank of fuel, and a 5lb extinguisher under the seat

Father son build

You couldn't find a bigger cam?

 

[Bigbore500r]

You couldn't find a bigger cam?

When the heads flow 300CFM @ .600, only feeding 364ci......you don't need a bigger cam!

Anything larger than 230 on the intake just shifts the powerband farther and farther beyond 7,000rpm. Right now it's a powerhouse between 3000-7000, peak HP is closer to 6700 but that's due to the stock intake manifold's runner length. Swapping to a short runner holley carries the peak further upwind, but again, at the expense of overall torque curve. It's hard to beat the stock intake for a street / strip setup.

 

[rrrr]

When the heads flow 300CFM @ .600, only feeding 364ci......you don't need a bigger cam!

Anything larger than 230 on the intake just shifts the powerband farther and farther beyond 7,000rpm. Right now it's a powerhouse between 3000-7000, peak HP is closer to 6700 but that's due to the stock intake manifold's runner length. Swapping to a short runner holley carries the peak further upwind, but again, at the expense of overall torque curve. It's hard to beat the stock intake for a street / strip setup.

Just funnin' ya.

 

[4Waters]

Sports cars from yesterday

Sports cars today

 

[pronstar]

When I bought this car in 1994 it had 46,000 miles on it with original paint and interior. It still had the original mufflers and tailpipes. When I sold it to a close friend in 2011 it had 49,000 miles on it. Today it has about 52,000 miles and is still in 100% original condition with the original black and yellow plates and plate frames from Balestra Pontiac in Redwood City. Ram Air III 4spd, 355 posi. I have right of first refusal on it but I know it’s worth in the 100K range now. View attachment 1234468

My first real job was with a company called AMCI, and it was founded/owned by Jim Wangers, “the godfather of the GTO”

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/jim-wangers-godfather-of-the-gto-passed/

 

[Shlbyntro]

My first real job was with a company called AMCI, and it was founded/owned by Jim Wangers, “the godfather of the GTO”

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/jim-wangers-godfather-of-the-gto-passed/

I thought John Delorean was the father of the GTO

 

[Warlock1]

Wife's 68 Retso

View attachment 919802

View attachment 919803

Something I dream about building everyday

 

[Flying_Lavey]

My first real job was with a company called AMCI, and it was founded/owned by Jim Wangers, “the godfather of the GTO”

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/jim-wangers-godfather-of-the-gto-passed/

I thought John Delorean was the father of the GTO

Yeah, DeLorean was the designer of the GTO (not sure what his title was at the time), at least that's what all the official GM stuff says.

 

[pronstar]

I thought John Delorean was the father of the GTO

Yup, Jim was DeLorean’s marketing/ad guy…hence “godfather”

Jim had an unreal fleet of cars, I got to drive quite a few.

His collection was sold/auctioned off over the last few years.

Here’s a very small sliver of it:

The Jim Wangers Collection

The Jim Wangers Collection

www.mecum.com

 

[ChevelleSB406]

Thanks for bumping this thread, i'll play.....

Modern muscle cars spank the shit out of old ones, "stock for stock"....but are nowhere near as fun.

Putting big power in an older vehicle is a visceral experience - much lighter, less isolation from the road and wind, and the "i built this shit myself factor" adds a death defying kick to it lol. I'ts what makes me build the old stuff.....that and It reminds me of my dad.

I have my wifes Jeep torn apart for a remodel right now, so she has my truck and that has forced me into daily driving this for the past month.....

4 weeks of daily driver duty so far, just hit 1000 miles on the build. No issues save for having to re-do the line to the oil pressure gauge, and work thru some fine tuning.

'67 Camino
LS3 / 4L65 swap
Yank 3600 lockup converter
3.73 Posi
230/234 @ .050" .600 .600 114LSA cam
C5R timing chain, LS2 damper
BTR dual springs
1 7/8" long tubes with 18" collectors
Underdrive pulley
LS7 4" MAF
E38 / T42 GM controllers, stand alone harness
Tanks Inc fuel tank, 400 Walbro (for future boost...)

3 Chamber flowmasters which are choking power but keep it sleeper quiet.......

15mpg city / 27 highway

3230lbs with the floor mats, 1/2 tank of fuel, and a 5lb extinguisher under the seat

Father son build

My chevelle is running through a 3" x pipe (built in the 90's bad ass back then) with 3 chamber flows. I have them flanged so I can unbolt them at the track, but never have, I wonder how much time I am losing with them on. 11.59 @118 3500 lbs with me in it. I am going to be redoing a bunch of stuff on it soon hopefully and need to get it back out there. I have never tuned it really, and really really want to get in the 10's in full trim and 91 octane, iron heads, naturally aspirate small block stuff . I should probably go on a diet myself to help the cause.

 

[4Waters]

My chevelle is running through a 3" x pipe (built in the 90's bad ass back then) with 3 chamber flows. I have them flanged so I can unbolt them at the track, but never have, I wonder how much time I am losing with them on. 11.59 @118 3500 lbs with me in it. I am going to be redoing a bunch of stuff on it soon hopefully and need to get it back out there. I have never tuned it really, and really really want to get in the 10's in full trim and 91 octane, iron heads, naturally aspirate small block stuff . I should probably go on a diet myself to help the cause.

That's gonna be pretty hard (not impossible) on iron heads and 91 octane

 

[monkeyswrench]

That's gonna be pretty hard (not impossible) on iron heads and 91 octane

That 91 is a killer. But driving it with real high compression gets to be a pain.

 

[4Waters]

That 91 is a killer. But driving it with real high compression gets to be a pain.

Yup, 12:1 and 108 is all it needs

 

[River Runnin]

I need to read the thread But! My cars through those times. 63 Nova, 6 banger dog. 59 El Camino 348 W series interceptor with 3 deuce, 66 cyclone GT 390 hursts 4 on floor, 69 road runner Hi-Pro 383, 66 charger 383 4 on the floor, 71 Stingray convertible…..

 

[pronstar]

That 91 is a killer. But driving it with real high compression gets to be a pain.

Why is that?

 

[monkeyswrench]

Why is that?

Cost A 13.5 to 1 motor gets hungry, and race fuel gets pricey...last I heard C16 was 600$ a drum?

 

[WYRD]

Old cars are cool

 

[240Hallett]

View attachment 1235129

Old cars are cool

Even cooler with covers.

 

[boatpi]

I remember in 1978 when one of the most powerful cars made was the Corvette at 185HP, we all thought fast cars were history. Now my 4 Door 2023 Hellcat Charger has 807HP, with a top speed of 202 MPH. You have to love technology.

 

[WYRD]

Even cooler with covers.

Meh she's just fine..I'll clean em up one of these days

 

[FreeBird236]

Meh she's just fine..I'll clean em up one of these days

And fix that tire while you're at it.

 

[pwerwagn]

Driving a slow car fast is almost always more fun than driving a fast car fast.

And it’s always more fun than driving a fast car slow!

 

[WYRD]

And fix that tire while you're at it.

Yeah neither one has moved under its own power in 10+ years. Going to have to drop the tanks, rebuild the carbs, new rubber all around, fresh fluids/filters and batteries at a minimum. I figure that's a good retirement project to keep me busy in a few years.

 

[FreeBird236]

Yeah neither one has moved under its own power in 10+ years. Going to have to drop the tanks, rebuild the carbs, new rubber all around, fresh fluids/filters and batteries at a minimum. I figure that's a good retirement project to keep me busy in a few years.

Some very nice starting points though.

 

[ChiliPepperGarage]

This debate has been going on for a while now. If you compare stock vs stock, then there is no doubt the new stuff is way better. The thing is though, back in the '70s when '60s muscle cars became affordable to us young guys, we didn't leave them stock. It didn't take a lot to get them to run much faster. Back in 1977 I had a '70 Dart with a built 440 that I had maybe $2000 invested in that ran 10.25's at 120. $2K in 1977 is about $11K now. You're not going to be able to buy a 10 second car for $11K.

I have a C5Z06 which will run 12's and it is a car that does everything well. All of the new cars can be used as a daily and then have fun on weekends but there is something about driving an old car that you don't get with the new ones. I'm lucky enough to have both but if I had to choose between them, I'd pick the older stuff every time.

 

[boatpi]

Chili, great point on how much more expensive it is to run 1/4 mile quick now. I recently saw a post on Hellcat Forums, a Hellcat Charger owner post he ran 11.65 with stock tires, then changed to Mikey Thompson street radial drag tires. He ran an incredible 10.55 in a stock 4 door car.

 

[monkeyswrench]

Chili, great point on how much more expensive it is to run 1/4 mile quick now. I recently saw a post on Hellcat Forums, a Hellcat Charger owner post he ran 11.65 with stock tires, then changed to Mikey Thompson street radial drag tires. He ran an incredible 10.55 in a stock 4 door car.

I'd have to guess that modern tire and brake technology added to old cars has probably saved a few lives, and a more than a few old cars. Suspension geometry on anything from the mid-70s on also made it so much better for "turning out of trouble". Nowadays, stability control has probably saved countless young fools from telephone poles and curbs.

 

[rrrr]

I remember in 1978 when one of the most powerful cars made was the Corvette at 185HP, we all thought fast cars were history. Now my 4 Door 2023 Hellcat Charger has 807HP, with a top speed of 202 MPH. You have to love technology.

My girlfriend's brother bought a 1976 Corvette. All in could think of was "Why?"