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Need expert advise. Smoke after oil change

wet hull

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Need some pro tips. In my last thread I outlined rebuild of my engine. Ran it Easter weekend in Havasu for a light break in trying to seat my rings, wear parts in. My dumbass put the wrong oil in. I put a full synthetic 5w30 in and added zinc. Good news is I have less then 1 hour on motor and swapped oil to a standard Kendall 20w50 for break in. Immediately after oil change I am getting white smoke. No other factors changed. Obviously oil is mixed into exhaust since rings haven't set yet. I am also assuming the full synthetic light weight oil coated everything and is very slippery. Engine runs flawless. All parameters on laptop are perfect.

Questions is, do I just keep breaking in the motor and running rpm varying from 1000- 3000? Smoke is getting better as I run it more. Or is there a way to flush oil out, clean parts/ get less slippery using my oil primer tool and refill? Dont believe engine has got hot enough yet either to full set my rings. I run a cross over and no thermostat as it serves no purpose in way my plumbing is routed. Any ideas are greatly appreciated
 

rivermobster

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Assuming your talking about smoke coming out of the exhaust...

Oil is generally blue smoke, and will linger in the air.

White is generally condensation/water, and will not linger in the air.

Which one do you have??
 

obnoxious001

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I don't believe that heat is important in seating the rings. I have always been told NOT to use synthetic oil for break in.

If you think about how you just built that engine, tell me how running the priming tool can get synthetic oil out of the rings? I think you should run it a little more and see if it continues to improve. I can think of ways to clean out oil, but don't think I would want to be doing it on my new engine. I believe there are also automotive chemicals sold to help seal the rings on an older engine, pretty sure that's not what you want to be doing.

Seating the rings actually involves varying load on them, rather than just RPM. Find a video and watch a dyno test, the load gets varied back and forth a bit for a few minutes while the engine is allowed to "heat soak". Heat in the engine is important to normalize any expansion of block, pistons and all other components prior to making a hard pull (or run on the lake)

You haven't said how much time is on the engine after changing oils. Might be a good time to do a leak down test on the engine and see what sort of ring seal you have, make some notes and go run again. What you want to be doing at this point is continue to load and unload the engine some, including mashing the throttle hard, but don't necessarily let the RPM go nuts. Even taking off to put the boat on plane loads the engine.
 

wet hull

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I don't believe that heat is important in seating the rings. I have always been told NOT to use synthetic oil for break in.

If you think about how you just built that engine, tell me how running the priming tool can get synthetic oil out of the rings? I think you should run it a little more and see if it continues to improve. I can think of ways to clean out oil, but don't think I would want to be doing it on my new engine. I believe there are also automotive chemicals sold to help seal the rings on an older engine, pretty sure that's not what you want to be doing.

Seating the rings actually involves varying load on them, rather than just RPM. Find a video and watch a dyno test, the load gets varied back and forth a bit for a few minutes while the engine is allowed to "heat soak". Heat in the engine is important to normalize any expansion of block, pistons and all other components prior to making a hard pull (or run on the lake)

You haven't said how much time is on the engine after changing oils. Might be a good time to do a leak down test on the engine and see what sort of ring seal you have, make some notes and go run again. What you want to be doing at this point is continue to load and unload the engine some, including mashing the throttle hard, but don't necessarily let the RPM go nuts. Even taking off to put the boat on plane loads the engine.
All great info. Thanks. Since oil swap maybe 30 min. Desert storm was so blown out we just idled to channel from windsor. That Thurs I ran it back and forth in front of windsor, 2 laps and thats when I saw improvement. I agree that it needs more run time and loading. Just super paranoid as this is not my expertise at all.
 

wet hull

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Assuming your talking about smoke coming out of the exhaust...

Oil is generally blue smoke, and will linger in the air.

White is generally condensation/water, and will not linger in the air.

Which one do you have??
Definitely oil but its white smoke. You could see it on my garage floor when I reved it on the hose
 

rivermobster

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Definitely oil but its white smoke. You could see it on my garage floor when I reved it on the hose

Odd. I've never seen oil burn white. Maybe cause it's synthetic?

With that being said, I'm totally in agreement with Barry.

You're running a flat tappet cam, not a roller cam?

We Always used this stuff at JMS with new engines. Added zinc if it was a flat tappet cam engine...

 

wet hull

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Odd. I've never seen oil burn white. Maybe cause it's synthetic?

With that being said, I'm totally in agreement with Barry.

You're running a flat tappet cam, not a roller cam?

We Always used this stuff at JMS with new engines. Added zinc if it was a flat tappet cam engine...

Roller cam.
 

rivermobster

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All great info. Thanks. Since oil swap maybe 30 min. Desert storm was so blown out we just idled to channel from windsor. That Thurs I ran it back and forth in front of windsor, 2 laps and thats when I saw improvement. I agree that it needs more run time and loading. Just super paranoid as this is not my expertise at all.

FYI: Idling a new engine is really not a good idea. Fresh cylinders, pistons and rings need to be bathed in oil. That doesn't happen at idle. 😕

Roller cam.

There is no reason to use a zinc additive then. Save your money! 😊
 

wet hull

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FYI: Idling a new engine is really not a good idea. Fresh cylinders, pistons and rings need to be bathed in oil. That doesn't happen at idle. 😕



There is no reason to use a zinc additive then. Save your money! 😊
Going to just let it rip and get these rings set
 

rivermobster

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Going to just let it rip and get these rings set

As Barry said, vary the load. Fill that puppy with gas and run it! Get it on plane and run it from 2k to 4k back and fourth for hours. Run it from Havasu Springs to Topoc and then let it rest. Do the same thing on the way back!

Do not let it idle whatever you do!!!

Hopefully it will settle down. 👍🏼
 

Fastdadtsmith

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As Barry said, vary the load. Fill that puppy with gas and run it! Get it on plane and run it from 2k to 4k back and fourth for hours. Run it from Havasu Springs to Topoc and then let it rest. Do the same thing on the way back!

Do not let it idle whatever you do!!!

Hopefully it will settle down. 👍🏼
Go late in the day, you can blow right thru the no wake zones up river. I've seen it done!
 

Dcb.blake

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It could also be a issue in the heads. Some sort of valve seal issue or leaking gaskets. Not everyone’s perfect. Sounds like it’s cleaning up it just needs to be ran a bit!
 

wet hull

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Update:

Problem has been located but not fixed. Need to use boat over weekend for niece 9th bday. Her request was Havasu.

Chris at Flat Tops brought the boat in. Did full leak down test and passed with flying colors. Rings are set. Changed spark plugs and checked everything else. Nothing. Next step was to pull my throttle body and put a camera down to each piston as well as look at valves. He also removed the valve covers. All valve seals perfect. The camera showed that I am leaking down from rocker arm stud. Oil is then getting into chamber and blowing out the back. The machine shop didn't seal the studs when they rebuilt my heads. Totally sucks. On Monday Flat Tops will pull the heads and send to machine shop in Havasu. Repair the stud issue and bolt it back together. Sounds like a easy repair luckily. Here are some pics showing the oil leaking down and a vortex like pattern on cylinder wall from that.
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Dalton

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i was thinking maybe over filled with oil
 

mattyc

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@wet hull.
Why remove the heads? Why not simply remove rockers and seal the studs? Nice find by the way
 

wet hull

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@wet hull.
Why remove the heads? Why not simply remove rockers and seal the studs? Nice find by the way
I think his thinking is to remove, have bottom of stud hole welded so this cannot happen again. I did read guys having issues where their sealant loses seal or disappears over time. While off they can clean valves and piston tops. He said my new motor has the carbon build up of a 150,000 mile car. I am amazed he found this. I would never have thought to look for this.
 

obnoxious001

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Most BBC cylinder heads require sealer on the intake rocker studs, no need to do any welding. Rector Seal 5 from the hardware store has never failed me, end of story.

Let me make this clear, no need to pull the heads to seal the studs.
 

79 HUSTLER

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I think his thinking is to remove, have bottom of stud hole welded so this cannot happen again. I did read guys having issues where their sealant loses seal or disappears over time. While off they can clean valves and piston tops. He said my new motor has the carbon build up of a 150,000 mile car. I am amazed he found this. I would never have thought to look for this.
Weld them up?? No way...
 

rivermobster

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Most BBC cylinder heads require sealer on the intake rocker studs, no need to do any welding. Rector Seal 5 from the hardware store has never failed me, end of story.

Let me make this clear, no need to pull the heads to seal the studs.

Is this a factory head thing?

An aftermarket head thing?

Are those exposed threads in the intake port?
 

wet hull

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Most BBC cylinder heads require sealer on the intake rocker studs, no need to do any welding. Rector Seal 5 from the hardware store has never failed me, end of story.

Let me make this clear, no need to pull the heads to seal the studs.
Thanks for reply. There is a good chance I miss spoke in regards to welding. He did mention sealer on studs. I think he wants heads off to verify it cannot be anything else with a valve. Pretty easy to pull mine off which I am comfortable with. So sick of this issue that boating is no fun.
 

wet hull

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Update time. Im fucked!! What would you do?

Flat Tops removed the heads as planned and oh boy!! Here is the short list of things wrong. Waiting on machine shop in Havasu, not the original shop for their final diagnoses and path forward. Keep in mind I paid to have my block bored/ honed, all new bearings installed, crank polished and installed, cam polished and installed, new timing chain, machine heads, replace valves and adjust springs/ change if needed. Explicit instructions to machine shop that any parts needed should be replaced without hesitation. I had a open checkbook. So here we go.

1: heads machined well, wow!!
2: new valves installed but not machined.
3: very light cylinder hone, not enough bite to properly set rings. Not sure anything is correct. Waiting on new machine shop.
4: new bearings show signs of wear and pitting. I delivered the brand new bearings, did they even install? Who knows
5: crank seems ok
6: camshaft shows noticeable wear and flat spots. Clearly wasnt checked. Never should have been installed.
7: no sealer on rocker arm studs
8: new timing belt is the wrong size and loose. They said the one I bought was to tight, even though it was correct.
9: they told me to order standard set of piston rings 4.5". I did what they said but the pistons are sloppy in the cylinders. Need new pistons possibly but waiting on machine shop.

I paid to have everything installed up to the point of pistons. I chose to install pistons as I wanted the ring gap perfect. This was my 1st time and its probably my fault for not fully understanding the sloppiness of the piston and what is "normal". I will own that. My gaps were perfect😄.

So here I am, motor completely apart and at machine shop. Thank god nothing was damaged!! Starting all over in the tune of many thousands over what I already paid. Wife is very un happy and season pretty much over. I sit here and think ahead of what my next move with old machine shop is? Mesa Machine in Escondido if anyone wants to be warned. I paid them almost $3,000. I am waiting on new machine shop and Flat Tops final report back to me on their final diagnosis of everything done wrong. I know for a fact I will be requesting all my money back at a minimum. Next do I request they cover all new machine work and parts? If they tell me to pound sand, then small claims? I want to give them a fair shot to do right thing but that is not involving touching my engine again. What would you guys do in this situation?
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Done-it-again

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I'm going out on a limb as say you are F'ed with the old shop.... They are going to say you assembled the final piece's and must have screwed something up...

Nonetheless, that sucks. No one like to pay for something 2x's.
 

mjc

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Which machine shop are they going to take it too?
 

wet hull

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Which machine shop are they going to take it too?
I will have to ask name tomorrow. I cant remember. I do remember him saying the guy just bought all new state of art equipment and he considers him best in town if that helps. I will report back tomorrow.
 

Dcb.blake

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To me 3,000$ seems very cheap to complete the work requested at least for the area I live. I would of been Leary of that to begin with. Also I find it hard to reason with reusing pistons with the amount of abuse they take. Good news nothing seems damaged and seems to be in good hands now and is going to be right. Sucks to pay twice but unfortunately now days it almost seems to be the norm with all the repair shops out there
 

3queens

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I would call original shop and talk to owner voice your concerns that not all work paid for was done
Bring pics or parts and demand some shop labor $ back
Cut your loss move on
Lesson learned as long as you remember

Hard to find good honest peeps
 

rivermobster

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1: heads machined well, wow!!

Not sure what this means?

2: new valves installed but not machined.

Why would a new valve need to be machined? Lap em in to make sure they seat well and that's it.

3: very light cylinder hone, not enough bite to properly set rings. Not sure anything is correct. Waiting on new machine shop.

Most rings these days don't require a rough finish. That's old school thinking for the days of cast iron rings. The finish should depend on the ring being used.

4: new bearings show signs of wear and pitting. I delivered the brand new bearings, did they even install? Who knows

Pics? Didn't you say you put the wrong oil in it?

5: crank seems ok

Good.

6: camshaft shows noticeable wear and flat spots. Clearly wasnt checked. Never should have been installed.

That cam looks funky from the pics. Again, didn't you say you put the wrong oil in it? Where did that cam and lifter set come from?

7: no sealer on rocker arm studs

Definitely a problem. Easy fix.

8: new timing belt is the wrong size and loose. They said the one I bought was to tight, even though it was correct.

Timing belt??????

9: they told me to order standard set of piston rings 4.5". I did what they said but the pistons are sloppy in the cylinders. Need new pistons possibly but waiting on machine shop.

All pistons rock in the cylinders like that. The important measurement is the piston skirt to the cylinder wall clearance. Pistons come with a "spec" for this measurement. What is it? You size the block to the piston, not the other way around. If they put standard pistons in a used engine, that definitely sounds suspicious.

The original shop is going to tell you to pound sand at this point, since you didn't take it back to them for the repairs.

Conclusion? At this point, sadly, you're on your own. The best thing you can do is call the first shop and be as humble as you can. :(

And pray that @obnoxious001 has the time to take this job on. I have no doubt he can make it right for you. 👍
 

wet hull

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1: heads machined well, wow!!

Not sure what this means?

2: new valves installed but not machined.

Why would a new valve need to be machined? Lap em in to make sure they seat well and that's it.

3: very light cylinder hone, not enough bite to properly set rings. Not sure anything is correct. Waiting on new machine shop.

Most rings these days don't require a rough finish. That's old school thinking for the days of cast iron rings. The finish should depend on the ring being used.

4: new bearings show signs of wear and pitting. I delivered the brand new bearings, did they even install? Who knows

Pics? Didn't you say you put the wrong oil in it?

5: crank seems ok

Good.

6: camshaft shows noticeable wear and flat spots. Clearly wasnt checked. Never should have been installed.

That cam looks funky from the pics. Again, didn't you say you put the wrong oil in it? Where did that cam and lifter set come from?

7: no sealer on rocker arm studs

Definitely a problem. Easy fix.

8: new timing belt is the wrong size and loose. They said the one I bought was to tight, even though it was correct.

Timing belt??????

9: they told me to order standard set of piston rings 4.5". I did what they said but the pistons are sloppy in the cylinders. Need new pistons possibly but waiting on machine shop.

All pistons rock in the cylinders like that. The important measurement is the piston skirt to the cylinder wall clearance. Pistons come with a "spec" for this measurement. What is it? You size the block to the piston, not the other way around. If they put standard pistons in a used engine, that definitely sounds suspicious.

The original shop is going to tell you to pound sand at this point, since you didn't take it back to them for the repairs.

Conclusion? At this point, sadly, you're on your own. The best thing you can do is call the first shop and be as humble as you can. :(

And pray that @obnoxious001 has the time to take this job on. I have no doubt he can make it right for you. 👍
Thanks for responses. Typo on timing belt. Meant timing chain. The engine is at Todd's Machine in Havasu and Flat Top Marine is rebuilding. I am better off making money at my real job and never touching this again. Yesterday was my day of rage, especially knowing that wife would be pissed to say the least. Calm now.

Machine shop came back with path forward and I am lucky. The hone glazed over and its definitely a possibility from the wrong initial oil used. I will speak with original machine shop and ask nicely for some compensation based solely on wrong timing chain and head issue as it caused a tear down either way. I agree they will tell me to pound sand.

Path forward will be to hone block. New rings. My piston to piston wall clearance will be .0065-.007 after the hone leaving me a bit loose but they are confident will not be a issue. They said .007 was typical for a blower application. New crank bearings, new cam, new roller rockers, new timing chain and then the misc items to make it all come together. More labor cost then anything else. Another member mentioned to do new pistons but mine are in great shape according to real experts. They are the JE Race series.
 

rivermobster

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Thanks for responses. Typo on timing belt. Meant timing chain. The engine is at Todd's Machine in Havasu and Flat Top Marine is rebuilding. I am better off making money at my real job and never touching this again. Yesterday was my day of rage, especially knowing that wife would be pissed to say the least. Calm now.

Machine shop came back with path forward and I am lucky. The hone glazed over and its definitely a possibility from the wrong initial oil used. I will speak with original machine shop and ask nicely for some compensation based solely on wrong timing chain and head issue as it caused a tear down either way. I agree they will tell me to pound sand.

Path forward will be to hone block. New rings. My piston to piston wall clearance will be .0065-.007 after the hone leaving me a bit loose but they are confident will not be a issue. They said .007 was typical for a blower application. New crank bearings, new cam, new roller rockers, new timing chain and then the misc items to make it all come together. More labor cost then anything else. Another member mentioned to do new pistons but mine are in great shape according to real experts. They are the JE Race series.

Sounds like you have a good plan. We always used the Comp Cams break in oil at JMS. Never had an issue using it. Try Summit.

Calm is good. :cool:
 

mattyc

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I am better off making money at my real job and never touching this again.
Dont take this stance on it. You made a good effort to do everything right, and came pretty close. It's now experience and you'll be more knowledgeable going forward. The first motor I built broke a piston shortly into its first water test, I was embarrassed and bummed, but learned from it. I think it's cool you took the initiative to do it yourself.

Sounds like you have a good path going forward and are in good hands.
 

wet hull

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Dont take this stance on it. You made a good effort to do everything right, and came pretty close. It's now experience and you'll be more knowledgeable going forward. The first motor I built broke a piston shortly into its first water test, I was embarrassed and bummed, but learned from it. I think it's cool you took the initiative to do it yourself.

Sounds like you have a good path going forward and are in good hands.
Thanks for saying that. I built a few VW motors but nothing like this. I definitely have a good understanding and can only improve.
 
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