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Need help with newly purchased 21ft commander looses control

Discussion in 'Just Jets' started by Matt Dee, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Hey everyone , i would like to hear if anybody has experienced this on their boat and what fixed it!? I recently purchased a 2001 commander open bow jet boat it has a 502 roller motor in it and a insert type e pump , so i get on the river cruise it up to speed i get to 35mph get to plane as soon as i throttle it and lift place diverter i get to 40 and the boat steers to the right and does a 180 almost tossing us off lmao. Even when i counter steer i cant get it to go straight at high speed. I lost control 3 times changing the trim on place diverter and cant get it to go straight at speeds. I did a full 180 and scared the shit outta me and my friend. At first i thought i lost the steering cable but no !! I checked everything myself nothing is loose and according to gs marine my ride plate angle is fine. Any ideas ive had 2 19ft jet boats in the past this 21 footer is making me think twice about the purchase.. I'm clueless I'm a master technician in the automotive industry and have common sense and mechanical knowledge i just cant seem to find out whats going on .. i appreciate your guyses info cheers!
     

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  2. t&y

    t&y Well-Known Member

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    That is scary. Is there any possible way the throttle cable is interfering with the steering cable?

    Owned a jet boat a few years ago and can't think of how that would happen but you never know. I'm taking it that it ran solid on the test drive?

    Snap a pick from the back looking straight at the pump.
     
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  3. hallett21

    hallett21 Well-Known Member

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    If you don’t touch the trim does the same thing happen?

    Have you checked the hull for a hook with a big straight edge?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Riverbound

    Riverbound Banned

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    I could be wrong but that rode plate looks way to angled up. On my E pump spectra it was flush with the bottom maybe a couple degrees up. I would drop the plate down quite a bit.


    Which way is the boat turning when it does this?

    How far up are you trimming up? Are you losing control throwing a roost?
     
  5. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Will do when i get home
     
  6. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    I haven't straight edged it but i looked at the hull meticulously to see if i saw anything but nothing
     
  7. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Its always steering to the right and doesn't matter on trim up or down when i get to a certain speed i feel it go right i counter but nothing steering doesnt feel tight either
     
  8. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    I dont even get a chance to throw a rooster it shoots up like 4 ft
     
  9. Riverbound

    Riverbound Banned

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    I would start with adjusting the plate to level with the bottom.
     
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  10. Riverbound

    Riverbound Banned

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    The red line is the angle of the plate now. And the nozzle, hydraulics, etc could be causing your problem.

    Blue is the line of the hull and where I was always told the ride plate should be around. (A few degrees up or down to fine tune)
    F05BEEE8-F778-43C6-B7C9-45F9578DA90F.jpeg F05BEEE8-F778-43C6-B7C9-45F9578DA90F.jpeg
     
  11. hallett21

    hallett21 Well-Known Member

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    If you were turned say 10 degrees to the left and got on it. The boat would still turn right?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. t&y

    t&y Well-Known Member

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    Wow yeah, missed the ride plate. Never seen one adjusted that high. Does the boat ride high in the bow all the time?
     
  13. NicPaus

    NicPaus Well-Known Member

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    I almost bought a 2000 few weeks ago from my river neighbor. It is missing the skags on bottom. She told me it gets squirrelly without them and needed to be replaced. My other friend bought it and was having trim issues last time out trying to get that figured out then will deal with the skags.

    Post a picture of bottom of the boat.
     
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  14. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Its swirly eventually it turns to the right even when steering left
     
  15. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Gotcha ill try that Im going to test it this weekend on the water ill adjust the ride plate thanks for that
     
  16. Riverbound

    Riverbound Banned

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    Chine walking?

     
  17. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Yeah it rides high and pretty hard to plane
     
  18. Riverbound

    Riverbound Banned

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    sounds to me like fixing the plate will get you where you need to be. all of the info you have given is at least pointing me in that direction. It has been a few years since I have played with suck boats though so Im a little rusty.
     
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  19. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    I appreciate your help thanks a lot
     
  20. rivrrts429

    rivrrts429 Arch Stanton...

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    Take a picture of the intake as well as the bottom around it and post them. Do you know if it has a shoe?

    I can’t imagine the ride plate having anything to do with the sudden turn issue.

    If the cable isn’t the issue, and the rack under the dash is fine, it’s got to be an issue with too much hardware hanging below the boat. If it’s not a shoe issue then it’s a mismatched loader that someone previously was messing with.
     
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  21. old rigger

    old rigger Well-Known Member

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    It's an E pump, if it had a shoe and ride plate you'd be able to see it in that pic. He's still running the stock E ride plate, adjusted completely wrong, but stock.
     
  22. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Will do ill add more pics
     
  23. rivrrts429

    rivrrts429 Arch Stanton...

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    Oops... missed the E pump part lol

    I’d still like to see what it’s doing under there.
     
  24. old rigger

    old rigger Well-Known Member

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    I agree. He's got a serious problem to figure out. Raising that place diverter should be the last thing he's doing if the boat's riding that loose to begin with.
     
  25. NicPaus

    NicPaus Well-Known Member

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    61243749_316837215876883_6765977936915857408_n.jpg 61528104_857978547901037_6211148851823247360_n.jpg 61243749_316837215876883_6765977936915857408_n.jpg 61528104_857978547901037_6211148851823247360_n.jpg Get some pics of the bottom of boat by pump intake area. That setback pump looks exactly the same setup as one I was referring to.

    Found the pics. You can see the bolt holes with green silicon or epoxy in them. She called commander and they no longer make them and could not get them. Was going to have river neighbor machine some new ones. Pics would sure help if you got them. Friend that bought it is her first boat. She kinda bought it as I was interested and talking to her about it. Want to help her get it dialed in. Last 2 trips it had a few other issues felt bad.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  26. old rigger

    old rigger Well-Known Member

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    That's not a set back pump, that's an E pump and there are no skags/fins on the bottom when using an E. Someone has done something to the bottom that's not original. Be happy you didn't buy the thing.

    The bottom of a boat is the single most important thing to look at when buying a used boat and 99% of the buyers I've seen never even look at it until they've drug the thing home. If the bottom has some shitty work done to it, like this one, (and I'm including the leading edge of the ride plate that's plowing through the water) that should be a huge red flag. All the HP, nice interior, killer sound system and doodads bolted to it will never overcome a bad bottom.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    outboard_256, NicPaus and mash on it like this.
  27. Riverbottom

    Riverbottom Well-Known Member

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    Send that picture of the ride plate to Greg at G.S. You mention in your first post he says the plate is O.K. I find that hard to believe. The ride plate and nozzle are usually adjusted to within 2* degrees of one another. I would start with a protractor and check the nozzle angle, and then adjust the ride plate 2* degrees higher than the nozzle. Take the boat out and be careful and see how it reacts. Another tip, only make one change at a time.
     
  28. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Thanks will do
     
  29. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Got a chance to take a few pictures of the intake and pump from behind
     
  30. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Pics
     

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  31. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

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    I had a broken loader do something like that to me. That bottom looks like trouble to me
     
  32. n2otoofast4u

    n2otoofast4u Well-Known Member

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    There’s a whole lot of scary in that whole setup! It’s spinning out because it’s pushing the entire boat out of the water and is washing out whichever slight direction it’s headed!
     
  33. Your ad here

    Your ad here Well-Known Member

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    So I was the previous owner of that Commander. Drove it for 5 years with that setup and ride plate angle in all sorts of conditions and never had any problems. The boat is fine. Spend more time driving it and getting use to it. Last weekend the water was choppy. The place diverter angle plays a role on how the boat handles. If its pointed up the boat gets squirly. If its pointed down it pushes the bow down and to me made the boat more controllable. I would run the place diverter slightly up from the all the way down position when driving. If it's shooting a roost its a bitch to control, especially in choppy water. When getting on plane I would have the diverter all the way down and ease into the throttle. Sometimes would have to turn the wheel to get the boat to come up on top of the water. If you mash down on the throttle from a dead stop the motor will hit the rev limiter and cause cavitation in the pump and go nowhere. Cruise it at 3500-4200 rpm and its a nice ride. Like mentioned earlier, spend more time driving the boat and get a feel for it. If you saw us driving it when we first got it you would've been laughing at us. Took a couple trips to figure it out. Took me about and hour of making laps at Elsinore to start to get a feel for it. Remember jets need throttle to turn. Drive it respectfully and it will be fun. Hauling ass and being reckless will get you in trouble.
     
  34. Carlson-jet

    Carlson-jet Well-Known Member

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    Besides the post above. In the top set of pictures I see a turn fin/rudder. In the bottom set of pictures i see no turn fin/rudder from the rear angle. Does it still have the turn fin/rudder installed? Without any type of skegs at or in front of the intake, spinning out is more likely.

    And I agree with the others on the ride plate angle. It way too high imo. Make sure when/if you lower it is square.
    I've never been able to get my boat to spin out even trying, which was not only scary but dangerous. I can also run my diverter at any position at any speed up to the mid 60's.
    I've only owned this boat for 23 years though.
     
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  35. Dalton

    Dalton Well-Known Member

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    ive got a 21 commander, its squirrely and rough riding, no spinning out though, takes confidence to gas it hard and steer in an emergency situation, my buddy drove it, panicked a little when he had to avoid something and let off the gas, I had to mash the gas from the passenger seat
     
    monkeyswrench and mash on it like this.
  36. Carlson-jet

    Carlson-jet Well-Known Member

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    Could you take a pic of your set-up to compare?
    Back l/r sides and maybe a bottom shot just to get a glimpse of the intake area.
    Matt's situation sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
     
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  37. Your ad here

    Your ad here Well-Known Member

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    The boat is not an accident waiting to happen. Each boat has its characteristics and Matt needs more seat time. I drove that boat for 5 years and never had trouble once I got use to it. I drove it in all water conditions and sometimes like a go kart. When a friend would drive it for the first time it was predictable it would be a scary ride, especially around big bend. FWIW, Commander did the repower and lake tested it a bunch. If something needed attention it got addressed and fixed.
     
  38. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    More than one lol
    I took it off i called american turbine and he said thats only for slow speed control
    And to get rid of it i was going to trial a bunch of things its in the boat ready to go back on if need be
     
  39. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    I understand aaron but i truly think there is an issue me and my friend both attempted a straight ahead run counter steering regularly to keep the boat straight on very calm water again it just hooks to the right
     
  40. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Commander also told me the issue may be having two batteries on one side i cant make any sense of that
     
  41. Gonecommando

    Gonecommando New Member

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    Hey guys chiming In as I was the passenger first and second time on the boat with Matt and was actually driving for most of the day and experienced it myself I can assure you it’s not in the driving style of the boat something is not right, with that being said I tried to get the boat on plane and play with the trim to find the spot it likes to be at and consistently would veer right after 4000rpm no matter if the place diverter was in the full down or full up position. Yes I can cruise it fine at 3600 rpm with the place diverter in the neutral position but the boat is not very efficient in that range
     
  42. Your ad here

    Your ad here Well-Known Member

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    I am Adam. Are you centering the steering wheel and letting go of it? If I was experiencing a pull I would just turn and hold the steering wheel to correct it.
    It's a cruising boat at 3600 to 4000 rpm and that's were I ran it. Above 4200 rpm it's a drivers boat and the driver has to be alert. As for the spin out, with 3 people on the boat, choppy water and above 4200 rpm you have to be careful with bow steer.
     
  43. Gonecommando

    Gonecommando New Member

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    we fully counter-steering the boat during all the times it veered right... also as far as being a drivers boat that may be the case not knocking the boat by any means it’s very clean and well maintained however the last few jet boats we had I’ve been able to get into the throttle once on plane and keep my foot in it and keep it at 60-65 mph for several minutes in all sorts of conditions also to clarify the last time the boat veered right it was on absolutely smooth water coming back from pirates cove
     
  44. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    Ride plate will be adjusted i have looked at many boats and compared the ride plate is way too high i will adjust and check i believe the ride plate will correct majority of the issues based on the fact that the water would most likely slam into the place diverter controls and make the boat veer right because pump sits too deep in the water like River bound said makes sense we will see sunday !! Fingers crossed
     
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  45. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like Aaron should go for a "spin" and see what's up since he knows the boat and had no problems with it over the years he owned it. Personally I wouldn't want a boat that performs as described even when it's right.
     
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  46. Carlson-jet

    Carlson-jet Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, I'm not getting in some pissing match with anyone trying to help get an issue straightened out. I just don't want to read someone got pitched out into the drink. :cool:
     
  47. Matt Dee

    Matt Dee Active Member

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    We are all here to help each other figure out issues , i appreciate everybody’s input. This is a boat i don't know them as well as i do diesel trucks and the Automotive field in general. I'm in no way calling anybody out on a bad sale or anything i bought the boat fair and square its a used boat everybody is used to using one however way comfortable i just wanna be able to throw a big roost and be able to do what it is capable of doing with a 502 hint i like adrenaline!!
     
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  48. Your ad here

    Your ad here Well-Known Member

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    Aaron is my brother... we both owned the boat. I am Adam... says in my signature.
     
  49. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha.. I'm really curious what would happen with one of you behind the wheel since you know the boat so well. It could be something simple and he is on his way. Doesn't sound like the setup has changed since you owned it
     
  50. RACER J

    RACER J Well-Known Member

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    I had a ultra with an insert pump that was unpredictable as hell, mine pulled mostly to the left and got worse when you let off the gas. Hopefully you find something adjusting the ride plate, mine was just because the insert set up sucked!!
     

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